Assisted suicide

[DMB]

Good article here by A.C. Grayling

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article6005023.ece

Those who talk of the “sanctity of life” make a fundamental mistake: it is not mere quantity of life that matters, but its quality; and since dying is a living act, the quality of experience at the end of life, or in conditions of incurable distress, is the overriding consideration. To believe that mere length of existence, however unbearable and painful, trumps the kindness of granting someone's request for help to end their suffering easily and quickly, is to have one's priorities utterly wrong...

...It is important to emphasise two things. The first is that the option of having help to die when in an unbearable and irremediable situation - suffering pain, suffocation because of inability to swallow, the indignity of incontinence, utter helplessness, reliance on selfhood-diminishing drugs, and the like - and when one has requested that help while mentally competent and with a settled resolution, is a human right that ought to be respected.

The second is that very few of us will ever ask for help to die, because most of us will prefer to live as long as possible, and to fight the diseases and incapacities that come with age. Physician-assisted suicide, if made law along the lines of Lord Joffe's bill, will require a settled determination by the sufferer, properly checked and verified.

[Worldtraveller]

A-fucking-men. I'd like to see laws like that passed in every state of the US.

Not likely to happen any times soon though. :(

[dancer_rnb]

What if the person is having lucid moments when they want to die, but other times is obviously suffering from dementia.?

This is not a hypothetical question. Personal experience with a family member.

[Danhalen]

What if the person is having lucid moments when they want to die, but other times is obviously suffering from dementia.?

This is not a hypothetical question. Personal experience with a family member.I'd say we ought to honor the lucid moments.

[Lisa0315]

I believe that all life is precious. I am against abortion, assisted suicide, and capital punishment. That said, there may be times when the suffering is so great that the death of an individual is a mercy. Whether or not human beings have the capacity to make these kinds of decisions, I am reluctant to agree except in the most extreme cases.

Do we kill a Dahmler? Probably should.
Do we force a terminally ill person to go though the entire disease or allow them to die earlier? Harder for me to say
Do we abort babies? I am strongly against abortion. Y'all know that but I have a great deal of sympathy for those who are driven to it out of a sense of desperation.

Lisa

[dancer_rnb]

It is a great strain to care for someone who is essentially dying by inches.
It can lead to a double suicide, of which there are apparently more in this country than people realize.

[Ronin]

I believe that all life is precious. I am against abortion, assisted suicide, and capital punishment. That said, there may be times when the suffering is so great that the death of an individual is a mercy. Whether or not human beings have the capacity to make these kinds of decisions, I am reluctant to agree except in the most extreme cases.

Do we kill a Dahmler? Probably should.
Do we force a terminally ill person to go though the entire disease or allow them to die earlier? Harder for me to say
Do we abort babies? I am strongly against abortion. Y'all know that but I have a great deal of sympathy for those who are driven to it out of a sense of desperation.

Lisa

All life may be precious, but it is also delicious and is capable of destroying other life.

I don't eat as many animals (life) as I used to, but I will to survive or help other humans to survive.

Conscious human life is, in my view, a cherished, valuable and a wonderfully unique condition in this vast universe.

That said, I agree that it should be a personal choice (albeit despairing and difficult) if the quality of life has reached a critical level for the one living and suffering.

I will not hesitate to kill another human if all other options have been exhausted and other lives are at stake.

I am against the intentional killing of securely warehoused folk who no longer pose a threat (with exceptions).

I am pro-choice with regard to human potential cellular life and human actual personhood because there are far too many personal variables for there to be an absolute or legislative decree regarding the "greater good".

Dahmer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Dahmer) became a baptized born-again Christian in prison and was beaten severely by a fellow inmate, Christopher Scarver (an action he described as an "act of God") and died in an ambulance on the way to the hospital.

[Garnet]

Note place and time. I'm going to use the "b" word.

I believe that choices about living, dying and quality of life belong to the individual as long as they are capable of making them. I also believe in honoring the choices of my loved ones in those matters whether I agree with them or not. My father made choices to not have surgeries or chemo for his cancer. He made the choice not to be resuscitated when his heart failed. But he also made the choice not to suicide even though he knew full well that had he chosen suicide, my mother and I would have helped him carry that out.

If I face the same kind of cancer when I am older, I will very likely make choices similar to my father, with one exception. When the pain and debilitation gets to a certain point, I will take my own life.

[Danhalen]

I believe that all life is precious. I am against abortion, assisted suicide, and capital punishment. That said, there may be times when the suffering is so great that the death of an individual is a mercy. Whether or not human beings have the capacity to make these kinds of decisions, I am reluctant to agree except in the most extreme cases.Putting aside abortion and capital punishment, what is the reasoning for being against someone deciding they no longer want to live? How does your conception of life being precious outweigh the conception of a person who no longer feels his life is precious? What does it even mean to say life is precious?

[Lisa0315]

I believe that all life is precious. I am against abortion, assisted suicide, and capital punishment. That said, there may be times when the suffering is so great that the death of an individual is a mercy. Whether or not human beings have the capacity to make these kinds of decisions, I am reluctant to agree except in the most extreme cases.Putting aside abortion and capital punishment, what is the reasoning for being against someone deciding they no longer want to live? How does your conception of life being precious outweigh the conception of a person who no longer feels his life is precious? What does it even mean to say life is precious?

My belief is that God gives and takes life. We do not know in what capacity our lives will be changed for better or worse by the birth or death of a person. Human beings cannot see all the possible consequences of life and death and should not make decisions to that effect. That is, in a perfect world.

Yet, we do not live in a perfect world. I understand that life and death decisions have to be made by human beings, whether it is to go to war, execute a heinous criminal, abort an unwanted child, or assist a dying person into a quicker death to avoid additional suffering.

So, while I can easily say we shouldn't, that doesn't mean that I do not understand when we do.

Lisa

[Danhalen]

Whether or not God gives and takes life has no impact on whether or not I want life.

[DMB]

The thing is, Lisa, that your views will inform whatever choices you make, and that is your right. But what justification is there for your views and those of others who share them interfering with the rights and choices of others who do nor agree with you?

If I want help to an easy death, what right do you have to deny it to me? And how far do you take your principles? If you have an old, sick and suffering cat or dog, would you deny it an easy death?

[Lisa0315]

The thing is, Lisa, that your views will inform whatever choices you make, and that is your right. But what justification is there for your views and those of others who share them interfering with the rights and choices of others who do nor agree with you?

If I want help to an easy death, what right do you have to deny it to me? And how far do you take your principles? If you have an old, sick and suffering cat or dog, would you deny it an easy death?

Did I say anything about taking away your rights? Nope. I said that it was what I believed and that I also understood why and when those decisions that oppose my beliefs were made.

Lisa

[Worldtraveller]

So does your 'all life' extend to non-human life? If so, you might want to rephrase your stance a bit.

It might seem like nitpicking, but there's a point to it. It's easy to say 'I believe all life is precious', but when it comes down to it, I have yet to meet a single individual who actually has thought it through, and what they really mean is that their life, and those close to them, or at best, all human life.

Thinking about it further, pose some choices to yourself about where you draw the line. For instance, killing in self defense or defense of a loved one? Howabout killing an otherwise innocent human whom you pretty much know is in an incurable state & great pain? Howabout someone whom you know that tried unsuccessfully to kill themselves, but was probably not ever going to recover?

There are many scenarios that would probably strain your 'all life' stance. Just something to think about.

[DMB]

My apology. I wasn't sure where you stood.If you read the article you will see that there is consistent popular support in Britain for allowing assisted suicide (at around the 80% level) and this has been true for decades. But every time a bill comes up in Parliament to enable it, it is defeated by Christian opposition.

[Ronin]

My belief is that God gives and takes life. We do not know in what capacity our lives will be changed for better or worse by the birth or death of a person. Human beings cannot see all the possible consequences of life and death and should not make decisions to that effect. That is, in a perfect world.

Yet, we do not live in a perfect world. I understand that life and death decisions have to be made by human beings, whether it is to go to war, execute a heinous criminal, abort an unwanted child, or assist a dying person into a quicker death to avoid additional suffering.

