Meditation (split from Dumbest alternative medicines)

[Ray Moscow]

I like and practise meditation.

Most forms of prayer involving talking to and listening to deities, which is something quite different.

[Christina]

I don't see anything that someone acknowledges as a mental exercise as woo. My meter only goes off when people think that they are getting inspiration or a response from something supernatural.

[Brianna]

I don't see anything that someone acknowledges as a mental exercise as woo. My metrer only goes off when people think that they are getting inspiration or a response from something supernatural.

This.

It is the difference between watching monkies and chasing them with a stick.

Monkies = thoughts.

[Matty]

meditation is awesome. Used to do it a lot back in my more hippy days, not as much these days (its hard to find an hour or so with no noise at our place) but still from time to time.

[Christina]

meditation is awesome. Used to do it a lot back in my more hippy days, not as much these days (its hard to find an hour or so with no noise at our place) but still from time to time.

I don't understand what it is, but not through any lack of trying. I'm pretty sure that my brain is only going to shut up when I'm dead. I get so frustrated when someone tells me not to think or to think about nothing because that's a thought in itself. I cannot conceive of not having a running monologue in my head.

[Brianna]

meditation is awesome. Used to do it a lot back in my more hippy days, not as much these days (its hard to find an hour or so with no noise at our place) but still from time to time.

I don't understand what it is, but not through any lack of trying. I'm pretty sure that my brain is only going to shut up when I'm dead. I get so frustrated when someone tells me not to think or to think about nothing because that's a thought in itself. I cannot conceive of not having a running monologue in my head.

I brought this up to my psychiatrist yesterday cause I have the same issue.

He said. "See the thoughts as monkies. Instead of being the monkies, watch the monkies. There is no way to get rid of all the monkies." In watching your thoughts it is in that you find peace.

[Barefoot Bree]

Interesting idea, Bri. I'll have to give that a try. I'd like to get into meditation, but I'm also in the "trying to find some time when everyone is quiet" mode. My ADD doesn't help, either, my mental monkeys are even more hyperactive than most. I'm going to keep trying, though.

(Snicker - just went through about 6 respellings of "monkeys" till the spellchecker was happy. I KNEW "monkies" wasn't right, but kept trying to spell it "monkees". Yes, I'm a product of the sixties. :D )

[Christina]

In watching your thoughts it is in that you find peace.

I don't want to derail this too far onto meditation but the idea of generating my thoughts at that speed and trying to stand aside and watch them at the same time is incomprehensible to me. It would be like chasing my tail and even the idea of it scares me a little if I'm understanding you correctly. I can stand aside and let waves of moods just wash over me and wait for them to pass without trying to substantiate them with a logical reason, but those are like mists that blow by rather than concrete thoughts that I generate.

If the admins want to split this part off, I don't mind.

[Brianna]

In watching your thoughts it is in that you find peace.

I don't want to derail this too far onto meditation but the idea of generating my thoughts at that speed and trying to stand aside and watch them at the same time is incomprehensible to me. It would be like chasing my tail and even the idea of it scares me a little if I'm understanding you correctly. I can stand aside and let waves of moods just wash over me and wait for them to pass without trying to substantiate them with a logical reason, but those are like mists that blow by rather than concrete thoughts that I generate.

If the admins want to split this part off, I don't mind.

Can you make your thoughts slow down at all?

I don't see how this: I can stand aside and let waves of moods just wash over me and wait for them to pass without trying to substantiate them with a logical reason, but those are like mists that blow by rather than concrete thoughts that I generate. not meditation. Sounds like it to me.

It was just one of those AH-HA moments for me.

[Christina]

Brianna, I'm going to hold off on answering that one for a bit because Oolon isn't online and we're taking this pretty far afield from the OP. He might want to split all of the personal anecdotes about meditation off into another thread.

[Brianna]

Brianna, I'm going to hold off on answering that one for a bit because Oolon isn't online and we're taking this pretty far afield from the OP. He might want to split all of the personal anecdotes about meditation off into another thread.

Hey I don't live by his time zone! :D

[ofro]

Shouldn't have let yourself be banished to WI :)

[Brianna]

Shouldn't have let yourself be banished to WI :)

That is what god does to really bad people... (watch Dogma)

[Christina]

Thanks for the intelligent question.

Thanks for the answer. : )

If I'm understanding you correctly it's more of a mental exercise than an expectation that someone or something is listening. Did I get that right?

[David B]

and i shall consider you totally owned if that is the best you can do. So shall everyone else, probably.
Speaking for others is a bad sign. Look, for an example I said you committed a false dichotomy, for the simple reason that you commited a false dichotomy, and your response was simple denial as opposed to asking what other alternatives were available. There is little point in engaging with you on this subject, Matty.

If nothing else please answer why it is bigoted to require evidence for things that supposedly fuck with people's well being. I look forward to your response and am sending some creative chi your way to help you along, can you feel it?
You already admitted that some alternative remedies should not be treated with disrespect. I've given two reasons to not disrespect homeopathy.

Oh and add me to the list of people waiting to hear of some evidence for any kind of prayer. The only study i know of showed a slightly negative correlation with recovery and being prayed for.
Yet you claim to know about the benefits of meditation. Just leave me alone Matty, please? You aren't reasonable on this subject.

I know about the benefits of meditation. Such as they are.

And the dangers. Which are very real.

Matty, by the way, is being entirely reasonable.

David

[Garrett]

It wasn't your fault, dancer.

[Brianna]

and i shall consider you totally owned if that is the best you can do. So shall everyone else, probably.
Speaking for others is a bad sign. Look, for an example I said you committed a false dichotomy, for the simple reason that you commited a false dichotomy, and your response was simple denial as opposed to asking what other alternatives were available. There is little point in engaging with you on this subject, Matty.


You already admitted that some alternative remedies should not be treated with disrespect. I've given two reasons to not disrespect homeopathy.

Oh and add me to the list of people waiting to hear of some evidence for any kind of prayer. The only study i know of showed a slightly negative correlation with recovery and being prayed for.
Yet you claim to know about the benefits of meditation. Just leave me alone Matty, please? You aren't reasonable on this subject.

I know about the benefits of meditation. Such as they are.

And the dangers. Which are very real.

Matty, by the way, is being entirely reasonable.

David

What dangers?

and not particularly, but glad to see that you can only see things from your perspective.

[Garrett]

Matty, by the way, is being entirely reasonable.

David
I'm not?

[Garrett]

Matty, by the way, is being entirely reasonable.

David
o rly. Let's talk about the false dichotomy Matty insists isn't false. Just one point among many. Please? If he's wrong about that, then why do you claim he's being reasonable?

And if he is wrong about that, where does that leave you?

