AA or 12 STep Program idea about a greater power?

[wordy]

AA or 12 STep Program idea about a greater power?

Wikipedia says:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve-step_program

These are the original Twelve Steps as published by Alcoholics Anonymous:[11]

1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

What is this greater or Higher Power supposed to refer to?

I mean as an atheist it is impossible to support it. There is no evidence for such a Higher or greater Power.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higher_Power

Higher Power is a term coined in the 1930s in Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) and used in other twelve-step programs. It is also sometimes referred to as a power greater than ourselves and is frequently abbreviated to HP.

Sociologist Darren Sherkat researched the belief of Americans in a Higher Power. He based his research on data from 8,000 adults polled by the Chicago-based National Opinion Research Center between 1988 and 2000. Amongst his findings were that 8% stated "I don't believe in a personal god, but I do believe in a higher power of some kind." This is the same figure as found by the 1999 Gallup national poll of Americans. Sherkat also found that 16% of the Jewish people surveyed agreed with the statement about a 'higher power', whilst 13.2% of liberal Protestants and 10.6% of Episcopalians also agreed with it.[3]

An empirically based recovery framework likened faith in a Higher Power to motivation for personal growth as described by Abraham Maslow and Carl Rogers.[4]

Definition and usage

In current twelve-step program usage a Higher Power can be anything at all that the member believes is adequate. Reported examples include Nature, consciousness, existential freedom, their twelve-step group, God, science, Buddha, Nature.

It is frequently stipulated that as long as a Higher Power is "greater" than the individual, then the only condition is that it should also be loving and caring.[5]

"I don't believe in a personal god, but I do believe in a higher power of some kind."

So Nature is supposed to be a greater power than the person dependent on the drugs. Buddhists maybe refer to Buddha Nature?

Sounds rather anthropomorphic to me.

Here in Sweden some that are not religions maybe refer to the group they meet at AA as their greater power? I've heard it being mention on TV but not sure how many that see it that way. Group Dynamics maybe?

What would be ok for us atheistic naturalists to see as a greater than us as individual humans?

[Tod]

AA or 12 STep Program idea about a greater power?

Wikipedia says:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve-step_program

These are the original Twelve Steps as published by Alcoholics Anonymous:[11]

1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

What is this greater or Higher Power supposed to refer to?

I mean as an atheist it is impossible to support it. There is no evidence for such a Higher or greater Power.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higher_Power

Higher Power is a term coined in the 1930s in Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) and used in other twelve-step programs. It is also sometimes referred to as a power greater than ourselves and is frequently abbreviated to HP.

Sociologist Darren Sherkat researched the belief of Americans in a Higher Power. He based his research on data from 8,000 adults polled by the Chicago-based National Opinion Research Center between 1988 and 2000. Amongst his findings were that 8% stated "I don't believe in a personal god, but I do believe in a higher power of some kind." This is the same figure as found by the 1999 Gallup national poll of Americans. Sherkat also found that 16% of the Jewish people surveyed agreed with the statement about a 'higher power', whilst 13.2% of liberal Protestants and 10.6% of Episcopalians also agreed with it.[3]

An empirically based recovery framework likened faith in a Higher Power to motivation for personal growth as described by Abraham Maslow and Carl Rogers.[4]

Definition and usage

In current twelve-step program usage a Higher Power can be anything at all that the member believes is adequate. Reported examples include Nature, consciousness, existential freedom, their twelve-step group, God, science, Buddha, Nature.

It is frequently stipulated that as long as a Higher Power is "greater" than the individual, then the only condition is that it should also be loving and caring.[5]

"I don't believe in a personal god, but I do believe in a higher power of some kind."

So Nature is supposed to be a greater power than the person dependent on the drugs. Buddhists maybe refer to Buddha Nature?

Sounds rather anthropomorphic to me.

Here in Sweden some that are not religions maybe refer to the group they meet at AA as their greater power? I've heard it being mention on TV but not sure how many that see it that way. Group Dynamics maybe?

What would be ok for us atheistic naturalists to see as a greater than us as individual humans?

I myself recognize myriad "higher powers," they simply aren't supernatural in nature. Certainly many of the forces in nature are more powerful than myself, as is the social organism itself. I'm not so sure that I'd recognize an AA group as a "higher power," however, since they have absolutely NO power in regards to whether or not I drink: the only "power" that is helpful in this case is your own inner will and strength. They can provide support, encouragement, and understanding, but without my will and determination they have NO power to keep me clean, and therefore they clearly aren't a higher power to myself.

