Split posts from 'Newlyweds in Alaska'

[Preno]

I'll never overcome the contempt for marrying someone 30 years younger with some people.That was not the crux of the issue, and you know that full well.
"Man travels to Philippines and brings back wife 30 years his junior."

That right there is all some people will see. But there are many different ways that little story can unfold. Human trafficking is a real thing. Working here at the Embassy in Cambodia I see it ALL the time. The problem is these cases can taint even legitimate relationships with regards to how people view them. I should know, my wife is Cambodian and I have certainly gotten those stares.

People who already think ill of your relationship are going to look for anything they can to confirm their belief. And when you or I start posting pics of our "hot Asian wives" that just reinforces those beliefs in their minds.The thing is, I don't recall anyone talking ill about you and your wife. There's probably a reason for that. One is the manner in which you present her, another is that unlike you, rlogan has very explicitly said that he had "gone shopping" to the Philippines for a new wife. I hardly think that's what you did.

In fact, you might well feel insulted if someone suggested you did, which why, regardless of what you think of rlogan, I don't think it's a good idea to project your relationship with your current wife onto rlogan's.

[Stout Drinker]

Lira is rlogan's wife. He has the receipt to prove it. The cost was one house built by his own alpha male hands. The man wanted a submissive compliant young wife and he bought one.

None of us has a right to judge it. The only thing motivating the criticism is because they are jealous of Lira's hotness.

Keep posting pictures of Lira Bob. It drives your critics crazy!!!

[Pendaric]

<Cool it guys please. We don't want this to turn in to a row about personal situations.>

[Hex]

The cost was one house built by his own alpha male hands.

Which when speaking anthropologically about cultures, we call bride-price.

The man wanted a submissive compliant young wife and he bought one.

No, in understanding bride-price, he may have compensated her parents with the house, but the house merely displays that he has met an economic threshold that allows him to be seen as a legitimate marriage partner. Depending on the culture, it would still be up to Lira or her parents as to who she marries out of the socially sanctioned legitimate choices.

Are you going to infer, then, that arranged marriages are also sales? What if no economic substance changes hands, but the parents still have to consent to the potential marriage partner's suitibility?

[rlogan]

Heh. No, I never used the term "shopping".

The only people who think of her as a commoddity are those straining themselves to characterize her that way. Why strain yourself so hard to do so preno? Or else retract.

Explain why you go out of your way to do it. Or acknowledge what you said is not true.

If you go back to posts from years ago at IIDB you will in fact find an exact description of Lira before I ever met her. In ten years I've been doing this extreme jungle expedition thing in seven different countries.

A single guy looking for a wife while he goes about his life is not unusual. Living in a cabin in the forest of interior Alaska is what's unusual, along with the whole jungle thing. I could have done the internet introduction approach, but I didn't need to, given the traveling I've been doing.

People who love to mischaracterize already know these things and Lone Wolf is right - the meme is just a lot more fun than the reality so it makes no difference to them.

Yea, Christina asked me to explain some things. So I am. I respect her. The "lulz" crowd just wants to toy with people. Always trying to put people on the defensive by mischaracterizing.

What demands explanation is why the strenuous efforts in that manner. I'm waiting. This board has some objectives I believe in. Let's see if it will allow harassment or if instead for development of understanding.

Lira's family lives on Mindanao Island. I met her in Manila - on Luzon Island. She had been there 18 months living on her own and working, sending money home to her family like a lot of Filipinas do. I know the culturally ignorant don't understand that.

So make fun of Lira for sending every penny she made back home to her family. Personally, I took that as something very attractive about her. Gosh what an amazing girl. How selfless.

Let's hear it from you stout drinker - what do you think about that?

The first communication we sent her family was that we had met, she was quitting her job, moving back home to enroll in college again in accounting, and we were going to take the long road to getting married. She was 19 at the time.

So who exactly did I buy her from? Her parents had nothing to do with the decision. So who? Preno and Stout Drinker know that.

So why are you guys relentless about pretending otherwise? The two of you need to explain. What are you up to here?

The idea of no choices for a girl this beautiful is pretty hilarious.

Because she lived in the largest city in the Philippines with a lot of foreigners, she met some, and had options with a lot more money than me. Not worth listing them but she is pretty derisive about the whole "I have a lot of money" line they played. Her list of priorities was no drinking or smoking or gambling or cheating on her (Filipino habits) and yes - the family support is a cultural obligation. Any potential husband would either have to understand that or they would not be eligible to her.

Envy does dictate the contemptuous "you cheated" characterizations for some, or that husband and wife is really a prostitute/john relationship. Why strive so hard to mischaracterize it this way? I'd like an explanation. Husbands here in the U.S. provide for their families. Calling them johns and the wives prostitutes is just as stupid.

I built a house for her family last year, and yes literally with my own hands. How that becomes a shameful thing is just bizarre. It shows what kind of selfishness a person operates under in their own way of thinking. This is my family. I love them. I had a lot of fun doing it. Her father is a mason. We built it together.

I didn't do it in order to get their permission. That is a myth. Explain why you are promoting the myth. Explain why you choose to view this as her being a commoddity sold by her parents when in fact it is just something I do for my family.

If you take your daughter to the hospital when she gets sick, I can accuse you of trying to buy her love. That is just as stupid as saying I am trying to buy my family's permission.

I've been under demands to explain. Now let's hear some explaining by the people mischaracterizing things.


I find their culture exotic and intriguing. Something that I find attractive. It takes a lot of ignorance and bigotry to look at another culture and demean it. There is no bride-price in her culture. There is an obligation to help the family so deeply ingrained in her that if I tried to interfere in it she would not have accepted me. It isn't the same thing as a bride price. They laughed at me when I said I was making a dowry. It's been fun.

Well again, we'll see if the board is about harassment or if it is about understanding.

I'll accept that I bragged on her being beautiful. So I apologize. For me it is just too cute to have a lovely girl running chain saws, driving heavy equipment, snow machines, etc.

Cheers!

[Preno]

Heh. No, I never used the term "shopping".

The only people who think of her as a commoddity are those straining themselves to characterize her that way. Why strain yourself so hard to do so preno? Or else retract.Instead of retracting, I shall quote:
He pretty much openly admits to going shopping, for Christ's sake. And to the fact that any American can do the same in a third world country, regardless of how much of a slob they are. Sure, you can argue that there's nothing wrong with that. But arguing that it's not the case or that we have no right to point out the obvious is pretty futile. (http://www.rantsnraves.org/showthread.php?p=293249#post293249)
I find it bizarre that I stated precisely what I have done, and people seem to think that repeating it back to me is some kind of revelation. OMG - you went shopping for what you said you wanted, just like you said you would! (http://www.rantsnraves.org/showthread.php?p=294537#post294537)

[rlogan]

Sure, Notta - happy to consider that.

She won't register. I can't make her. Three forums so far and the only thing she apparantly wants to do is use my account rarely. I think I might have registered her at one but she never used it to post. The rock-throwers repeating this meme about being compliant are just wrong. She's posted one sentence in the introductory thread here so far.

And Preno - see how relentless you are in mischaracterizing. It was your term (meaning your whole crowd of rock-throwers), not mine. And I am clearly repeating it back to you in that quote mine in italics to emphasize exactly that - it is what you are saying, not me.

Thank you for showing that. Because what it proves is how obsessed you guys are in attempting to mischaracterize.

I indicated I would find my wife just as I have done. You want to call it shopping. Only because you want to imbue it with the human trafficking insinuation.

That needs to be explained. Your obsession with mischaracterizing it in that way.


You don't quote from my original IIDB posts, but I know you have them because you have quoted them elsewhere.

Explain why you tried to create a misimpression with this quote mine instead of my original posts at IIDB. Hmmm?


IIRC, it was my disagreement with you over the whole "Pick up artist" approach to women that gave rise to this wrath.

That now I have been "busted" (yawn) with marrying Lira, I have no right to disagree with what I feel actually does genuinely treat females as less than human.

Of course, let's also muddy the waters by bringing up any other character assassinations we can and try to put me on the defensive, right?

Because that's what this is about - not any kind of understanding. Well you have your sites for that.

[Preno]

You don't quote from my original IIDB posts, but I know you have them because you have quoted them elsewhere.

Explain why you tried to create a misimpression with this quote mine instead of my original posts at IIDB. Hmmm?I am not trying to create any misimpression, I am merely supporting my claim that you yourself admitted that you went shopping. Which my quote supports. Incidentally, it links back to the RnR thread, so anyone can read it for themselves.