[Garrett]

I know about the benefits of meditation. Such as they are.

And the dangers. Which are very real.
Unlike mainstream medicine, which has no dangers. :rolleyes:

[David B]

Speaking for others is a bad sign. Look, for an example I said you committed a false dichotomy, for the simple reason that you commited a false dichotomy, and your response was simple denial as opposed to asking what other alternatives were available. There is little point in engaging with you on this subject, Matty.


You already admitted that some alternative remedies should not be treated with disrespect. I've given two reasons to not disrespect homeopathy.


Yet you claim to know about the benefits of meditation. Just leave me alone Matty, please? You aren't reasonable on this subject.

I know about the benefits of meditation. Such as they are.

And the dangers. Which are very real.

Matty, by the way, is being entirely reasonable.

David

What dangers?

and not particularly, but glad to see that you can only see things from your perspective.

I'm working all day tomorrow, so will get back to this Thursday.

Sleep disorders, delusions of grandeur, precipitating psychotic episodes, developing nervous tics, suicides, stuff like that.

I hope the links I'll be looking for are still extant, I know a couple that have disappeared.

David

[Anne]

that sounds nuts.

I'll be looking forward to solid research to back that up.

It sounds like anti-pot claims...

[Christina]

Maybe David is thinking more about an intensive TM cult-like experience he had as opposed to the more normal level engagement of a non-cult member.

[Garrett]

The effect of which is to my eyes, the same as meditation. Which I am not dumping on, by the way. No, I'm not promoting the wild-eyed "fly through the air and become a mental superman" type of meditation. I'm promoting the well-established effects of calming, stress-reduction, and mental 'sharpening'.

Am I right, Garrett?
:notworthy:

[David B]

that sounds nuts.

I'll be looking forward to solid research to back that up.

It sounds like anti-pot claims...

It's there. German research.

And there is lots more evidence that meditation can produce physiological changes in the brain, but not a lot to suggest that it improves brain function, unless you count being blissed out as an improvement.

I have a lot of anecdotal evidence, too. Some first hand anecdotes, more second hand or third.

There does now seem to be some evidence that pot can be very bad for people who are young, and for those with certain genetic predilections. Especially skunk.

Cannabis, from what I gather from recent research, contained many compounds, some of which are anti psychotic. Breeding for high THC content has changed the balance of the cocktail of compounds that were in the run of the mill dope of a decade or three ago.

I was really seriously into meditation at one time in my life, and devoted a few years to it.

Since then, I've done some homework, and re-evaluated my experiences.

David

[Anne]

considering research I've seen lately touting meditation as a way to keep your brain healthy, I am interested. But I think I won't be convinced it's dangerous.

Unless you have a mental illness that will be aggravated by it.

[Garrett]

meditation is awesome. Used to do it a lot back in my more hippy days, not as much these days (its hard to find an hour or so with no noise at our place) but still from time to time.
About that point. Practicing meditation is like lifting weights.

Why do we lift weights, Matty? Do we not become stronger and use that increased strength in everyday life?

If you actually understood meditation, it would be part of your life, you would use it every day, while talking to your boss, while waiting in line, while driving your car, while loving your wife, while caring for your kids, while eating your dinner.

[/derail]

[Barefoot Bree]

meditation is awesome. Used to do it a lot back in my more hippy days, not as much these days (its hard to find an hour or so with no noise at our place) but still from time to time.
About that point. Practicing meditation is like lifting weights.

Why do we lift weights, Matty? Do we not become stronger and use that increased strength in everyday life?

If you actually understood meditation, it would be part of your life, you would use it every day, while talking to your boss, while waiting in line, while driving your car, while loving your wife, while caring for your kids, while eating your dinner.

[/derail]

That was unnecessarily harsh. We all understand exercise, too, yet most of us don't do that as often as we should, either. Or eating well. Or good sex.

[David B]

considering research I've seen lately touting meditation as a way to keep your brain healthy, I am interested. But I think I won't be convinced it's dangerous.

Yes, I've looked at a lot of that, too. Then again, I've looked at lots of research claiming to demonstrate ESP, and other paranormal effects.

That meditation can effect the brain, there is no doubt. A lot of the research into meditation, though, by people like Benson, Wallace, et al, is done by people who have already pre-judged meditation as a good thing. It is quite easy for researchers to mistakenly 'find' what they want to see, as is evidenced by the cold fusion fiasco, and the water memory thing of Benveniste.

People in science do sometimes look for what fits their prejudices, and sometimes think they've found it.

A lot of their research is also done on people who are sold on meditation, and are predisposed to report benefits.

Of course there are many types of meditation, some more benign than others.

Unless you have a mental illness that will be aggravated by it.

As in the case of pot, this is something to be considered. I've no doubt, personally, that some sort of predilection for psychosis is relevent in both.

But basically, if meditation puts one into a dissociative state, as many forms of it do, then that is not a good thing, IMV.

And putting the mind into a dissociative state is pretty much the goal of many forms of meditation, even if it is not stated as such.

But bed calls, and a busy day tomorrow.

David

[Garrett]

meditation is awesome. Used to do it a lot back in my more hippy days, not as much these days (its hard to find an hour or so with no noise at our place) but still from time to time.
About that point. Practicing meditation is like lifting weights.

Why do we lift weights, Matty? Do we not become stronger and use that increased strength in everyday life?

If you actually understood meditation, it would be part of your life, you would use it every day, while talking to your boss, while waiting in line, while driving your car, while loving your wife, while caring for your kids, while eating your dinner.

[/derail]

That was unnecessarily harsh. We all understand exercise, too, yet most of us don't do that as often as we should, either. Or eating well. Or good sex.
But the exercise we do do, affects in a positive way our everyday life. That was my point. Meditation, like exercise, is a good thing.

[Garrett]

Lifting weights seems pointless. But getting stronger does not!

[dancer_rnb]

It wasn't your fault, dancer.

Oh, I know that.

I don't think most people I encounter are talking about meditation when they mention prayer, however. I think there are problems when you confuse (conflate?) two different things by using the same name for them. Like type I and type II diabetes. I think one or the other type of diabetes should be renamed.

[Brianna]

I know about the benefits of meditation. Such as they are.

And the dangers. Which are very real.

Matty, by the way, is being entirely reasonable.

David

What dangers?

and not particularly, but glad to see that you can only see things from your perspective.

I'm working all day tomorrow, so will get back to this Thursday.

Sleep disorders, delusions of grandeur, precipitating psychotic episodes, developing nervous tics, suicides, stuff like that.

I hope the links I'll be looking for are still extant, I know a couple that have disappeared.

David

I think that is the biggest line of b.s and you best have some proof to back this up.

[dancer_rnb]

Might it be possible to get caught in a cycle of bad thinking, if you already have problems?

What exactly are we talking about when we say meditation?

[David B]

What dangers?

and not particularly, but glad to see that you can only see things from your perspective.

I'm working all day tomorrow, so will get back to this Thursday.

Sleep disorders, delusions of grandeur, precipitating psychotic episodes, developing nervous tics, suicides, stuff like that.

I hope the links I'll be looking for are still extant, I know a couple that have disappeared.

David

I think that is the biggest line of b.s and you best have some proof to back this up.

Time is short today, and work calls. Unless a lot of stuff has disappeared from the net, I'll search what I can out tomorrow.

For now, I'll just confine myself to saying that positive reports of meditation are no more reliable than positive reports of homeopathy, prayer, ionising foot baths et at.

David

[David B]

Might it be possible to get caught in a cycle of bad thinking, if you already have problems?

What exactly do we mean by a cycle of bad thinking? I can make sense of 'cycle of bad thinking' in terms of depression, but this is not really what I'm talking about. I'm talking about using a technique to get the mind into a dissociative state.

What exactly are we talking about when we say meditation?

'Exactly' is difficult, because people differ, as to meditation techniques.

The type of meditation I know best, by a street, is Transcendental Meditation. But I'd suggest that the same would apply to any sort of meditation insofar as they share some attributes.

Those attributes would include some sort of initiation, in a setting conducive to the power of suggestion, repetition of some mantra or prayer, an aim of getting to a state beyond verbal thought, or altered states of mind in which the sense of self lessens or dissipates altogether, or in which the aim is some sort of feeling of unity with the universe as a whole and/or some god.

David

[Ray Moscow]

I do mostly the Taoist stuff, as that's integrated into Chinese martial arts. I don't really like the mystical (woo-woo) aspects that some get into, though.

We probably should split this meditation discussion off to its own thread somewhere.

[Ray Moscow]

I think a lot depends on finding the right teacher. For me, that's been mostly Yang Jwing-Ming, who also has several books on the subject.

But I think personal instruction works better than books or vids.

Also, if you find that what's being taught doesn't work for you, move on. Not everything works for everyone -- and some of what's taught is downright wrong, IMO.

[Oolon Colluphid]

Can Meditation Be Bad for You? (http://www.thehumanist.org/humanist/MaryGarden.html)

[Ray Moscow]

Good article.

Yes, I've known a few people who overtrained, mistrained or just otherwise went bonkers with this Eastern stuff. I suppose their ego was stretched beyond what it could deal with, and all sorts of crazy stuff (which would ordinarily be unconscious and subordinate) took over.

One might ask: why risk such stuff?

Well, people drop dead jogging, too. It doesn't mean that it's not beneficial for most people.

Good training helps a lot, but that means finding a good teacher, and it's not easy to screen if one is just a beginner.

[Barefoot Bree]

Well, that was an eye-opener. I'd never heard of that kind of thing.

I'd never be interested in intensive meditation or going on a retreat. I do still think that some form of daily quiet time for the mind is good. Though perhaps that's just my desperation to shut up my ADDled brain for just 5 freaking minutes if you don't mind please make it stop no I don't want to go for a bike ride or look at that shiny object.... oops, sorry. Where was I? :o

[Ray Moscow]

The basic techniques for calming the mind are pretty easy. That might be all you need.

How do you calm a monkey? Give it a banana.

[Christina]

Can you make your thoughts slow down at all?

I don't see how this: I can stand aside and let waves of moods just wash over me and wait for them to pass without trying to substantiate them with a logical reason, but those are like mists that blow by rather than concrete thoughts that I generate. not meditation. Sounds like it to me.

The short answer is that for me, moods aren't conscious thoughts or necessarily related to anything real. Although of course I know that whatever I experience mentally or emotionally is self-generated, thoughts are usually under my control even if the speed of them isn't and moods usually aren't. They're just part of the disorder and they aren't real, don't matter and they don't deserve to be dignified with a reason, blamed on someone or acted upon. They're best ignored until they pass.

The science forum probably isn't the best place to compare symptoms and try to figure out the similarities and differences between different disorders (unless someone doesn't have one, of course,and is getting it out of a book ;) ). We can do that at Garnet's place.

[Ray Moscow]

A really interesting account of a guy, messing about on his own, who had an episode that nearly killed him is Gopi Krisna's Living with Kundalini (http://www.amazon.com/Living-Kundalini-Shambhala-Dragon-Editions/dp/0877739471).

I find the Chinese stuff more balanced and safer than the Indian, but I still think there are potential hazards.

Carl Jung thought it was stupid to indulge in "spiritual" disciplines from other cultures, since outsiders can only "ape it in disgusting ways". But then, he had a huge interest in these things for someone who didn't actualy indulge himself in their practices.

[Anne]

From David:

But basically, if meditation puts one into a dissociative state, as many forms of it do, then that is not a good thing, IMV.


why not? Show me how it's bad for a healthy person to do this.

For now, I'll just confine myself to saying that positive reports of meditation are no more reliable than positive reports of homeopathy, prayer, ionising foot baths et at.


Show me why you say this. Show me where the positive research is coming from, and why it's not reliable.

From Oolon's article:

I manage my life perfectly well without it. If I want peace and relaxation, I have a massage, or soak in a hot bath or swim twenty laps at the local pool. Or I go for a long leisurely walk. Or I just sit in a chair and do nothing. Is meditation really as beneficial as its proponents claim?

well, duh. They are all dissociative states that David is saying is wrong. I meditate while doing dishes. I meditate while stitching. TM and the like , to use an analogy, only shifts me from 5th to 3rd gear, at best. Stitching will get me to neutral quickly.

Perhaps, again, the people who get into TM and meditate that intensely are more prone to mental disturbances than those of us who need a walk and a park bench to connect with the universe?

Arthur Chappell, a former devotee of Guru Maharaj (also known as Prem Rawat), points out that meditation starves the mind of stimulus (sensory deprivation) and he wonders whether desensitizing the mind to stimuli may actually "affect one's ability to react properly with the level of fear, love, and other emotions required in any given social situation." Chappell says minds can atrophy--just like limbs do--if they aren't used for a wide range of purposes:

Many meditation practitioners have complained of difficulty doing simple arithmetic and remembering names of close friends after prolonged meditation. The effect is rather like that of Newspeak's obliteration of the English language in George Orwell's 1984.

Well, ok, that kinda proves that too much too intensely is bad.

So is drinking too much water. moderation in everything.

Dr. Michael Persinger, a professor of neuroscience at the Laurentian University in Canada, studied 1,018 meditators in 1993 and found that meditation can bring on symptoms of complex partial epilepsy such as visual abnormalities, hearing voices, feeling vibrations, or experiencing automatic behaviors such as narcolepsy. Note that epileptic patients who suffer from seizures in the temporal lobes have auditory or visual hallucinations, which they often interpret as mystical experiences. Some are convinced that they conversed with God.

interesting--- no numbers or percentages listed.

Christopher Titmuss, a former Buddhist monk who now lives in England, holds yearly Vipassana meditation retreats in Bodh Gaya, India. He reports that occasionally people go through very traumatic experiences and require round the clock support, the use of strong drugs, or even hospitalization.

Again, no stats to support this claim.

I'd like to see solid, non biased evidence, preferably linked to peer reviewed journals and not humanist magazines, and no anecdotes, please.

You know, just like we'd ask a woo believer to do to support his/her claims. ;)

[Matty]

That was my point. Meditation, like exercise, is a good thing.

And i said it wasnt? Why are you trying to argue with me when i said the exact same thing?

I admit i dont use it as much as i would like becasue of the lack of quiet in our house, but i use it as a relaxation exercise more than anything else. I use metal exercises on the wii for for the other bit :p. Pick your arguments Garrett, i'm always happy to oblige, you know that. But i need to know what we are arguing about. I'm no good at same side arguments, i get all bollixed up :)


For now, I'll just confine myself to saying that positive reports of meditation are no more reliable than positive reports of homoeopathy, prayer, ionising foot baths et at.
Depends on how you approach it David. Like i say, as a method of relaxation it helps in that if nothing else, how often do people really sit down and actually focus on relaxing and de-stressing for a prolonged period of time? That can have effects in terms of blood pressure and stress hormone levels much the same as a regular massage can. It can also be pretty head spinning in a good fun trippy fashion.

It has value in that respect IMO, and you know i dont suffer woo bullshit much :)

That said, (;) you didnt think it was all going to be positive did you ?) all of the mind over matter and mystic crap that goes along with it is exactly that IMO, hippy or eastern religion bollocks. A lot of groups are culty as fuck too, so pick your group carefully. We were lucky in that the primary practitioner in our town was a friends parent we already knew and trusted, and fairly low on bullshit.

Last time i did a decent one was when i was "fishing" in the canoe last year. One of those perfectly still lake days with no bugger out apart from me, just seemed apt. It was v nice, though admittedly i cant get quite as deep as i used to.

[Christina]

Can Meditation Be Bad for You? (http://www.thehumanist.org/humanist/MaryGarden.html)

That was interesting, especially where they talked about neurotransmitters, serotonin and epilepsy. One of the meds that I take is also used for epilepsy and I believe that seratonin levels are involved as well as GABA so that may have something to do with my inability to grasp what meditation is or experience what it sounds like the rest of you do. I don't know enough to think my way through it but maybe it's a completely different experience when you aren't neurotypical to begin with.

[David B]

Cool link, Oolon. It confirms my belief that there are dangers with many of these forms of meditation, particularly when they become the big thing in ones life.

I'm knackered now, but I haven't forgotten that I need to dig out some links tomorrow (if they still exist), and write a longish post on the subject.

David

[Anne]

How does it do that?

It has anecdotes and statements backed up with no numbers.

If I posted that in favor of meditation, you'd knock me silly!

And it talks mainly about TM, not 'all forms'.

[David B]

How does it do that?

It has anecdotes and statements backed up with no numbers.

If I posted that in favor of meditation, you'd knock me silly!

And it talks mainly about TM, not 'all forms'.

I didn't see a single reference to TM.

It backs it up for me because it is consistent with both personal experience, observation, and with the more scientific work done that I have seen.

And I didn't say 'all forms' I said 'many forms'. I'd be grateful if you would avoid giving false impressions by putting misquotes in quotes.

I'll try to find the more scientific stuff I've seen tomorrow.

And add some more anecdotes, but anecdotes with a lot of verisimiltude, IMV.

And some other stuff.

David

[Anne]

Sorry, long hard day.

It seemed to only deal with Eastern Meditation (tm) and I misread your 'many' for 'all'.

I'd prefer no anecdotes, though. I'd like straight stats, please. About meditation in general, not gurus out East, unless it's clear that's the only type to debunk here.

[David B]

Sorry, long hard day.

It seemed to only deal with Eastern Meditation (tm) and I misread your 'many' for 'all'.

I'd prefer no anecdotes, though. I'd like straight stats, please. About meditation in general, not gurus out East, unless it's clear that's the only type to debunk here.

The types of meditation I'm concerned with I briefly discuss in posts 29 and 36.

I hope to find a paper with stats - I know the one I want, if the link is still good, but you are going to get some anecdotes as well.

Anecdotal evidence about stuff that happened is not quite the same stuff as anecdotal evidence about how people feel.

David

[Matty]

Cool link, Oolon. It confirms my belief that there are dangers with many of these forms of meditation, particularly when they become the big thing in ones life.
No argument there. That cold apply to lots of things however.
As for Tm i get the impression that is possibly the most culty of all forms, and yeah thats a worry. All of those sorts of culty pastimes victimize the weak willed and desperate (not to mention fleece them for cash most of the time)

the sort i did (and hence do occasionally) was about as different from that as hindu yoga is from sports centre yoga, if that helps with a comparison. More new agey, less on the hindu spirituality, basically a deep form of relaxation with some lucid dreaming thrown in.

as for dissociative mindset, i've always been a fan of that, meditation was a fairly clean way to do it with no chemicals required. :)

[David B]

Cool link, Oolon. It confirms my belief that there are dangers with many of these forms of meditation, particularly when they become the big thing in ones life.
No argument there. That cold apply to lots of things however.

Good

[As for Tm i get the impression that is possibly the most culty of all forms, and yeah thats a worry.[/quote]

It was, in retrospect, pretty culty. But far from the most, I think. Sai Baba, Shri Rajneesh, Guru Maharaj ji, and let us not forget the Hari Krishna were more so, I think. Though the hard core of all religions and quasi religions are pretty damn culty.

All of those sorts of culty pastimes victimize the weak willed and desperate (not to mention fleece them for cash most of the time)

Nice blanket statement, which is far from accurate in many cases. TM among them. That tended to target the fairly well off, and well educated. Others did tend to go more for the desperate and week willed.

The cash bit is right, though, pretty much. Though it's termed more as helping the cause, rather than providing wealth for the hierarchy, much like the bulk of religions, Eastern and Middle Eastern. And others.

the sort i did (and hence do occasionally) was about as different from that as hindu yoga is from sports centre yoga, if that helps with a comparison. More new agey, less on the hindu spirituality, basically a deep form of relaxation with some lucid dreaming thrown in.

Please describe further. Including whether it was self taught or whether you had instruction, and, if the latter, the form of instruction. What do you think is good about lucid dreaming?

as for dissociative mindset, i've always been a fan of that, meditation was a fairly clean way to do it with no chemicals required. :)

I thought that, too.

Well, the dissociative mindset can be very pleasant, even blissful. But it has it's downside, especially in excess.

I still rather like it myself. In moderation. As something to wind down the day, with no thought of it actually being good for me. These days, though, I prefer the chemical route. More predictable.

David

[Matty]

Please describe further. Including whether it was self taught or whether you had instruction, and, if the latter, the form of instruction.
Well instruction is probably too strong a term. Its was a group of various cool aging hippies who would put on something chilled along the lines of the stream sounds, forest ambience or whale song (Christina and Jess are going to fucking rip me apart for this:) ) and then following the mandatory breathing and relaxation exercises would talk us through some scenario or another, usually of the cliched, walking though a forest, or drifting downstream a mellow river type ones.

No mantras, no woo spirituality required, though there was a talk session and cuppa afterwards where we would discuss the supposed symbolism of the imagery that came to us whilst sharing a joint. I always thought that analysis bit was Freudian bollocks but otherwise enjoyed it.. It cost 3 quid a session PAYG, no onus on any minimal turn up rate, and every once in a while you were expected to bring the hob nobs :)

There was never any pressure of any kind, and even after we left i ran into one of the guys a few years down the line and he was more stoked that i still did it occasionally off my own back than anything else.

Having run into some people that did some culty Yoga/TM type stuff i get the impression its a far cry from the type i did.



What do you think is good about lucid dreaming? Its fun. that goes a long way with me :)

I think the excess bit is key FWIW.

and yeah that was a generalization regarding victimisation, no offense.

[hecaterin]

I've mostly seen meditation as promoted by proper mental health professionals. It's often under the term "mindfulness", and is used to help get control of the mind. If you're mentally racing or ruminating or otherwise going in distressing mental circles, learning how to induce calm is very beneficial. And it takes practice.

These professionals suggest a couple of ten minute sessions per day, or maybe up to 30 minutes. I've got a bunch of CDs with 10-30 minute guided relaxations, meditations, visualisations etc, which I have found to be very helpful in times of stress and depression. I also like yoga nidra.

Doing it for hours on end seems ridiculous. That is pretty much the stuff of religion/cults, not the psychs. It's obvious to me that doing it to such an excess could well be harmful. It could also be a problem if you have an obsessive personality, even if you're not religious with it. But I wouldn't want to toss out the baby with the bathwater.

[Christina]

Its was a group of various cool aging hippies who would put on something chilled along the lines of the stream sounds, forest ambience or whale song (Christina and Jess are going to fucking rip me apart for this:) )

New age nature music and whale songs?! This is the first time I ever wanted a barfing smilie.

I should go hunt for some cheesy new age warbling music to post at you in the tunes thread for that.

[Matty]

lol. i thought you might like that :)

what can i say, i was stoned.
(please dont)

[Christina]

Damn hippie potheads.

Is it easier to meditate when you're stoned?

[Matty]

i didnt have much basis for comparison, i was stoned from about 1990 though, say, early 2009 :)

srsly we didnt smoke before doing it much, saved it for afterwards.

[Anne]

was?

[Matty]

yeah i ran out a couple days ago :)

[Anne]

<bummer>

What did you do, inherit a farm?

[Matty]

i wish.

my guy took a last minute deal to the dominican republic for 2 weeks, inconsiderate bastard :)

[Anne]

heh.

[Christina]

Derail headed to SS in 3...2....1..(or whenever Oolon wakes up)

We must get some sort of prize for derailing the derail thread. (*cough* Matty *cough*)

[Matty]

oolon'll never believe it was me :)

[Brianna]

Can Meditation Be Bad for You? (http://www.thehumanist.org/humanist/MaryGarden.html)

That is completely anecdotal :cheeky:

Need the smiley. /sigh

[Brianna]

It has value in that respect IMO, and you know i dont suffer woo bullshit much :)



No, you just suffer from the inability to capitalize I and make proper sentences :evil: woo woo.

[Brianna]

I've mostly seen meditation as promoted by proper mental health professionals. It's often under the term "mindfulness", and is used to help get control of the mind. If you're mentally racing or ruminating or otherwise going in distressing mental circles, learning how to induce calm is very beneficial. And it takes practice.

These professionals suggest a couple of ten minute sessions per day, or maybe up to 30 minutes. I've got a bunch of CDs with 10-30 minute guided relaxations, meditations, visualisations etc, which I have found to be very helpful in times of stress and depression. I also like yoga nidra.

Doing it for hours on end seems ridiculous. That is pretty much the stuff of religion/cults, not the psychs. It's obvious to me that doing it to such an excess could well be harmful. It could also be a problem if you have an obsessive personality, even if you're not religious with it. But I wouldn't want to toss out the baby with the bathwater.

This. thank you.

[David B]

My long post will have to wait.

Woke this morning feeling shitty - what a waste of a day off - headache turned into migraine, and I went back to bed till now.

Feeling a bit better, but very fragile, and not up to much at the moment.

Logging out till feel better, but doubt that I'll be up to anything challenging today.

David

[Anne]

feel better, rl is more important.

[hecaterin]

Take care, mate. Maybe a nice calming meditation session :evil:

Seriously, take care. I seem to have caught the same thing as you. I got up this morning with a mega headache; my bloke & houseguests made me go back to bed. Ah, sweet, sweet codeine.... And I have a dinner party tonight. Ack.

[nygreenguy]

I've mostly seen meditation as promoted by proper mental health professionals. It's often under the term "mindfulness", and is used to help get control of the mind. If you're mentally racing or ruminating or otherwise going in distressing mental circles, learning how to induce calm is very beneficial. And it takes practice.



This is what Im starting to work on (as advised by my therapist). Having really bad ADHD makes it hard to concentrate or focus on anything. "Meditating" is a great way to start to focus myself and try to get my brain to "slow down"

[Brianna]

I've mostly seen meditation as promoted by proper mental health professionals. It's often under the term "mindfulness", and is used to help get control of the mind. If you're mentally racing or ruminating or otherwise going in distressing mental circles, learning how to induce calm is very beneficial. And it takes practice.



This is what Im starting to work on (as advised by my therapist). Having really bad ADHD makes it hard to concentrate or focus on anything. "Meditating" is a great way to start to focus myself and try to get my brain to "slow down"

I mediate better when I take my Adderall. I also find that if I stop trying to control my thoughts, I can let go of them easier.