This is one of many reasons I find AA a bad idea (another would be that AA success rates are no better than the individual, untreated, cold-turkey method). The notion that "you are powerless" to control your addiction without the group is a horrible message to give to addicts, most of which have little self-confidence or self-esteem to begin with. A more constructive message, IMO, would be: "this is going to be difficult for you, and sometimes you may have to turn to the group to assist you, but ultimately you (and only you) DO have the power to change your lifestyle."

What really gets me about AA is that the court often mandates addicts to attend, despite there being no reliable and independent empirical research that AA is effective, and, more disturbing still, despite the fact that AA is clearly tied to religious principles that are at best meaningless and at worst offensive to nonbelievers. They may claim you can choose a secular higher power initially, but stick around a couple of weeks and you WILL be preached to: there simply is no way to attend AA and not be eventually inundated with Christian theology and attempts at conversion.

[wordy]

I kind of agree but I am not as sure as you are.
I guess it all depends on what one refer to using the words.

http://www.secularsobriety.org/othergroups.htm

Take one of them SMART that claims to use evidence based treatment based on CBT and such.

http://www.smartrecovery.org/

http://www.smartrecovery.org/intro/

Much of the information imparted by us is drawn from the field of cognitive-behavioral therapy (CBT), and particularly from Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy, as developed by Albert Ellis, Ph.D. In general, CBT views addictive behavior more as a complex maladaptive behavior than as a disease. Use of the CBT perspective allows us to use a rich and easily accessible body of ideas, techniques, and publications. Some of these publications we are able to make available directly to our participants, and others are available through bookstores and other sources.

3. What we offer is consistent with the most effective methods yet discovered for resolving emotional and behavioral problems. As scientific knowledge advances, our teachings will be modified accordingly. Individuals with religious beliefs are likely to find our program as compatible with their beliefs as other scientifically derived knowledge and applications.

But they also admit that there are participants that have to go to AA to get support?

SMART vs. 12-Step Programs

At SMART we believe that each individual finds his own path to recovery. For some that may include traditional 12-step programs like Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) or Narcotics Anonymous (NA). While the SMART approach differs from AA and NA, it does not exclude them. Some SMART participants choose to attend AA or NA meetings when they cannot attend a SMART meeting. Some find that what they hear at AA or NA meetings helps them on their path to permanent recovery.

So if CBT would be sufficient then they would not need to go to AA at all.

I have tested CBT and it requires a good deal of self power. If you don't have self power enough then one fail to do the needed home work for CBT to work. I failed every time I tried to use it.

Now does other power or greater power or higher power exist at all or is it always our own power but expressed in poetic or religious form as Higher Power or God.

I prefer to see it as placebo effect but in a more broad perspective. Cause Placebo is usually only referred to within medicine but for me it is about entrusting in somebody or something that is supposed to be of help when one fail to help oneself.

So if I am right then placebo power could be seen as a evidence based effect that is not self power. Without the placebo then nothing happens but if one get the placebo then the body by processes that my self power fail to get going get triggered by the placebo treatment but if I try to trig it myself then I fail to access the trig or trip or push button.

The bad thing with placebo is that it only last for a while. Minutes to hours to days and for how long the individual have faith in it? Very individual I guess.

When I talked to Jesus 1983 that placebo talk I had lasted 60 seconds but the effect it had lasted some three years and I am still trusting in it but I fail to repeat it cause then my body would convert me to Christian fundy faith and that would be a personal disaster for me as an atheist and I have to avoid this by all means. I rather die than become christian.

So I thought of Amida as Jodo Shinshu think of "him" cause some of them have a symbolic interpretation so then I would not be converted to a fundamentalism. But Amida is very Japanese culture. I am Western, I don't want to become a cultural Japan, I have enough trouble trying to live up being a native Swede.

[Tod]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not "sure" that a person wouldn't get anything out of attending AA: indeed some people do report success with 12-step programs.

What I am sure about is that there is no empirical evidence that 12-step programs work any better than cold-turkey. IMO, when AA does work, it is because, as you suggested, of the placebo effect or an attribution of ones own inner will and determination to some external factor (like God or AA itself).

However, I think that even if this helps the alcoholic stop drinking, it only further contributes to the problem that caused the alcoholism to begin with, and often either symptom substitution or increased emotional or interpersonal problems increase or go unresolved. Along with low self-regard, having an external verses an internal locus of control is common among most addicts. For those that may not know what I'm talking about, a person with an external locus of control tends to see things that happen to him or her as being external to the individual (hence most things in live are beyond their control), while a person with a more internal locus of control is more likely to attribute things that happen to him or her as being to some degree or another based on their own actions. I.E. the former would say "the teacher gave me a D" while the latter would say "I earned a D."

Addicts should ALWAYS be oriented to an internal locus of control, regardless of whether the "treatment" is cold-turkey, 12-step based, or some secular treatments like CBT. Self empowerment is going to be necessary to success, and if the addict gives all credit to God or the group how is the addict empowered or taking responsibility for his/her own actions and behavior? I ask that rhetorically, of course.

[DMB]

I seem to recall that CBT was more effective than 12-step stuff. If you like 12 steps, however, there is this possibility (http://www.secularsobriety.org/overview.html)

[wordy]

DMB, yes I have linked to them in other threads? Not sure where. Iam active on several boards.

They use CBT but CBT is something me have tested since Skinner was active 195x and at least for 50 years and I fail to do CBT.

But I know it is the most effective and evidence based we knew of up to some years ago.

Now we maybe see an even more effective and evidence based treatment http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavioral_activation

Behavioral_activation

so yes all these seems to require self power. So it kind of doesn't help me. Cause I have tried this since 50 years and it totally fails me.

Tod, but that is not working for people who lack that capacity.

I don't say it is as impossible as teaching perfect pitch to a tone deaf but even persons with talent for music fail to do perfect pitch but they are incredibly much better at it than those who lack pitch all together.

Yes you are right in principle, it is much better to teach people self reliance than to teach them reliance on other power.

But what to do with those of us that are so bad at self power that none has patience with us failing. People just walk away from you when they realize how big difference it is. it is like going to IDOL and sing when you totally fail to sing. They mock you for pretending to be able to sing. It doesn't help much that one do ones best cause that is not enough if it below the expected lowest level that people demand for to stand being in ones present.

I can examplify with the guy living on 4 floor in our big house. He is a complete moron, none are able to talk to him in a way that makes sense to them. He has no social skills at all. He is more like a bad written software program than a fellow social human being. I am happy that I am not into conspiracies cause he is so alien that I could think he is a android or reptoid or artificial human but alien robot that pretend to be human to spy on us.

He is that different in movement and talk and thinking. Sad but I understand why a lot of people that don't want to meet me, I am too different too and he is ten times worse. I would not spend time with him even if I got paid to. His negative impact on me would not get compensated by a high sum money per hour. Too destructive work to talk to him. Destructive to be in his presence.

I know I am Asperger and I think he maybe have severe such or Autism so I have many times tried to talk to him and it is not possible. He is a mystery.

So Tod you're lucky to have that much self power to allow you to make it on your own. Not all of us have that power.

But if I was to get more self confidence that would be living a lie.

I tried this between 1965 to 1983 and it was a total disaster. I lured to nice girls to be my GF and they realized I was not what I thought I was. My pumped up self confidence was a not what it told them to be. I realized this 1983 after the divorce. I felt so ashamed me had no idea that I had lived a lie for so many years. So I don't trust in giving self confidence to people lacking skills. The result will only be good if they have skills. If you give somebody lacking skills self confidence that they have skills then that will teach them a false sense of self. You could not have meant that so I guess you trust everybody does have inner potential. Have you met us who lack skills? No matter how many exercises we do we still fail to get it right.

[wordy]

I even have too much self confidence as it is now. A more realistic Wordy would not even suggest Entrustism at all. It is not realistic and it is due to my too high faith in my capacity and reality show that I have a too high level of confidence in my self power.

[Matty]

[anecdote]one of the few guys i know who went off the rails withe drugs when we were younger was intervened and put into therapy by his folks. when i saw him a couple years later he was a christian of a desperate and scarily eager type.

there is quite a bit of opinion that 12 step is basically replacement therapy, replacing dependency on drugs or whatever with the "higher power". Much as they do state that higher power doesnt necessarily mean God, that is of course a very common interpretation.

There was a penn and teller bullshit on this and the interview with a post 12 step Gary Busy was quite scary. He had that wild eyed eager religiosity going on too. Certainly a far cry from Leroy the Masochist and Mr Joshua

[Tod]

but that is not working for people who lack that capacity...Yes you are right in principle, it is much better to teach people self reliance than to teach them reliance on other power.