And I don't want to imbue anything with human trafficking insinuations, it's quite obvious there was no human trafficking involved.

ETA: which I think concludes my participation itt.

[Jobar]

This thread has been re-opened. It will be moderated very closely. If you have criticisms, keep them polite and reasonable; personal attacks will be removed.

[JamesBannon]

Rlogan, I think you misunderstand Preno. You have to admit that, in some of your posts about Lira, there is a distinct air of Lira as "property". This is anathema to many, myself included. If Lira made her choice freely, with no coercion from either yourself or her family, then that is fair enough I guess, though I still think she should have married someone closer to her own age, if at all. In the current crop of photographs, she seems happy enough and looks as if she is coping well. That's good. I wish her luck.

[Anne]

though I still think she should have married someone closer to her own age,

too bad it's her choice.

I'm sure my in laws think Hex should have married a good Protestant country girl as well.

What we on the outside think makes no difference to what works for the individuals in the relationship.

[JamesBannon]

though I still think she should have married someone closer to her own age,

too bad it's her choice.

I'm sure my in laws think Hex should have married a good Protestant country girl as well.

What we on the outside think makes no difference to what works for the individuals in the relationship.
Of course it's her choice, I didn't say it wasn't. I just don't think it is especially wise. However, I hope her choice works out well for her.

[Anne]

sorry--- I was trying to point out that each one of us in a relationship is in a relationship that some other people find abhorrent.

I know my inlaws pity my husband. I know I feel bad for a friend's wife.

But the thing it, it works for them. If she wanted an older man (and many women do) she got what she wanted---only an active one, not a couch potato football watching one.

[Preno]

Oh I think it may be quite wise for her. It may in fact be the best she can do, unfortunately. But then again, sweatshops are the best many people can do, too, but no-one except hardcore libertarians would take that as evidence that they're fine and dandy.

(in before someone says I'm comparing rlogan to a sweatshop owner)

[Anne]

Would a libertarian say that?

[Anne]

oh, adn don't compare rlogan to a sweatshop owner!

whippersnapper.

[Preno]

Would a libertarian say that?A hardcore libertarian would. Hell, some even advocate "voluntary slavery".

[JamesBannon]

Would a libertarian say that?A hardcore libertarian would. Hell, some even advocate "voluntary slavery".
This. And some would also advocate that it's OK for families to sell their children.

[Anne]

ok.... vomit...

[Stout Drinker]

When someone introduces his wife and the first thing he mentions is her weight that person objectifies his wife.

When someone speaks of rewarding their wife when they behave by having sex with them multiple times a day, it is downright creepy.

Posting dozens upon dozens of pictures shows gross immaturity its kind of like hey look at my hot wife. Every woman wants to be here and every guy wants to be like me. She's married to me because I am such a manly man. I won her!!! She's mine!!! Its the maturity of a high schooler who makes out on the bus so everyone knows how in love they are. It is really beyond parody.

On a semi related note, many guys like to brag about the women they have sex. Its kind of normal and expected but imagine a guy talking about all the hot chicks who find him irresistible. He talks about all the kinky things They you find out that the guy is a client of a high end brothel and the chicks are the providers. Now I don't have a problem with prostitution nor am I comparing rlogan and lira to a john and prostitute. However the bragging and bravado of rlogan in this case strikes me as patently ridiculous.

[Cliché Guevara]

He's happy and in love! Who cares if it makes him "immature"? If it offends you so much, then quite reading, SD.

[RBH]

Having no history with this dispute, I'm trying to get oriented. I read this above:I am not trying to create any misimpression, I am merely supporting my claim that you yourself [rlogan] admitted that you went shopping. Which my quote supports. Incidentally, it links back to the RnR thread, so anyone can read it for themselves.Addressing LoneWolf, Preno wroteOne is the manner in which you present her, another is that unlike you, rlogan has very explicitly said that he had "gone shopping" to the Philippines for a new wife.And then later, when asked for corroboration of that accusation, Preno, quoting himself, not rlogan, wrote (http://www.secularcafe.org/showthread.php?p=20129&#post20129)He pretty much openly admits to going shopping, for Christ's sake. And to the fact that any American can do the same in a third world country, regardless of how much of a slob they are. Sure, you can argue that there's nothing wrong with that. But arguing that it's not the case or that we have no right to point out the obvious is pretty futile.that linked to an RnR thread. So I trudged over to RnR and read the linked post. The only occurrence of "shopping" is Preno's use of the word, not in the rlogan quotes Preno provided from IIDB. It's at the very best a strained interpretation of the rlogan quotations Preno provided there. As I read the RnR post Preno linked to, it's pretty damned weak support for Preno's claim, and provides zero support for his use of quotation marks around "gone shopping" above. Preno attributed to rlogan Preno's own words, not rlogan's, so the quotation marks are deceptive, a misrepresentation of rlogan's posts.

I think the most appropriate quotation in that whole mess is this from rlogan:It's also nobody's business but theirs what motivates both parties.Consenting adults and all, y'know.

[Preno]

Well, yes, I said that that's what he did, and rlogan happily admitted that it was. When I say, "hey you did X" and someone replies "yes, that's exactly what I did", it's perfectly normal to say that the person admitted to doing X.

[David B]

It strikes me that there is lots of scope for misunderstanding the word 'shopping' in this context.

A difference between using a word literally and using it metaphorically, and assuming (falsely) that another person in a conversation (particularly an internet conversation, where non verbal cues are sparse).

It would, I think, be natural use of English for a conversation to run something like:-

'Have you found yourself a wife yet?' 'No, I'm still shopping around'

Or 'How are you doing?' 'Getting over X slowly - I'll soon be in the market for a new girl/boyfriend, but not quite yet'.

Not literally shopping, no literal marketplace.

rlogan denies using the word, and if the best you can come up with is an acquiescence to you using the word, I'd guess he wasn't the guy who first brought it up.

But, as I say, in any case, the use of such a word doesn't imply a literal purchase.

Nor does it preclude going along with local custom, if one does become attached to someone.

David

[Cliché Guevara]

So?

Some people go to the pub to 'pull'. Some go to the ends of the earth in search of someone to share their life with. Some go to organised events that are specifically designed to match potential suitors with each other. So what, if all involved parties are adult, consenting and, ultimately, happy?

[Cliché Guevara]

And what David B said. That, too. :)

[JamesBannon]

I still think you're missing Preno's point. I've read just about every thread on the subject on all the boards, and there is more than a hint of "entitlement" and "ownership" in most of them. That's what people are objecting to, in reality.

[Anne]

has visions of what house hunting would have been like if it had been more like real hunting...

Honey, I love the bedroom in this one. Take it down gently--- Mind the Windows!

/derail

[Preno]

Not literally shopping, no literal marketplace.

...

But, as I say, in any case, the use of such a word doesn't imply a literal purchase.No-one is saying that Lira is rlogan's slave and that he literally bought her from her parents. "Shopping" in this context means that he travelled to an economically impoverished region with the express purpose of finding himself a young, sexually attractive and obedient wife whom he would make in offer she and her family would, due to their economic situation, find hard to refuse. That's what I meant by shopping, I made it clear in the original thread.

One can only speculate about the reasons why he was incapable of finding himself a suitable partner in his own culture, but maybe his attitude towards women may have something to do with it:
The fat, ugly women in interior Alaska are arrogant because it is a simple numbers game. They know they can dump one guy and move off to the next in the same day. (link) (http://www.rantsnraves.org/showthread.php?p=306125#post306125)Ironically, rlogan then went on to play the same "numbers game" in Asia (except with the advantage of being economically much better off than the vast majority of local suitors).

Also:
It's one reason why her attitude blows away that for the arrogant pigs of Interior Alaska. The other factor is cultural. Despite being stubborn and being her own person, she also has a culturally inculcated view about the woman's role in a relationship. One I prefer.Please tell me this isn't sheer misogyny/machism.
rlogan denies using the word, and if the best you can come up with is an acquiescence to you using the word, I'd guess he wasn't the guy who first brought it up.Yes, obviously, he didn't say "hey guys, guess who I just bought" himself.

As for this whole "adult and consenting" thing, basing morality on voluntariness is a rather primitive view. Unless you think that sweatshops are okay because the people work there voluntarily, you cannot consistently argue that just because they're both consenting adults, everything is okay.