So, while I can easily say we shouldn't, that doesn't mean that I do not understand when we do.

Lisa

This has always seemed to be such a tortured explanation, in my view, because it is founded upon the conflicting claims that a deity provides free will, yet is also the sole arbiter over life and death and when it is "good".

Not to mention how a human religious adherents can claim to be flawed in the ability to attain full knowledge, yet believe that they "know" what a deity wants in terms of life or death.

If "the plan" has already calculated an algorithm allowing for full and complete culpability for our own individual decisions and every potential, then there is no reason to be against any human behavior at all.

"Perfection" notwithstanding.

[Lisa0315]

So does your 'all life' extend to non-human life? If so, you might want to rephrase your stance a bit.

It might seem like nitpicking, but there's a point to it. It's easy to say 'I believe all life is precious', but when it comes down to it, I have yet to meet a single individual who actually has thought it through, and what they really mean is that their life, and those close to them, or at best, all human life.

Thinking about it further, pose some choices to yourself about where you draw the line. For instance, killing in self defense or defense of a loved one? Howabout killing an otherwise innocent human whom you pretty much know is in an incurable state & great pain? Howabout someone whom you know that tried unsuccessfully to kill themselves, but was probably not ever going to recover?

There are many scenarios that would probably strain your 'all life' stance. Just something to think about.

All life is precious does not mean that I do not place moral values on those lives. The lives of my children are more precious than my own life or the life of my husband. The life of a victim is more precious than the life of a perpetrator, but taking the life of a murderer does not bring the life of the victim back. Instead, maintaining the life of that murderer may have an impact that we cannot foresee.

The life of my retarded cousin by many people's standards reduced the quality of life of her parents. For 21 years they cared for an infant and that infant was in an adult sized body when she died. Yet, to them, she was the greatest joy they ever had. She was not supposed to live past age three. They were told to institutionalize her. Today, they would know of the severity of her condition before she was born, and would be advised to abort her. Yet, had she died earlier, been institutionalized, or aborted, there would have been a loss to this world. My cousin did not know how to do anything except love with a purity that cannot be compared to anything, not even the love of God. It was that special, and that is why I say that all life is precious.

I am not telling anyone how they should live or die, but simply stating my personal belief and why.

I believe in God and therefore submit the authority over life and death to him. That does not imply in any way that I am without compassion for those who would take their own life. How could I? I came very close to killing myself once, and that experience also confirms my belief that life is precious. My life is precious and so is every other tortured soul out there. I do not judge anyone who takes life, whether their own or anothers, whether done out of mercy or out of hatred. I simply say that life is precious. It has value, and sometimes we cannot see that value, not from the perspective of how our life impacts others.

Lisa

[Ronin]

Which should very much still allow for a deep and abiding acceptance of the personal individual choice over life and death issues based upon relative quality of life issues.

Your family made choices for themselves.

I am against abortion, assisted suicide, and capital punishment.

I'm curious, Lisa, when you say you are "against" abortion and assisted suicide...does that mean that you would vote for legislation against them or for keeping them individual personal choices?

This is where the rubber meets the road for me.

[Lisa0315]

Exception to my not replying to Ronin:

Hell yes, I would use my right to vote against abortion and assisted suicide, just like anyone else would use their right to vote their conscience.

Yet, as you say, when the rubber hit the road, I voted for a candidate that had a 100% approval rating from the pro-choice groups. So, I am not a one-issue voter. I voted for the idea that while Obama certainly is in complete opposition to my belief on those things, it is not a false platform like the Republicans have. There is a much greater chance that abortions will be reduced through education, alternatives, and birth control than the pretense of the Republicans.

Republicans held the Presidency, put several Justices in place, and held the majority in both houses for most of the last thirty years, and they didn't do a damn thing about abortion.

Yeah, I am still registered as a Republican, but only because I am too lazy to change it to Independent.

Lisa

[DMB]

Lisa, do you eat meat?

[Lisa0315]

Lisa, do you eat meat?

Yep.

[Ronin]

Exception to my not replying to Ronin:

Hell yes, I would use my right to vote against abortion and assisted suicide, just like anyone else would use their right to vote their conscience.

Well, there y'all go.

Thanks for your brutal honesty.

:notworthy:

[Lisa0315]

I like how you disregarded the rest of my post in an attempt to spin my post into something uglier than it is. I see right though you. Back on Ignore you go.

Lisa

[Worldtraveller]

I like how you disregarded the rest of my post in an attempt to spin my post into something uglier than it is. I see right though you. Back on Ignore you go.

Lisa
Touchy.

There's no spin there that I can see. May as well put me on ignore too, since I agree with the point Ronin made there.

And there is a fundamental difference between many who claim to be liberal, but still religious. You still subscribe to the idea that you know what's better for people than they know for themselves. There is no ethical reason to deprive others of the right to end their own life, period. No matter how selfish you might think it is, or whatever other reasons you may think you have, the fact that you so easily and clearly state that you would vote for legislation to prevent others from following their moral and ethical mores says a lot more about you than you may think.

Have you read the Authoritarians??

[Ronin]

I like how you disregarded the rest of my post in an attempt to spin my post into something uglier than it is. I see right though you. Back on Ignore you go.

Lisa

I didn't disregard it at all, Lisa, it is simply standard fluff that didn't change the clear and unambiguous meaning and intent of your first sentence one teensy weensy bit.

[Lisa0315]

I like how you disregarded the rest of my post in an attempt to spin my post into something uglier than it is. I see right though you. Back on Ignore you go.

Lisa
Touchy.

There's no spin there that I can see. May as well put me on ignore too, since I agree with the point Ronin made there.

And there is a fundamental difference between many who claim to be liberal, but still religious. You still subscribe to the idea that you know what's better for people than they know for themselves. There is no ethical reason to deprive others of the right to end their own life, period. No matter how selfish you might think it is, or whatever other reasons you may think you have, the fact that you so easily and clearly state that you would vote for legislation to prevent others from following their moral and ethical mores says a lot more about you than you may think.

Have you read the Authoritarians??

Every citizen in this country does exactly the same. When you vote your conscience for a candidate that will facillitate any law that goes against the social conscience of another, you are doing exactly the same.

Look at what you wrote: the fact that you so easily and clearly state that you would vote for legislation to prevent others from following their moral and ethical mores says a lot more about you than you may think.

Have you ever voted for something or someone knowing that there would be people whose personal beliefs would be hampered by it? Think on that carefully before judging me.

Lisa

[Ronin]

I like how you disregarded the rest of my post in an attempt to spin my post into something uglier than it is. I see right though you. Back on Ignore you go.

Lisa
Touchy.

There's no spin there that I can see. May as well put me on ignore too, since I agree with the point Ronin made there.

And there is a fundamental difference between many who claim to be liberal, but still religious. You still subscribe to the idea that you know what's better for people than they know for themselves. There is no ethical reason to deprive others of the right to end their own life, period. No matter how selfish you might think it is, or whatever other reasons you may think you have, the fact that you so easily and clearly state that you would vote for legislation to prevent others from following their moral and ethical mores says a lot more about you than you may think.

Have you read the Authoritarians??

Every citizen in this country does exactly the same. When you vote your conscience for a candidate that will facillitate any law that goes against the social conscience of another, you are doing exactly the same.

Look at what you wrote: the fact that you so easily and clearly state that you would vote for legislation to prevent others from following their moral and ethical mores says a lot more about you than you may think.

Have you ever voted for something or someone knowing that there would be people whose personal beliefs would be hampered by it? Think on that carefully before judging me.

Lisa

That this is actually considered and then typed without an ounce of hubris or recognition of the differences in our respective views will never cease to astound me.

Further, this speaks toward a certain futility in trying to tolerate those who don't tolerate human liberty, empathize with those who don't empathize with personal choice or humanize those who consider the human family pawns of a supernatural deity who just happens to always agree with them.

I look forward to any and all subsequent defense of Lisa's staunch position and chastisement for my own lack of compassion and insight for it.

Yeah...I am an arrogant, counter-productive, angry, uncivil and overtly insulting of our kind and sensitive religious adherent, atheist. It is me, I can see that now.