But what to do with those of us that are so bad at self power that none has patience with us failing.

Why can't the group offer EXACTLY the same support, encouragement, and understanding they do, but simply leave out the message that "you are powerless"? Why can't they give the message I suggested earlier: encouraging them that they do have the power, but might need a lot of help?

Even if a person theoretically can't adopt an internal orientation of control, it can't hurt to encourage them that they do have the power while helping them, and it can't help to reinforce the idea that they are powerless.

If you disagree, how do you think telling a person they are powerless and require assistance helps more than encouraging them that they can do it, they just need help?

[lpetrich]

I remember once looking at the Twelve Steps and thinking that they resemble traditional Xian theology: we are totally incapable of saving ourselves, therefore we must beeelieeeve in Jesus Christ.

[wordy]

Matty, Tod, Ipetrich, all of you trust me that I am as critical as all of you about the way the 12 Step program goes about its selling their treatment.

It is a shame the way claim to get result. As far as I know only CBT and Behavioral activations show result over placebo or just waining in line to get therapy. It is kind of fun but to be put on a waiting list to get therapy is in itself something that help.

I know too little to explain why the other power work as it does. I have felt it but I find it most likely it is the placebo effect. But I fail to trigger it by my own self power.

I agree that most likely it is not better than placebo treatment.

So they do a kind of lie. The problem is that for to make a placebo work you have to conceal the truth.

they even do double blind tests for it to be sure to work.

the person who administer the test should not know if the patient get a real treatment or a false pseudo or faked or placebo treatment.

all of them should believe in what they do for it to work best.

So it is not easy to set up.

But I still don't support AA 12 Step cause it is a kind of big lie and I agree that they just change a chemical dependence on drugs to a chemical dependence on the attention they give each other in the group meetings.

The meetings are a bit like the love bombing that the destructive sects do to impress new comers.

an artificial "live role play" kind of love. Not real love.

[wordy]

Ipetrich we are totally incapable of saving ourselves, therefore we must beeelieeeve in Jesus Christ.

Yes but as an aggressive atheist to my surprise that was what I realized too 1983. I failed to do anything by my own power. Only Jesus could save me. Fortunately for me I managed to trick me to get help by an imagined "Friend" Jesus that was my own mock up and to my surprise that did work for three years and could have worked for much longer if there had existed a Unitarian Universalist Church in Sweden but Quakers was insisting that a god has to be supernatural to be accepted among them and they didn't want readings from the Bible either which I gave them each Sunday for three years.

It is kind of amazing they stomached my invasion of their Silent Meeting. It was not silent when I was there. Now this was 1983 to 1986 so it was a long time ago.

But it helped me survive. The humanists had no such resource to help me. They relied totally on their own self power which was what I lacked to make use of.

Quakers allow the Inner Light to help you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inner_light

Inner Light is a concept which many Quakers, members of the Religious Society of Friends, use to express their faith and beliefs. Each Quaker has a different idea of what they mean by "inner light", and this also varies internationally between Yearly Meetings, but the idea is often taken to refer to God's presence within a person, and to a direct and personal experience of God. Quakers believe that God speaks to everyone, and that in order to hear God's voice, it helps to be still and actively listen for it.

This is often done in meeting for worship; Paul Lacout, in Quaker Faith and Practice, described a "silence which is active" causing the Inner Light to "glow".[1]

They believe not only that individuals can be guided by this Inner Light, but that Friends might meet together and receive collective guidance from God by sharing the concerns and leadings that he gives to individuals.[2] In a Friends meeting it is usually called "ministry" when a person shares aloud what the Inner Light is saying to him or her.

Inner Light is very similar to the Jodo Shinshu view on Amida as the infinite light that show infinite compassion.

It is kind of cute that cultures so far apart arrive at very similar views. Not exactly same but kind of similar.

[wordy]

Why can't the group offer EXACTLY the same support, encouragement, and understanding they do, but simply leave out the message that "you are powerless"? Why can't they give the message I suggested earlier: encouraging them that they do have the power, but might need a lot of help?

A very reasonable and needed question. Maybe self help groups of CBT aware people could make groups that could help each other without telling that they have no power at all.

Behavioral Activation groups could maybe even better help each other. Future research will tell if that is evidence based knowledge or only my wild speculation.

[wordy]

" but simply leave out the message that "you are powerless"? "

But that is not only something that they exploit and force unto perfectly capable people who have enough of self power to invent new techniques that change our lives on earth.

Lack of self power to feel "powerless" is something that some of us really know by own experience. Every employer that have Bossed me can confirm how totally hopeless I was to get doing my worth for the money they had to pay me. Even the Union took their protecting hand from me and I was out of job for from 1986 to about 200x when I received status of being too hopeless to get fixed.

As far as I know I have failed at everything that I have tried to do.

[epepke]

" but simply leave out the message that "you are powerless"? "

But that is not only something that they exploit and force unto perfectly capable people who have enough of self power to invent new techniques that change our lives on earth.

Lack of self power to feel "powerless" is something that some of us really know by own experience. Every employer that have Bossed me can confirm how totally hopeless I was to get doing my worth for the money they had to pay me. Even the Union took their protecting hand from me and I was out of job for from 1986 to about 200x when I received status of being too hopeless to get fixed.

As far as I know I have failed at everything that I have tried to do.

Yes, but it's stupid.

Especially if you feel powerless, you don't need someone bashing it even more into your head.

[BWE]

Higher power is pretty nebulous. Understanding outside current understanding? Hmmm.

[Danhalen]

I would think higher power could refer to anything that holds sway over us. My wife is my greater power.

[wordy]

epepke, I could ask Danhalen's wife to bash me? :D

sorry just me trying to make us all laugh. I am sure she is a benevolent power over him.

My latest wife was a rather kind higher power too. I guess I still love her.

Well these AA or 12Steppers they claim (I made a phone call today it's 10.25 AM here now) and when I asked their information desk about this higher power they told me "it was not religious cause you could be Christian or Muslim or Buddhist or Agnostic or whatever it had nothing to do with religion cause it was a spiritual power".

"If it is spiritual then to me that is religious" I told the guy and he almost got very angry with me insisting cause to him it was very important to keep the delusion that spiritual powers had nothing to do with religious power. So I got it wrong and he got it right cause he was the one serving the information desk and he knew what AA was about it was a spiritual and not a religious thing. Period!

So I had to see him as the expert on them. Ok so when do they meet where I live.

At 19.00 sharp PM andthat is a rather good time. Three days a week. so compared to having one Amida group 100miles away and in Taiwanese language.

Are you guys also insisting that spiritual is not religious? Only New Age and AA and maybe Buddhists would insist on such? Or maybe me get it wrong I just say what my gut feelings tells me. A higher power is religious to me. Danhalen's wife is higher power to him but not the generalized higher power in standard English?

[wordy]

Higher power is pretty nebulous. Understanding outside current understanding? Hmmm.

that was the impression I got too. Not that I know what nebulous means ... I look it up.

Yeah your are right on on that one

nebulous is to be:
1. Cloudy, misty, or hazy.
2. Lacking definite form or limits; vague: nebulous assurances of future cooperation.
3. Of, relating to, or characteristic of a nebula.

[Middle English, from Latin nebulsus, from nebula, cloud; see nebh- in Indo-European roots.]
nebu·lous·ly adv.
nebu·lous·ness n.

nebulous
Adjective
vague and unclear: a nebulous concept end of quote

AA's view on Higher power is cloudy and fuzzy indeed. Could be anything as long as it was greater power than the one referring to it as their power.

They even referred to Consciousness as higher power for some.

[wordy]

...
Yes, but it's stupid.

Especially if you feel powerless, you don't need someone bashing it even more into your head.

Depends on the perspective.

If you feel powerless and your relatives and neighbors insist that you have power then it is good to know that others like the AA and the Jodo Shinshu confirm that even if you failed at everything then they at least share that experience and they have done something that works for them.

To accept and openly admit that it is a true fact about them and now they decide to do something about it.

To rely on that greater than them power that is known to be of help. Amida Buddha. Or the "spiritual" higher power of 12STep program. Same power different name.

So stupid it may be but as an experience it feels totally ok. :D

So what is the alternative? I've tested to use my own power now since some 50 years and it fails all the time. I simply lack such power.

[Garnet]

If you read Chapter 4 of the Big Book, you will quickly see that the higher power is not all that nebulous. AA is Christianity in another package.

http://www.aa.org/bigbookonline/en_bigbook_chapt4.pdf

[Ray Moscow]

Supposedly one's "higher power" can be anything. According to John Bradshaw, one guy named a tree his "higher power".

However, would it work if one named alcohol (or whichever addicting substance) as one's "higher power"?

