Religion: personal ethical system vs. means of social control

[lpetrich]

Treating the purportedly historical parts of the Bible as literal documentaries, we find zero evidence for the earliest books of the Bible. ...
LOL!!! I guess we will have to address it point by point one day in a different thread. I am only going to ask a question. If the biblical historical accounts are so out of whack how come Christianity has been growing steadily for the last 2000 years?
Because historical accuracy is NOT necessary for a religion to get followers. Hentenza, you ought to be aware of that about religions other than Xianity, and even about all the Xian sects that you consider heretical.

Many Fundamentalists consider Catholics to be Mary-worshipping and saint-worshipping idolators who follow an impostor called the Pope. Hentenza, if you agree with that opinion of Catholicism, then why not explain to us why it continues to be the largest Xian sect? And if you think that those fundies are wrong about that, then can you explain why those fundies continue to believe that?

Does the growth of Islam mean that God likes to be called Allah, that Jesus Christ was a proto-Muslim who did not die for anyone's sins, that the Bible is corrupted but the Koran is not, etc.?

Does the growth of Mormonism mean that its founder had discovered some extra sacred books written on golden tablets in a hill in upstate New York?

Does the growth of Scientology mean that our souls, er, thetans had been imprisoned on Earth by a space tyrant named Xenu?

Hentenza, I have worked out how high above the Earth's surface Jesus Christ would have to be to see "all the kingdoms of the world" and various subsets of them. (...)

Looking at these heights, I note that the Bible doesn't state that the Devil took Jesus Christ into outer space.
In a couple of thousand years some one is going to unearth a book from our civilization saying how the sun rises and sets and the folks then are going to conclusively conclude that we believed that the sun rotated around the earth. Man, you gotta get out more.:D
What makes you so sure that that is a reasonable analogy?

[SallyAnne]

It was something I truly hadn't expected
I can relate.
so we have to be open to what it is that ails us and allow God to shine on it even though it is very painful because it isn't always what we first assume....
I agree (with the bolded part).

When I went through the exercise of hacking into my own brain to find out where the problem lay, I assumed it would lead to a strengthening of my Christian faith.

Instead, my faith just melted away, completely. Not immediately, mind you; the "melting" actually took a decade or so -- a decade full of pondering, learning, reading, and writing about it. But imagine my surprise at the result!

Now, looking back at my Christian phase, it's like remembering a bad dream.


Oh no, that sounds awful.:(

My experience is too personal to relay on a public forum and I only have the courage to speak with one solitary trusted person in real life about it even to this day. So forgive me for not going into the details because it still hurts but I'm thankful that it at least came to the surface so that God could help me come to terms with it.

But thanks for sharing something of your experience, I understand that it is painful even to recall such things for discussion even though we have moved on from them.....

[David M]

7 And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood.

8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth,

9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.

10 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.

11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.

13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark ; Wait a minute...
What came to pass after seven days? As I was reading along, it looked like the Arkonauts all boarded the vessel, then waited seven days, then the rain and the "fountains" started. But then it says "the selfsame day".

It's almost as if the story had been stitched together from at least two different versions of it.

Not really, its says that the ark was loaded with the animals, and that after 7 days the flood started, and on that 7th day Noah and his family boarded the ark. Selfsame refers to the 17th day of the 2nd month.

[VoxRat]

... We know that YEC cannot be true unless there is other information that science has not yet discovered, but at this point in time, Genesis 1 HAS to be a parable.How did the only choices get to be "literal truth" or "parable". What about: "myth"? Every culture had a creation myth it seems. Were they all really "parables"? Or were they, maybe, stories that storytellers told because everyone is curious to know "where things came from", and the only game in town was the storytellers' imaginations?

[Lisa0315]

... We know that YEC cannot be true unless there is other information that science has not yet discovered, but at this point in time, Genesis 1 HAS to be a parable.How did the only choices get to be "literal truth" or "parable". What about: "myth"? Every culture had a creation myth it seems. Were they all really "parables"? Or were they, maybe, stories that storytellers told because everyone is curious to know "where things came from", and the only game in town was the storytellers' imaginations?

Honestly? Because to say that it was included and was not at least a parable of what actually happened, then, it leads to throwing out other parts of the Bible completely too. This is a dangerous area for me if I CHOOSE to retain my faith. :o

Lisa

[VoxRat]

...
Not really, its says that the ark was loaded with the animals, and that after 7 days the flood started, and on that 7th day Noah and his family boarded the ark. Selfsame refers to the 17th day of the 2nd month.:confused:
So you're saying that when Genesis says:
7 And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood. ... they just neglected to mention that they came back off the ark, and then got back aboard 7 days later?

OK. It all makes sense now :rolleyes:

[VoxRat]

Honestly? Because to say that it was included and was not at least a parable of what actually happened, then, it leads to throwing out other parts of the Bible completely too. This is a dangerous area for me if I CHOOSE to retain my faith. :o

LisaQED

[David M]

What does this have to do with the price of fish? Islam is currently the world's fastest growing religion. Does that make it better than Christianity?

Would you like to support that claim.

Islam is certainly the fastest growing religion in europe based on number of worshippers, but this increase mainly comes from immigration. On a worldwide level this becomes irrelevant as movement of believers is from one locale to another is not the gaining of new adherents.

In terms of the flat number of new adherents a number of sources put christianity at about 30 million (1.36%) per year and islam at about 23 million (1.77%) per year between 2000 and 20005.

Using the percent increase is deception as by that criteria its certainly neither christianity or Islam that is growing fastest, it will be one of the very small religions as even a small number of converts is a measurable percentage increase. Apparently between 1990 and 2000 in the US deism grew by 717%.

[Lisa0315]

Just wait until the Rapture! Then, Christianity will be the fastest disappearing religion! ;)

[SallyAnne]

I think you've interpreted me all wrong.
That may be true. But in that case, can you see how your words lend themselves easily to that misinterpretation? Because...
So contrary to you thinking that I can't relate to or even identify with this pain I actually can and have no desire to add to the woes of others, especially not my brethren, weak or strong, who I love dearly.
... it appears to be important to you. So be careful. Not with me, but with your fellow Christians. :)



Yes, I can see what you're saying. I honestly thought I was helping, I was being bold in what I was saying because I was desparate to make that distinction so a struggling Christian (or anyone else) can understand that this plague of guilt and condemnation does not come from God. I wanted to make that crystal clear because I have suffered so greatly from it. In no way whatsoever did I mean to blame the sufferer by default even though you have said that is how it can be interpreted. I guess I just assumed too much because I know what I've been through but nobody else does so it's not like they fully know my intentions (which were to only try and help not add to woes).

But yes I do need to be careful about how I express myself regarding that. Thank you.:)

[David M]

...
Not really, its says that the ark was loaded with the animals, and that after 7 days the flood started, and on that 7th day Noah and his family boarded the ark. Selfsame refers to the 17th day of the 2nd month.:confused:
So you're saying that when Genesis says:
7 And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood. ... they just neglected to mention that they came back off the ark, and then got back aboard 7 days later?

OK. It all makes sense now :rolleyes:

No, 8-13 is just fuller description of 7 that gives a sequence of events within the summary given in 7. That does make sense.

Only someone expecting to see a wholly accurate historic account would read it your way, you biblical literalist you. Its a story.

[Lisa0315]

...
Not really, its says that the ark was loaded with the animals, and that after 7 days the flood started, and on that 7th day Noah and his family boarded the ark. Selfsame refers to the 17th day of the 2nd month.:confused:
So you're saying that when Genesis says:
7 And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood. ... they just neglected to mention that they came back off the ark, and then got back aboard 7 days later?

OK. It all makes sense now :rolleyes:

No, 8-13 is just fuller description of 7 that gives a sequence of events within the summary given in 7. That does make sense.

Only someone expecting to see a wholly accurate historic account would read it your way, you biblical literalist you. Its a story.

*snicker*

[SallyAnne]

A visiting preacher came to our church and told a preacher's story. There was a family who had recently lost a child. He just collapsed on the ballfield. The preacher said that the parents were very supportive of the child's sporting activities to the point that they would sometimes not come to Sunday School or miss Wednesday nights. He said that God took their child because they had not been faithful enough. He said that they were at every service now without fail. I have been back to church about three times since this.

This is not rare.



Blimey, that's shocking.:eek: I've never been a regular church-goer ever in my life so when I hear of stuff like this I wonder if it could even be true...

I think the longest time I've ever spent in a church was on a 12 week Alpha course when I got baptised. I just don't feel drawn to attend church at all. And I might have been to maybe 4 or 5 sunday services over my entire life.

Am I supposed to feel guilty about that?:dunno::(

Tough luck because I don't. :p

I wonder what unpleasantness that doom preacher you describe would preach to me for not even attending at all. yikes.:eek:

[VoxRat]

A visiting preacher came to our church and told a preacher's story. There was a family who had recently lost a child. He just collapsed on the ballfield. The preacher said that the parents were very supportive of the child's sporting activities to the point that they would sometimes not come to Sunday School or miss Wednesday nights. He said that God took their child because they had not been faithful enough. He said that they were at every service now without fail. I have been back to church about three times since this.

:eek:

This preacher told this story about himself, or was he badmouthing another preacher? That's just incredible.

[SallyAnne]

A visiting preacher came to our church and told a preacher's story. There was a family who had recently lost a child. He just collapsed on the ballfield. The preacher said that the parents were very supportive of the child's sporting activities to the point that they would sometimes not come to Sunday School or miss Wednesday nights. He said that God took their child because they had not been faithful enough. He said that they were at every service now without fail. I have been back to church about three times since this.

:eek:

This preacher told this story about himself, or was he badmouthing another preacher? That's just incredible.



It sounds to me like this visiting preacher was describing one of his own parishoners, but I'm not sure, it is too incredible for words....:eek:

Lisa, did anyone in your church speak against what he was saying? Did anyone question him or did they just sit there speechless and in shock like we are now?

notice my horrified expression -----> :eek:

[sohy]

Instead, my faith just melted away, completely. Not immediately, mind you; the "melting" actually took a decade or so -- a decade full of pondering, learning, reading, and writing about it. But imagine my surprise at the result!

Now, looking back at my Christian phase, it's like remembering a bad dream.

You too? I had a similar experience, although it took a little bit less than a decade, and I didn't spend the entire time as a Xian. I also seriously considered other religions, always looking for the truth. It was exciting, sometimes exasperating, but in the end enlightening. I look back fondly on that adventure and still feel a sense of joy and relief when I think of the day I was set free. I think Xians often fail to realize that those of us who stop believing, reach that place after much consideration. We frequently pray for help and guidance as we struggle with what at first seems like a loss. When we realize our prayers are never heard, we try again. Eventually we come to terms with the fact that we are alone in this magnificent universe. That was a powerful and satisfying awakening for me. It's been more than thirty years and I've never regretted that journey.


*sohy, who rarely argues with theists, slips back to lurk mode*

[Lisa0315]

A visiting preacher came to our church and told a preacher's story. There was a family who had recently lost a child. He just collapsed on the ballfield. The preacher said that the parents were very supportive of the child's sporting activities to the point that they would sometimes not come to Sunday School or miss Wednesday nights. He said that God took their child because they had not been faithful enough. He said that they were at every service now without fail. I have been back to church about three times since this.

:eek:

This preacher told this story about himself, or was he badmouthing another preacher? That's just incredible.

The visiting preacher was telling a story about one of the families in his church.

Lisa

[Lisa0315]

A visiting preacher came to our church and told a preacher's story. There was a family who had recently lost a child. He just collapsed on the ballfield. The preacher said that the parents were very supportive of the child's sporting activities to the point that they would sometimes not come to Sunday School or miss Wednesday nights. He said that God took their child because they had not been faithful enough. He said that they were at every service now without fail. I have been back to church about three times since this.

:eek:

This preacher told this story about himself, or was he badmouthing another preacher? That's just incredible.



It sounds to me like this visiting preacher was describing one of his own parishoners, but I'm not sure, it is too incredible for words....:eek:

Lisa, did anyone in your church speak against what he was saying? Did anyone question him or did they just sit there speechless and in shock like we are now?

notice my horrified expression -----> :eek:

I don't know. I have been over at my uncle's house when the phone would ring off the hook over something that was said, but I wasn't there this time. I was so horrified that I left immediately after the service. The next day I mentioned it to my mother, and she agreed with me. The thing is that visiting preacher is my uncle's brother-in-law. That guy is married to my uncle's wife's sister. No blood relationship, but still...so I couldn't say anything that might not hurt my aunt's feelings.

Anyway, my Mom told me that when she heard stuff like that she just would ignore it. I cannot ignore it. I couldn't go back to church after that. I have been a couple of times since, I think. I know of once when my grandmother died, I just wanted to be with my family, so I went to church that morning we got the news. It seems like there was another time, but I forget.

Lisa

[Lisa0315]

Oh, btw...for those who have never heard the expression...a preacher's story, or a preacher's tale is an old joke about how preacher's exaggerate to make a point. Some even say they make the stories up. I have 4 preachers in the family and they all swear that their stories are true.

Lisa

[VoxRat]

...
You are certainly entitled to your opinion but you are yet to post any evidence.Doesn't the burden of evidence fall on the people who say "X is True", rather than on the people who say "I doubt it"?

The premise was his. Please go back and read the claim(s).
Here's the claim in question:

Oh, I wouldn't say that. Seems to me that lots and lots of brilliant people have debunked it with great success. I was born and raised a believer, but now I'm an atheist. In fact it's the ones who *defend* the Bible, or a literal reading thereof, that seem to be singularly unsuccessful to me.So the question becomes: "what is that"?
Man, some of the brightest minds through history have attempted to debunk the bible with little success. Those are YOUR words, not his.

[SallyAnne]

:eek:

This preacher told this story about himself, or was he badmouthing another preacher? That's just incredible.



It sounds to me like this visiting preacher was describing one of his own parishoners, but I'm not sure, it is too incredible for words....:eek:

Lisa, did anyone in your church speak against what he was saying? Did anyone question him or did they just sit there speechless and in shock like we are now?

notice my horrified expression -----> :eek:

I don't know. I have been over at my uncle's house when the phone would ring off the hook over something that was said, but I wasn't there this time. I was so horrified that I left immediately after the service. The next day I mentioned it to my mother, and she agreed with me. The thing is that visiting preacher is my uncle's brother-in-law. That guy is married to my uncle's wife's sister. No blood relationship, but still...so I couldn't say anything that might not hurt my aunt's feelings.

Anyway, my Mom told me that when she heard stuff like that she just would ignore it. I cannot ignore it. I couldn't go back to church after that. I have been a couple of times since, I think. I know of once when my grandmother died, I just wanted to be with my family, so I went to church that morning we got the news. It seems like there was another time, but I forget.

Lisa


Wow, that's really a tough thing to have to deal with, sensitive and difficult because of family. My jaw was dropping as I read that story, couldn't freaking believe it and it made me angry....I don't blame you for leaving, I couldn't have stomached that either....:(

[Lisa0315]

It sounds to me like this visiting preacher was describing one of his own parishoners, but I'm not sure, it is too incredible for words....:eek:

Lisa, did anyone in your church speak against what he was saying? Did anyone question him or did they just sit there speechless and in shock like we are now?

notice my horrified expression -----> :eek:

I don't know. I have been over at my uncle's house when the phone would ring off the hook over something that was said, but I wasn't there this time. I was so horrified that I left immediately after the service. The next day I mentioned it to my mother, and she agreed with me. The thing is that visiting preacher is my uncle's brother-in-law. That guy is married to my uncle's wife's sister. No blood relationship, but still...so I couldn't say anything that might not hurt my aunt's feelings.

Anyway, my Mom told me that when she heard stuff like that she just would ignore it. I cannot ignore it. I couldn't go back to church after that. I have been a couple of times since, I think. I know of once when my grandmother died, I just wanted to be with my family, so I went to church that morning we got the news. It seems like there was another time, but I forget.

Lisa


Wow, that's really a tough thing to have to deal with, sensitive and difficult because of family. My jaw was dropping as I read that story, couldn't freaking believe it and it made me angry....I don't blame you for leaving, I couldn't have stomached that either....:(

I am not sure I mentioned that my uncle is the pastor of the church my family attends. So, the pastor's family has to be triple-good. It is a lot of pressure, let me tell you.

Lisa

[Lanakila]

Guilt and condemnation is NOT from God. If a Christian is coming under guilt to the point of continual condemnation then they are not listening to God, but to themselves and the enemy.
A perfect example of purveying meta-guilt (guilt about guilt). The Christians who do tend to feel a lot of guilt, all the time, will simply feel more guilty from reading stuff like this.

In other words, you're part of the problem.Nailed it Brother Daniel. I also used to part of the problem. My main guilt as a believer was survivors guilt and it got worse and worse the more I debated and talked to atheists.

[Lanakila]

It was something I truly hadn't expected
I can relate.
so we have to be open to what it is that ails us and allow God to shine on it even though it is very painful because it isn't always what we first assume....
I agree (with the bolded part).

When I went through the exercise of hacking into my own brain to find out where the problem lay, I assumed it would lead to a strengthening of my Christian faith.

Instead, my faith just melted away, completely. Not immediately, mind you; the "melting" actually took a decade or so -- a decade full of pondering, learning, reading, and writing about it. But imagine my surprise at the result!

Now, looking back at my Christian phase, it's like remembering a bad dream.
Dude I can so relate to this. Reading Rene De Cartes is not a good way to remain a believer, and I'm pretty sure that was what opened my mind to questioning. Looking back when I first realized that modern Christianity cherry picks things from the OT, tithing specifically, that fit what makes it work. When I rejected tithing as part of the law and started giving as I felt necessary I was questioning and challenging the status quo.

[Lanakila]

I don't know. I have been over at my uncle's house when the phone would ring off the hook over something that was said, but I wasn't there this time. I was so horrified that I left immediately after the service. The next day I mentioned it to my mother, and she agreed with me. The thing is that visiting preacher is my uncle's brother-in-law. That guy is married to my uncle's wife's sister. No blood relationship, but still...so I couldn't say anything that might not hurt my aunt's feelings.

Anyway, my Mom told me that when she heard stuff like that she just would ignore it. I cannot ignore it. I couldn't go back to church after that. I have been a couple of times since, I think. I know of once when my grandmother died, I just wanted to be with my family, so I went to church that morning we got the news. It seems like there was another time, but I forget.

Lisa


Wow, that's really a tough thing to have to deal with, sensitive and difficult because of family. My jaw was dropping as I read that story, couldn't freaking believe it and it made me angry....I don't blame you for leaving, I couldn't have stomached that either....:(

I am not sure I mentioned that my uncle is the pastor of the church my family attends. So, the pastor's family has to be triple-good. It is a lot of pressure, let me tell you.

Lisa

Oh my can I relate. It's the fishbowl and is comparative to what President Obama's family is going through. My god I caught myself saying: The First Dog is ugly.

[SallyAnne]

Guilt and condemnation is NOT from God. If a Christian is coming under guilt to the point of continual condemnation then they are not listening to God, but to themselves and the enemy.
A perfect example of purveying meta-guilt (guilt about guilt). The Christians who do tend to feel a lot of guilt, all the time, will simply feel more guilty from reading stuff like this.

In other words, you're part of the problem.Nailed it Brother Daniel. I also used to part of the problem. My main guilt as a believer was survivors guilt and it got worse and worse the more I debated and talked to atheists.



At least you and all the others here who fell away from the faith are happy now.:)

[Pendaric]

Re the Noah story - the reason why the story doesn't make good sense as told in the bible is because it is 2 accounts mingled in to one. It's one of the key evidences for the Documentary Hypothesis.

Take a look at this (it only takes a couple of minutes):

http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/2/Judaism/jp-flood.html

This divides out the passages in to the 2 distinct stories as they originally were, and you can clearly see that there are 2 separate accounts of the same thing which have been intermingled.

[Hex]

I think it's pretty well accepted that the story was stitched together from at least two different versions.

Yahweh would have got away with it if it weren't for Tiamat and those pesky Sumerians!

[VoxRat]

Re the Noah story - the reason why the story doesn't make good sense as told in the bible is because it is 2 accounts mingled in to one. It's one of the key evidences for the Documentary Hypothesis.

Take a look at this (it only takes a couple of minutes):

http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/2/Judaism/jp-flood.html

This divides out the passages in to the 2 distinct stories as they originally were, and you can clearly see that there are 2 separate accounts of the same thing which have been intermingled.See?
I was right!
Originally Posted by VoxRat
It's almost as if the story had been stitched together from at least two different versions of it.
IN YOUR FACE, David M!!!1!!1!!
...
No, 8-13 is just fuller description of 7 that gives a sequence of events within the summary given in 7. That does make sense.

Only someone expecting to see a wholly accurate historic account would read it your way, you biblical literalist you. Its a story.

[Jobar]

When I started this thread, I meant it to be a discussion about liberal Christians and conservative/fundamentalist ones, and a possible way for us unbelievers to tell the difference with greater certainty. (It's sometimes hard for us to tell.)