:cool:

~ Theatrum mundi

[Christina]

I believe that choices about living, dying and quality of life belong to the individual as long as they are capable of making them.

What do you mean by 'capable of making them?" That phrase always worries me in terms of who it is that gets to decide if someone is capable of making that decision or not. Some people mean mental illness when they say that.

Technically even if it were legal I will never be seen as capable of making a clear decision to end my life and I find that pretty offensive. It's my life to do what I choose with regardless of whether anyone else feels that my diagnosis makes me unfit to decide things for myself. I don't want to die and if I got suicidal I want to be protected from myself until the meds kick in but if I'm terminally ill then I want to be able to end it on my terms if I want to and if I can communicate, I'm capable.

[Lisa0315]

Exactly the same. Why are one person's beliefs more important than another person's?

Do you guys realize that you are arguing for death over life? Do you understand how deeply that disturbs me?

Lisa

[dancer_rnb]

Lisa, I watched my mother dying of diabetes much too slowly. That was no life she was experiencing. She was begging to die, but there was no legal way out for her. I lost BOTH of my parents as a result.

[Ronin]

Exactly the same. Why are one person's beliefs more important than another person's?

Do you guys realize that you are arguing for death over life? Do you understand how deeply that disturbs me?

Lisa

Don't you understand that we are arguing for free will over oppressing others and removing their own responsibility to their personal situation and conscience.

I, personally, am arguing with all my heart for what is the greater good, for what is love and mercy and for what is hope for us...each and all.

You personally do not and cannot know the depths of pain and despair these decisions are for folks and you shouldn't be the one to make that decision for them, in spite of your "beliefs".

That you cannot even begin to understand that you believing that others cannot have their own beliefs regarding these utterly tragic life decisions is hypocrisy beyond compare is utterly astounding.

In short, the difference between my belief and your belief is that I allow for their belief.

[Danhalen]

Exactly the same. Why are one person's beliefs more important than another person's?

Do you guys realize that you are arguing for death over life? Do you understand how deeply that disturbs me?I am not arguing for death over life. I am arguing for personal dignity over life. I am arguing for peace over suffering. If death is required to bring about peace to an individual, then why should I want to prevent them from attaining that peace?

[Ronin]

Lisa,

I've presented this scenario before and would like your insight and answer if you are interested:

You have saved people from within a burning hospital, as you are leaving you hear a child crying frantically from down a hallway. You struggle to breathe through the thick smoke that encircles you while avoiding falling debris and fire and make your way into a lab.

Inside the lab you find the child and look into her fearful and desperate eyes.

As you approach the child you see a battery operated refrigerator with 24 frozen fertilized human embryos inside on a nearby table each labeled with names.

You are weary and can either carry the child or the refrigerated container, but not both or you will also perish.

What do you do and why?

Thanks.

[Goldie]

Lisa, I watched my mother dying of diabetes much too slowly. That was no life she was experiencing. She was begging to die, but there was no legal way out for her. I lost BOTH of my parents as a result.

dancer,
I am sorry. That is awful. Due to a motorcycle accident, my mom had severe brain damage and was in a comatose state for 9 yrs.
She opened her eyes, but "nobody was home." She could, however, feel pain. No one could tell us exactly what she could comprehend, but it was a horrible end to a short life. She was 44 when it happened. We tried to let her die with dignity and end her suffereing, but the Reagan administration wasn't having it. She lived like that for 9 yrs until she finally died of pnumonia.
3 yrs after she died was the first time I heard the news that they had removed a stomach tube and let someone die. That is what happened with the Shivo woman and it's a pretty standard procedure now.
Those 9 yrs were a living hell for all of us.

It is the one thing in my life that I cannot put behind me...the one thing I am still angry about. I know that my family and I were totally screwed up by watching her suffer. This after losing two fathers. It was all so horrible.

I am so sorry about your parents. It's so not fair. :(

[Cliché Guevara]

If God has the ultimate say in life and death, why do we seek medical help in times of disease? If God has deemed it proper and good for you to get cancer or cholera or whathaveyou, then what right do you have to try to cheat him with modern medicines and hospital care?

[Garnet]

I believe that choices about living, dying and quality of life belong to the individual as long as they are capable of making them.

What do you mean by 'capable of making them?" That phrase always worries me in terms of who it is that gets to decide if someone is capable of making that decision or not. Some people mean mental illness when they say that.

Technically even if it were legal I will never be seen as capable of making a clear decision to end my life and I find that pretty offensive. It's my life to do what I choose with regardless of whether anyone else feels that my diagnosis makes me unfit to decide things for myself. I don't want to die and if I got suicidal I want to be protected from myself until the meds kick in but if I'm terminally ill then I want to be able to end it on my terms if I want to and if I can communicate, I'm capable.

I agree and I don't know how to articulate what I mean, really. When I typed that phrase, I had a few things in mind. One was Terry Schiavo. Another was a combat veteran that I worked with who was actively suicidal but when he got straightened out a bit, he was glad he didn't kill himself and went on to lead a good life for a good number of years until the ravages Agent Orange made his life a living hell..then he did kill himself.

I don't know a good answer, Christina. But I'm certainly with you. If I become terminally ill, it should be my choice of how to deal with that illness. Having watched my father in horrible pain and debilitation the last few months of his life, I have no intention of going through something like that myself.

[dancer_rnb]

Goldie,
Thank you.
I still feel guilty sometimes that I left it for my father to do. Not that I knew what was going to happen.

[Cliché Guevara]

Lisa,

I've presented this scenario before and would like your insight and answer if you are interested:

You have saved people from within a burning hospital, as you are leaving you hear a child crying frantically from down a hallway. You struggle to breathe through the thick smoke that encircles you while avoiding falling debris and fire and make your way into a lab.

Inside the lab you find the child and look into her fearful and desperate eyes.

As you approach the child you see a battery operated refrigerator with 24 frozen fertilized human embryos inside on a nearby table each labeled with names.

You are weary and can either carry the child or the refrigerated container, but not both or you will also perish.

What do you do and why?

Thanks.

I'd take the refrigerator and put beer in it. :evil:

[Garnet]

Exactly the same. Why are one person's beliefs more important than another person's?

Do you guys realize that you are arguing for death over life? Do you understand how deeply that disturbs me?

Lisa

Do you realize that you are arguing for a position that takes away my right to choose what to do in the face of a terminal, debilitating illness? It shouldn't be your business or the business of any governmental agency. It should be up to me and my loved ones.

All I can say is that the position you argue is more than disturbing. It's threatening.

[Goldie]

Goldie,
Thank you.
I still feel guilty sometimes that I left it for my father to do. Not that I knew what was going to happen.

No,no,no. Your parents wouldn't have wanted to put that on you. Your father was the right person to do it. It's just horrible that he felt he had to end his own life because of it.
No one should have to be put into that position, not ever. :(

I still feel guilty for not shooting my mother in the head. I dreamed of it every day. But, I had a family to think about. I found out that each one of us kids felt "responsible"... except my younger brother, who was 15 when it happend. I adopted him as soon as I turned 18. (About 5 months after)

[dancer_rnb]

I know Goldie, everyone else in the family would have been blaming themselves if I had done something.
Same in your case, no doubt.....

[Christina]

I agree and I don't know how to articulate what I mean, really. When I typed that phrase, I had a few things in mind. One was Terry Schiavo. Another was a combat veteran that I worked with who was actively suicidal but when he got straightened out a bit, he was glad he didn't kill himself and went on to lead a good life for a good number of years until the ravages Agent Orange made his life a living hell..then he did kill himself.

I don't know a good answer, Christina. But I'm certainly with you. If I become terminally ill, it should be my choice of how to deal with that illness. Having watched my father in horrible pain and debilitation the last few months of his life, I have no intention of going through something like that myself.

