Do parallel worlds render existence pointless?

[rog]

If it could ever be known for certain that parallel worlds exist and are created as decisions are made or the universe branched off as events happen, as is my limited understanding of the idea, would this impact on how people live their lives? Would it matter to you? Would it effect the world at large? What if theoretically they could be contacted or movement between them was possible?

It's late now, but on the morrow I'll try to find some scifi references for fun, but if you feel like chucking some in first, be my guest.

[Jobar]

All The Myriad Ways by Larry Niven; arguably the first 'hard' sf story to use Many-Worlds theory as a basis.

Anyone who is interested in this topic should read that story.

[DanB]

Was there a point to existence, sans parallel worlds?

[BioBeing]

I don't think it would change much. I would still want to stay around and figure out what the results of the decisions I made on this world end up doing. Going to other worlds where I made different choices might be way too depressing - either if I ended up a bum, or wildly successful...

[Jobar]

In that Niven story, Crosstime, Inc. invented a way of travelling between alternate versions of Earth- every possible alternate history, from worlds where dinosaurs still roamed, to ones where the CSA won the US Civil War, to dead and radioactive remnants of nuclear wars. Numerous technologically advanced timelines engaged in a profitable trade of ideas.

But despite the benefits, there was a sudden upsurge of mysterious suicides and crimes; not just among the travelers between the timelines, but throughout the general population.

I won't post any total spoilers here, but Niven posited that knowing every possible change on every possible life has been rung somewhere in the multiverse meant that some people would do the most wildly unlikely things- because, well, why not? Somewhere, somewhen, some version of that person was going to do it; why not me?

My own answer to that question is easy- it's because the person I am here and now isn't the sort to go blow all my money in Vegas, or rob a bank, or try to kill everyone who's ever pissed me off- or kill myself over a momentary depression.

[Politesse]

No more so than the existence of past lives to a reincarnationist. This is still the only world you live on, and the only one you will ever really know. Even if you could travel to another, it would be different enough to you as not to matter; it would be "somewhere else", not "here".

[DanB]

TV series from the 90's, Sliders. (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0112167/)

Storyline

Quinn Mallory, while working on an anti-gravity machine, accidentally creates a portal to a parallel universe. Eventually, his friends and an unwilling participant accidentally get stuck traveling among parallel worlds, trying to survive, and learning that sliding can lead to fatal results. Meanwhile, among many changes in their group, they try to rescue the multiverse from the Kromagg Dynasty.

I also recall a short story I read from the 80's, where one civilization had developed technology to visit something like alternative timelines or parallel universes in the past to drain off their oil.

[Monad]

All The Myriad Ways by Larry Niven; arguably the first 'hard' sf story to use Many-Worlds theory as a basis.

Anyone who is interested in this topic should read that story.

Nah Mike Moorcock has been churning out stuff based on the multiverse since the 60's - it's the heart of all his output

[Jobar]

Oh, alternate history stories have been around for a long time; L. Sprague de Camp did The Wheels of If way back in 1940, and seems like A.E. Van Vogt did something along those lines even earlier. But Niven's story was perhaps the first to use it as a possible direct consequence of MWT. Moorcock is more fantasy, anyway.

[MattShizzle]

Why would it? What you feel and experience is still this you, whatever the parallel you feels and experiences is a different "you" and wouldn't affect this "you" unless you hear about it.

[Jobar]

Far from making existence pointless, it might be seen as making it totally meaningful. Every possible thing, person, and event exists. Every potential is fulfilled, somewhere and somewhen. It's another way to think of pantheism, even. :)

[MattShizzle]

AH is actually my favorite form of SF and one I've thought a lot about. My favorite author is Harry Turtledove.

[Loren Pechtel]

The problem is the SF view of alternate worlds isn't a good model of how it would actually work if true.

"Decisions" have no meaning at the level of particles of the universe. Throw a d6 and you don't get 6 universes as a result. Rather, the splits come from when an event could have gone different ways at the quantum level. What face ends up on top is a result of all of those previous events, not an event itself.

[rog]

Rather, the splits come from when an event could have gone different ways at the quantum level. What face ends up on top is a result of all of those previous events, not an event itself.

So in terms of people, if it were true, could one say that the individual is not responsible for their actions, as what appears to be a history of decisions that make up their life is just the path that they happened to travel in this universe due to underlying physics - wouldn't this leave the idea of individual choice apparently redundant?

I have an inkling that bell curves would come into this at some point.

[Loren Pechtel]

Rather, the splits come from when an event could have gone different ways at the quantum level. What face ends up on top is a result of all of those previous events, not an event itself.

So in terms of people, if it were true, could one say that the individual is not responsible for their actions, as what appears to be a history of decisions that make up their life is just the path that they happened to travel in this universe due to underlying physics - wouldn't this leave the idea of individual choice apparently redundant?

I have an inkling that bell curves would come into this at some point.

That's probably the case.

[David B]

But all parallel universes are more or (often) less reflections of Amber.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chronicles_of_Amber

David

[MattShizzle]

Ugghh that was a terrible AH series.

[Jobar]

The problem is the SF view of alternate worlds isn't a good model of how it would actually work if true.

"Decisions" have no meaning at the level of particles of the universe. Throw a d6 and you don't get 6 universes as a result. Rather, the splits come from when an event could have gone different ways at the quantum level. What face ends up on top is a result of all of those previous events, not an event itself.