But it's galloped madly off in all directions, and spawned any number of new threads. Sometimes it's best to leave discussions like this unmoderated, and let them run as they will. Early on I suggested splitting out some of the subsidiary topics, but now I'm glad we didn't. :)

At least you and all the others here who fell away from the faith are happy now. :)

That's a very individual thing, Sally. For some of us, leaving the faiths of our fathers was very painful, and the cause of much strife; conflict within our families, loss of friends, divorces. And that's not even considering the internal struggles.

For others it was a truly liberating experience, and a mostly unmitigated source of happiness and strength.

In the past, I've told some of the ones for whom it's been painful, that it can be like a trip to the dentist. There's a part of you, like a tooth, that is producing dreadful pain, and can't be ignored; the longer you try to, the worse things get. When you finally give in and go have it removed, it may be even more agonizing for a short time. And after the ordeal, there's a hole, an empty place.

But afterwards, the pain goes away. The rotten part is gone, and you heal. Eventually you get used to that empty spot, and your overall health and happiness improves.

[David M]

Re the Noah story - the reason why the story doesn't make good sense as told in the bible is because it is 2 accounts mingled in to one. It's one of the key evidences for the Documentary Hypothesis.

Take a look at this (it only takes a couple of minutes):

http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/2/Judaism/jp-flood.html

This divides out the passages in to the 2 distinct stories as they originally were, and you can clearly see that there are 2 separate accounts of the same thing which have been intermingled.See?
I was right!
Originally Posted by VoxRat
It's almost as if the story had been stitched together from at least two different versions of it.
IN YOUR FACE, David M!!!1!!1!!
...
No, 8-13 is just fuller description of 7 that gives a sequence of events within the summary given in 7. That does make sense.

Only someone expecting to see a wholly accurate historic account would read it your way, you biblical literalist you. Its a story.

Right back at ya m8.

2 separate stories about an even merged into one = still a story.

You were the one insisting it be read as a literal sequence of discrete events and thus self-contradictory, I said it was just a story that made sense if you read it as such.

Still makes you a bibical literalist :)

[SallyAnne]

But afterwards, the pain goes away. The rotten part is gone, and you heal. Eventually you get used to that empty spot, and your overall health and happiness improves.



That's very interesting Jobar, thank you for sharing. Is this your personal feeling? That there is an empty spot in you?

[Notta]

At least you and all the others here who fell away from the faith are happy now. :)

That's a very individual thing, Sally. For some of us, leaving the faiths of our fathers was very painful, and the cause of much strife; conflict within our families, loss of friends, divorces. And that's not even considering the internal struggles.

For others it was a truly liberating experience, and a mostly unmitigated source of happiness and strength.

In the past, I've told some of the ones for whom it's been painful, that it can be like a trip to the dentist. There's a part of you, like a tooth, that is producing dreadful pain, and can't be ignored; the longer you try to, the worse things get. When you finally give in and go have it removed, it may be even more agonizing for a short time. And after the ordeal, there's a hole, an empty place.

But afterwards, the pain goes away. The rotten part is gone, and you heal. Eventually you get used to that empty spot, and your overall health and happiness improves.For me, it was agonizing and extremely scary to lose my faith at first. I was so angry at myself for first allowing doubt to creep in, and then allowing that doubt to make me search for even more answers. It frightened me to think I was alone in this universe; that nothing waited for me after death; and that there wasn't some all-loving sky daddy who would protect me and take care of me and my family. But once I came to the conclusion that absence of evidence is evidence of absence, I realized that since you only have ONE life to live, it better be a good one. And you'd feel better about your life if you could help others have nicer lives, too. I miss the confidence that believing I'd live forever, surrounded by loved ones, brought. And the confidence that every bad or miserable thing that happened was for the greater good. But once you see a child die whose parents prayed and prayed for its survival, only to be told to be happy because God wanted that child more than the parents did, you have to look at this belief with new eyes. I don't miss my religion; but I miss the assurance that at least I would be reunited with anyone I had ever loved and lost to death. I also miss thinking that Santa was real, but I got over that, too.

[Notta]

I've never been a regular church-goer ever in my life so when I hear of stuff like this I wonder if it could even be true...

I think the longest time I've ever spent in a church was on a 12 week Alpha course when I got baptised. I just don't feel drawn to attend church at all. And I might have been to maybe 4 or 5 sunday services over my entire life.

Am I supposed to feel guilty about that?:dunno::(

Tough luck because I don't. :p How on earth did you end up becoming a christian without a strong connection to a church? I ask this because I never even considered NOT going to church every single Sunday. We found a church to visit on vacations; I got perfect attendance pins from age 5 - 18. I went to church & Sunday School until I became a Sunday School teacher and then leader. I sang in the choirs; I ran the Vacation Bible School. I was the president of the youth group. I did it all, and did it gladly. Church dinners, Ladies' Aid, funeral dinners, fund-raisers, Christmas caroling, visiting shut-ins, whatever the church was involved in, I did it. I was baptized as an infant and had all 3 of my children baptized. I was confirmed in a church, married in one, and went to every family member's funeral in one. How do you manage to learn about your faith and practice it without the fellowship of a church??

[SallyAnne]

I've never been a regular church-goer ever in my life so when I hear of stuff like this I wonder if it could even be true...

I think the longest time I've ever spent in a church was on a 12 week Alpha course when I got baptised. I just don't feel drawn to attend church at all. And I might have been to maybe 4 or 5 sunday services over my entire life.

Am I supposed to feel guilty about that?:dunno::(

Tough luck because I don't. :p How on earth did you end up becoming a christian without a strong connection to a church?



Very simply. God is not confined in a church building. I have never had any strong connection to a church and still don't. I was raised in a secular household and a very unbelieving environment. I wasn't raised in religion or exposed to much religion growing up. Still, God reached me. I became a Christian as an adult after a very full life as an atheist, after living my unbelief to its fullest.

[SallyAnne]

How do you manage to learn about your faith and practice it without the fellowship of a church??


Well, early on it was hard because I didn't come to Christ because of a particular church so I had to read the Bible and pray for understanding. But Christians seemed to appear in my life at strange but very opportune times, so they helped me greatly as well (all outside of a church environment) because I could discuss what I was learning in the Bible with them. And my first Bible was given to me by a Christian I was at University with, she was very kind and took me under her wing and helped me, I still use the bible she gave me to this day, it is very special because it was a gift from her. I also spoke to all kinds of Christians, and also came across some sinister things too.

Practicing my faith doesn't mean religious activity to me. It doesn't compel me to run off to the nearest religious denomination. In fact, when I first became a Christian and was all excited about the revelation of Christ, I did exactly that and ran off to the nearest church bible study. But it was extremely disappointing because all they wanted to do was talk about denominational factions and all I wanted to do was learn about Jesus, what He said, what He did, and why. That's all that interested me, not the sunday BBQ or visiting people, I just wanted to learn but they wanted me to join their religion.

So, it's been a bit disillusioning my Christian life but never because of Jesus Christ, He's the only One who keeps me in it. Happily, I have made Christian friends and have had some wonderful interactions with the Body of Christ so I am thankful.

[JamesBannon]

But afterwards, the pain goes away. The rotten part is gone, and you heal. Eventually you get used to that empty spot, and your overall health and happiness improves.



That's very interesting Jobar, thank you for sharing. Is this your personal feeling? That there is an empty spot in you?
Why would you ask that? Jobar was talking about the empty spot healing, not that it was still there. Personally, I have never had that empty spot, at any rate, not due to a deconversion since it never made that much sense to me, even when I was a boy. However, for others, letting go of that role as a Christian is a painful experience. The same can be said of letting go of any other role, be it husband, wife, career or whatever.

[SallyAnne]

But afterwards, the pain goes away. The rotten part is gone, and you heal. Eventually you get used to that empty spot, and your overall health and happiness improves.



That's very interesting Jobar, thank you for sharing. Is this your personal feeling? That there is an empty spot in you?
Why would you ask that? Jobar was talking about the empty spot healing, not that it was still there.


No, Jobar said: "Eventually you get used to that empty spot."

So from that I take it that it's still there but that Jobar has gotten used to it. I'm asking the question to make sure that I have understood that correctly.

[Norrin Radd]

I miss being part of a church. I know it's not the way it's supposed to be. But it's hard to find a good fit.

I won't be part of a church that restricts women in ministry. That's a personal conviction based on my understanding of Scripture. That rules out a lot of churches.

It does NOT rule out the Assemblies of God. And I do like the fact that they encourage the "gifts of the Spirit." I am *not* comfortable with their dogmatic definitions of Spirit-baptism, tongues as "initial evidence," and Pre-Trib Rapture. Even if I could tolerate all that, their official Holiness-Movement-influenced "Position Papers" are just too legalistic.

Most little "independent" Pentecostal and Charismatic churches are wacky -- Name it and Claim it, and/or Toronto Blessing sort of stuff.

[SallyAnne]

I wish I could actually want to go to church. :(

I don't miss it because I've never had it in my life and it's never appealed to me anyway, the thought of going feels like a chore and I don't think it's supposed to. I remember Josh saying he felt the same way but was forcing himself to go even though he found it boring...I think if you grew up in it and had some great experiences it's probably more appealing.

But most of my sundays, nay, all of them during my atheist days, were reserved for sleeping off my humongous hangover from all the partying the night before, that was my "rest" day. lol.:o

I did have a great time at church as a Christian once though, when I was getting baptised and felt guided to go to that one church and also go on that Alpha Course for 12 weeks, that was fantastic, I really enjoyed that and loved the peeps, they were great....maybe if I could find a church that had real people again that would be cool. I don't like those churches where folk act all cheesy and cling to me and I don't like it when they start harrassing me at home, ringing all the time and pressuring me. I just want to go somewhere and quietly melt into the background or hide behind the curtains, LOL. :D

[SallyAnne]

Toronto Blessing


Remember that Christian friend I told you about that I used to work with in London? (the one who witnessed to me for over 2 years at work, maybe you don't but it doesn't matter). Well, she invited me to her church once who were Christmas Caroling at Harrods. Anyway, her church was the Holy Trinity Brompton and apparently Nicky Gumbell, the pastor there (who also started the Alpha Courses) was well into the Toronto Blessing.

I met him when I was an unbeliever and thought he was a really lovely man. I only just found out recently over at CF that he was into the Toronto Blessing.

But today, I just remembered that my (London) friend came into work once and told us about all this crying and wailing and stuff and I remember feeling all weirded out by it as an unbeliever, and of course I didn't have a clue what she was on about but it must have been something to do with or related to the TB. I wonder if there's anything to it?

What do you think about the TB, Norrin?

[Norrin Radd]

I wish I could actually want to go to church. :(

I don't miss it because I've never had it in my life and it's never appealed to me anyway, the thought of going feels like a chore and I don't think it's supposed to. I remember Josh saying he felt the same way but was forcing himself to go even though he found it boring...I think if you grew up in it and had some great experiences it's probably more appealing.

But most of my sundays, nay, all of them during my atheist days, were reserved for sleeping off my humongous hangover from all the partying the night before, that was my "rest" day. lol.:o


Well, I didn't attend church until I was about 20. First it was a little nondenominational (or maybe interdenominational) campus fellowship at a Penn State "branch campus." Then when I transferred to "main campus," I attended the campus fellowship of the local CMA. That was quite fun. "Contemporary" style worship. That was when I got together with all my Xian friends and recharged my batteries.

Back home, I was disappointed to discover that the "contemporary" worship style was not typical of CMA in general, but was just part of that campus outreach. So then, going to church became sort of a boring chore.

Back then, my town had a Christian coffeehouse. (Coffeehouse ministries were apparently kind of big stuff back in the '70s. Around here, we're often 5 years or so behind the rest of the country, so they flourished into the mid-'80s.) Some of my friends there attended a little Pentecostal church, and after I got "filled with the Spirit," I decided to visit it. It was "contemporary" style worship, *much* like the group at Penn State (except that "officially," CMA is neither Pentecostal nor Charismatic), so I loved it and started attending regularly. I used to attend 2-3 services per week. (I greatly preferred the evening services. Sunday AM was rough. And that was always the "big" service.) It was great fun for a while, but over time, as my beliefs moved in one direction and my church's practice in another, it became a burden.

[Norrin Radd]

...
What do you think about the TB, Norrin?

Oh, I dunno. I guess I'd say I don't look on it with great favor, I have the impression that it gave way too much emphasis to things with way too little Scriptural support.

I can tell you for a fact that in the Wikipedia article, under the "History" heading, the last paragraph is closer to true than the first. We had the "laughing in the Spirit" stuff going on a good 8 or 9 years before Randy Clark popped the cork at TACF in '94; we had the "falling" stuff going on before that. And since we were big into Ken Hagin, many of us had read of similar stuff happening decades ago. And of all things, I'd seen the "shaking" clear back in my CMA days, in what was technically not a Charismatic church; manifestations of the Spirit were not explicitly encouraged, but they were also not DIScouraged, so this girl of Pentecostal background would often sit and shake for a while, then stand up and prophesy. Frankly, her words "seemed" more genuine and penetrating that almost anything I ever heard in a "real" Pentecostal assembly. Anyway, my point is that a lot of the stuff associated with TB did not just pop into existence in 1994.

[David B]

...
What do you think about the TB, Norrin?

Oh, I dunno. I guess I'd say I don't look on it with great favor, I have the impression that it gave way too much emphasis to things with way too little Scriptural support.

I can tell you for a fact that in the Wikipedia article, under the "History" heading, the last paragraph is closer to true than the first. We had the "laughing in the Spirit" stuff going on a good 8 or 9 years before Randy Clark popped the cork at TACF in '94; we had the "falling" stuff going on before that. And since we were big into Ken Hagin, many of us had read of similar stuff happening decades ago. And of all things, I'd seen the "shaking" clear back in my CMA days, in what was technically not a Charismatic church; manifestations of the Spirit were not explicitly encouraged, but they were also not DIScouraged, so this girl of Pentecostal background would often sit and shake for a while, then stand up and prophesy. Frankly, her words "seemed" more genuine and penetrating that almost anything I ever heard in a "real" Pentecostal assembly. Anyway, my point is that a lot of the stuff associated with TB did not just pop into existence in 1994.

My bold.

This is true - the Quakers and the Shakers didn't get their names from nowhere.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakers

The name "Shakers," originally pejorative, was derived from the term "Shaking Quakers" and was applied as a mocking description of their rituals of trembling, shouting, dancing, shaking, singing, and glossolalia (speaking in strange and unknown languages

Glossolalia is an interesting phenomenon.

http://www.skepdic.com/glossol.html

Glossolalics behave in various ways, depending on the social expectations of their community. Some go into convulsions or lose consciousness; others are less dramatic. Some seem to go into a trance; some claim to have amnesia of their speaking in tongues. All believe they are possessed by the Holy Spirit and the gibberish they utter is meaningful. However, only one with faith and the gift of interpretation is capable of figuring out the meaning of the meaningless utterances. Of course, this belief gives the interpreter unchecked leeway in "translating" the meaningless utterances. Nicholas Spanos notes: "Typically, the interpretation supports the central tenets of the religious community" (Spanos, 147).

Uttering gibberish that is interpreted as profound mystical insight by holy men is an ancient practice. In Greece, even the priest of Apollo, god of light, engaged in prophetic babbling. The ancient Israelites did it. So did the Jansenists, the Quakers, the Methodists, and the Shakers.

What Skepdic doesn't say is what it feels like to be on the inside of such experiences, which can be very deep, and tending to confirm the teachings of the group which invokes the experiences.

I came across it in a non Christian setting - and though I felt less of it than most of my companions, feel it I did, and shake I did, and cry out a bit.

It was in the early days of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TM-Sidhi_program

What the wiki link doesn't say is how similar the reactions of the early practitioners of this were to the film I've seen of events at charismatic churches.