"I admit that I'm powerless to resist alcohol, and only alcohol can save me.".

[DMB]

If you read Chapter 4 of the Big Book, you will quickly see that the higher power is not all that nebulous. AA is Christianity in another package.

http://www.aa.org/bigbookonline/en_bigbook_chapt4.pdf

I found that pretty shocking. It comes across as real snake oil. Do AA release verifiable statistics on success rates?

[wordy]

Ray that was as cute as the Cat in your avatar. :D

Garnet, yes I see it as a kind of Christian thing too but officially they don't want to admit this here in Sweden.

The Info guy at AA got very upset about what I told him. The program had nothing to do with religion. It was 100% spiritual and nothing of it was religious.

Every individual decided what was his greater or higher power.

I have the chance soon to go their open meeting here locally and ask them and it will be interesting to see how they react to the Big book.

Maybe they say it is an old text and that they have changed view on it since then?

[DMB]

Ask them for statistics, wordy!

[wordy]

DMB, their own stat most likely say it is very high. One need a kind of independent research and that could be difficult to set up.

If one ask those that go there then they would most likely say it is very effective so that would be very misleading. Like asking Christians if Jesus saved them. Even I as an atheist could tell that Jesus saved me 1983 and that was an imagined version and not the real one so even a Placebo Jesus is very effective when it comes to saving.

[wordy]

Ask them for statistics, wordy!

This is Sweden, we have a consensus society mentality one should never ask things that start a conflict. That makes you a trouble maker and such are shunned. It is very local those there could be my near neighbor remember it is Alcohol anonymous so it is tricky to challenge neighbors without getting wall to wall enemies right away.

Those who drink alochol sense me a non-user long way cause I have never used it only tested it ones around 1976 or so and the result was so good that I did not dare to test it again cause I would get hooked instantly, I am 100% sure of that.

Wish there where some alternative to alcohol. Jesus maybe. :D Amida seems a bit less scary though than Jesus. So either Amida or something I invent myself.

[wordy]

The AA Big Book make use of the "God as we understood Him" ( Capital G in God and capital H in Him) and that is changed in Sweden to a Higher Power understood as something greater than the individual. The God part is very played down here.

But the description originally seems to be about God for sure.

Which to me is religious. I mean how could one have faith in god without seeing it as religious faith? One come to think of Politicians needing to use "Spin Doctors to find rhetoric words that say one thing but mean something else?

[Garnet]

If you read Chapter 4 of the Big Book, you will quickly see that the higher power is not all that nebulous. AA is Christianity in another package.

http://www.aa.org/bigbookonline/en_bigbook_chapt4.pdf

I found that pretty shocking. It comes across as real snake oil. Do AA release verifiable statistics on success rates?

Nope. That would violate the anonymous nature of the meetings.

Nice, eh? They can make all kinds of claims and there is no way to verify it.

[Garnet]

Ray that was as cute as the Cat in your avatar. :D

Garnet, yes I see it as a kind of Christian thing too but officially they don't want to admit this here in Sweden.

The Info guy at AA got very upset about what I told him. The program had nothing to do with religion. It was 100% spiritual and nothing of it was religious.

Every individual decided what was his greater or higher power.

I have the chance soon to go their open meeting here locally and ask them and it will be interesting to see how they react to the Big book.

Maybe they say it is an old text and that they have changed view on it since then?

That is the latest version of the Big Book. People often conveniantly overlook Chapter 4. Understand that in the US if you are convicted of a crime and you have an alcohol problem, it is highly likely that you will be court ordered to attend AA meetings.

[Ray Moscow]

Ray that was as cute as the Cat in your avatar. :D

Garnet, yes I see it as a kind of Christian thing too but officially they don't want to admit this here in Sweden.

The Info guy at AA got very upset about what I told him. The program had nothing to do with religion. It was 100% spiritual and nothing of it was religious.

Every individual decided what was his greater or higher power.

I have the chance soon to go their open meeting here locally and ask them and it will be interesting to see how they react to the Big book.

Maybe they say it is an old text and that they have changed view on it since then?

That is the latest version of the Big Book. People often conveniantly overlook Chapter 4. Understand that in the US if you are convicted of a crime and you have an alcohol problem, it is highly likely that you will be court ordered to attend AA meetings.

Well, I suppose the judge might figure that if atheism was working, you wouldn't be an alcoholic, would you? :D

(While conveniently ignoring the millions of alcoholic Christians. )

[Garnet]

Ray that was as cute as the Cat in your avatar. :D

Garnet, yes I see it as a kind of Christian thing too but officially they don't want to admit this here in Sweden.