True, but what that means is just that detectably different alternates are incredibly widely 'spaced' within the infinite multiverse. If MWT is correct, then all possible alternate histories exist; all physically possible decisions get made, but each alternate is surrounded by a 'cloud' of universes which are to all appearances identical.

[Clivedurdle]

What does meaning mean?

We are here in an amazingly complex uni/multiverse, with an incredibly complex mass of cells on our necks.

Is attempting to find meaning another attempt to put us at the centre of the universe?

Get over it.

[mood2]

Duncan Jones' (directed Moon) new film Source Code delves into this a bit, from the angle of a soldier (Jake Gyllenhall emoting his socks off) entering the residual memories of a man who died in a terrorist attack and becoming him for the last 8 mins of his life, but able to do what he wants, not just as an observer. Intriguing idea, lots of possibilities, but felt a bit flat I thought.

[mood2]

linky for rog :) http://www1.zmovie.tv/movies/view/source-code-2011

[rog]

linky for rog :) http://www1.zmovie.tv/movies/view/source-code-2011

I've seen him [thanks though], and this is the sort of thing I'm talking about - he doesn't stop the thing happening and save people as such, but just moves to a different reality.

[mood2]

in the case of the universe branching, does one move to a different reality, or would it be a different (identical) person living a different life in a different 'verse...

my first thought is that for all intents and purposes it's a different person in another time/place, so it shouldn't change how I live my life here. I don't think I'd even want to know - well of course I'd want to, but it would be a bad idea - if her life turned out better than mine I'd regret my choices, if worse I expect I'd feel bad for her, almost haunted.

[rog]

- if her life turned out better than mine I'd regret my choices, if worse I expect I'd feel bad for her, almost haunted.

If this multiverse idea is accurate, it would be all of those things.

[mood2]

Oh I see what you mean.

Well I don't understand the quantum reference above, but if we're saying a timeline theoretically splits at every moment when two or more different things could happen, does that mean a new physical universe is created each time? Or what?

[Clivedurdle]

How does Barbour End of Time fit?

http://www.platonia.com/


Time is not required in the equations - it can be cancelled out.

The End of Time, which is written for both the general reader and scientists. In it I argue that time is ultimately an illusion.

[Rodney Dobson]

My favourite quote comes from one of those who developed the original idea - that the idea seems counter-intuitive:

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qm-everett/#9

What place intuition should have in the issue is one I prefer conveniently to ignore. Along with a number of other scientific speculations which seem to belong more in the realm of sf than physics and which are, for the foreseeable future, not susceptible to experiment. Fun though!

However the idea of parallel universes has been around for a awfully long time. In one sense every time somebody writes a work of fiction they are creating one. I suppose that few events or the decision of few individuals would create one in reality - and the units in which one would specify the energy involved defeat my imagination
BUT - just suppose that a decision you yourself made created such a universe in which you yourself had a twin. One would, obviously, expect each individual would be unaware that he was descending a different trouser-leg. Consider the options if he DID know. Either he would be aware that his doppleganger had made a dreadful mistake and had to live with the consequences: or he would be aware that he was in a dreadful situation but his double had gotten away scot-free. Definitely NOT fun.....

[Ozymandias]

Everett's Many Worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics, which leads to these sort of parallel words is complete woo and shouldn't be taken seriously.

[toker]

^ Hey, I agree with Guy here. That's a somewhat notable event, I think. :)

[Rodney Dobson]

That SEP summary is hardly uncritical is it? And I did say "fun" you know!

[David B]

Oh I see what you mean.

Well I don't understand the quantum reference above, but if we're saying a timeline theoretically splits at every moment when two or more different things could happen, does that mean a new physical universe is created each time? Or what?

Yes, it does, and if the total energy of the universe is zero, as someone claimed and FUBG said he doubted if they knew what they were talking about, then why not?

But that multiverse scenario is not the only multiverse scenario in town.

And I don't know that that scenario is total woo, but it is a very speculative hypothesis at best if my reading of pop science is to be relied on.

David

[Rie]

Begorrah but we are so silly... the human species I mean. We fuck up our own world and without compunction we divert our attention not to getting things right but we actually believe in the concept of a parrallel universe! Truly I believe that waffling on about some of the stuff that's supposedly grabbing our attention here on Secular is just the product of absolutely uncreative bored minds.

[Rodney Dobson]

Be fair - the only purpose of science fiction (parallel worlds, other planets, NOT cinema space opera) is to be able to consider local problems: partly to isolate issues and (historically) to avoid be accused of un(fill in nationality of choice) activities.
And fun of course!

[mood2]

Oh I see what you mean.

Well I don't understand the quantum reference above, but if we're saying a timeline theoretically splits at every moment when two or more different things could happen, does that mean a new physical universe is created each time? Or what?

Yes, it does, and if the total energy of the universe is zero, as someone claimed and FUBG said he doubted if they knew what they were talking about, then why not?

But that multiverse scenario is not the only multiverse scenario in town.

And I don't know that that scenario is total woo, but it is a very speculative hypothesis at best if my reading of pop science is to be relied on.

David

If a new physical universe is created each time, while the original continues, then it sounds like a similar quandary to the 'Are you your connectome thread' to me :eek:


/bored uncreative mind

[rog]

If a new physical universe is created each time, while the original continues, then it sounds like a similar quandary to the 'Are you your connectome thread' to me :eek:


/bored uncreative mind

Wait until the two get linked together :evil:

[mood2]

:eek: :eek: