Forgiveness and Revenge.

[rog]

"An eye for an eye, and soon the whole world is blind."
-- Mahatma Gandhi

A question - can it be proved that forgiveness is morally right and/or revenge morally wrong? We can say that the first is generally positive and the second negative without insisting that these attitudes be forced upon others, but this is not a moral claim, nor is it an instruction that must be followed - We can understand the reasons for revenge without condoning it, but should we always condemn acts of revenge or are there simply times when it is acceptable morally, if not legally?

[BioBeing]

I don't think forgiveness can be considered always morally right. In my understanding of game theory, if there are no consequences for the cheater (ie if he is forgiven every time) then he will carry on cheating. So while clemency might be good at times, it should not be a general rule.

Likewise, unchecked, revenge will spiral out of control, and both players lose.

There needs to be a balance, tempered with impartial justice, IMHO.

But its late, so I may be wrong.

[rog]

Speaking of game theory, I'm thinking truels, temporary forgiveness can be a powerful tactic.

[Politesse]

Justice and even consequences need not be motivated by revenge. In my country, we usually use a body known as an "impartial jury" to determine guilt, and an appointed official to decide upon a fair punishment for a crime if it is decided that it was committed.

[rog]

Justice and even consequences need not be motivated by revenge. In my country, we usually determine use a body known as an "impartial jury" to determine guilt, and an appointed official to decide upon a fair punishment for a crime if it is decided that it was committed.

For the purposes of this thread, I wasn't thinking about criminal justice [as applied by the state] - only because it's been done recently.

[Daydream]

There are some things I could never forgive.

[Politesse]

Justice and even consequences need not be motivated by revenge. In my country, we usually determine use a body known as an "impartial jury" to determine guilt, and an appointed official to decide upon a fair punishment for a crime if it is decided that it was committed.

For the purposes of this thread, I wasn't thinking about criminal justice [as applied by the state] - only because it's been done recently.

I was referring to the game theory angle. It's true that cheaters need to be punished; however, the rules of the game are sufficient to accomplish this, if they are done right. Revenge is neither the only or best means of social control.

[Rie]

It's hard to erase the memory of what another can do to you of a brutal or devious or inhumane nature. So forgiveness is a hard state of mind to settle into.

I think however that hanging grimly onto past hurts ultimately damages the victim. So let go and live your life and never mind the cruelty of others. Hard, so hard to achieve this state of mind but necessary for self preservation and happiness.

[Jack Willsson]

I sometimes bang on about the value of forgiveness but I'm not very good at doing it. Fortunately I'm not into revenge.

[Ozymandias]

I think forgiveness is a very positive thing, although I am not always very good at it. Even if you think someone should still be punished for wrongdoing, it is very healthy to forgive them yourself, on a personal level because it lets you put the unpleasantness behind you.

When I found out my wife had cheated on me I felt very betrayed and hurt, but by forgiving her we were able to continue our marriage without bitterness or blame.

[DMB]

I think there is a difference between forgiving at a personal level -- X does something nasty to me and I refrain from retaliating -- and forgiving wrongs delivered by a whole society. I am in a state of despair about what has been going on in Pakistan this month (see this thread (http://www.secularcafe.org/showthread.php?t=10136)). If you are a decent member of a society like that, how can you cope with the hate and violence being expressed on all sides? Can you forgive? Should you forgive?

[rog]

It's possible in that case that reconciliation without capitulation is the best that can be hoped for - detesting one's own society unless focused on positive change could lead to ruin both for the individual and ultimately for the population at large.

[Garrett]

"An eye for an eye, and soon the whole world is blind."
-- Mahatma Gandhi

A question - can it be proved that forgiveness is morally right and/or revenge morally wrong? We can say that the first is generally positive and the second negative without insisting that these attitudes be forced upon others, but this is not a moral claim, nor is it an instruction that must be followed - We can understand the reasons for revenge without condoning it, but should we always condemn acts of revenge or are there simply times when it is acceptable morally, if not legally?
Imo, revenge is a selfish motive, and it's pushy, interfering with the rights of others. It's known to lead to escalations, as the op points out. The only social justification I can see is that it gives us a front-man against atrocities. I mean, kill the man what raped your daughter, and we all know that man can't rape anyone else's daughter now.