The Info guy at AA got very upset about what I told him. The program had nothing to do with religion. It was 100% spiritual and nothing of it was religious.

Every individual decided what was his greater or higher power.

I have the chance soon to go their open meeting here locally and ask them and it will be interesting to see how they react to the Big book.

Maybe they say it is an old text and that they have changed view on it since then?

That is the latest version of the Big Book. People often conveniantly overlook Chapter 4. Understand that in the US if you are convicted of a crime and you have an alcohol problem, it is highly likely that you will be court ordered to attend AA meetings.

Well, I suppose the judge might figure that if atheism was working, you wouldn't be an alcoholic, would you? :D

(While conveniently ignoring the millions of alcoholic Christians. )

*snickers*

I can say from my own experience as a probation officer that most people in the Criminal Justice system really don't have a clue that AA is basically a Christian indoctrination program and the few that do know don't care. There is a rather large mythos surrounding AA and one can find oneself hip deep in a nest of alligators if one questions its efficacy.

[Ray Moscow]

I had read much of the Big Book at one point or another (there was an AA chapter in our church in Houston), but I have to say that re-reading chapter 4 makes me want to puke.

[Barefoot Bree]

AA began as an outright Christian organization, no bones about it. Those in charge slowly backed away from it over time, in order to gain wider acceptance, especially from the legal system. That's when they brought in the "higher power" wording. But the apple doesn't fall too far from the tree, and the wording is a thin veil at best. One might be able to find an individual group whose leadership is not overtly religious, but it's difficult.

And the whole concept bothers me, as well. I think an approach empowering the individual to fight his own fight would be much more successful than this "giving over to a higher power" crap. Unfortunately, that's the difficult road, as every individual is, well, an individual, with their own needs and methods and reasons. That doesn't fall into a nice, neat, easy solution like AA's.

I can't decide which approach I like better: the failed attempts at broader inclusiveness of AA, or the outright but honest bigotry of the Boy Scouts of America.

[wordy]

I did put some effort into understanding AA around 1989? Not sure exact when. I went to several of their open meetings and even the not open meetings pretending me an Alcoholic which is kind of true potentially cause I tend to get hooked on every thing I try out anyway.

So I know from first hand that some of the leaders in Sweden do really believe in Jesus.

Officially they are extremely persistent about this not a religious thing cause it is spiritual only. But very many of them go to this place. Allhelgonakyrkan in Stockholm The Priest there is Olle Carlsson and he is deeply into it all.

http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olle_Carlsson all text in swedish so don't bother to get it.

but that Priest wrote a book Christian faith for Atheists
http://www.bokus.com/b/9789185675081.html

and he has been an alcoholic and AA saved his life or rather Jesus and since then he help other alcoholics. His Mess? is the most popular in whole of sweden. He is rather friendly and easy to talk to person so I get why he is popular.

Baptists have an AA service too Minnesota Model recovery they name it. But same 12 Step program. So why would the Churches support it if it had nothing to do with religious faith in God. I mean they would have to support the Secular Humanists too to show some good measures caring about humanitarian things.

[wordy]

I had read much of the Big Book at one point or another (there was an AA chapter in our church in Houston), but I have to say that re-reading chapter 4 makes me want to puke.

the first or first two paragraphs of Chapter 5 is rather interesting about efficience of AA. I guess it is me they talk about there who fail to get helped.

"We are born that way. "

[epepke]

If one ask those that go there then they would most likely say it is very effective so that would be very misleading. Like asking Christians if Jesus saved them. Even I as an atheist could tell that Jesus saved me 1983 and that was an imagined version and not the real one so even a Placebo Jesus is very effective when it comes to saving.

The Brandsma, Maltsby and Welsh study showed that AA members had five times as much binge drinking as the control group and nine times as much binge drinking as the non-professional RBT group.

That means that AA is extremely effective. AA places high social value on binge drinking--it's what they tell you that you must do if you are not completely abstinent.

It may not be what an alcoholic might want, though.

[wordy]

That means that AA is extremely effective. AA places high social value on binge drinking--it's what they tell you that you must do if you are not completely abstinent.