Voluntariness is always voluntariness wrt a set of options. Disregarding what those options are and just saying "oh well, it's voluntary, so it's okay" is simplistic in the extreme and leads to blatantly incorrect conclusions. That particular argument fails for exactly the same reasons the voluntaristic argument for capitalism does. It's either circular or trivially false.

[Brother Daniel]

"Shopping" in this context means that he travelled to an economically impoverished region with the express purpose of finding himself a young, sexually attractive and obedient wife whom he would make in offer she and her family would, due to their economic situation, find hard to refuse. That's what I meant by shopping, I made it clear in the original thread.
It's not clear, however, that all of those implications of the word "shopping" were recognized by rlogan when he confirmed that "shopping" was an appropriate description for what he had done. (You are, of course, quite right to point out (contra RBH) that rlogan did confirm it.)
As for this whole "adult and consenting" thing, basing morality on voluntariness is a rather primitive view. Unless you think that sweatshops are okay because the people work there voluntarily, you cannot consistently argue that just because they're both consenting adults, everything is okay.

Voluntariness is always voluntariness wrt a set of options. Disregarding what those options are and just saying "oh well, it's voluntary, so it's okay" is simplistic in the extreme and leads to blatantly incorrect conclusions. That particular argument fails for exactly the same reasons the voluntaristic argument for capitalism does. It's either circular or trivially false.
Well said.

[Thalia Thinks]

But, as I say, in any case, the use of such a word doesn't imply a literal purchase.No-one is saying that Lira is rlogan's slave and that he literally bought her from her parents. "Shopping" in this context means that he travelled to an economically impoverished region with the express purpose of finding himself a young, sexually attractive and obedient wife whom he would make in offer she and her family would, due to their economic situation, find hard to refuse. That's what I meant by shopping, I made it clear in the original thread.
[/QUOTE]

I've been watching all from the sidelines and would just like to add one little thought before I go back into my corner.

I don't think highly of rlogan, to put it nicely, but I think it's important to speak carefully about Lira. I think he went to Asia looking for an obedient GIRL to play the nice little wifey poo game with. But, I'm not so sure that is what he got. It's easy to lump her into a role of young, ignorant, impoverished savage that would do anything to get out of a situation. I think it may be easy to view her as an object since he presents her as one but it's very important to remember that she is a real live person. If we speak of her as an object, than we are as bad as he is.

On that note, I realize any discussion of this will be hurtful to her in some way because we are bashing her husband (and in my mind rightfully so) but there is a thin line between being disgusted with his actions and painting her as a stupid person.

[Barefoot Bree]

As far as I'm concerned, rlogan only did what men and women both have done since the dawn of civilization. He couldn't find what he wanted in a mate locally, so he went elsewhere. It just so happens that he had to go further, in miles, actions, and culture-crossing, than most people do.

Do NOT overestimate the availability of potential mates in Alaska. I've been there; have you? Outside the 2 or 3 military bases (no great pools there, either), to say that the pickings are slim is itself a laughable understatement.

And so he likes young, submissive, pretty women. So what? I think it's a damn good thing that some men do, otherwise all the young, submissive, pretty women in the world would be pretty hard up to find a mate themselves.

All your cutting on rlogan for liking the type enough to go to the lengths he did to find and woo said maiden is easily translated to cutting on Lira for being what she is, no more and no less.

And no, I don't think the whole consenting adult thing is overstated. It is exactly what happened. rlogan wanted a certain type of woman, he was willing to adapt to the culture she came from in order to woo her, she made up her own mind and chose him over at least one other wealthier suitor. That's the end of it.

I'm sick of these implications that because rlogan and Lira have different standards and methods that they are somehow wrong or disgusting or sinister or just "icky". Get over yourselves. Go live in the Philippines for a while and get some good healthy culture shock.

[Pendaric]

(This is an amalgamation of a few posts I made on the topic of this type of relationship when the subject came up at TR, so it may not read entirely fluently)

I can understand the distaste for the situation, but I tend to live on the basis that people should be allowed to live their own lives. A lot of what is being said could be interpreted as 'Lira should not be allowed to make her own decisions because she doesn't know what's best for her.'

She's over 18. Whether you agree with the culture she was brought up in or not, she has the right to choose this relationship if she wants to do so, and whilst there may have been familial pressures I'm not seeing anything that suggests she was coerced in to it against her will.

Lots of people have to do lots of stuff that ideally they wouldn't have to do in order to survive in this world. There are plenty of people performing menial jobs which they hate and would not do if their circumstances did not force them in to them. They choose to do them because they feel the rewards gained are worth the discomfort involved in doing them.

My difficulty with this situation is that whilst I can understand the concerns about potential exploitation, I really dislike preventing consenting adults coming to whatever arrangement they want between themselves. I don't see how these relationships can be regulated against without curtailing the right to self-determination in relationships.

If I were a third world woman I can very well see that I would want to enter in to one of these relationships, and I wouldn't necessarily be too pleased about people telling me I couldn't make up my own mind about what I wanted to do.

I don't support coercion of anyone in to a situation they would not have chosen freely. So if they are being forced in to it by family or by threat of physical violence, that's something I would oppose. However, making a decision because of general poverty is a different issue, and I believe that people should be free to improve their financial lot by this avenue if they want to do so.

It is basically a job that is being offered. I don't for a second believe that love plays any factor in 99% of this type of relationship - this may be the exception as all indications are that both parties are besotted with each other. The basic deal is a job as maid and concubine in exchange for financial reward and the acquisition of citizenship rights in a first world country. I don't think there is necessarily anything wrong with that provided that both parties have entered in to the arrangement of their own free will.

To those who have a problem with this situation, what precisely are you objecting to? There seem to me to be a few core issues, and I'm curious as to which one in particular offends people. Is it:

1) The disparity in ages.

2) The disparity in wealth.

3) The immigration issue whereby the woman is moving to an unfamiliar culture.

I believe that consenting adults should be free to form whatever relationships they like. If you have an issue with any of the above, do you believe that:

1) There should be maximum age gaps between couples.

2) People should not marry outside of their social classes.

3) People should not immigrate to a new country if they marry a foreigner.

[JamesBannon]

I'm not, necessarily, objecting to any of those things, and, again, you're missing the point. The point is that, in a series of threads Rlogan has presented Lira as if she were a piece of property. That's my objection. It's like the Muslim male who describes his partner as a "jewel". Whenever I hear that, my first thought is "so, you liken your partner to a piece of polished stone who's only value is the value you assign to her". That's the basis of my objection.

[Anne]

You know, those are just words.

If I call Hex my honey bunny* it's not because I think of him as something that tastes sweet or fluffy. It's because that's a term.

Something we're forgetting here is that we can't see what's happening on the other side of the monitor. Words mean nothing, actions mean all.





*it's a holdover from Pulp Fiction, actually. ;)

[JamesBannon]

Words convey meaning, as do pictures.

[Anne]

yeah, but, IME words mean shit.

In relationships.

Actions mean all.

It was your 'jewel' comment that hit my button. It's a cliche, meant to explain something quickly. It's not evil, the way you are taking it.

if I call my son my sunshine, it's not because I think he makes my plants grow, you know.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

[Brother Daniel]

I'm more than happy to take rlogan at his word, about what's really going on (and what really went on back in the Phillipines) between him and Lira. I have no problem with it, and I can only wish them all the best.

But I do object to the accusations, directed at Preno and Stout (among others), of "willful misrepresentation". The more sinister version of events -- with overtones of human trafficking -- is something that rlogan himself has apparently gone out of his way to promote on RnR. If that version, or some milder variation, keeps circulating, he has only himself to blame.

[Anne]

the fact that he continues to fan it is also his problem.

But, Thalia's right. Feeling we have towards logan should not affect how we feel towards Lira as a person.

Of course, with no person there, the stereotype has to fill in.

Of course, that's not really something we should be doing, either.

But dammit, there are a bunch of old biddies who have nothing better to do than think about rlogan's sex life, I guess.

I see a bunch of ethical and manner things here, and most of them are too wrapped up in this one case to be discussed...

[Pendaric]

I'm not, necessarily, objecting to any of those things, and, again, you're missing the point. The point is that, in a series of threads Rlogan has presented Lira as if she were a piece of property. That's my objection. It's like the Muslim male who describes his partner as a "jewel". Whenever I hear that, my first thought is "so, you liken your partner to a piece of polished stone who's only value is the value you assign to her". That's the basis of my objection.

I don't take that particular reading from the threads I have seen. I think rlogan is proud of his wife, and I don't see anything wrong with that. I'm proud of my wife and my daughter. See the use of 'my' there. That doesn't mean that I view them as possessions, but I am proud of their achievements.

[RBH]

Words convey meanings, as do pictures.Fixed it for you. Words are not unambiguously tied to a single meaning, as I'm sure you know, so it makes sense to consider the multiple meanings of words as well as the context-dependent connotations they may have.

I'm not understanding the issue any better. JamesBannon wroteI still think you're missing Preno's point. I've read just about every thread on the subject on all the boards, and there is more than a hint of "entitlement" and "ownership" in most of them. That's what people are objecting to, in reality.So it's not so much the situation, but rlogan's (possibly clumsy) way of describing it that's at issue?

Or is the claim that rlogan (or any western man who marries a third-world woman) by virtue of the difference in cultures as well as differences in individual personalities has expectations that he might not hold about a western wife and that's somehow immoral or unacceptable or bad?

Or is it that some (many?) western men who, because non-western wives have a different cultural view of the social functions of marriage, specifically seek them out because of that difference, and that's somehow inappropriate or even bad?

All three have come up in places, and it's hard keeping sorted out just what's being objected to.

[frazier]

Words convey meaning, as do pictures.But the meaning is inferred by the reader, not always accurately.

"She's a good one, I think I'll keep her." Referring to my wife. Make of it what you will, in the absence of inflection, body language, etc.

I think Rlogan has been honest with us all along. I have no evidence that he has been otherwise with Lira and her family. As Bree said, get over yourselves.

[JamesBannon]

So it's not so much the situation, but rlogan's (possibly clumsy) way of describing it that's at issue?
I don't know about anyone else, so I won't speak for them, but that's my basic objection. He has presented Lira as if she were a trophy, not a human being. However, if she's in any way like any other young woman I've met, she'll assert herself pretty quickly, and perhaps in ways that Rlogan may not like.

ETA: BTW, RBH, please don't quote & then alter my words. It annoys the hell out of me.

[rlogan]

Oh, I see there is another thread where the opening is the assumption that I went to the third world to buy a wife and I'm supposed to defend that.

I've been traveling for more than a decade now in remote jungles doing some pretty crazy stuff. Shooting alligators, catching anacondas, leaopords, tracking jungle tigers, etc.

We meet wives doing the things we do. You go to shopping centers and sip lattes. I go to siberia to hunt with a three time olympic gold medalist wrestler and train at the Korkin school. Or whatever.

I met Lira after returning from staying with a former commander of the NPA in the Kalinga province of the Philippines in a mountain jungle village that fought the Chico River Dam project. Turned my mountain bike into the rental place and went across the street to buy a diet coke. There she was. Just working and going about her life as I went about mine. I asked her out, and she turned me down flat. I was pretty muddy. But I persisted and here we are.

The main part of that three month trip was in Laos looking for Jungle tigers. I ran into some trouble with six men that surrounded our party with machetes and had a discussion on whether to kill us and take our money. This was the first trip I did not do alone. I took a friend who was on the same national championship wrestling team in college and only agreed to take him if he trained hard before we went.

Yes, absolutely I knew I would meet my wife just as I have. Moreover that her attitude would be a hell of a lot more pleasant than interior Alaska where there are two military bases with thousands of young single men in a very small population.

The important thing to the rock throwers is to pretend that meeting Lira was exclusively some deal where I went to buy a wife. It was ten years of doing what I do that eventually resulted in this.

It's just a stupid question to ask "why can't he get one where he is?" Because duh - that's exactly what I did. I am either on the edge of, or in the heart of the wilderness here in Alaska or else the same kind of remote place in the third world.

You can't find jungles in France. Or Italy. I did go to those places with an ex-wife and I hated them. The other things on my list are places like the Gobi desert, parts of Africa, etc.

The problem for me now is how to continue what I am doing without unnecessarily endangering her life. I've crashed bush planes twice here in Alaska and the last one just about killed me. Just hiking in the wilderness out back can get you killed if you make a mistake. I've been held up by the shining path guerillas, escaped river pirates, and seen some awful, awful things. People dying of diseases, snake bites, infections, etc.

We have agreed to do a hunting trip to Africa. Not a safari deal, but one we plan ourselves like I always do. She can't leave here for two years because of immigration requirements, and that's no problem because she needs a couple years just learning how to get along in the wilderness.

This "can't find one so he went elsewhere" is just stupid. I found her like everyone else does - just going about my life. Mine is a lot different from yours.

Look at the pictures I post about our life here. I live in a cabin in the woods. I go to town maybe once a month and buy bulk food. There are no bars here, no clubs, no shopping centers, nothing. Forests and rivers. Big animals.

And where I travel I want the same sorts of things. I sleep on the bare ground, hunt my food, try to live like the people do there - learn their ways.

If you are really interested and aren't just looking for recreational contempt then read full posts of mine here instead of out-of-context quote mines cited by people that are mad at me because I disagree with the "pick-up artist" approach to women.

I have always met women just living the way I do. In my early life I was a sports champion and so I met sports champion girls. Now I am a wilderness and jungle expedition nut so I have a girl that cooked on an open fire most of her life.

Yes, I am extremely proud of her - but thinking of her as property is your assumption, not mine. It won't make a bit of difference protesting against that characterization because look how strenuous the efforts are from the people that actually view her that way as if it were my view.

It is very clear that preno and stout drinker and others who classify her as an ignorant slug with no choices in life but to be a slave are the bigoted mysogenists. Look how much effort they expend to characterize her as only that way instead of an adult that is capable of making her own decisions.

Heh. In the pictures she looks happy. As if there were any doubt that she is happy.


Well enough. Carry on without me because you know this business of defending why you love your wife and why she loves you is indeed none of anyone else's business, and the opportunity for rampant mischaracterizations is too great. It has been three web boards and an enormous amount of harassment from people that do not like me for other reasons and have every incentive to mischaracterize this exactly as they have.

Start me on the defensive, defending the indefensible, repeating enough times "bought her bought her bought her" and then pretending that I am the one saying that. etc.

The R&R threads contain a tremendous amount of trolling, and quote mines from there are especially problemmatic except for our opening posts together (Lira and mine).

I will now carry on about my life and live free of the busybodies with an agenda.

Cheers.

[Preno]

Brother Daniel: valid point.

Thalia: I don't see Lira as a "young, ignorant, impoverished savage". In fact, I don't know her at all, so I wouldn't like to idly speculate about what she's like. I do, however, think it's undeniable that money / standards of living (for her and her family) / Green Card played a very significant role in her decision, not rlogan's personality, charming as it may (or may not) be. Rlogan himself has said something to the effect that the Filipinos were almost queuing for him.

Barefoot Bree: no, I haven't been to Alaska, but I'm fairly sure that it isn't populated with "fat, ugly, arrogant" women. I think that's a fairly transparent rationalization of rlogan's inability to relate to women. If someone needs to use his economic position in order to find a suitable partner, surely that says something about him?

Pendaric: I'm pretty sure I've answered that post in some thread or other already, so I'll just say that I'm not talking about rights. I have the right to act like a complete asshole, too, but that doesn't mean when someone calls me on it, I'm gonna go "oh, but I have the right to act like that!"

I am glad you agree that "the basic deal is a job as maid and concubine in exchange for financial reward and the acquisition of citizenship rights in a first world country," though.

RBH: I've already explained what I have a problem with. It's the fact that "he travelled to an economically impoverished region with the express purpose of finding himself a young, sexually attractive and obedient wife whom he would make in offer she and her family would, due to their economic situation, find hard to refuse" - and that he presented it as an epic Hollywood love story. It's not that they are from different cultures or that there is an age gap between them (although the age gap makes it more obvious). As I said, no-one was bad-mouthing LoneWolf because he married a Cambodian woman.

ETA:
It is very clear that preno and stout drinker and others who classify her as an ignorant slug with no choices in life but to be a slave are the bigoted mysogenists.
rampant mischaracterizations...
Well enough. Carry on without me because you know this business of defending why you love your wife and why she loves you is indeed none of anyone else's business, and the opportunity for rampant mischaracterizations is too great. It has been three web boards and an enormous amount of harassment from people that do not like me for other reasons and have every incentive to mischaracterize this exactly as they have.What makes you think people don't like you for "other reasons"? I always thought your stories from Alaska were pretty cool and I'm not aware of having had any quarrels with you prior to this Lira thing.

[Pendaric]

RBH: I've already explained what I have a problem with. It's the fact that "he travelled to an economically impoverished region with the express purpose of finding himself a young, sexually attractive and obedient wife whom he would make in offer she and her family would, due to their economic situation, find hard to refuse" - and that he presented it as an epic Hollywood love story. It's not that they are from different cultures or that there is an age gap between them (although the age gap makes it more obvious). As I said, no-one was bad-mouthing LoneWolf because he married a Cambodian woman.

In the post above yours, rlogan specifically explains this in a different context, which makes sense to me at least.

[Anne]

I did go to those places with an ex-wife and I hated them. The other things on my list are places like the Gobi desert, parts of Africa, etc.


Ok, was this (http://talkrational.org/showpost.php?p=108933&postcount=142)a joke then or a lie?

Because you just don't add up.

[Barefoot Bree]

OK, rlogan, I apologize for placing the emphasis wrong. I had believed that the primary purpose of your trips was to find a mate; I see now that you're actually in the same category as the multitudes of GI's who come home from overseas tours with a "war bride". And there's even LESS wrong with that!

Preno, PLEASE. Learn something about Alaska, already. It has an area of 663,268 square miles, and a population of 686,293. That means an average density of about one person per square mile. Which is itself misleading, because approx. half that population lives in Anchorage, which means the rest of the state has about one person per TWO square miles. By contrast, the Czech Republic has a population density of 341 per spare mile. Think about that for a bit. There are twice as many people in the Prague metro area alone (1.2 million) than in the entire state of Alaska. (Prague's density is 6440 people per square mile. Compared to Alaska's one-half person.)

No, not all of the females therein would be "fat, ugly, arrogant", (though a lot of them are, from my memory) but I'm quite content with the idea that the few, the vanishingly small few available women in rlogan's vicinity would not be to his taste for one reason or another. Why is that so hard to believe?

[Brother Daniel]

@Anne: I assume it was a joke. Not a very good one, though.

[Preno]

Thank you for bringing me up to date with the demographics of Alaska, BB, but I never doubted that there are relatively few available women there. I doubted the fact that Alaskan women are fat, ugly and arrogant. Anyway, I don't understand how the scarcity of women in Alaska somehow justifies using the economic misfortune of others in order to find himself a bride.

[Barefoot Bree]

I'm sure that if you were in a similar situation, having run though (mentally at least) the available population in your home vicinity and finding no one compatible, that you'd have less than complementary things to say in summing up the rejects, as well.

Why place so much emphasis on that one phrase?

(And please, we have at least three "BB"s running around here. Call me Bree. :D )

[epepke]

To those who have a problem with this situation, what precisely are you objecting to? There seem to me to be a few core issues, and I'm curious as to which one in particular offends people. Is it:

1) The disparity in ages.

2) The disparity in wealth.

3) The immigration issue whereby the woman is moving to an unfamiliar culture.


OK. I've tried to stay out of this, but I've just read the link that Preno kindly supplied. I've read the entire thread, twice. I feel like I was subjected to some kind of Phildickian nightmare, and I am trying to resist the compulsion to tear my eyes out with grapefruit spoons, but anyway.

I consider jamming on rlogan for the details of his relationship with Lira as he describes it to be somewhere between extremely uncool and scurrilous. There's no reason to go into this, because it's been said already.

However, there's this history thingie. Back in the IIDB days, when rlogan wasn't getting laid as much, he was one of the most obnoxiously judgmental posters. I remember this clearly. There were some threads asking about how men can attract women. I always respond to these threads because I was on the alt.support.shyness group for more than a decade. I began this when I was cripplingly shy around women. I made a promise to myself that I would be completely honest, and I kept it, even as I learned some things that were not exactly flattering toward men or women. rlogan got up my nose. I expect this. He did it in a particularly self-advertising way, insisting that he did well with women just because he was such a great guy. I understand this, and I understand how this form of self-advertising works. At about the same time, he was going after some teenies on the group. At this time, Placebo Messiah was his ally, though even he eventually realized that rlogan was a clown.

So there is already background against which rlogan's traveling to a third-world country to get a bride can be compared, and a reason to realize that turnabout is fair play. However, it gets better.

Let's see. There was the time when he said that Lira had run off with Bobby Pacquiao. And then, with nary so much as an episode about last season was a dream, she was back and he was talking about teaching her how to fly. There were his constant statements about how all the "townies" were ugly and fat, and that's why he didn't want them. Which is kind of funny because he lives just outside Fairbanks, though he weaves this huge "mountain man" mystique about himself. There were the IRC logs of how he flirted with what he thought were little chippies (one was Placebo Messiah pretending) and asking them for pictures at the time when he said that he didn't even look at women other than Lira. Oh, even better. He decided that he would post pictures of other members girlfriends to show that they were uglier than his little "hottie." He even posted a nude picture of a rather obese woman to demonstrate what he thought all the "townies" looked like. Only, unbeknownst to him, the pictures fed him were all of actresses from The Office teevee show.

But enough, my gorge is rising. Don't trust me. Read it. Do some research. It's all on record. And then come back and tell us if your obtuseness is appropriate.

I'm going to bug you on this, because in this new forum, the Bob and Lira soap opera has been metastasized, by you moderators, twice, and I'm getting sick and tired of seeing new atheist fora go down the tubes with the same names as moderators.

[epepke]

Do NOT overestimate the availability of potential mates in Alaska. I've been there; have you? Outside the 2 or 3 military bases (no great pools there, either), to say that the pickings are slim is itself a laughable understatement.

Oh, great "Bob." Not you, too! Oh well.

If Alaska is so bad for women, then how is it that when I was sent to Alaska for a 2.5 week business trip, I searched the internet and found three who wanted to meet me?

One was a bit of a drive, and another had just had a wisdom tooth extracted, which would have put a damper on things, but I met the third, and she was great. It came in handy when the hotel heating broke down due to the cold weather, and I wanted another place to stay.

I asked this question to many of the women I met there, and I got a consistent answer: "The odds are good, but the goods are odd." And if you can't see a bit of truth in that when you read what rlogan writes, I don't think I can help you.

[Barefoot Bree]

So great. You found a nice woman there. Does that mean that every guy would find someone who was a good match somewhere within the borders of Fairbanks Alaska?

So Bob may be... odd. Who isn't? Maybe even odder than most. So what? Maybe so odd that none of the girls in Fairbanks were a good match. Wow. That's damning. Hang him! Oh, and there's the examples of him boasting wild things and posting inappropriate crap on the internet. Holy shit, nobody else has ever done that. Yeah, he's sure a bad person.

If the Bob and Lira Soap Opera continues to spread its poison, it's because people keep following him around and dragging him through the mud.

[Anne]

If the Bob and Lira Soap Opera continues to spread its poison, it's because people keep following him around and dragging him through the mud.

I disagree. I think it's partially because logan hands out buckets of mud then says 'bet you can't hit me!'

Not that people don't follow him around, but he is hardly innocent of inciting it.

IMO, both sides are wrong.

Any way we can warp this away from the personal case of Bob and Lira (BLira?) and into the more fun and passion inducing questions of:

age, culture, standing, etc differences between married couples
appropriate ways to talk about your spouse on line
why my version of marriage is the only good one

[darjeeling]

If the Bob and Lira Soap Opera continues to spread its poison, it's because people keep following him around and dragging him through the mud.

If you were being followed around and dragged through the mud, would you keep on posting lots and lots of pictures of your wife and giving the people bothering you more and more material to talk shit about the both of you?

[epepke]

So great. You found a nice woman there. Does that mean that every guy would find someone who was a good match somewhere within the borders of Fairbanks Alaska?

So Bob may be... odd. Who isn't? Maybe even odder than most. So what? Maybe so odd that none of the girls in Fairbanks were a good match. Wow. That's damning. Hang him! Oh, and there's the examples of him boasting wild things and posting inappropriate crap on the internet. Holy shit, nobody else has ever done that. Yeah, he's sure a bad person.

Oh, please. I'm not attacking Bob, and I certainly don't want to hang him. If he's happy, that's great with me, and I don't much care how he got that way. I've even clearly stated that I don't think he should be picked on for relationship choices. That should be enough, unless you have a hidden motive.

I've things here that can be looked up by the literate.

I just don't think that the statement that women are in short supply in Alaska is true. I also stand amazed at this reflexive defensiveness.

If the Bob and Lira Soap Opera continues to spread its poison, it's because people keep following him around and dragging him through the mud.

True enough. I want people to read that rantsnraves thread before they decide to engage in the Soap Opera. As for myself, I'm going to go back to trying to ignore it, unless someone addresses me.

[Barefoot Bree]

I don't give a shit about what was posted on RnR. Really, I don't.

And actually, I'm perfectly happy to grant that the bald statement "women are in short supply in Alaska" is not true.

Unattached women who are a good match for rlogan, who possess the qualities he desires and in turn desire both his qualities and his lifestyle, and have that indefinable something that clicks between the pair of them? Puh-lease. I have absolutely no reason to doubt that he couldn't find any such. I sure couldn't find anybody that I clicked with when I was up there. Granted, I was only there a year and a half, and I did have the military to choose from (being military myself), and I didn't have the handicap of the remote cabin lifestyle, but still.....

Why is it so difficult to believe that out of the women that are there in the Fairbanks area, he didn't find what he wanted? How many people anywhere in the world can't find what they desire in mate in their immediate area and have to go search elsewhere? Most people are lucky enough to find it fairly close by - the nearest city, perhaps, or at least somewhere in their own country. rlogan decided to cast his net further afield. So freaking what?

I really boggle that this is such a hard issue.

[Preno]

I don't give a shit about what was posted on RnR. Really, I don't.If you haven't read the original (http://www.rantsnraves.org/showthread.php?t=8496) threads (http://www.rantsnraves.org/showthread.php?t=9748), then maybe you shouldn't be arguing about this.

[Hevvin Machine]

I do not see any reason for criticizing Lira and Bob that makes any more sense than criticizing gay people for getting married. The world is a large and complex place. Humans make choices that seem inexplicable and distasteful to others, but who cares? If it's none of your business, then it's none of your business.

Bob and Lira have made a choice that works for them, so shut the fuck up unless you can say "Happy Anniversary! or "Congrats!" or something similarly positive.

If you want to complain about the fact that Phillipinas have far fewer options than white western men then say that. Bitch about the inequity of the human situation. But don't complain that rlogan and lira have a bad relationship when you don't know anything about the personal details of two individual humans who now have an apparently lovely marriage.

Just stop projecting your guilt onto Bob and Lira.
Hev

[Barefoot Bree]

I don't give a shit about what was posted on RnR. Really, I don't.If you haven't read the original threads, then maybe you shouldn't be arguing about this.

Look I get it. The guy has posted some outrageous stuff over the years on the various forums. He's pissed some people off. He's made outrageous claims. He's posted stuff some people find creepy, or questionable, or ____ [insert whatever adjective you prefer].

He might even be the kind of guy in real life that I'd describe in less-than-complementary terms. Who knows? Imagine that. Somebody who may not be all that he claims on internet web sites.

I get it.

What I don't get is this compulsion to 'expose' the guy on every forum he goes to. Who appointed you the internet cops?

I'll say it again: I don't give a shit what happened on RnR, and I'm not going to click on your links. What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas. This is London, baby. The Underground stops at Mornington Crescent, not Rantsville.

[LoneWolf]

Ok, everyone who lives in a 3rd world country, raise their hand.

:raises hand:

I would like to clear something up. Just because a guy is western and has money does not mean he can get any poor pretty woman he wants in a 3rd world country. Yes, money gives the guy power. But guess what, beauty gives the woman power as well. I see it here all the time. A beautiful Cambodian woman goes out with different guys, all very well off financially. She has fun, they go out, they treat her like a queen. She plays the field, just like a young woman should. As often as not, the guy falls in love with the beautiful lady and asks her to marry him or to at least be in a committed relationship. Several of my wife’s friends have been in this situation. You have a pretty woman who makes around $50 to $100 a month get proposed to by a financially well off guy who could sweep her off to somewhere like the US, the UK, or Australia. Hell, sometimes the guy is even young and handsome.

But time and time again I see the woman call things off. Why? For the same reason most people do: there is no spark. This sounds very bad but it is the truth in places like this: A beautiful woman does not have to “settle”. She will have many opportunities to say yes to a rich western man. This is not necessarily the case, however, for women who were not fortunate enough to be born beautiful. I know how that sounds, but it is the fact of life over here. My wife dated a few different western guys before me. They were all rich and two of them were madly in love with her. I even met one of them. Not a bad looking guy. But she is with me, a guy on a soldier’s salary who she will have to follow around to places like Libya for a decade before she ever gets a chance to settle down in the US. Why? Because she LOVES me.

Yes, many beautiful women in this region will very likely wait for a man that can take care of them financially, but he must ALSO be a man that she believes will love her and that she in turn can love. Knowing what I know about the Philippines and having seen pictures of Lira I can assure you she didn’t have to “settle” for rlogan. This woman could have had any number of richer younger western men but she chose good ol’ Bob. Just think on that.

And guess what? Rlogan didn’t have to “settle” either. As beautiful as Lira is, in the Philippines, rlogan could have found someone even more beautiful. He could have found a beautiful, young woman who didn’t have the medical problems that Lira has. And he could have found someone like that who was even more submissive in nature. Give me an hour and I will go find you a few women like that on my lunch break here. No, there had to be more to Lira than that. Don’t get me wrong, I am certain he wanted a young, beautiful woman who shared his preference for gender roles, but given the selection in SE Asia there had to be something about her that made her special to him. Just from what I have seen and read I am only guessing that her sense of adventure was a huge factor. Given rlogan’s personality that in itself might be enough to make him fall in love with her.

So no, love is not the only factor in play here. But it seems obvious to me that it IS a factor, on both of their parts. And that is good enough for me (not that my opinion should matter a lick to either of them.)

[LoneWolf]

On a somewhat related note some of you may be wondering why many of these women are zeroing in on western men rather than men of their own nationality. Well, most do look for men of their own nationality here, actually. But many women here are beginning to become dissatisfied with the way men treat women in their culture. I don’t know about the Philippines but here in Cambodia the overwhelming majority of Cambodian husbands cheat on their wives. It is actually seen as a sign of weakness if you don’t have mistresses on the side. Cambodian women, for the most part, have grown up thinking this is the norm and they just accept it. They just don’t talk about it. However, the younger generation of women here is becoming less tolerant of that. My wife left her son’s father because he cheated on her when she was pregnant. Her family thought she was crazy but she said she wouldn’t stay with a man who wouldn’t be faithful to her. She has made it very clear to me that she is NOT one of those women who will look the other way on infidelity.

So more and more young women in this region are looking for guys who will be faithful to them. My guess is the young Cambodian guys will eventually catch up with this culture shift but they are behind the curve at the moment. And yes, western men certainly cheat, but the odds of getting a western man who doesn’t cheat vs the odds of getting a Cambodian man who doesn’t cheat is far greater. It is just a straight culture difference. Just as there are cultural differences that some western men find attractive in Asian women, it works the other way to. There is a general opinion here that western men just plain treat women better. The general stereotype here is western men are less likely to cheatand beat their wives, and more likely to work hard and treat their wife with respect. This stereotype is not fair to the good, faithful, hard working Cambodian men out there but it is a stereotype that persists and it explains well why many young women in this region are now only dating western men.

And on the flip side women in this region do tend to hold to what we consider old fashioned gender roles when it comes to family dynamics. I am one of those guys who does NOT prefer the old fashioned roles but ended up with a SE Asian wife anyway. When I was single and dating here it was just a simple matter of math I guess. Of the pool of women I could date about 99% were SE Asian. It causes some friction at times (nothing serious). When I try to help in the kitchen she gets noticeably peeved with me. She always tries to leave the big decisions up to me. I think I am slowly convincing her to change in that area. When we found out she was pregnant I told her I wouldn’t drink either during the 9 months just to be fair to her. Most American women think that is the sweetest thing. My wife is embarrassed by it and most Cambodian women do look at me weird when I tell them why I’m not drinking. So while the younger generation of women are turning away from some of the patriarchal aspects of their culture (blind eye to cheating), they still embrace enough of them to make them attractive to western men who like the old fashioned way of doing things.

So I can see why a guy who likes the old fashioned roles would have better luck finding an ideal mate here. When both the husband and wife agree on their roles it can certainly make things run smoother.

[Pendaric]

Bob, I owe you and Lira an apology.

I will admit that whilst I haven't been attacking you, my comments have been based around the stereotype of older men visiting a third world country for a fortnight and going through marriage agencies expressly for the purpose of finding a bride. I don't have a massive moral issue with that anyway, but I can understand why such situations are viewed disfavourably.

Having read your further posts, and LoneWolf's above for context, I realise I have done you both a grave injustice in casting your situation in the same mould. It obviously isn't.

My apologies. Best wishes and continuing happiness to both yourself and Lira.

[Stout Drinker]

Rlogan,

I owe you an apology as well.

Though I find your actions and words distasteful and misogynistic, they don't remotely justify the comments I have made.

There is no evidence that you 'bought' Lira and that she is anything other than a willing party to your marriage. It was wrong of me to say otherwise.

[RBH]

Rlogan,

I owe you an apology as well.

Though I find your actions and words distasteful and misogynistic, they don't remotely justify the comments I have made.

There is no evidence that you 'bought' Lira and that she is anything other than a willing party to your marriage. It was wrong of me to say otherwise.That's an admirable post, SD. Thanks.

[SteveF]

I'll say it again: I don't give a shit what happened on RnR, and I'm not going to click on your links. What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas. This is London, baby. The Underground stops at Mornington Crescent, not Rantsville.

As I understand it (and I could well be wrong), Secular Cafe doesn't operate a blank slate policy - the behaviour of others elsewhere is taken into account here. Presumably this applies to rlogan as much as anyone else. Now you are free to ignore this general policy (and fair enough), but for others I think Preno's links may prove instructive.

[halii]

Rlogan is referencing RnR events which should mean it's fairplay for RnR people to clarify what exactly happened.

Though to be honest there's no point, because the links have already been provided on frdb and talkrational, and you guys either already read the story or aren't going to read it no matter what. all i can tell you is initially nearly everyone was supportive of Bob initially. Even when he was considering marrying Wenalyn there wasn't much more than nuetral/positive reactions. and the reason for the negativity is not because there was jealously, or judgment of "first world"/"third world" marriages, or judgment of marriages with significant age gaps. I assume going into the story much more than that will result in a ban. But a lot of the history of this has been severely misstated.

when i clarified and provided links on free ratio, i got thank yous from people that included some staff members, but of course many didn't already know the story and needed to read the account firsthand instead of someone's interpretation of it.

[rlogan]

Lira has been sick and I was not watching the thread, but I have had some commments.

Thanks to the people who have been kind. Even the best of them though still buy into parts of the meme.

First: Stop reading and quote mining from the massive R&R trolling threads. I don't do the same to other people - looking through every post they ever made on every board eveywhere and insisting against all evidence to the contrary that this one thing they said represents how they think and who they are.

The only people who do that have an agenda. And the fact I can post so many things here about Lira and still have them not listened to demonstrates that people are still letting the meme "bought sumbissive wife" dictate what they think as a default and making me prove otherwise.

Stop taking what preno says as the default and making me disprove it. Why are you accepting his statement I want a "submissive" woman as a given, and making me then bear the burden of proof otherwise?

All of these threads in TR, IIDB, here - these are derails off my posts just talking about what Lira and I are up to, and they are then opened with the accusations of preno and other stalkers. This is giving the benefit of the doubt to a stalker with an agenda - giving the stalker the floor and then having him direct the show with various accusations I have to counter.

Why are you not just asking me a question instead of saying "look at this quote mine here from the stalker" -and demanding I explain myself? I did not start this thread on "how I met Lira". preno the stalker did. As he has done for fifteen months now across four boards.

At R&R Lira and I made some introductory post TOGETHER. You have to be thinking of her as a brainless, submissive, choiceless slave when taking posts we made together and choosing to interpret them as mysogenistic and sexist.

You see how your assumption is "Lira will accept mysogeny and sexism"? It takes your assumptions like that to allow interpreting every word and sentence that way.

Very quickly that thread at R&R went from Lira and I just introducing her to massive attacks by people that have continued now for a more than a year peddling the "bought wife against her will" meme. So yes, I got in their faces and even said some things that are completely untrue in order to troll them back. So quit referring to that shit.

I did not seek a submissive wife. That is the exact opposite I want in a wife. What I prize is toughness and loyalty. I explained that in numerous times and numerous ways and the only reason it has been overlooked is because you've chosen to.

You've allowed the stalker to establish the default that Lira is submissive. Stop doing that.

Lira is more of a man than preno. Just look at the stuff she does. Can he drive bulldozers and skid steers, snowmachines, track animals, use and take apart chain saws, orienteer in the woods, be competent in firearms, axemanship, trapping, etc?

How can you look at a girl who left her home to work and support her family, and who also left her country - a girl that speaks three languages, as this frail and submissive helpless thing? She has more guts than most of you do. I do not mean that with contempt towards you. It's a fact.

Lira is obviously hot. She was on a dance team in high school. She knows what she is doing in terms of striking a pose that makes men drool. You have to hold simultaneously inconsistent positions about her to claim that on the one hand I only want her because she is so hot, but on the other hand no other man on earth would have been attracted to her.

If you are actually reading stuff about her you will see that she is a very stubborn girl. Nevertheless loyal to the core.

What is important to the stalker preno is pushing the "submissive" meme regardless of its truth.

Now will you people accept that I want a girl who has a mind of her own, yet is loyal? Certainly, Preno will not.

What is creepy is following someone through four message boards, relentlessly with the mischaracterized meme. That is what needs explaining. Why is preno so obsessed with stalking us?

His disagreement apparently stems from the original argument on IIDB that epepke references. I strenuously objected to the whole "pick-up artist" approach to women. And it is precisely on the basis that it treats women as objects, to be deceived and manipulated into sex and then thrown away.

Preno was so offended that, in epepke's view - turnabout is fair play. Not to disagree with how I actually met her or treat her, or who she is - but trying to mischaracterize it out of spite. I dislike the pick-up artist school of womanizing and therefore all effort is directed towards attacking my relationship with Lira - and in particular framing it as if she is only a piece of meat, exploited, etc.

So a relentless obsession for over a year, mischaracterizing every possible aspect, stalking us through four message boards - is "fair play" for a few posts I made some years ago against the "pick-up artist" school of womanizing.


Let's do an experiment. Preno - I do not want a submissive wife and Lira is actually a very stubborn girl.

Now, let's see if Preno now reverses his mischaracterizations or if instead he goes out of his way to take some post from R&R to "prove" otherwise.

I bet he doesn't.

What seems to be important to this crowd of pick-up artist fans is that they are "real men" and can pick girls up at bars, whereas I had to "buy" mine. That is what is important to preno. This is some kind of "I am more of a man than you" competition with him.

Also with epepke - from his post we can see it is some kind of competition. "I can find women in Alaska, why can't you...?"


epepke - you went to Anchorage, not Alaska. In the interior we like to say that the nice thing about Anchorage is that sometimes on a clear day you can see Alaska from there. Well over half the population of the entire state is in the Anchorage-Wasilla roadway. It is over 350 miles from my cabin and in terms of the lower '48 would be two states' away from here. It is a modern city with demographics similar to the lower '48.

What do you not "get" about living in a cabin in the woods? It is not Anchorage. It is also not Fairbanks.

How many single women live in my valley, epepke? Zero. How is it that in your world I am obligated to drive to Fairbanks to pick up women? That just shows I guess why you have had difficulty with women. I never have. It's not something I am even interested in doing. I meet them doing the things I am up to.

I was married to mrs. Alaska bodybuilder. She was beautiful. I don't feel like taking less than awesome in a partner. I don't date. It's all or nothing.

In the year I met Lira I was in Fairbanks about 9 times on food runs. Maybe 3 hours each time. So that's 27 hours in Fairbanks - at the grocery store and gasoline station.

I was overseas 91 days. 24/7. So that is thousands of hours compared with 27 hours in Fairbanks.

People obsessed with picking up women see my expeditions overseas - Argentina, Chile, Peru, Siberia, Philippines, Burma, Thailand, Laos - as exclusively one purpose: to pick up women.

Let's experiment again and see if my stalker preno is willing to admit that the main purpose of my trips overseas is the same as it is here: I'm just doing my thing.

I bet he doesn't.

preno would have long ago admitted that these are adventure trips for me - he can do so now too - but this is obviously a deeply personal war with preno.

He has fifteen months and a lot of man-hours and posts invested in stalking Lira and me. Gosh, how many posts were edited and deleted recently at the new IIDB? Don't know, but it is plenty.

Giving up precious parts of his meme - 1) Lira is not submissive. 2) The trips I take are just my way of living, not some exclusive woman-hunting thing. 3) Lira had a lot of choices besides me 4) so did I - and here in Alaska too.

These are all too important for the stalker preno to give up. I do not mean that term stalker lightly. There is no other way to describe someone who has followed you through four message boards relentlessly, incessantly repeating a meme he knows is not true.

This is giving up everything to preno and his buddies.

I have now for more than two years sheltered someone from embarassment by not dragging her into this and saying - "see I could have had her". But there is more than one case of women who have come here directly to me without me having to even leave my cabin. There are also some very tough Alaska girls that are single.

Lira is "somewhat" ;) more attractive, but also far more likely to remain loyal due to her cultural and family background.

I can take every marriage relationship and imbue it with the same things - ultimately preno is after the characterization that Lira is a prostitute/maid out of economic desperation. That I am an evil person who has exploited her. Imprisoned her.

Let's see how much of this preno is willing to admit is true:

1) Lira had choices, and with men that had more money than me.

2) Lira is not sumbissive

3) That my overseas trips for the last decade have been about adventure - not some exclusive woman-hunting thing.

4) I had choices too.

Meh. Lira is cringing and she's right. I have to get to work. She has better sense than me to spend more than a year contending with stalkers.

Thank you again to those who didn't buy into the meme, and to pendaric for apologizing. stout drinker that was a bit of a left-handed apology, but to the extent you removed the mischaracterizations of Lira and me, thank you.

[Pendaric]

Rlogan is referencing RnR events which should mean it's fairplay for RnR people to clarify what exactly happened.

Though to be honest there's no point, because the links have already been provided on frdb and talkrational, and you guys either already read the story or aren't going to read it no matter what. all i can tell you is initially nearly everyone was supportive of Bob initially. Even when he was considering marrying Wenalyn there wasn't much more than nuetral/positive reactions. and the reason for the negativity is not because there was jealously, or judgment of "first world"/"third world" marriages, or judgment of marriages with significant age gaps. I assume going into the story much more than that will result in a ban. But a lot of the history of this has been severely misstated.

when i clarified and provided links on free ratio, i got thank yous from people that included some staff members, but of course many didn't already know the story and needed to read the account firsthand instead of someone's interpretation of it.

When someone is being attacked and trolled with every post, their responses are not always posted with the intention of truthfulness and accuracy - returning the trolling can be an equal motivation. I would not place a great deal of weight on the previous posts made on R'n'R.

rlogan has explained his situation fully on here, and has already defended his marriage and living situation far more than anyone should really have to do.

[David B]

Rlogan is referencing RnR events which should mean it's fairplay for RnR people to clarify what exactly happened.

Though to be honest there's no point, because the links have already been provided on frdb and talkrational, and you guys either already read the story or aren't going to read it no matter what. all i can tell you is initially nearly everyone was supportive of Bob initially. Even when he was considering marrying Wenalyn there wasn't much more than nuetral/positive reactions. and the reason for the negativity is not because there was jealously, or judgment of "first world"/"third world" marriages, or judgment of marriages with significant age gaps. I assume going into the story much more than that will result in a ban. But a lot of the history of this has been severely misstated.

when i clarified and provided links on free ratio, i got thank yous from people that included some staff members, but of course many didn't already know the story and needed to read the account firsthand instead of someone's interpretation of it.

Well I did read the saga at RnR, hallii, at the time. And I'm not going to go back and re-read it.

I will say, though, that I got the strong impression at the time that rlogan played up, rather unwisely I thought, to the negativity he was getting there, by basically trolling the trolls - pretty much everyone at RnR is trolling, at least some of the time.

I didn't take a lot of what he said at RnR in those threads seriously, because I was of the strong impression that much of what he said wasn't meant seriously.

David

[dancer_rnb]

It can be fun to play to peoples' prejudices and irritate the hell out of them, if you have a certain mindset.

[darjeeling]

What is creepy is following someone through four message boards, relentlessly with the mischaracterized meme.

What's also creepy is you constantly posting pictures of your wife and saying, "Look, look, look, look! She's hot!". I think people got the point a long time ago. By constantly bringing it up over and over again, you're only inviting people to attack you and Lira over and over again.

It doesn't make much sense to say, "Hit me!" and then act offended when someone hits you, especially after that's already happened several times.

rlogan has explained his situation fully on here, and has already defended his marriage and living situation far more than anyone should really have to do.

He regularly comments on his marriage and living situation, on his own, without prompting from anyone else, in far greater detail than most people, so it's no surprise that he's had to defend those things more than anyone else.

[Brother Daniel]

rlogan,

Do you really thing preno is here to "stalk" you?

Get over yourself, man. Life on the 'net is not all about you.

You don't improve your credibility, against those who are mischaracterizing you (if that's what's going on), by mischaracterizing them in return. If you're really interested in swaying people's opinions of you for the better, that is not an effective way to go about it.

[rigorist]

Lay on, MacDuff!

[halii]

So rlogan was trolling us on RNR, and when we fell for the troll instead of laughing at us, he got super offended that we didn't approve of the views he expressed in the troll and complained about them to everyone who would listen and everyone expressed sympathies to him for how mean RnR was to him while he was trolling, right? The only problem i have with this is he seems to be continuing the troll right now. LIke with this post right here:



I have to be patient and understanding. Reasonable. Don't lecture. Don't raise your voice. Show her that I understand her feelings. But still get across a point if there needs to be one.

She got herself way out into the woods alone yesterday out of stubborness, and I had to track her down. Started out by trying to frustrate me by going slower than I wanted, then passing me when I said OK, let's just go back if you are going to act like you don't want to be here. So I started back, but now it's an even more fun game because she's going to surge on ahead and make me follow her. Well I didn't. Until I started to get worried. But now of course she has poured on the steam because the whole point was to get me frustrated first by dragging behind and then by putting on the jets. It took two miles to catch up with her, because yes she's that stubborn.

of course not as outlandish as his private trolls to mason when he embarassed the hell out of himself for...lulz?

[SteveF]

Lira is more of a man than preno. Just look at the stuff she does. Can he drive bulldozers and skid steers, snowmachines, track animals, use and take apart chain saws, orienteer in the woods, be competent in firearms, axemanship, trapping, etc?

Dude, buy your self a manbag and embrace the metrosexual age.

[miss djax]

Lira is more of a man than preno. Just look at the stuff she does. Can he drive bulldozers and skid steers, snowmachines, track animals, use and take apart chain saws, orienteer in the woods, be competent in firearms, axemanship, trapping, etc?

Dude, buy your self a manbag and embrace the metrosexual age.

:notworthy:


best...post.....ever

[Barefoot Bree]

What is it about that quote that bugs you, halii?

It's a bit paternalistic to my ears, but the urgency is understandable. They live on the edge of the Alaskan wilderness. Stupid stunts like that can get you killed. Literally. And very easily. Happens all the time up there.

[JamesBannon]

Lira is more of a man than preno. Just look at the stuff she does. Can he drive bulldozers and skid steers, snowmachines, track animals, use and take apart chain saws, orienteer in the woods, be competent in firearms, axemanship, trapping, etc?
Why does that make anyone, male or female, more "manly" than someone who has intellectual pursuits? Preno is a brilliant young man with a good head on his shoulders. That's not so common in one his age.

For that matter, it doesn't make me any "less manly" than yourself and I'm no adventurer, nor am I brilliant (though that's a matter of opinion), and I've never been to Alaska or any other of the wilderness areas. Why does that make me, and people like me, "less manly"?

As for Lira being a "stubborn girl", I presume you don't see the frank paternalism in that description. If you said that to any of my sisters, mother or ex-wife, I can assure you you would probably not survive the experience. Lira is a young woman with a mind of her own, and she will find ways to assert that independence, you can be pretty sure of that.

[Anne]

man, this thread has so many good topics in it, but they all get re railed.

[Jobar]

Although there have been a number of posts in this thread which address the real moral issues involved, too many posts are much too personal. I'm going to lock it; if anyone feels that it should be re-opened, and can give a good reason for doing that, contact me or start an In Confidence thread.