I have a hard time articulating what I mean too. I don't think that a person with a mental illness or temporary emotional disorder should be able to walk in and ask for assisted suicide, and for all practical purposes I think it's irrelevant to the main issue. If someone is determined and able to commit suicide they're going to do it and not having the right to is meaningless. How are we going to punish them after they're dead? It's a completely different thing than the real issue of assisted suicide when it comes to ending the suffering of the terminally ill that are mentally capable of making a choice at the time. I think it's a talking point in the political spin because people don't think through how little that mental health scenario has to do with it but it grabs them emotionally. My guess is that people that are both mentally ill and terminally ill will never be allowed to make that decision for themselves because their right will be bargained away to make a political deal if it ever gets that far. In the larger picture of things I think it makes political sense to assure people that the mentally ill won't be included in order to get the right for most people. It takes a big chunk of emotional ammunition away from the other side and hopefully it could be fine-tuned after the fact.

[Lisa0315]

Lisa, I watched my mother dying of diabetes much too slowly. That was no life she was experiencing. She was begging to die, but there was no legal way out for her. I lost BOTH of my parents as a result.

I understand that and I am not attempting to legislate my belief. I am simply explaining why for *me*, life is always the best choice.

My beloved grandmother passed a month ago. This was after many years of Alzheimers, and after my grandfather died from a broken heart. We say that the Alzheimers killed him before it killed her.

I was asked would I vote for legislation that outlawed abortion. I gave a resounding affirmative reply. I do not believe that the mother and father's choice are of any greater value than the choice of the unborn. The unborn have no voice. Someone has to speak for them.

Yet, that does not mean that I am a slave to my belief. As I wrote earlier, and appears to not make a single difference to anyone here, I voted for whom I thought would be the best leader for this country despite the fact that Obama and I see this issue completely different. I was able to vote for him despite this fact because I realized in time that the Republican stance on abortion was nothing less than an outright lie. Just a platform to get voters. They do not care about the unborn, not really. If they did, they would have already done something about it.

I think what is so hard to swallow, the reason why the two sides will never be able to compromise is because the rights of an individual are at stake. There are value judgments being made and those values are completely at odds with one another. A Pro-Choice person values the right of the mother to do with her body as she sees fit. A Pro-Life person believes that the unborn have the right to life.

While Pro-lifers are often accused of wanting to legislate rights away, we see abortion as a legislation against the rights of the unborn. It is really no different, just opposing sides.

My point is that if either side is villified, then, both must be. Or, the two viewpoints can each be valid.

I understand how precious choice is, freedom to live your life as one sees fit. To legislate that away would be in some ways to legislate away freewill. I get that.

At the same time, the part that seems so hard for me to accept is that there aren't more alternatives and prevention programs. Why does it have to come down to abortion at all?

Going back to the original topic, the right to die with dignity...for me, it is a fine line. I understand that suffering can be eliminated that way. Yet, I question our ability to make such decisions, and what does it do to our society?

Back when Terry Schivo was about to be taken off her feeding tubes, again, I was reminded of my retarded cousin. She could not do anything for herself. She had the mind of a one year old. But, her life was precious. I worry that a culture in which life is not precious, so precious that we are very, very reluctant to take it, that pretty soon, there will be new values on which lives are valid and which ones are not.

Too old? Too sick? Too unmade? Where does it end? Doesn't it give you the heeby jeebies to think of the crazed monsters out there who would put values on lives like that? Wrong tribe? Not intellectual enough? Wrong religion? No religion? Wrong sex? Physcial or mental deformities?

Who makes these decisions? How do we place a higher or lower value on human life? Already in this thread, there has been a question on which way I would vote and that has been a test, a value judgment made upon me. How much harder would it be to say that my life has a lesser value because of my beliefs?

How many times have I read that stupid people shouldn't vote. I was told during this last election when I was still on the McCain side that I should not be allowed to vote. What??? The right to vote, it is the American Equalizer. Education, religion, IQ, none of those things should matter.

If anyone here thinks it does, then, they are elitist and anti-American in my opinion.

Lisa

[dancer_rnb]

I wasn't talking about "death with dignity". I was talking about avoiding agony.

As far as abortion goes, it seems pretty obvious that life doesn't start at conception.
The sperm dies then, and the ovum survives. Why no concern about us in our ovum stage?

[Garnet]

I understand that and I am not attempting to legislate my belief. I am simply explaining why for *me*, life is always the best choice.

My beloved grandmother passed a month ago. This was after many years of Alzheimers, and after my grandfather died from a broken heart. We say that the Alzheimers killed him before it killed her.

I was asked would I vote for legislation that outlawed abortion. I gave a resounding affirmative reply. I do not believe that the mother and father's choice are of any greater value than the choice of the unborn. The unborn have no voice. Someone has to speak for them.

You did not simply answer to abortion. You stated:

Hell yes, I would use my right to vote against abortion and assisted suicide, just like anyone else would use their right to vote their conscience.

The main topic of this thread is assisted suicide, not abortion.


Yet, that does not mean that I am a slave to my belief. As I wrote earlier, and appears to not make a single difference to anyone here, I voted for whom I thought would be the best leader for this country despite the fact that Obama and I see this issue completely different. I was able to vote for him despite this fact because I realized in time that the Republican stance on abortion was nothing less than an outright lie. Just a platform to get voters. They do not care about the unborn, not really. If they did, they would have already done something about it.

I think what is so hard to swallow, the reason why the two sides will never be able to compromise is because the rights of an individual are at stake. There are value judgments being made and those values are completely at odds with one another. A Pro-Choice person values the right of the mother to do with her body as she sees fit. A Pro-Life person believes that the unborn have the right to life.

While Pro-lifers are often accused of wanting to legislate rights away, we see abortion as a legislation against the rights of the unborn. It is really no different, just opposing sides.

My point is that if either side is villified, then, both must be. Or, the two viewpoints can each be valid.

I understand how precious choice is, freedom to live your life as one sees fit. To legislate that away would be in some ways to legislate away freewill. I get that.

At the same time, the part that seems so hard for me to accept is that there aren't more alternatives and prevention programs. Why does it have to come down to abortion at all?

I think people glossed over this because the topic at hand is not abortion, it is assisted suicide. They are not even close to the same thing. Also, your statement about if either side is vilified, both must be is hogwash. Or in nicer terms, a false dichotomy. Regardless, you would still vote for legislation that would take away a person's choice, no matter how you would like to justify it. And you would do this because of your beliefs.

Going back to the original topic, the right to die with dignity...for me, it is a fine line. I understand that suffering can be eliminated that way. Yet, I question our ability to make such decisions, and what does it do to our society?

I don't want society making this decision. I want society to butt out. This is my choice and the choice of my loved ones. You have no right to question either my ability to make that choice or the choice that I would make in certain circumstances. What does it mean to society when people are forced to live in horrible pain and debilitation?

Back when Terry Schivo was about to be taken off her feeding tubes, again, I was reminded of my retarded cousin. She could not do anything for herself. She had the mind of a one year old. But, her life was precious. I worry that a culture in which life is not precious, so precious that we are very, very reluctant to take it, that pretty soon, there will be new values on which lives are valid and which ones are not.

Those are not even remotely similar circumstances.

Too old? Too sick? Too unmade? Where does it end? Doesn't it give you the heeby jeebies to think of the crazed monsters out there who would put values on lives like that? Wrong tribe? Not intellectual enough? Wrong religion? No religion? Wrong sex? Physcial or mental deformities?

Who makes these decisions? How do we place a higher or lower value on human life? Already in this thread, there has been a question on which way I would vote and that has been a test, a value judgment made upon me. How much harder would it be to say that my life has a lesser value because of my beliefs?

I want to make the decision. Me, myself, I. Through living wills and plain statements, both in writing and verbally. But assisted suicide legislation doesn't even allow that. I want to be able to carry through on the expressed wishes of my loved ones in the event that they can't carry it through themselves. And I want anyone outside of me and my family to butt out. It is painful enough to face those things without having to deal with possible criminal charges on top of it.

How many times have I read that stupid people shouldn't vote. I was told during this last election when I was still on the McCain side that I should not be allowed to vote. What??? The right to vote, it is the American Equalizer. Education, religion, IQ, none of those things should matter.

If anyone here thinks it does, then, they are elitist and anti-American in my opinion.