Are you sarcastic or teasing them or what? I mean you talk to Wordy who never drink and have only used alcohol once in my life and that was an experiment in my home that lasted some 15 minutes and the amount was some 6 CCL or what to name it. The least amount that could give any noticeable effect. The effect was very pleasant. But my GF didn't like the total passiveness I showed. Which surprised me. I felt terrific. The best feeling I even have had ever so I don't dare to do that experiment again. I got hooked on it the first time I ever took it back in 1976 or something. It was that contagious or persuasive.

I wish something less toxic could have that effect. Ok to talk to Jesus has a similar effect but are even more dangerous to do. :D

I want a safe placebo that one could take again and again without bad side effects.

[epepke]

That means that AA is extremely effective. AA places high social value on binge drinking--it's what they tell you that you must do if you are not completely abstinent.

Are you sarcastic or teasing them or what?

See http://catb.org/jargon/html/H/ha-ha-only-serious.html

I'm being cynical, but I'm telling what I consider to be a truth. I think that AA does things I consider destructive, and it's not simply the God stuff. I think that there are a lot of things in this world that work that way, with a lot of accompanying lies.

I agree with Eric Berne. AA promotes alcoholism, as they define it. They publish rules on how you, too, can become an alcoholic. Once you get on the kick and get into the organization, they tell you that you will always be an alcoholic. They do their best to enfeeble you. Then they say, as I've pointed out, that if you have any alcohol at all, you have to wind up in the gutter.

This works in extremely well with the Christian notion of universal sin and redemption by some sort of Savior. As Berne points out, the payoff of ALCOHOLIC is not the drinking, which is merely an incidental pleasure. The payoff is the hangover, the time when the alcoholic gets to swear "never again." The more times you fall off the wagon, the more times you get the payoff. The stronger the commitment, the stronger the payoff. AA feeds both desires.

This game of alcoholism does not apply to people who drink alcohol normally, nor does it apply to people who use alcohol to self-medicate or people with a physical dependency on alcohol. The last is extremely dangerous. However, AA has so effectively controlled the very definition of alcoholism that it would be misleading to use the same term.

I wish something less toxic could have that effect. Ok to talk to Jesus has a similar effect but are even more dangerous to do. :D

Quite.

I want a safe placebo that one could take again and again without bad side effects.

I find sex to be quite good. It hasn't caused any unpleasant side-effects except a bit of a smell.

[wordy]

Sex?

That is very contagious. Stay away from it by all means. Celibacy is what the Pope and the Buddhas suggest to help you out epepke, your into deep trouble if you try sex. :D

I try to be as cynical as you. Yes sex was fun when I had a GF but sex without a GF is not as fun.

But sex could be an obsession too. AA to rescue again. Binge sex is that what they recommend then. Marathon sex session. Group orgies maybe.

Your take on AA make me wonder what they do on their meetings for sex addicts?

I don't dare to go to AA now. Your experience of them makes me not very motivated to get to know them here locally.

[Barefoot Bree]

See http://catb.org/jargon/html/H/ha-ha-only-serious.html

I'm being cynical, but I'm telling what I consider to be a truth. I think that AA does things I consider destructive, and it's not simply the God stuff. I think that there are a lot of things in this world that work that way, with a lot of accompanying lies.

I agree with Eric Berne. AA promotes alcoholism, as they define it. They publish rules on how you, too, can become an alcoholic. Once you get on the kick and get into the organization, they tell you that you will always be an alcoholic. They do their best to enfeeble you. Then they say, as I've pointed out, that if you have any alcohol at all, you have to wind up in the gutter.

This works in extremely well with the Christian notion of universal sin and redemption by some sort of Savior. As Berne points out, the payoff of ALCOHOLIC is not the drinking, which is merely an incidental pleasure. The payoff is the hangover, the time when the alcoholic gets to swear "never again." The more times you fall off the wagon, the more times you get the payoff. The stronger the commitment, the stronger the payoff. AA feeds both desires.

This game of alcoholism does not apply to people who drink alcohol normally, nor does it apply to people who use alcohol to self-medicate or people with a physical dependency on alcohol. The last is extremely dangerous. However, AA has so effectively controlled the very definition of alcoholism that it would be misleading to use the same term.


Wow. Just wow. I always thought AA to be addictive in itself, but never looked into it to discover the mechanism. That's just.... incredible.

Puts me in mind of the current research on gambling addiction. It's not just the high of winning, it's actually the low of losing that sets it all up.

[epepke]

Puts me in mind of the current research on gambling addiction. It's not just the high of winning, it's actually the low of losing that sets it all up.

Quite.