[rog]

I mean, kill the man what raped your daughter, and we all know that man can't rape anyone else's daughter now.

I think this is a good example of an extreme sort of revenge for the first part, but justifies it's self by being for the benefit of others in the second - one could choose to do this without the extra reasoning.

eta: I suppose we could take the law out of this issue by suggesting that we know for a fact that a particular individual was responsible but for some reason it was not possible to get justice through the courts and police; although I can imagine that some people would not consider prison vengeance enough and still want to harm the criminal...

[Barefoot Bree]

Is there a difference between forgiveness and letting go?

I'm a big believer in letting shit go and moving on with my life, as in, making the conscious decision to not let something bug me or control my behavior.

But to me, the word forgive seems to carry some extra flavors, those of love and reaching out to the person who wronged me and getting together to sing kum-by-ya. (Well, maybe not that extreme, but you get my drift.) That I'm not prepared to do for many offenses. I'll let go of what X did to me, and won't let it weigh on my mind, but X will never get that close again.

Have I forgiven X? If not, is there something to be gained by taking that extra step?

(Mods feel free to split this off if it's too far off topic.)

[Ozymandias]

That I'm not prepared to do for many offenses. I'll let go of what X did to me, and won't let it weigh on my mind, but X will never get that close again.


I don't think that means you haven't forgiven them. It just means that you are learning from your mistakes.

[BioBeing]

I don't see "justice" as necessarily having to be the legal kind either. I was thinking more along the lines of "if you keep taking my toys, I won't let you play with them anymore" as opposed to revenge, which would be "if you keep taking my toys, I'll break all of yours." True forgiveness would entail letting someone play with, and take, all your toys whenever they chose.

In the former case, if the other person showed enough remorse and promised to not keep taking my toys, I could then start to forgive them. This would be the most desirable outcome.

The middle case might lead to them setting fire to my bedroom. There might be some cases where it worked, but it doesn't seem like a good general policy to me.

And the final case is might have me being walked over like a doormat my entire life. True, in some cases it might have a short term benefit, but again, I don't see it as a general policy.


But this does seem to have raised an interesting aside: what, exactly, does forgiveness entail? I think of it a process (or at least a sliding scale) rather than a definitive act. Letting go is maybe the first stage in the process; complete forgiveness is at the far end, and may never be reached in some cases.


Finally, in the immortal words of [who ever sang this version? I cannot find it right now...]

'To forget is human, to forgive, divine.
I'll forgive and forget you,
While I'm sitting here,
on top of the world"

[Here Rests A Cemetery]

The system of morality makes me chuckle.

Such bullshit.

[BioBeing]

The system of morality makes me chuckle.

Such bullshit.

THE system? Which one? I doubt if anyone is completely without some form of system of morals/ethics. Honour amongst thieves and all that.

[Pandora]

I don't think it needs to be one or the other. One can refrain from forgiving without seeking revenge.

I tend to think that forgiveness requires actions from both parties - on the part of the offender, there needs to be sincere remorse for the offense; on the part of the offended, there needs to be belief in the remorse of the offender.

Blindly forgiving someone for their wrongdoings isn't necessarily a good thing. Forgiveness implies that past offenses will be "taken off the books". I don't know that this is necessarily beneficial. Circumstances play into it. I'm perfectly willing to forgive unintentional harm, genuine mistakes, and accidents. I easily forgive errors in judgment when they are admitted as such. I'm not forgiving of intentional harm, gross negligence, or purposeful slights. And I'm not very forgiving of repeated offenses.

For eaxample... I had a firend in high school and college who got wrapped around the axle for a guy who was a serious asshole. He really messed with her head, to a point where she sought counseling. I stood by her through ups and downs, even though it presented problems to me. I went through a year and ahalf of only ever hearing from her when asshole was making life bad - she shared her good things only with him. All I got was negatives. I went out of my way to keep her distracted and busy with other things to limit her exposure to asshole - at her request. I altered my plans to accomodate her needs repeatedly. Then she asked me to cancel my spring break road trip that I had planned for months with some other buddies... so that I could attend her concert and give her moral support. She swore she was done with asshole for good, and she really wanted me there to see her play. So I did. But asshole was in the audience, and when the concert was done, she walked right past me without a word and went to him. That was the end of it, and I told her so. That was the end of my forgiveness and my willingness to be her bolster. She was on her own.