[nygreenguy]

I mediate better when I take my Adderall. I also find that if I stop trying to control my thoughts, I can let go of them easier.


My biggest problem is repression. Im always in a constant battle with my emotions. Ive begun to realize I cant win.

[Brianna]

I mediate better when I take my Adderall. I also find that if I stop trying to control my thoughts, I can let go of them easier.


My biggest problem is repression. Im always in a constant battle with my emotions. Ive begun to realize I cant win.

I learned that long time ago. My emotions are so so very strong. I can't reason with them. I have to ride them out and find my center and go from there.

[Barefoot Bree]

I've come to see myself as the opposite - I don't think my emotions are usually all that strong. That's not to say I never have strong emotions about anything, but that those times are relatively rare.

Nor am I an emotionless robot. I do have emotions, all the time! (Yeah, I know how dumb that sounds.) But almost never are they so strong that I have to ride them out or cannot reason with them, as Bri puts it.

It's my brain that keeps me from meditating so far. The TV switches channels by itself every couple of seconds, and I never had a remote control for it. I hope that meditation can help me find one.

[Brianna]

I've come to see myself as the opposite - I don't think my emotions are usually all that strong. That's not to say I never have strong emotions about anything, but that those times are relatively rare.

Nor am I an emotionless robot. I do have emotions, all the time! (Yeah, I know how dumb that sounds.) But almost never are they so strong that I have to ride them out or cannot reason with them, as Bri puts it.

It's my brain that keeps me from meditating so far. The TV switches channels by itself every couple of seconds, and I never had a remote control for it. I hope that meditation can help me find one.


They aren't strong, they just change a lot like the channels.
I can always reason, but I get into yelling matches with myself.

[Ray Moscow]

I've found that sitting mediation works a lot better for me after intense physical exercise. I used to follow a session of "hard qigong" or external martial arts with sitting meditation, which was just great.

Nowadays I do more tai chi, which is more of a moving meditation.

Taoist Ray

[David B]

What dangers?

and not particularly, but glad to see that you can only see things from your perspective.

I'm working all day tomorrow, so will get back to this Thursday.

Sleep disorders, delusions of grandeur, precipitating psychotic episodes, developing nervous tics, suicides, stuff like that.

I hope the links I'll be looking for are still extant, I know a couple that have disappeared.

David

I think that is the biggest line of b.s and you best have some proof to back this up.

I've just remembered that I need to get back to this.

The internet changes over the years, and the direct link to what I wanted is hard to find, but this will have to do. It contains links to studies and to personal reports.

http://www.suggestibility.org/isThereABottom.php

Note that this focusses on Transcendental Meditation, but further note that TM is a form of meditation which relies on an initiation ceremony, and then the use of a mantra.

It is meditations with these two features in common that I am concerned with.

David

[Brianna]

I mediate better when I take my Adderall. I also find that if I stop trying to control my thoughts, I can let go of them easier.


My biggest problem is repression. Im always in a constant battle with my emotions. Ive begun to realize I cant win.

Everything is emotional for me first. I quit trying to battle them. I don't allow them to control me. I ride them out and once I get past them, I can focus on the reality and facts of the issue at hand.

[Brianna]

I'm working all day tomorrow, so will get back to this Thursday.

Sleep disorders, delusions of grandeur, precipitating psychotic episodes, developing nervous tics, suicides, stuff like that.

I hope the links I'll be looking for are still extant, I know a couple that have disappeared.

David

I think that is the biggest line of b.s and you best have some proof to back this up.

I've just remembered that I need to get back to this.

The internet changes over the years, and the direct link to what I wanted is hard to find, but this will have to do. It contains links to studies and to personal reports.

http://www.suggestibility.org/isThereABottom.php

Note that this focusses on Transcendental Meditation, but further note that TM is a form of meditation which relies on an initiation ceremony, and then the use of a mantra.

It is meditations with these two features in common that I am concerned with.

David

That isn't medical proof of anything. That is like saying that because some mushrooms are poisonous all mushrooms must be bad for you. If you are going to go around preaching that meditation is bad for you, then I suggest you get some real proof.

Not to mention, it looks like it is from 1996!

[Oolon Colluphid]

Seems to me that some varieties are bad in general -- if nothing else, for their concomitant promotion of woo -- and that all varieties can potentially be bad for some people.

I suggest the packaging needs a health warning, along the lines of the ones for over-the-counter medicines ("Do not take if you are pregnant, lactating..." etc). "Consult your doctor, mental health professional or other reliable source before proceeding with meditation."

Sure, it can do some people, maybe a lot of people, some good. But there's no point ignoring the fact that there are contraindications for some folks.

[Brianna]

Seems to me that some varieties are bad in general -- if nothing else, for their concomitant promotion of woo -- and that all varieties can potentially be bad for some people.

I suggest the packaging needs a health warning, along the lines of the ones for over-the-counter medicines ("Do not take if you are pregnant, lactating..." etc). "Consult your doctor, mental health professional or other reliable source before proceeding with meditation."

Sure, it can do some people, maybe a lot of people, some good. But there's no point ignoring the fact that there are contraindications for some folks.

So if my medical doctor is recommending me to meditate because it helps me be less emotional and more intelligent, you suggest based on this evidence that I ignore my very intelligent, very good doctor, who listens to me and understands me based the fact that some people might think meditation is woo?

I am also going with the fact that I have been presented with no concrete evidence that proves that mediation is bad for anyone. I can't imagine, how sitting down and calming your thoughts, being mindful of your surroundings, and focusing on your breathing can possibly have any other side effects then being more calm and focused. I haven't seen anything that is linked to a medical journal, done by medical doctors.

If you are taking something to induce a meditative state, it isn't meditation. It is recreational drug use.

You know if the rolls were reversed, you'd be even more hard on me for not being able to provide concrete proof.

[Garrett]

But there's no point ignoring the fact that there are contraindications for some folks.
Fact? That some people have eating disorders doesn't mean that eating is not a very good thing. Necessary, even.

[Garrett]

Note that this focusses on Transcendental Meditation, but further note that TM is a form of meditation which relies on an initiation ceremony, and then the use of a mantra.

It is meditations with these two features in common that I am concerned with.

David
We talking about TM or about meditation? And wtf is so wrong with initiation ceremonies and mantras?

[hecaterin]

Seems to me that some varieties are bad in general -- if nothing else, for their concomitant promotion of woo -- and that all varieties can potentially be bad for some people.

I suggest the packaging needs a health warning, along the lines of the ones for over-the-counter medicines ("Do not take if you are pregnant, lactating..." etc). "Consult your doctor, mental health professional or other reliable source before proceeding with meditation."

