Meaning

[Scholar]

I was wondering where some of the members here found meaning and purpose to their life. I mean to say, I find myself crossing into borderline Nihilism here.My only purpose momentarily is to find purpose and I've been obsessed with it for months, and I don't feel that existential meaning is correct, so I'm wondering, what is the point to all of this for you guys,to kind of help me brainstorm before I just go kill myself haha.

[toker]

Earn a living, nurture my relationships, have some fun, and leave things better than I found them.

[neilstone40]

I was wondering where some of the members here found meaning and purpose to their life. I mean to say, I find myself crossing into borderline Nihilism here.My only purpose momentarily is to find purpose and I've been obsessed with it for months, and I don't feel that existential meaning is correct, so I'm wondering, what is the point to all of this for you guys,to kind of help me brainstorm before I just go kill myself haha.


Hi Scholar, good to see you back - haven't seen you about for a while.

Purpose in life comes in many forms and flavours. Some people's definition of themselves often denotes what they view as their purpose (father/mother, christian, academic, etc) but it is seldom as simple as that.

Perceived purpose in life also changes. Many of us wanted to be pilots or train drivers but for the majority it never happened. The failure of this hope doesn't mean are lives are over or devoid of meaning though.

Finding purpose in life is seldom, if ever, a 'big burning bush moment'. It's also not often a single 'all-consuming purpose' (if anything those with only one purpose in life are best avoided as they tend to be fundamentalists, psychopaths or simply obsessive).

From my own perspective, most days my purpose in life is to do a few good things, generally be nice to people and help folk out where I can. Other days it is simply to try to get some ironing done or even just to get through the day without really, really wanting to punch someone...

Apart from the perennial hopes of making sure my family is loved, cared for and safe, most other things change or adjust as they need to.

Even if the only purpose in life you may recognise at the moment is the desire to learn, ask questions and develop a healthy skepticism in life, that may well be a noble enough purpose in the meantime... Your questions also encourage others to think - this is also very worthwhile.

Some days your main purpose in life many just be to get laid or wasted - these can also be good learning experiences!

You have an inquiring and intelligent mind, Scholar. Nourish it properly and purpose(s) in life will come naturally.

[Ozymandias]

There is no meaning or purpose to life, and anyone who thinks there is is merely deluded. It is best to purge such thoughts from your mind.

[Eudaimonist]

I was wondering where some of the members here found meaning and purpose to their life.

I find it mainly in making good use of my talents in cultivating a style of being of which I can be proud. I seek to earn my self-respect.

This includes growing at work, but includes hobbies as well. Find out what you have talents for, and do that.

I wouldn't knock such activities as travel and sightseeing, if you can afford them. That can enrich one with new experiences. Break your habitual routines with something new.

And forming close connections with others can be rewarding as well. Closeness is a basic human need.

Don't be afraid to have a positive vision of yourself and your possibilities.


eudaimonia,

Mark

[Eudaimonist]

There is no meaning or purpose to life, and anyone who thinks there is is merely deluded. It is best to purge such thoughts from your mind.

There is no divine meaning or purpose to life, of course. But that doesn't mean that one is doomed to live an aimless existence in which nothing one does really matters to oneself.


eudaimonia,

Mark

[neilstone40]

There is no meaning or purpose to life, and anyone who thinks there is is merely deluded. It is best to purge such thoughts from your mind.


I think FUBG desperately needs a cuddley wuddely...

...oops, forgot that you've got intimacy issues too:evil:

[Ozymandias]

There is no divine meaning or purpose to life, of course. But that doesn't mean that one is doomed to live an aimless existence in which nothing one does really matters to oneself.


You can always set your own goals, but to suggest that they somehow matter is silly. Your own goals are completely arbitrary and their achievement of them is insignificant. Do you truly appreciate the scale of the universe in both time and space? We are the tiniest speck of existence, and nothing we do will have any impact on the universe as a whole. Everything we are, or do, or can be will be forgotten in a blink of cosmic time.

...And I don't have intimacy issues.

[Eudaimonist]

You can always set your own goals, but to suggest that they somehow matter is silly. Your own goals are completely arbitrary and their achievement of them is insignificant. Do you truly appreciate the scale of the universe in both time and space?

Insignificant to whom? Who cares whether or not our lives matter to the cosmos? This isn't our perspective as individuals.

We are the tiniest speck of existence, and nothing we do will have any impact on the universe as a whole.

So? We aren't trying to be gods. It's enough to have an impact on our own lives.

Everything we are, or do, or can be will be forgotten in a blink of cosmic time.

But not forgotten by ourselves while we live.


eudaimonia,

Mark

[neilstone40]

You can always set your own goals, but to suggest that they somehow matter is silly. Your own goals are completely arbitrary and their achievement of them is insignificant. Do you truly appreciate the scale of the universe in both time and space? We are the tiniest speck of existence, and nothing we do will have any impact on the universe as a whole. Everything we are, or do, or can be will be forgotten in a blink of cosmic time.


People's own goals matter, sometimes to themselves, sometimes to a wider audience. Do a politician's goal's matter to you - of course they do as it's going to impact on your existence in some way.

I agree that on a global scale our individual actions can appear insignificant (don't worry, I'm not getting into 'the butterfly flapping it's wings' crap) although individual actions frequently have more than an individual effect... A single thought can grow and manifest into something much larger which can have massive implications.

Even if individual actions are sometimes quickly forgotten, they are often worthwhile and worthy within their context.

How'd you get so jaded or are you just being deliberately contentious?

(PS: The offer of a cuddle is still valid, I really think it might help...:))

[Scholar]

There is no meaning or purpose to life, and anyone who thinks there is is merely deluded. It is best to purge such thoughts from your mind. I wonder then why you live?I think you and I have come to a similar conclusion,but I am not satisfied with that conclusion, I do not believe it is correct, what was the purpose in truth of you answering then?

I was wondering where some of the members here found meaning and purpose to their life.

I find it mainly in making good use of my talents in cultivating a style of being of which I can be proud. I seek to earn my self-respect.

This includes growing at work, but includes hobbies as well. Find out what you have talents for, and do that.

I wouldn't knock such activities as travel and sightseeing, if you can afford them. That can enrich one with new experiences. Break your habitual routines with something new.

And forming close connections with others can be rewarding as well. Closeness is a basic human need.

Don't be afraid to have a positive vision of yourself and your possibilities.


eudaimonia,
I like your optimistic sense of things, I envy it in all honesty haha.
Mark

I was wondering where some of the members here found meaning and purpose to their life. I mean to say, I find myself crossing into borderline Nihilism here.My only purpose momentarily is to find purpose and I've been obsessed with it for months, and I don't feel that existential meaning is correct, so I'm wondering, what is the point to all of this for you guys,to kind of help me brainstorm before I just go kill myself haha.


Hi Scholar, good to see you back - haven't seen you about for a while.

Purpose in life comes in many forms and flavours. Some people's definition of themselves often denotes what they view as their purpose (father/mother, christian, academic, etc) but it is seldom as simple as that.

Perceived purpose in life also changes. Many of us wanted to be pilots or train drivers but for the majority it never happened. The failure of this hope doesn't mean are lives are over or devoid of meaning though.

Finding purpose in life is seldom, if ever, a 'big burning bush moment'. It's also not often a single 'all-consuming purpose' (if anything those with only one purpose in life are best avoided as they tend to be fundamentalists, psychopaths or simply obsessive).

From my own perspective, most days my purpose in life is to do a few good things, generally be nice to people and help folk out where I can. Other days it is simply to try to get some ironing done or even just to get through the day without really, really wanting to punch someone...

Apart from the perennial hopes of making sure my family is loved, cared for and safe, most other things change or adjust as they need to.

Even if the only purpose in life you may recognise at the moment is the desire to learn, ask questions and develop a healthy skepticism in life, that may well be a noble enough purpose in the meantime... Your questions also encourage others to think - this is also very worthwhile.

Some days your main purpose in life many just be to get laid or wasted - these can also be good learning experiences!

You have an inquiring and intelligent mind, Scholar. Nourish it properly and purpose(s) in life will come naturally.

Hey Neilstone,how you been?Sorry,I really don't get on here very much anymore,perhaps that will change. I want to explain properly where my issue lies right now. Nothing seems to have a point to me anymore, I am withdrawn and apathetic towards everything,because like Tolstoy I have undone myself trying to understand the infamous" why". I want to feel again,I want to live again, but I want it be real, I don't want to decieve myself by wrapping myself up in a career and calling that my purpose. I want to truly know why "I" and everything else exists, I need my moment of recognizing my point of life to be "a big bush burning moment", I need this to change my life. I'm obsessed right now, because I need to start to care about the things in my life and this world again. I'm looking for the Platonic Form of meaning really. You sound like a good man Neilstone, and I'm happy for you that these things offer satisfaction to you,and I don't belittle that whatsoever for the record,but none of it seems real, did you ever go through a phase like this when you were younger?

[Ozymandias]

I wonder then why you live?I think you and I have come to a similar conclusion,but I am not satisfied with that conclusion, I do not believe it is correct, what was the purpose in truth of you answering then?


I don't think there is any reason to live. Being alive or dead doesn't matter, but at the moment, being alive is the default position. It would take more effort (physically and mentally) to reach the other position, so I stay alive. But ultimately it doesn't matter and there is no "reason" for me to live. I don't think anyone would really care if I died (other than being annoyed by the inconvenience).

[Preno]

The goal is to earn 1,000 points, obviously.

[Ray Moscow]

It's up to us to create meaning in life. It doesn't come from "god", because there isn't one. It doesn't come from the universe, because it's not conscious or inherently purposeful.

Most people find meaning in their relationships, in doing work they think is valuable, in activities they find enjoyable, etc. None of this can be extracted into pithy statements of "meaning", though.

Joseph Campbell used to say that life was joyous but had no meaning, which often shocked his listeners since he often expressed a mystical awe of "life". I took him to mean that life had no "meaning" that was outside actually living it.

[Eudaimonist]

Joseph Campbell used to say that life was joyous but had no meaning, which often shocked his listeners since he often expressed a mystical awe of "life". I took him to mean that life had no "meaning" that was outside actually living it.

I didn't know that about Joseph Campbell. If you are interpreting him correctly, I think that's a great way to look at life.

Here are some quick quotes from an Internet search:

I don't believe people are looking for the meaning of life as much as they are looking for the experience of being alive.
-- Joseph Campbell

Life is without meaning. You bring the meaning to it. The meaning of life is whatever you ascribe it to be. Being alive is the meaning.
-- Joseph Campbell

Life has no meaning. Each of us has meaning and we bring it to life. It is a waste to be asking the question when you are the answer.
-- Joseph Campbell


Awesome quotes!


eudaimonia,

Mark

[Scholar]

I wonder then why you live?I think you and I have come to a similar conclusion,but I am not satisfied with that conclusion, I do not believe it is correct, what was the purpose in truth of you answering then?


I don't think there is any reason to live. Being alive or dead doesn't matter, but at the moment, being alive is the default position. It would take more effort (physically and mentally) to reach the other position, so I stay alive. But ultimately it doesn't matter and there is no "reason" for me to live. I don't think anyone would really care if I died (other than being annoyed by the inconvenience).

I love that,living is the default the position,haha,that made me laugh thankyou. As to the other explanations,beautiful,but how can we enjoy life with such plaguing questions attaking one's mind??I mean to find meaning while searching for the underlying meaning seems impossible..

[neilstone40]

Hey Neilstone,how you been?Sorry,I really don't get on here very much anymore,perhaps that will change.

I'm doing OK young seeker, usual ups and downs but for the most part . It's good to see you back when you can make it as your contributions to the forum always promote really good discussions.




Nothing seems to have a point to me anymore, I am withdrawn and apathetic towards everything,because like Tolstoy I have undone myself trying to understand the infamous" why". I want to feel again,I want to live again, but I want it be real, I don't want to decieve myself by wrapping myself up in a career and calling that my purpose.