Lisa

This is a red herring, an attempt at distraction from the issue at hand. This is not about voting or abortion. It is about a person's right to choose suicide; a right that you would deny by voting for legislation against it because of your beliefs.

[Christina]

I think that making the leap from someone making their own decision about when and how to end their own suffering to having others make that decision for them is another political scare tactic. If we reach the point where our government wants to start killing us off once we're no longer productive we have far bigger problems than the legality of assisted suicide and chances are they'll do it anyway even if regular people can't do it to themselves. This isn't a sci-fi movie of some totalitarian future, it's people suffering terribly right now in our country every day who are being forced to live in torment.

[Cliché Guevara]

The right to vote, it is the American Equalizer. Education, religion, IQ, none of those things should matter.

If anyone here thinks it does, then, they are elitist and anti-American in my opinion.

Lisa

[Off-topic pet peeve]

"...is an equaliser"

"...they are elitist and anti-democracy...


Fucking Americans and their nationalist narcissism! It's so elitist and anti-nonAmerican in my opinion.

[/otpp]

[Jobar]

I think that making the leap from someone making their own decision about when and how to end their own suffering to having others make that decision for them is another political scare tactic. If we reach the point where our government wants to start killing us off once we're no longer productive we have far bigger problems than the legality of assisted suicide and chances are they'll do it anyway even if regular people can't do it to themselves. This isn't a sci-fi movie of some totalitarian future, it's people suffering terribly right now in our country every day who are being forced to live in torment.

^^This.

Lisa, our lives should be our own, to live as we will, and die as we will.

Do you personally want to make decisions affecting your own life and death for yourself- or would you rather have them made for you by others?

We're all saying that *you* should have the right to decide as you choose. But if you vote against the right for such decisions to be made by competent individuals, by that vote you are saying that we all (including you, personally) should have those decisions made for us, by some representative of government power.

Doesn't sound much like freedom, to me.

[dancer_rnb]

Another point is, I wonder if we haven't reached the point of playing god with what we can do to prolong life. Are we really just prolonging dying? Should we just let people go?

I just don't know.

[Notta]

I read a recent report that said people of strong religious beliefs live longer in a hospital because they have more prolonged, heroic treatments than those who don't have a strong religious belief system.

Ahh... here it is: NY Times: Religious Belief Linked to Desire for Aggressive Treatment in Terminal Patients (March 17, 2009) (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/18/health/research/18faith.html).

The patients who were devout were three times as likely as less religious ones to be put on a mechanical ventilator to maintain breathing during the last week of life, and they were less likely to do any advance care planning, like signing a do-not-resuscitate order, preparing a living will or creating a health care proxy, the analysis found.

A study by Dr. Silvestri in 2003 found that while cancer patients listed their oncologist’s recommendation as the most influential factor affecting their decisions about medical care, their faith in God was the second-most-influential factor, ranking higher than the recommendations of their family doctors, their spouses and children, and even information about whether treatment would cure the disease.

I believe I read an analysis that suggested many of the most religious people also felt that God would intervene miraculously and save them at the last minute, which prompted some of them to use the most aggressive measures to prolong their lives.

This runs counter to the idea that God is the final arbiter of life and death, when people are using heroic medical measures that weren't available even 20 years ago to keep someone alive.

[Worldtraveller]

Have you ever voted for something or someone knowing that there would be people whose personal beliefs would be hampered by it? Think on that carefully before judging me.

Lisa
Only in the sense of voting for more personal freedom for people to take responsibility for their own actions (something the republican party has always claimed and never actually done).

Think about it. Being pro-choice doesn't force anyone to have an abortion. But being anti-choice could force someone into having a child they don't want, potentially causing greater suffering for the child and the already existing person. Being pro-separation of church and state definitely does not force any religion on anyone, it only prevents others from forcing it into the government, and having my tax money support it.

So the only sense that I've voted for things that 'hamper' a believer's personal choices are because I vote for things that give me the freedom to not be forced by the government to put up with their religion being supported by my tax money.

It's like the old saying: The only thing I intolerant of is intolerance. Think about that.

[DMB]

Lisa, if "all life is precious", why do you eat meat? Animals are losing their precious lives so that you can eat them.

[Ray Moscow]

I like how Steinbeck put it in Cannery Row: The right to kill oneself is inviolable, but sometimes a friend can make it unnecessary.

[Ray Moscow]

Have you ever voted for something or someone knowing that there would be people whose personal beliefs would be hampered by it? Think on that carefully before judging me.

Lisa
Only in the sense of voting for more personal freedom for people to take responsibility for their own actions (something the republican party has always claimed and never actually done).

Think about it. Being pro-choice doesn't force anyone to have an abortion. But being anti-choice could force someone into having a child they don't want, potentially causing greater suffering for the child and the already existing person. SNIP

Or in my wife's niece's case, an early and painful death because of pregancy complications with an unwanted fetus, after her church friends and family talked her out of getting an abortion.

[Lisa0315]

I just realized something this morning. I received a private message, and then, read Garnet's post as well...My posts have been based on abortion, not assisted suicide. No one knows what they will do or what they believe until they are in that situation.

So, while I still believe that all life is precious, death is part of life, and so perhaps, choosing to end a terminal life with dignity is the correct choice for some. Perhaps that is perserving what is actually precious of life in of itself, the respect, dignity, and freewill of an individual. I do not know, but I have definitely learned something valuable from this conversation.

Lisa

[Ronin]

I just realized something this morning. I received a private message, and then, read Garnet's post as well...My posts have been based on abortion, not assisted suicide. No one knows what they will do or what they believe until they are in that situation.

So, while I still believe that all life is precious, death is part of life, and so perhaps, choosing to end a terminal life with dignity is the correct choice for some. Perhaps that is perserving what is actually precious of life in of itself, the respect, dignity, and freewill of an individual. I do not know, but I have definitely learned something valuable from this conversation.

Lisa

That's really wonderful, Lisa!

Between then and now, where do you stand on this:

Exception to my not replying to Ronin:

Hell yes, I would use my right to vote against abortion and assisted suicide, just like anyone else would use their right to vote their conscience.

Thanks!

[Lisa0315]

I don't know. I voted against my conscience in this last election for a greater good. Voting is not about one issue.

If the candidate were pro-life for abortion and pro-choice on stem cell research and assisted suicide, I would vote for that person.

If the candidate were pro-choice, but was serious about finding ways to reduce abortions, I would vote for that person.

If the candidate were pro-choice on all life-ending choices, I would have to look at the circumstances in which I were voting. Obama is 100% pro-choice on two of the three that I know of, and he is probably pro-choice on assisted suicide as well.

This past election, I voted for Obama because he is the better man for the job. I was able to set aside my abhorance in regards to the abortion issue because 1) there will be more abortions when the economy is in the tank, so a better economic plan may reduce the number of abortions, 2) the opposition has lied since Roe v Wade. It is nothing but a platform, and I would prefer a candidate who realistically addresses the issue.

That said, assisted suicide is much lower on my list than abortion. It was beneficial to me to see that all life-choice issues are not equal in my mind.

I once had a conversation with a co-worker who had a daughter with Juvenile Diabetes. It was back when Bush was putting the ban on stem cell research. I told her then that while I was morally opposed to the idea, I don't know how opposed to it I would be if it were my child's life that was at stake, and that research may be the difference between saving her life or lengthening her life, or improving the quality of her life.

I had forgotten that there was a human element to this issue. It is not black and white.

So, I don't know, Ronin. I simply do not know.

Lisa

[Worldtraveller]

Howabout we ignore the red herring of abortion and just ask if she would change her vote WRT to assisted suicide.

[VoxRat]

... Being pro-separation of church and state definitely does not force any religion on anyone, it only prevents others from forcing it into the government, and having my tax money support it.

So the only sense that I've voted for things that 'hamper' a believer's personal choices are because I vote for things that give me the freedom to not be forced by the government to put up with their religion being supported by my tax money. ...That's why fundies insist on branding lack of religion as... just another religion!. That's why they call "Darwinism" a religious conviction.
I'm sure you've heard the slogan: "it takes more faith to believe in evolution than creation!"

Exasperating.

[Ronin]

I don't know. I voted against my conscience in this last election for a greater good. Voting is not about one issue.

If the candidate were pro-life for abortion and pro-choice on stem cell research and assisted suicide, I would vote for that person.

If the candidate were pro-choice, but was serious about finding ways to reduce abortions, I would vote for that person.

If the candidate were pro-choice on all life-ending choices, I would have to look at the circumstances in which I were voting. Obama is 100% pro-choice on two of the three that I know of, and he is probably pro-choice on assisted suicide as well.

This past election, I voted for Obama because he is the better man for the job. I was able to set aside my abhorance in regards to the abortion issue because 1) there will be more abortions when the economy is in the tank, so a better economic plan may reduce the number of abortions, 2) the opposition has lied since Roe v Wade. It is nothing but a platform, and I would prefer a candidate who realistically addresses the issue.

That said, assisted suicide is much lower on my list than abortion. It was beneficial to me to see that all life-choice issues are not equal in my mind.

I once had a conversation with a co-worker who had a daughter with Juvenile Diabetes. It was back when Bush was putting the ban on stem cell research. I told her then that while I was morally opposed to the idea, I don't know how opposed to it I would be if it were my child's life that was at stake, and that research may be the difference between saving her life or lengthening her life, or improving the quality of her life.

I had forgotten that there was a human element to this issue. It is not black and white.

So, I don't know, Ronin. I simply do not know.

Lisa

Fair enough.

For me, it is far simpler to reduce the entirety of these two difficult issues to one of human liberty.

It is better to allow for personal circumstance, culpability and choice than to impose an absolute by legislative decree.

I'm not very good at dancing to so many different drummers.

[dancer_rnb]

Howabout we ignore the red herring of abortion and just ask if she would change her vote WRT to assisted suicide.

I feel no need for this.

[Goldie]

Most upsetting in this thread, to me, is when people imply that because my mother could not actively make her will known that we did not know it.
We knew her and we knew her wishes. Nobody gave a thought to living wills in those days.
We didn't know as much as we wanted to about her condition... but we knew that her brain waves were basic body functions...and PAIN! Oh..and they don't treat people like her for pain...did you know that???

So, you cannot compare her to a mentally challenged person. That's comparing apples and oranges.
So... because you didn't leave a living (written) will, and you are incapable of doing the deed yourself, you should be left to live in torture...a hell-on-earth?
I think not. :(

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Mqm3bO_pxA

[dancer_rnb]

Goldie,
:hug:

[DMB]

My father died of lung cancer almost 20 years ago. He was diagnosed very late -- he had been ill for a long time but they didn't know what was wrong with him -- and he refused treatment because it was too late for a cure. He put his affairs in order and my mother and I nursed him at home. Hw said goodbye to everyone and begged the doctors to help him die, or at least put him in a coma until he died. This was refused on legal grounds. I considered fiddling with his morphine pump, but in the end I decided not to. This was an agonising choice for me; I had young children still and felt I would be failing them if I got myself arrested for mercy killing.

He didn't take long to die in the end. Some weeks later, my mother confessed to me that she had smothered him with a pillow. She did this from love and compassion, but what an awful thing to be driven to!

ETA After his death I got involved in the right-to-die movement. I feel very strongly about this.

[Garnet]

This subject really brings out the painful stuff in our attics. But I think it's good that we talk about it. My burden with this is that I have always thought that the only reason my father didn't ask for help in ending his life towards the end was that he knew I would have done whatever he asked and he knew that I would have likely gone to jail for it. He would not do that to me or my mother.

To this day, I am angry that he had to make that kind of choice and suffer as much as he did.

[dancer_rnb]

I haven't really been able to talk about this anywhere else.

[Ray Moscow]

It still boggles my mind that we put suffering animals down but cannot do any similar kindness for our human loved ones, no matter how much they want us to.

I mean, after a person is just suffering with no hope of relief or recovery and is only going to get worse and worse, what's the point in prolonging the suffering -- especially if they want to go?

[Notta]

My husband, youngest son, and I were all talking about this last weekend, and when I said that I would commit suicide if I were diagnosed with a terminal illness or Alzheimer's, both my son and husband said they would help me obtain either drugs or a gun to do it.

My mother was adamant that she would rather kill herself than spend the last days of her life in a nursing facility, slowly slipping away. She hoarded pain pills for so long they crumbled in the bottle!

My father died suddenly while recovering from surgery when he vomited his first solid dinner in weeks, inhaled it, suffocated, then was revived by the nurses. He suffered permanent brain injury and had no response to any stimuli and very slow, very small brain waves. Yet, before we could request that all life support be removed, I found two interns starting to insert a feeding tube in him one week later. I stopped them, and asked them what they were doing. Their response was, "Well, we can't let him starve, can we?" My mother and I immediately called for the neurologist and his primary care doctor, and said, "We want all life support removed NOW!" (They had both counseled us to wait a week or two to see if he 'came out' of the coma -- even though he had NO response to pain and his eyes were completely rolled up in his head and he was on a respirator.)

After life support was removed, he lived for about 36 more hours (breathed very slowly and irregularly on his own) before he finally died. I had given both my parents Living Wills to sign years previously, but they hemmed and hawed and left them alone. Luckily, we had all discussed end-of-life issues with them, and knew their wishes. To this day, my sister holds a grudge because my mother, brothers, and I would not let her teenaged children in the room where we talked about removing life support with the doctors.

An elderly woman in the same state after a heart attack was kept alive because her GRANDDAUGHTER (not yet 18) complained that "Grannie" had said she wanted to life long enough to see her high school graduation. Those damned doctors said that "Grannie's" wishes were unclear, so they could not remove life support. I'm sure that "Grannie" never made it to graduation (6 months away) and had many needless and expensive interventions, all because a granddaughter could not bear to let her go, and she hadn't talked about it with family there.

I would never want to hang around long enough for god or any other imaginary deity to decide when it was my time to go. I've seen enough shells of humans who have suffered from Alzheimer's through to the bitter end to wish something like that on my family...

[Ronin]

I am better off that you did, dancer_rnb.

Thank you...and thank you all who've shared your own experiences.

If I say anything more I'll get all stupid and stuff so, just thanks.

[Notta]

Oh, and I forgot to add that my mother (a nurse) said that if the hospital refused to remove my father's life support, she'd pull him out of the hospital, take him home, and smother him herself. She said they had both talked extensively about being on life support while brain dead, and neither one of them would ever have wanted that.

He was very healthy when he went in for knee replacement surgery. With a respirator and a feeding tube, he could have lived for a very long time -- a decade or more.

[Garnet]

That reminds me. The living wills that MT and I did are right around 10 years old no.

I think we'd better do them again.

[Goldie]

They tricked us, Notta. We were all so young. I was married, but not yet 18...my older brothers in their early 20s. After my mother was taken off of life support at 10 days, they were feeding her through a tube in her nose and IV. They told us that it would be "More comfortable for your mother" if these things were removed and they put the tube through her side, directly into her stomach.
Of course we said "YES!" We didn't want her to be in pain. But, after that tube was inserted, there was no turning back.
Nine years! NINE FUCKING YEARS!
FUCK!

[Notta]

They tricked us, Notta. We were all so young. I was married, but not yet 18...my older brothers in their early 20s. After my mother was taken off of life support at 10 days, they were feeding her through a tube in her nose and IV. They told us that it would be "More comfortable for your mother" if these things were removed and they put the tube through her side, directly into her stomach.
Of course we said "YES!" We didn't want her to be in pain. But, after that tube was inserted, there was no turning back.
Nine years! NINE FUCKING YEARS!
FUCK!
If my mother and I hadn't had some medical background, we would have been tricked, too. NOT ONE doctor came right out and said, "He's gone", even though he had NO response and scored almost zero on a scale of probability of returning. And the feeding tube was almost inserted without anyone telling us anything. We both happened to be standing right beside him -- what if they had done it after we had gone home for the night? My father would have been condemned to a nursing home bed like Terri Shiavo, kept alive for years upon years for NO REASON AT ALL. We never did find out who ordered one inserted -- but thank god we were there to stop it. It was only after they removed all support and put him in a private hospice room that SOMEONE finally used the words "brain dead." The neurologist and his primary physician wouldn't even give my mother the probability of his recovery until a WEEK after the incident and she asked, "He's not going to improve, is he?" and they said, "You never can tell! There's always HOPE!" and I said to them, "There's hope for a miracle, and there's hope based on facts. We don't need false hope here."

I feel for you, though. How could you have known anything, young as you were? I was so glad to hear my mother say she'd check him out and take him home and smother him if they wouldn't remove life support. He (and our family) NEVER would have wanted him to remain like that for a decade or more. He was already dead. The shell of his flesh just didn't know it yet.

[Goldie]

Thanks Notta.
Our attorney told us that we could always take her home to care for her ourselves...and you know there would have been an investigation and we would have been charged with abuse of an incompetent person and murder.

I had a small child. We couldn't risk it.

It was horrible. They think that was one reason that I had such trouble with toxemia and having Matt. I was beside myself with grief and didn't sleep during my pregnancy. I was haunted by the thought of her suffering.

[sohy]

Sometimes I think that regardless of which side of this issue we stand, we just
keep shouting at each other instead of looking for compromise. Let me ask Lisa,
what do you think of good, progressive palliative care? I'll share a personal story if you can bare with some ranting.

Until a few years ago, I continued to perform a few skilled home health visits to people in my own community. I will never forget an elderly African American gentleman in his early 90s, who was suffering from a recent stroke along with dementia. He daughter provided loving, competent care, and the entire family was very supportive and close.

As my patient's condition worsened, he lost weight and quit eating so a G-tube was inserted probably at the insistence of the physician, without imuch discussion. I don't think It's really fair to ask families to make these decisions. The emotional involvement leaves them irrational and conflicted. And why should someone be forced by an outsider to suffer needlessly? But I digress.

Almost every time I stepped out of my car, I'd hear the same chant. Loud and clear coming from my patient's room.

"Lordy, lordy, lordy....Jeeeesus, jeesus, jesus, jesus, jesus, help me help me.....please take me lordy, please take me take me take me.

I'd take a deep breath and knock on the door. Once inside the house, the daughter and I might engage in a little gallow's humor, and then I'd begin my work. I resented whoever did this to him. How dare they?

Put yourself in his place. You're totally dependent on someone else to feed you through a tube that goes through a hole in your belly, while your pissing through another tube coming out of your penis. You're lying in a small bed with side rails, you soil yourself and someone has to clean the shit off your ass, your skin breaks down leaving only foul smelling rotting flesh, flesh that must be painfully cleansed and dressed. Perhps worst of all you can never leave that room. Occasionally they have enough help to put you in this big sling ( Hoyer Lift ) and hoist you into a chair for an hour or two. It's terrifies you. You have lost every sense of privacy, of purpose, of dignity. You are powerless. No one ever asks you how you feel about all of htis. Sure, you suffer cognitively, but you still know enough to call out for your god to get you out of there.

This could have been prevented if we stopped believing that even the most miserable, meaningless, painful life must be prolonged. My patient could have been sent home to be provided with kind, compassionate palliative care. Goldie's mom deserved this type of care too, as well as all those that we as a culture have tortured and forced to live to satisfy some emotional need in us or belief that some of us hold. Instead we could have provided hospice care, competent nurses, and comfort drugs like morphine and xanax. There would have been ample time to say goodbye, and to come to closure while allowing a more natural course of death, one without so much pain and suffering. One that simply allows the gradual shutdown of the body, but does not prolong the inevitable.

Would you object to making it a custom to provide this type of care to the frail, elderly, chronically ill, in lieu of more aggressive, expensive care? Would you agree that this type of care is a burden to the patient, the caregivers and the community that provides the means for the care? Couldn't we make this more compassionate care the norm, rather than the exception? This type of care is readily available and many of my more recent clients have utilized it. I would just like to see it become the norm. I consider it a type of torture to insert and maintain a G-tube in an individual who doesn't have the ability to request this procedure.

For now, at least in the US, promoting and in some cases mandating palliative care could be a good compromise. However, I am optimistic that due to the huge number of baby boomers, the fact that so many of us have lost much of our retirement funds in the crash, or never prepared for our retirement and we live in a culture that has not satisfactorily maintained our pension funds, legislation will probably be passed to allow us the choice of exercising passive euthanasia. I predict that most won't exercise that option, but knowing one has that option will provide a sense of relief and freedom.

God. I can be long winded when I'm pwi. :)

[Lisa0315]

Sohy, I can only say what I have said already. I don't know. This thread has given me much to think about.

I was the primary caretaker of a catastrophic accident victim. It was short-term, and not terminal. However, I did get a glimpse of the stress involved. People asked me how I did it, and I said by the grace of God.

That said, I suppose it would be a case by case basis. I don't know what I would do if it were my own loved one. Could I kill my child or mother if they were suffering with no hope of recovery and death still far away? I don't know. Just having to make life and death decisions briefly nearly consumed me emotionally.

I don't know. Part of me believes that it is such a slippery slope and one more way to legislate death in this country. Another part of me hears the grief, the torment, and the suffering of the survivors, the ones who have had to make that awful choice or were prevented by law and are tormented by inaction.

I don't know.

Lisa

[Ronin]

To be clear, merely allowing personal choice isn't "one more way to legislate death".

I would fiercely reject legislation that imposed death on everyone just because they were diagnosed with terminal illnesses.

This is solely about the imposition of government into personal situations and quality of life decisions, which is wrong.

Sohy, I can only say what I have said already. I don't know. This thread has given me much to think about.

Lisa, I appreciate your current quandary and really think you are a good person to recognize the importance of this issue.

:hug:

[sohy]

I agree with what Ronin said. I don't support involuntary euthanasia, but passive euthanasia just allows a physician to write a Rx. for a combination of drugs that can be taken by the person who doesn't want to suffer anymore. With good hospice care, dying is allowed to go on in a fairly natural way, with the assistance of comforting drugs. The choice is left to the individual. In our current system, the only choice most people have to to voluntarily stop taking food and fluids if they want to really hasten death. People are taking this option more often, but it seems to me they should be allowed the option of passive euthanasia as well.

While I'm sure there are many times when the drugs provided by hospice do speed death, that is not the intention. The intention is to alleviate suffering and provide the most peaceful death possible.

I've got to go to work today, so that's all I have to say, at least for now. :D

[Ronin]

I agree with what Ronin said.

Drinking again are we?

;)

[Goldie]

Sometimes I think that regardless of which side of this issue we stand, we just
keep shouting at each other instead of looking for compromise. Let me ask Lisa,
what do you think of good, progressive palliative care? I'll share a personal story if you can bare with some ranting.

Until a few years ago, I continued to perform a few skilled home health visits to people in my own community. I will never forget an elderly African American gentleman in his early 90s, who was suffering from a recent stroke along with dementia. He daughter provided loving, competent care, and the entire family was very supportive and close.

As my patient's condition worsened, he lost weight and quit eating so a G-tube was inserted probably at the insistence of the physician, without imuch discussion. I don't think It's really fair to ask families to make these decisions. The emotional involvement leaves them irrational and conflicted. And why should someone be forced by an outsider to suffer needlessly? But I digress.

Almost every time I stepped out of my car, I'd hear the same chant. Loud and clear coming from my patient's room.

"Lordy, lordy, lordy....Jeeeesus, jeesus, jesus, jesus, jesus, help me help me.....please take me lordy, please take me take me take me.

I'd take a deep breath and knock on the door. Once inside the house, the daughter and I might engage in a little gallow's humor, and then I'd begin my work. I resented whoever did this to him. How dare they?