Several years later she looked me up, and told me how sorry she was that she had treated me so poorly, and that she wished to reconcile with me. I told her that I was sorry, that I appreciated the changes she had made, and the trials she had faced... but I also told her that I did not wish to be her friend. I wish her joy in life, but my forgiveness was done.

I had a boyfriend who cheated on me, and sneakily spent valentines day with some other woman after telling me how he didn't approve of the holiday - it was an invented commercial holiday. I didn't forgive that either. That was the end of that relationship. He came back several months later, when I was getting serious with someone else, telling me how sorry he was and that he loved me and wanted me back. I told him I was sorry that he was hurting so much, and that I wish him well... but that it was too late. I actually maintained a decent friendship with him until life took us different directions... but I did not forgive his actions.

I have never sought revenge. I'm not necessarily opposed to it, I've just never found myself in a situation that I felt merited it. I'm all for valid punishment - I have no objection to the penalties for crimes being punitive in nature. I tend to think that seeking legitimate punishment for a wrong doing is very different from revenge. I tend to think that revenge is specifically aimed at hurting another person. And I'm pretty seriously opposed to aggression and intentional harm.

[Barefoot Bree]

A female friend of mine told me recently about an experience she'd had with a real loser a few years back. He used her dreadfully, taking advantage of her monetarily and emotionally. She finally got the gumption to say adios and good riddance, and is now happily married to a good man.

The point, though, was that she was feeling pressure - mostly internal, but external, too - from the religious influences in her life, to forgive the bastard. It wasn't enough to let go and move on, learn the lessons and have a happy life. No, she thought she needed to forgive him.

I looked her straight in the eye and asked, "Why?"

"Well, because I should. It's the Christian thing to do...."

"Why?"

"Well...."

Then I told her straight up that no, she DID NOT have to forgive him for all the pain and anguish he'd caused. That is was all right, and she SHOULD NOT be also carrying the extra bullshit guilt she was feeling for not being able to forgive him.

I told her that as far as I'm concerned, forgiveness is something you can give to someone who is genuinely sorry, and wants to meet you halfway; and also someone you expect to have to deal with in the future. That it made no sense to me to "forgive" somebody who was never sorry, didn't think they'd done anything wrong, and who was out of your life for good, no contact ever again. What's the point then?

She cried. The relief she felt at letting go of the guilt for not being able to forgive was incredible. As far as I'm concerned, that - yes, church-instilled - guilt was the worse than the guilt she still carried for letting him get away with his crap for so long.

I also told her that the one she needed to forgive was herself, for her part in the sorry affair. Now that she was able to forget forgiving the bastard, she was able to do that. And now the whole mess is truly behind her.

That's my story of "forgiveness". And I use the quotes deliberately.

[DMB]

I felt so sorry for this woman (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/mar/07/religion.july7) and can understand why she could not forgive.

A follow-up article: http://living.scotsman.com/features/Interview-The-Rev-Julie-Nicholson.6386521.jp

The tape is switched off. I'm about to leave when Nicholson says impulsively to stay for a drink. We sit in the kitchen talking as the light fades. Her future writing. Her son joining the marines. Life. It is then that one of the most truly horrible moments of my career happens. She asks about my children. I say laughingly, unthinkingly, that my eldest is so laid back he needs a bomb under him. It takes a second for the horror of what I have just said to penetrate. Only an expression? No. Ill-judged words are painful and this is a woman who wrestles with language. A woman who has grieved over the body of her child, shattered by a bomb.

Waves of nausea. But I do what people do when faced with uncomfortable emotion. Keep the lid on. Pretend. If I don't acknowledge it, it didn't happen. She might not have noticed. Only an expression. I hear our voices but could not tell you what is said. It must be a full half-hour before I seize my chance. What I said earlier … such careless language ... I am so very sorry. She knows what I am referring to without the words being repeated. "It doesn't matter," she says, eyes flicking down. No, it does matter. She looks at me and says gently: "Well, I forgive you."

That moment brings something home. Earlier, Nicholson had said that the world couldn't function without forgiveness. Relationships couldn't function. Communities. But the word was used to cover everything from playground squabbles to genocide. "There are so many layers of meaning." Perhaps the important meaning is simply the absence of hatred. That is Nicholson's great achievement. Maybe asking more is inappropriate. "I really think," she says, "that it is not a mother's place to forgive the killer of her child."

[Barefoot Bree]

^^ Absolutely.

Every once in a while you hear about the family members of a victim of some horrendous crime making a production about forgiving the perpetrator of that crime. I don't get how they can do that. On a basic, gut level, I would never be able to forgive the cretin that (hypothetically - this hasn't happened) raped and murdered my daughter.

Wouldn't ever happen.

Back on topic, I'm not one for revenge. Like muidiri points out, there's a middle ground between forgiveness and revenge, which is where I live. I rather suspect that most people do, too.

[Daydream]

Then I told her straight up that no, she DID NOT have to forgive him for all the pain and anguish he'd caused. That is was all right, and she SHOULD NOT be also carrying the extra bullshit guilt she was feeling for not being able to forgive him.


You were helpful to your friend. :thumbup:

I felt so sorry for this woman (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/mar/07/religion.july7) and can understand why she could not forgive.



Me too!

[neilstone40]

Is there a difference between forgiveness and letting go?

I'm a big believer in letting shit go and moving on with my life, as in, making the conscious decision to not let something bug me or control my behavior.




I think this is a difference that a lot of people can't reconcile but think you've put it across perfectly Bree.

As I was raised a christian, even after abandoning my beliefs I felt I had to forgive to be able to move on. I experienced a lot of things that I could understand and rationalise, which meant I felt I could forgive. Unfortunately I also experienced a few things I couldn't comprehend how or why they had happened so could never make the transition to forgiveness.

As a result I got locked into quite a vicious circle of rehashing stuff in my mind to the point where it became quite damaging. At earlier times in my life, I've enacted a few reasonably minor acts of revenge and seriously considered one much larger and more decisive action. The larger action I managed to rationally talk myself out of as my motives and intended actions would have been extremely destructive.

Now I tend to think that to forgive you have to be able to empathise with the person or at the very least understand their motives to some extent. If you can't the only options are to continue to attempt to rationalise it or simply try move on with your life. Although revenge is also an option, it's seldom if ever a good option...

There are a few things in life I haven't forgiven and never will. A few things still haunt me and occasionally raise negative emotions but then get dusted off and put back in the box for another time.

Revenge is a very destructive response, the fruits of which are often short lived and outweighed by the negative implications.

As a parent, I have a whole new understanding of the need people may feel for revenge. Despite my generally calm and fairly rational demeanour, I know that my first response to any threat to my children is likely to be quite animalistic and a reaction to them being intentionally harmed potentially vicious.

[Ozymandias]

I don't think I am a terribly empathic person, so I don't think I achieve forgiveness by being empathic. For me, it is more like accepting that the actions of others are just laws of nature. Everyone does nasty things sometimes, so I shouldn't take it personally when someone does something bad to me - they genuinely can't help it, and I should no more take their behaviour personally than I should take bad weather personally. If you expect people to be nasty to you sometimes (not all the time of course) then you are less disappointed when they are.

Maybe this is just resignation rather than forgiveness though...?

[neilstone40]

If you expect people to be nasty to you sometimes (not all the time of course) then you are less disappointed when they are.

In the same way an optimist is seldom pleasantly surprised, a pessimist is seldom disappointed ...



Maybe this is just resignation rather than forgiveness though...?

Quite possibly, but being resigned to people being nasty must be pretty draining in itself surely?

[Here Rests A Cemetery]

The system of morality makes me chuckle.

Such bullshit.

THE system? Which one? I doubt if anyone is completely without some form of system of morals/ethics. Honour amongst thieves and all that.

Just the general concept of morality envisioned by society, not personal conscience.

[Pandora]

I don't think I am a terribly empathic person, so I don't think I achieve forgiveness by being empathic. For me, it is more like accepting that the actions of others are just laws of nature. Everyone does nasty things sometimes, so I shouldn't take it personally when someone does something bad to me - they genuinely can't help it, and I should no more take their behaviour personally than I should take bad weather personally. If you expect people to be nasty to you sometimes (not all the time of course) then you are less disappointed when they are.

Maybe this is just resignation rather than forgiveness though...?

I don't share that sentiment. Perhaps that's why I can just set things aside, but I certainly feel a lot less impetus to forgive.

[Ozymandias]

Which bit did you disagree with?

[Pandora]

Which bit did you disagree with?

That you shouldn't take it personally, because everyone does nasty things sometimes - they just can't help it.

First off, I don't think doing nasty things should be so glossed over. I think it is a big deal, and that nastiness ought to be strongly discouraged. I also think that people can help it - they have the ability to make decisions, and they can certainly choose NOT to be nasty.

Secondly, I disagree with not taking it personally. Sometimes, sure - when someone cuts you off in traffic, it's probably not personal. But there are lots of times that I do take it personally, because the offense is personal.

For example, several years ago, I prompted a workgroup to engage in a secondary round of market surveys for a planned product. The entire reason for the second round was to address a set of questions that I personally had raised, and that were integral to my modeling and projection. I went out on PTO for a week... and when I came back, my questions had been completely removed from the survey, and it had been taken over by someone who wasn't originally interested in having a second round of focus groups at all. When I asked to have my questions put back in - which were the entire reason we got approval for the second round in the first place - I was told that my questions weren't as important, they had already finalized the list (while I was out and with no feedback from me) and there just wasn't room.

I took that personally ;)

[Barefoot Bree]

Did you forgive them? Or take revenge? Or what?

[trendkill]

A question - can it be proved that forgiveness is morally right and/or revenge morally wrong? We can say that the first is generally positive and the second negative without insisting that these attitudes be forced upon others, but this is not a moral claim, nor is it an instruction that must be followed - We can understand the reasons for revenge without condoning it, but should we always condemn acts of revenge or are there simply times when it is acceptable morally, if not legally?Yeah, I think revenge can be morally acceptable if you exist without the benefit of a government that can enforce rules of behavior. Unfortunately that means that a lot of the revenge people get these days is immoral, because they tend to live in liberal democratic societies, yet they create laws with the clear purpose of having governments carry out their revenge rather than just creating order and safety.

Is there a difference between forgiveness and letting go?I really think there is. Forgiveness of a wrong is like forgiveness of a debt--you can't forgive if you aren't willing to drop the consequences. People who say "I forgive this person but he should be punished anyway" aren't really forgiving, I would say. If they really forgave the person they would argue against punishment.

[Jack Willsson]

I once gave a builder some money "up front" for some repairs to my house. He just went off with it, didn't finish the job. Am I supposed to give him some more?

I bought a car that I was told was not too expensive to run. It wasn't cheap to buy and it wasn't cheap to run. When I sold it about a yeat later I got about 1/4 what I had paid for it. Am I supposed to buy from the same chap again? In this case I did :o

My next door neighbour took me to court about my cockerels crowing. It cost me thousands. The cockerels are still crowing. We're not exceptionally friendly but I don't want revenge.

Divorce was one of the most traumatic things in my life - after starry eyed expectations and repeated attempts at "forgiveness" even for violence. I don't want to hurt my ex but I try to keep out of her way.

[Rie]

But is someone does big time hurt to you then for your peace of mind it's better to file it away in the archives but never forget, for a really nasty meaning person won't forget the effectiveness of his actions. It's really saying that don't let what someone did to you ruin your life .. go on and be happy but file it under 'possibly pending'. Be prepared as the Scouts say.

[Pandora]

Did you forgive them? Or take revenge? Or what?

Oh, I haven't forgiven it. Especially since it's not the only time this person has shown bad faith. I don't dwell on it either, though. It still irritates me on principle, but I still work with them on a more or less regular basis, and it hasn't hindered our ability to get things done. I actually hadn't thought about it in a few years until this thread reminded me.

I also didn't take revenge. Mostly, I bitched loudly to my bosses. I also had a discussion with that person and told them very clearly that I thought it was rude, offensive, and uncooperative. I told them that I take it personally - it was an action that very clearly caused issues for me personally.

[Bane]

I don't forgive easily. There are some acts I consider unforgivable, but the biggest one is taking advantage of a child. I couldn't ever think of someone who did that, as anything except horrible.