I fully accept the possibility that I'm wrong on this one but could it be more related to mood and circumstance at the moment? What you describe sounds a lot like the questions many of us ask in an attempt to understand our existence although it also sounds a lot like you could be feeling depressed or simply 'a bit down' just now. Depression, even in it's mildest forms can cause a similar level of introspection, over-analysis and feelings of lethargy or isolation.

There are many ways to feel and live. You also don't need to have just one purpose. Some are lucky enough to have a career that is also their vocation in life. With many others their job pays the bills and is a 'necessary evil' to allow them to explore the things they enjoy and are passionate about.

Your job only defines you if you want it to. I'm sure you're much more complex than that. Leaving work aside for the moment, what are your passions in life?



I want to truly know why "I" and everything else exists, I need my moment of recognizing my point of life to be "a big bush burning moment", I need this to change my life.

Most of us here are still looking for that level of understanding. Give it time though, it may not arrive any time soon but the journey is part of the fun.

True 'epiphanies' seldom happen, most knowledge comes in small doses but the cumulative effect is no less profound. I think the nearest I ever had to an epiphany was deciding that my religious beliefs were nonsense although that was also a gradual erosion ending in a conscious decision rather than a singular 'life changing moment'.





You sound like a good man Neilstone, and I'm happy for you that these things offer satisfaction to you,and I don't belittle that whatsoever for the record,but none of it seems real, did you ever go through a phase like this when you were younger?

Thanks Scholar, I try my best and often fail miserably like everybody else...

The examples I gave are some of the things that I hold as important to me but satisfaction can sometimes suggest contentment. I enjoy my family for example but know that I constantly need to work hard to maintain and improve things. There are a lot of other things in life that drive me and other stuff I simply do for the hell of it (e.g. rockclimbing, martial arts, having a discussion with FUBG)

I went through similar phases to what you describe when I was younger where I questioned my own existence and my purpose in life. I'm in my 40's now and still do with alarming regularity. Personally, I'd be more worried if we were both coasting through life without trying to figure it all out...

Sometimes the harder you try to understand life, the more difficult it becomes. I'd liken it to cramming for an exam when everything you read turns 'kinda grey', your head starts to hurt and even stuff you previously understood now makes no sense at all. Maybe the best thing it to step back from it a bit, do something else and come back to it when you're feeling refreshed...

[neilstone40]

Being alive or dead doesn't matter, but at the moment, being alive is the default position. It would take more effort (physically and mentally) to reach the other position, so I stay alive.

That's a novel way of putting it. Should I be worried that some of what you're saying makes sense?:evil:




I don't think anyone would really care if I died (other than being annoyed by the inconvenience).

In all seriousness I'd genuinely miss you. I'm sure there are others who would too.

You do have also have a 'Victor Meldrew' quality to you....

[Politesse]

There's a flow, a pattern to the universe. When I feel that I am moving in accordance with it, the desire to find more "purpose" or "meaning" becomes less important to me, because I feel that I am where I need to be regardless of where I'm going. Each moment is bodhisattva; it can teach you everything you need to know to be content, if you put aside the barriers that block comprehension.

[Scholar]

Hmmm...good advice Neilstone.I'll see what I can do,it sounds a bit similar as if when you look at something too close it gets blurry,and you have to step back and readjust your eyes.Politesse,your use of the term Bodhisattva illustrates your knowledge of Eastern philosophy, so I'll trust you know what I mean completely when I say I have been out of harmony with the flow of energy for a long time. Do you guys believe that there is an answer, one that we can grasp with the human intellect,I mean there has to be an anser, the question is whether or not we can find it you know?

[David B]

If you are looking for some ultimate, cosmic or absolute meaning or purpose in the universe, Scholar, then I fear that you are doomed to disappointment.

This does not imply, though, I've come to see, that meaning and purpose are meaningless or non existent.

Rather, IMV, meaning and purpose can be seen as emergent and still emerging qualities of the universe.

I gained a lot from reading 'Darwin's Dangerous Idea', which I commend to you.

David

[Jack Willsson]

Hmmm...good advice Neilstone.I'll see what I can do,it sounds a bit similar as if when you look at something too close it gets blurry,and you have to step back and readjust your eyes.Politesse,your use of the term Bodhisattva illustrates your knowledge of Eastern philosophy, so I'll trust you know what I mean completely when I say I have been out of harmony with the flow of energy for a long time. Do you guys believe that there is an answer, one that we can grasp with the human intellect,I mean there has to be an anser, the question is whether or not we can find it you know?

Hi scholar :)

I've just made a mess of posting this so forgive any nonsense.

Obviously, without a sentient "God" there's no universal meaning to "life, the universe and everything"

I'll try to explain my POV when this software has forgiven me for hitting the wrong buttons ... and I've had time to start again and express myself clearly ....

[davidpbrown]

Obviously, without a sentient "God" there's no universal meaning to "life, the universe and everything"

That's not obviously the case. The premise suggests meaning arises from sentience, so equally meaning could arise from any sentience. Life might become it's own meaning. The 'universal' is redundant as any meaning would become the meaning.

[BioBeing]

Nothing seems to have a point to me anymore, I am withdrawn and apathetic towards everything,because like Tolstoy I have undone myself trying to understand the infamous" why". I want to feel again,I want to live again, but I want it be real, I don't want to decieve myself by wrapping myself up in a career and calling that my purpose. I want to truly know why "I" and everything else exists, I need my moment of recognizing my point of life to be "a big bush burning moment", I need this to change my life. I'm obsessed right now, because I need to start to care about the things in my life and this world again. I'm looking for the Platonic Form of meaning really. You sound like a good man Neilstone, and I'm happy for you that these things offer satisfaction to you,and I don't belittle that whatsoever for the record,but none of it seems real, did you ever go through a phase like this when you were younger?

I think your problem is asking the wrong question. By asking "why are we here" you are assuming that there is a reason. I don't think there is. There is no God to give us a reason.

A better question is "given that we are here, what should we do next?" And that is only a question you can answer for yourself.

But I don't find that a disquieting thought at all. We are, after all, then descendents of a long line of winners - creatures that didn't just quit and give up (at least not before leaving some progeny). I keep living in part because of my loved ones, and in part simply to find out what happens next.

[davidpbrown]

In answer to the OP, I can suggest moving beyond simple existential crisis, I'm frustrated with the world as it is, stuck with a thought that we live in the middle ages but then minded to do what little I can to move it forward, to make it become something worthwhile. I appreciate what there is but it could be so much more. It would be easy to critique people but the systemic stupidity we see in institutions and politics and other macro fields is interesting to watch. Those macro contexts feed into the future generations understanding of the world they find themselves in, so setting that context appropriately is important, if they are to stand a chance of capturing what life could be in a meaningful way.

If you are crossing into borderline Nihilism, maybe travel and meet people. You likely won't find what you want but you might find a little inspiration, some sight of what could be possible enough to motivate a contribution.

[Rie]

Keep calm Scholar and see if music does anything for you. I think it is meaningless to seek meaning. There will come a moment when the sheer good side to things overcomes doubts. There's a song "It Ain't Whatcha Do, It's the Way that You do it" and as the song says ... that's what gets results.

[Politesse]

Hmmm...good advice Neilstone.I'll see what I can do,it sounds a bit similar as if when you look at something too close it gets blurry,and you have to step back and readjust your eyes.Politesse,your use of the term Bodhisattva illustrates your knowledge of Eastern philosophy, so I'll trust you know what I mean completely when I say I have been out of harmony with the flow of energy for a long time. Do you guys believe that there is an answer, one that we can grasp with the human intellect,I mean there has to be an anser, the question is whether or not we can find it you know?

I suppose what I was trying to say is that I think one comes to a certain point of realization eventually, that the question itself is a delusion of a sort. We don't need to know the answer to the ultimate question of life, the universe, and everything in order to feel content and purposeful. The universe is a valid excuse for its own existence, and so are we, without the need for some driving external purpose to make us worthwhile.

[rog]

Hmmm...good advice Neilstone.I'll see what I can do,it sounds a bit similar as if when you look at something too close it gets blurry,and you have to step back and readjust your eyes.Politesse,your use of the term Bodhisattva illustrates your knowledge of Eastern philosophy, so I'll trust you know what I mean completely when I say I have been out of harmony with the flow of energy for a long time. Do you guys believe that there is an answer, one that we can grasp with the human intellect,I mean there has to be an anser, the question is whether or not we can find it you know?

I suppose what I was trying to say is that I think one comes to a certain point of realization eventually, that the question itself is a delusion of a sort. We don't need to know the answer to the ultimate question of life, the universe, and everything in order to feel content and purposeful. The universe is a valid excuse for its own existence, and so are we, without the need for some driving external purpose to make us worthwhile.

42, silly!

[Politesse]

42, silly!

I think even Arthur got a little tired of the quest for the ultimate Question; life certainly seemed to go better for him as a Sandwich Maker than as a component of the great Question-answering machine.

[Eudaimonist]

There's a flow, a pattern to the universe. When I feel that I am moving in accordance with it, the desire to find more "purpose" or "meaning" becomes less important to me, because I feel that I am where I need to be regardless of where I'm going.

Well put. This is what I (and David Norton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_L._Norton)) call the experience of eudaimonia, which is basically the sense that one is both where one needs to be and wants to be, and one becomes a lot less self-conscious in those times, but rather experiences life as Flow (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_(psychology)).

Personally, I think that "seeking meaning" tends to fail for the same reason that seeking happiness tends to fail. And that is because one can't seek such things directly -- they are byproducts of other pursuits. Meaning, like happiness, isn't something that is found, but rather is created through other activities.


eudaimonia,

Mark

[BWE]

I don't know how you all feel about coincidence but this:

http://secularcafe.org/images/oceanzero/misc/navbits_finallink_ltr.gif (http://secularcafe.org/showthread.php?t=10803) Meaning Welcome, BWE (http://secularcafe.org/member.php?u=33).
420 Unread Posts (http://secularcafe.org/search.php?do=getnew) since your last visit.
was ast the top of this page when I clicked on it

[Silly Sausage]

Ha ha, I signed in after 2 days away and had 421 unread posts!

[Rie]

As I clumped stoically around making the bed, I thought of you Scholar and fully realised what you need to know, We live from moment to moment and it's in the endless flow of moments that we find meaning. It's not intellectual Scholar ... it's a feeling of contentment both looking back at all the moments and looking forward to the rest.

I think philosophers call it Living in the moment. It's like the light bulb smiley (and just where was the light bulb smiley when I needed it...hmmmm?).

One thing that helps is laughter. Look at the funny stuff on the web. Sapphy makes me look if I'm finding the moment useless and dreary.

[Berthold]

Hm. Meaning and / or purpose of life...

As for those versions that allegedly have an extraneous, usually supernatural, source or focus, and are advertised by organised religion as if, without them, a human being would be severely incomplete: I need them, like a snake needs shoes.

In fact, religion brandishes the words so blatantly that they have gotten sour for me, even though they may have a perfectly sane secular interpretation.

[davidpbrown]

As for those versions that allegedly have an extraneous, usually supernatural, source or focus, and are advertised by organised religion as if, without them, a human being would be severely incomplete: I need them, like a snake needs shoes.

That reminds me.. the arguement you rarely see, especially in the West, is that, maybe in a real sense the individual is of no consequence.

Religions frequently cater to selfish interest in survival, especially after death - it's as if life can have no purpose if you don't survive death. Even outside religion, people's search for meaning and purpose, is taken with notions of self and purpose in one life.

What if the individual counts for nothing and only the greater meme is of consequence? What if death is final for the individual and all really that matters is a clean edge to the meme's existence?

Maybe that perspective can help provide a better context for how we contribute to the greater existence of mankind the meme.