Sure, it can do some people, maybe a lot of people, some good. But there's no point ignoring the fact that there are contraindications for some folks.

So if my medical doctor is recommending me to meditate because it helps me be less emotional and more intelligent, you suggest based on this evidence that I ignore my very intelligent, very good doctor, who listens to me and understands me based the fact that some people might think meditation is woo?That's not what Oolon said at all. It's hard to see how "some contraindications for some folks; consult your doctor" could be twisted into "your doctor is a loon".

I'm sure you can see the problem with the whole cult thing of TM. Not to mention the Hare Krishnas and Baba Rams and other gurus who promise you that their meditation technique will give you magic superpowers, and then take all your money.

Anyway, the whole mindfulness thing is a modern creation of psychology. It was developed by deliberate stripping away of the magic and mysticism to leave just the actually helpful stuff. It is in general a good thing and not at all like TM.

[Brianna]

Seems to me that some varieties are bad in general -- if nothing else, for their concomitant promotion of woo -- and that all varieties can potentially be bad for some people.

I suggest the packaging needs a health warning, along the lines of the ones for over-the-counter medicines ("Do not take if you are pregnant, lactating..." etc). "Consult your doctor, mental health professional or other reliable source before proceeding with meditation."

Sure, it can do some people, maybe a lot of people, some good. But there's no point ignoring the fact that there are contraindications for some folks.

So if my medical doctor is recommending me to meditate because it helps me be less emotional and more intelligent, you suggest based on this evidence that I ignore my very intelligent, very good doctor, who listens to me and understands me based the fact that some people might think meditation is woo?That's not what Oolon said at all. It's hard to see how "some contraindications for some folks; consult your doctor" could be twisted into "your doctor is a loon".

I'm sure you can see the problem with the whole cult thing of TM. Not to mention the Hare Krishnas and Baba Rams and other gurus who promise you that their meditation technique will give you magic superpowers, and then take all your money.

Anyway, the whole mindfulness thing is a modern creation of psychology. It was developed by deliberate stripping away of the magic and mysticism to leave just the actually helpful stuff. It is in general a good thing and not at all like TM.

I don't see how TM is meditation at all. I don't know how someone who is discussing meditation could group the two in the same category. I did not link the link in the first place.

I didn't say my doctor was a loon. I was asking Oolon should I trust the internet over my doctor, because clearly that is what he seems to be suggesting.

I am still waiting for my proof.

[hecaterin]

Brianna, please, that is not what Oolon said. I do not see how you can possibly read that into his perfectly common sense statement.

As for TM (ie "Transcendental Meditation") not actually being meditation - err, what??? Obviously it's not the good and helpful form of meditation; we can all agree on that, at least. It's meditation tied into a cult. It actually predates the development of mindfulness meditation in psychology and was a huge movement in the 60s & 70s. Cults and quacks can use good things badly, you know.

[Oolon Colluphid]

I didn't say my doctor was a loon. I was asking Oolon should I trust the internet over my doctor, because clearly that is what he seems to be suggesting.


No.

[Brianna]

I didn't say my doctor was a loon. I was asking Oolon should I trust the internet over my doctor, because clearly that is what he seems to be suggesting.


No.

Alright.

[Brianna]

Brianna, please, that is not what Oolon said. I do not see how you can possibly read that into his perfectly common sense statement.

As for TM (ie "Transcendental Meditation") not actually being meditation - err, what??? Obviously it's not the good and helpful form of meditation; we can all agree on that, at least. It's meditation tied into a cult. It actually predates the development of mindfulness meditation in psychology and was a huge movement in the 60s & 70s. Cults and quacks can use good things badly, you know.

Never heard of it. I was born 1976.

I am still waiting for my proof that MEDITATION is bad for you.

[Garrett]

As for TM (ie "Transcendental Meditation") not actually being meditation - err, what???
TM utilizes meditation. Like the way communion utilizes eating and drinking.

Obviously it's not the good and helpful form of meditation; we can all agree on that, at least.
No, TM is not a "form of" meditation. It's a form of religion that happens to use meditation. The meditation part of TM is fine. Read the Wikipedia article.

[David B]

As for TM (ie "Transcendental Meditation") not actually being meditation - err, what???
TM utilizes meditation. Like the way communion utilizes eating and drinking.

Obviously it's not the good and helpful form of meditation; we can all agree on that, at least.
No, TM is not a "form of" meditation. It's a form of religion that happens to use meditation. The meditation part of TM is fine. Read the Wikipedia article.

I know more about the meditation part of TM than the wiki article.

David

[Brianna]

As for TM (ie "Transcendental Meditation") not actually being meditation - err, what???
TM utilizes meditation. Like the way communion utilizes eating and drinking.

Obviously it's not the good and helpful form of meditation; we can all agree on that, at least.
No, TM is not a "form of" meditation. It's a form of religion that happens to use meditation. The meditation part of TM is fine. Read the Wikipedia article.

I know more about the meditation part of TM than the wiki article.

David

That is great. You got any proof that isn't anecdotal doctor?

[sidhe]

Anyone here know that Bri has her own, personal, research librarian? :D

Studies on meditation, all peer-reviewed:

Oman, Doug et al. "Meditation Lowers Stress and Supports Forgiveness Among College Students: A Randomized Controlled Trial." Journal of American College Health 56, no. 5 (March 2008): 569-578. MasterFILE Premier, EBSCOhost (accessed April 27, 2009).

Objective and Participants: The authors evaluated the effects on stress, rumination, forgiveness, and hope of two 8-week, 90-min/wk training programs for college undergraduates in meditation-based stress-management tools. Methods: After a pretest, the authors randomly allocated college undergraduates to training in mindfulness-based stress reduction (MBSR; n = 15), Easwaran's Eight-Point Program (EPP; n = 14), or wait-list control (n = 15). The authors gathered pretest, posttest, and 8-week follow-up data on self-report outcome measures. Results: The authors observed no post-treatment differences between MBSR and EPP or between posttest and 8-week follow-up (p > .10). Compared with controls, treated participants (n = 29) demonstrated significant benefits for stress (p < .05, Cohen's d = -.45) and forgiveness (p < .05, d = .34) and marginal benefits for rumination (p < .10, d = -.34). Conclusions: Evidence suggests that meditation-based stress-management practices reduce stress and enhance forgiveness among college undergraduates. Such programs merit further study as potential health-promotion tools for college populations.

"Mindfulness in a hectic world." Harvard Women's Health Watch 16, no. 8 (April 2009): 1-1. MasterFILE Premier, EBSCOhost (accessed April 27, 2009).

The article focuses on the practice of mindfulness as well as its benefits to one's physical and mental health. It is done in a meditation-like appreciation of present situations without shifting thoughts to other concerns. Such routine can be traced back to Buddhism and can supposedly calm the mind and body. It notes that paying attention to simple tasks such as waiting in line can help ease stress and pressure. Tips on integrating mindfulness in one's daily activities are also provided.

This one touches on some issues with adapting Buddhist views to Western psychology, as well as some benefits...

Michalon, Max. ""Selflessness" in the Service of the Ego: Contributions, Limitations and Dangers of Buddhist Psychology for Western Psychology." American Journal of Psychotherapy 55, no. 2 (Spring2001 2001): 202. MasterFILE Premier, EBSCOhost (accessed April 27, 2009).

With the notions of "Self" and "No self" placed at the interface of Buddhist psychology and Western psychotherapies, this article: (i) attempts a description of the pros and cons of the two approaches and (ii) points at a probably greater therapeutic potential when the two work hand in hand rather than as antagonists. Some of the limitations resulting from such a joint approach will also be highlighted.

Amy B. Wachholtz, Kenneth I. Pargament. "Is Spirituality a Critical Ingredient of Meditation? Comparing the Effects of Spiritual Meditation, Secular Meditation, and Relaxation on Spiritual, Psychological, Cardiac, and Pain Outcomes." Journal of Behavioral Medicine 28, no. 4 (August 1, 2005): 369-84. http://www.proquest.com/ (accessed April 27, 2009).

This study compared secular and spiritual forms of meditation to assess the benefits of a spiritual intervention. Participants were taught a meditation or relaxation technique to practice for 20 min a day for two weeks. After two weeks, participants returned to the lab, practiced their technique for 20 min, and placed their hand in a cold-water bath of 2°C for as long as they could endure it. The length of time that individuals kept their hand in the water bath was measured. Pain, anxiety, mood, and the spiritual health were assessed following the two-week intervention. Significant interactions occurred (time × group); the Spiritual Meditation group had greater decreases in anxiety and more positive mood, spiritual health, and spiritual experiences than the other two groups. They also tolerated pain almost twice as long as the other two groups.

And, because I'm all equal-opportunity here...

Yorston, Graeme A. "Mania precipitated by meditation: a case report and literature review." Mental Health, Religion & Culture 4, no. 2 (November 2001): 209-213. Psychology and Behavioral Sciences Collection, EBSCOhost (accessed April 27, 2009).

Meditation is a popular method of relaxation and dealing with everyday stress. Meditative techniques have been used in the management of a number of psychiatric and physical illnesses. The risk of serious mental illness being precipitated by meditation is less well recognized however. This paper reports a case in which two separate manic episodes arose after meditation using techniques from two different traditions (yoga and zen). Other cases of psychotic illness precipitated by meditation and mystical speculation reported in the literature are discussed.

So...that's three for, one against, and one that's Swiss. But, since it's been brought up that TM in particular has considerable risks...

Walton, Kenneth G. et al. "Psychosocial Stress and Cardiovascular Disease Part 2: Effectiveness of the Transcendental Meditation Program in Treatment and Prevention." Behavioral Medicine 28, no. 3 (Fall2002 2002): 106. Psychology and Behavioral Sciences Collection, EBSCOhost (accessed April 27, 2009).

Psychosocial stress is a nontraditional risk factor for cardiovascular morbidity and mortality that may respond to behavioral or psychosocial interventions. To date, studies applying such interventions have reported a wide range of success rates in treatment or prevention of cardiovascular disease (CVD). The authors focus on a natural medicine approach that research indicates reduces both psychosocial and traditional risk factors for cardiovascular disease the Transcendental Meditation (TM) program. Randomized controlled trials, meta-analyses, and other controlled studies indicate this meditation technique reduces risk factors and can slow or reverse the progression of pathophysiological changes underlying cardiovascular disease. Studies with this technique have revealed reductions in blood pressure, carotid artery intima-media thickness, myocardial ischemia, left ventricular hypertrophy, mortality, and other relevant outcomes. The magnitudes of" these effects' compare favorably with those of conventional interventions for secondary prevention.

Barnes, Vernon A. et al. "Impact of the Transcendental Meditation Program on Mortality in Older African Americans with Hypertension -- Eight-Year Follow-Up." Journal of Social Behavior & Personality 17, no. 1 (March 2005): 201-216. Psychology and Behavioral Sciences Collection, EBSCOhost (accessed April 27, 2009).

Older African Americans (N = 109, mean age 67 years) with mild hypertension were randomly assigned to the Transcendental Meditation (TM) program, progressive muscle relaxation, or a health education control. During the 8-year follow-up, 25 patients died: 5 in the TM group, 10 in the progressive muscle relaxation group, and 10 in the control group. There were 11 cardiovascular disease (CVD) fatalities: 1 in the TM group, 4 in the progressive muscle relaxation group, and 6 in the health education group. CVD mortality relative risk was .19 (p < .05) for TM compared to the health education control group. These data suggest that stress reduction with the TM program may offer benefit for reducing CVD mortality.

So, that's some non-anecdotal evidence.

[David B]

I'll chase those up when I get back from hols.

Occasionally 'research' done in house by the TM movement, like that from believers in the power of prayer, does get into peer reviewed publications.

I was involved in the printing of the first and second editions of collected papers on TM, a long time ago now.

The methodology of them was appalling.

I have a copy of the Ist edition as a souvenir, at home.

David.

[sidhe]

I'll chase those up when I get back from hols.

Occasionally 'research' done in house by the TM movement, like that from believers in the power of prayer, does get into peer reviewed publications.

I was involved in the printing of the first and second editions of collected papers on TM, a long time ago now.

The methodology of them was appalling.

I have a copy of the Ist edition as a souvenir, at home.

David.

The ones specifically relating to TM seem to be in-house, quite possibly. The only people citing them are either refuting the claims or are the author's themselves.

That, and that they were sponsored by the Institute for Maharishi Consciousness might be a tip-off.

The remaining papers would still require some consideration.

[David B]

I'll chase those up when I get back from hols.

Occasionally 'research' done in house by the TM movement, like that from believers in the power of prayer, does get into peer reviewed publications.

I was involved in the printing of the first and second editions of collected papers on TM, a long time ago now.

The methodology of them was appalling.

I have a copy of the Ist edition as a souvenir, at home.

David.

The ones specifically relating to TM seem to be in-house, quite possibly. The only people citing them are either refuting the claims or are the author's themselves.

That, and that they were sponsored by the Institute for Maharishi Consciousness might be a tip-off.

The remaining papers would still require some consideration.

Yes, indeed.

And sometimes therapeutic effects of things are greater than potential side effects. Hypnotism, for example, in certain circumstances, I understand can be useful.

David

Davd