Put yourself in his place. You're totally dependent on someone else to feed you through a tube that goes through a hole in your belly, while your pissing through another tube coming out of your penis. You're lying in a small bed with side rails, you soil yourself and someone has to clean the shit off your ass, your skin breaks down leaving only foul smelling rotting flesh, flesh that must be painfully cleansed and dressed. Perhps worst of all you can never leave that room. Occasionally they have enough help to put you in this big sling ( Hoyer Lift ) and hoist you into a chair for an hour or two. It's terrifies you. You have lost every sense of privacy, of purpose, of dignity. You are powerless. No one ever asks you how you feel about all of htis. Sure, you suffer cognitively, but you still know enough to call out for your god to get you out of there.

This could have been prevented if we stopped believing that even the most miserable, meaningless, painful life must be prolonged. My patient could have been sent home to be provided with kind, compassionate palliative care. Goldie's mom deserved this type of care too, as well as all those that we as a culture have tortured and forced to live to satisfy some emotional need in us or belief that some of us hold. Instead we could have provided hospice care, competent nurses, and comfort drugs like morphine and xanax. There would have been ample time to say goodbye, and to come to closure while allowing a more natural course of death, one without so much pain and suffering. One that simply allows the gradual shutdown of the body, but does not prolong the inevitable.

Would you object to making it a custom to provide this type of care to the frail, elderly, chronically ill, in lieu of more aggressive, expensive care? Would you agree that this type of care is a burden to the patient, the caregivers and the community that provides the means for the care? Couldn't we make this more compassionate care the norm, rather than the exception? This type of care is readily available and many of my more recent clients have utilized it. I would just like to see it become the norm. I consider it a type of torture to insert and maintain a G-tube in an individual who doesn't have the ability to request this procedure.

For now, at least in the US, promoting and in some cases mandating palliative care could be a good compromise. However, I am optimistic that due to the huge number of baby boomers, the fact that so many of us have lost much of our retirement funds in the crash, or never prepared for our retirement and we live in a culture that has not satisfactorily maintained our pension funds, legislation will probably be passed to allow us the choice of exercising passive euthanasia. I predict that most won't exercise that option, but knowing one has that option will provide a sense of relief and freedom.

God. I can be long winded when I'm pwi. :)

Thank you for taking the time to share your experience, Sohy. You make some very good points from an educated point of view.

[sohy]

Originally posted by Goldie Thank you for taking the time to share your experience, Sohy. You make some very good points from an educated point of view.

You're very welcome. Writing that brought back some difficult memories and emotions that I haven't felt in a long time. That poor man suffered like that for more than a year before he finally died.

[Goldie]

Yea...I about wrecked myself taking about my mom.
I have lost loved ones... but what happened to her was...just unthinkable.

[epepke]

This opinion will make nobody happy.

I'm against making assisted suicide legal. I'm also against making it illegal.

According to my ex-wife the nurse, assisted suicide happens all the damn time and always has. It's a private matter between the patient, the physician, and sometimes the family. The physician gives the patient the whatever and then signs the death certificate, and that's it. Nobody finds out about it. No legal types or bean counters get involved.

I like it this way, and I think this is how it should remain. I trust medical professionals in contributing to this decision more than I trust, say, politicians, bean-counters, insurance companies, and lawyers.

I like it this way for a variety of reasons:

1) I think that decisions about the end of life in the context of a debilitating illness should be private, limited to the people most involved, with the person whose life is at question at the center of it. The likes of Rush Limbaugh, George W. Bush, Ann Coulter, etc. and so forth and so on should be out of it.

2) I have seen these public debates in countries with socialized medicine, and there is more than a little ghoulishness and statements about conserving public monies. I do not respect governments, and nor do I respect HMO insurance bean-counters, and with a legislative green light to assisted suicide, I do not think one can rule out the possibility that 100 phenobarbitals to end life might become policy when actually treating the illness would appear to cost too much.

3) Yes, I've heard the heart-wrenching stories here, but I think dying is a serious decision. If you're an individual, and you aren't willing to hold a gun to your head or the nearest voluntary muscle equivalent, you're not ready to die. If you're a family member, and you aren't willing to find a physician who will assist suicide for you today, you aren't ready to kill, and no matter how much you think you're suffering, you might be wrong.

I told you this opinion will make nobody happy.

[DMB]

If you're a family member, and you aren't willing to find a physician who will assist suicide for you today, you aren't ready to kill, and no matter how much you think you're suffering, you might be wrong.


It's not that easy to do. When my father was dying, he was being treated by the National Health Service and you can't just go and change your doctor without a lot of difficulty that would draw attention to the problem and make sure that no doctor would touch it.

[epepke]

If you're a family member, and you aren't willing to find a physician who will assist suicide for you today, you aren't ready to kill, and no matter how much you think you're suffering, you might be wrong.


It's not that easy to do. When my father was dying, he was being treated by the National Health Service and you can't just go and change your doctor without a lot of difficulty that would draw attention to the problem and make sure that no doctor would touch it.

Yes, the NHS is already too bean-counterized in this respect. I have no good opinions on how to fix it, but I wish someone would, because they killed my father. But certainly where there is physician choice, doing this is far, far better than putting in a new law.

[DMB]

As far as I can see the system in the Netherlands seems to work pretty well. The numbers of people availing themselves of the assisted suicide option is pretty low, but its availability gives comfort to those who think they might need it. It's far better than what currently happens in the UK with people travelling to Switzerland and dying earlier than they really want just because they fear being to ill to travel if they leave it later. And doctors and nurse still get prosecuted for helping people.

[His Noodly Appendage]

Lisa,

I appreciate that some wiggle room has been introduced into your position, but on general principles you ought to look at two statements you made:

* I do not wish impose my choices on others.
* I will vote to make the choice I oppose illegal.

Those statements are mutually contradictory.

[His Noodly Appendage]

Also Lisa, you might want to log in and check the last few dozen posts on the CF thread at TR.

[sohy]

Originally Posted by epepke - According to my ex-wife the nurse, assisted suicide happens all the damn time and always has. It's a private matter between the patient, the physician, and sometimes the family. The physician gives the patient the whatever and then signs the death certificate, and that's it. Nobody finds out about it. No legal types or bean counters get involved.

That may be common in your area, but I have never seen evidence of that happening in my 34 years as a nurse. I have seen hospice be very generous with meds at the very end of life, but I wouldn't consider that assisted suicide. What evidence does your ex have that allows her to make this claim?

If it's a private action between the patient, the doctor and maybe the family, how would anyone know what's going on? I'm a bit skeptical of this, unless you can provide more evidence than your ex-wife's claims.

Additionally, most people don't want assisted suicide. Most just want to be comfortable, regardless of what it takes. Some terminally people also just want the option of AS just in case their suffering gets unbearable.

[dancer_rnb]

This opinion will make nobody happy.

I'm against making assisted suicide legal. I'm also against making it illegal.

According to my ex-wife the nurse, assisted suicide happens all the damn time and always has. It's a private matter between the patient, the physician, and sometimes the family. The physician gives the patient the whatever and then signs the death certificate, and that's it. Nobody finds out about it. No legal types or bean counters get involved.

.................................................. .........

3) Yes, I've heard the heart-wrenching stories here, but I think dying is a serious decision. If you're an individual, and you aren't willing to hold a gun to your head or the nearest voluntary muscle equivalent, you're not ready to die. If you're a family member, and you aren't willing to find a physician who will assist suicide for you today, you aren't ready to kill, and no matter how much you think you're suffering, you might be wrong.

I told you this opinion will make nobody happy.

Mom was crippled too badly to end her own life. And my folks were unaware of any physician that would help them.

From what the policeman who gave my sister and I our parents' effects said, double suicides are not that uncommon here.

Your wife's experience may only apply in your area. My mom was a nurse before she retired.

[epepke]

That may be common in your area, but I have never seen evidence of that happening in my 34 years as a nurse. I have seen hospice be very generous with meds at the very end of life, but I wouldn't consider that assisted suicide. What evidence does your ex have that allows her to make this claim?

If it's a private action between the patient, the doctor and maybe the family, how would anyone know what's going on? I'm a bit skeptical of this, unless you can provide more evidence than your ex-wife's claims.

She related quite a few anecdotes. I can't get more from her. We're not in contact, and besides, she's had major brain surgery that affected her memory.

Anyway, the location was Sarasota, FL.

I said that my opinion would make nobody happy.