Practically identical. Lots of shaking, shouting, talking nonsense words, even swearing. And, of course, bouncing.

While such experiences can feel subjectively very deep, even life changing - when I was initiated into meditation, every muscle in my body seemed to twitch, while at the same time I felt so peaceful, so at home, so...wonderful - what they do not do is actually provide any evidence for the existence of any god, leave alone for the metaphysics of the group which induces such experiences.

In fact, they can be induced by a skilled stage hypnotist. It's such a shame that Derren Brown's Instant Conversion clips have been pulled from Youtube.

David

[Ray Moscow]

I miss being part of a church. I know it's not the way it's supposed to be. But it's hard to find a good fit.

I won't be part of a church that restricts women in ministry. That's a personal conviction based on my understanding of Scripture. That rules out a lot of churches.

It does NOT rule out the Assemblies of God. And I do like the fact that they encourage the "gifts of the Spirit." I am *not* comfortable with their dogmatic definitions of Spirit-baptism, tongues as "initial evidence," and Pre-Trib Rapture. Even if I could tolerate all that, their official Holiness-Movement-influenced "Position Papers" are just too legalistic.

Most little "independent" Pentecostal and Charismatic churches are wacky -- Name it and Claim it, and/or Toronto Blessing sort of stuff.

Good luck on this. Eventually they all came to seem "wacky" to me.

The Anglican churches are official "OK" with women in ordained roles, but in practice women's roles are pretty limited. This is gradually changing -- but as those churches die out numerically. The problem is that church people generally like patriarchy, anti-gay rhetoric, pretended moral and religious certainty, etc., and they'll desert any church that strays from these traditions.

I came to realise that if it made sense, it wouldn't be religion.

[Lanakila]

As a former Baptist I never bought all the "gifts of the spirit" stuff that goes around in Pentecostal circles for much the same reason as David B mentioned. Plus I was just weirded out when things like that happened in my presence. Emotional yes. Evidence of anything, no fucking way. Besides that I was taught and understood that the gifts that are spoken of in the book of Acts (the manifestation gifts) died out when the apostles died. That someone decided that they were for today and built a doctrine on it after the Azuza street revival can be traced historically.

Since I don't believe the Holy Spirit exists to either give gifts or make people holy you can understand why I'm not buying it as an atheist.

[Jobar]

That's very interesting Jobar, thank you for sharing. Is this your personal feeling? That there is an empty spot in you?
Why would you ask that? Jobar was talking about the empty spot healing, not that it was still there.


No, Jobar said: "Eventually you get used to that empty spot."

So from that I take it that it's still there but that Jobar has gotten used to it. I'm asking the question to make sure that I have understood that correctly.

Speaking personally, I've been an atheist for all my adult life, and that 'hole' has long been filled by my studies in physics and philosophy, and by humanism as an ethical paradigm.

If you've lived as a Christian, or as a believer in any religion, and then you lose your faith, you may also lose much or all of your social contacts, your understanding of ethics, indeed your entire worldview. Damn right that can leave a hole, and a huge one! For people whose religion is a major part of their lives, they may have to re-build themselves, practically from the ground up.

I've seen that re-building happening, and I've read autobiographical descriptions of many more. Back in 2004, I first met Patcher, who started the thread Anyone experienced this in deconversion? (http://www.freeratio.org/showthread.php?t=103960). In that and numerous subsequent threads, we walked with her through one of the more painful deconversion experiences I've seen; and in the process I made a dear friend who I've never yet seen. I've been trying to get in touch with her, to invite her to SC.

For a marvelous read, check out Lauri's A Salvation Story (http://www.freeratio.org/showthread.php?t=72552), also at II. (Her screen name is 'christ-on-a-stick'. :D)

For a long time, if someone on one of the boards I frequent says that they have become an atheist, I extend to them my congratulations- and also my sympathies. Deconversion is NOT for wimps!

[VoxRat]

...
If you've lived as a Christian, or as a believer in any religion, and then you lose your faith, you may also lose much or all of your social contacts, your understanding of ethics, indeed your entire worldview. Damn right that can leave a hole, and a huge one! For people whose religion is a major part of their lives, they may have to re-build themselves, practically from the ground up. ...In a way, I feel guilty. No, let me rephrase that. I feel as if I've had it easy, and I'm not sure I would have the strength of character to make that kind of break.

I've run into Young Earth creationists who claim to be sincerely open to any evidence for all the basics of science they refuse to accept. They claim to reject it purely on the basis of evidence and logic, which they claim to be actively seeking. I simply don't believe it; I'm convinced they're lying to themselves and/or to others. I wonder what could force someone into a position like that.

I ask myself: suppose my whole self-image revolved around this creationist identity; the respect of my wife and kids, neighbors, pretty much everyone I know. How easy would it be to just, one day, announce I've decided it's all a scam? Having shed all that stuff before having a life organized around it has made it very easy for me. And though creationists with whom I get into it at all tend to express, well let's just say rather less than respect for me... I don't think the path from where they are to the light of day is an easy one. I'm not at all confident I could make it.

[SallyAnne]

Why would you ask that? Jobar was talking about the empty spot healing, not that it was still there.


No, Jobar said: "Eventually you get used to that empty spot."

So from that I take it that it's still there but that Jobar has gotten used to it. I'm asking the question to make sure that I have understood that correctly.

Speaking personally, I've been an atheist for all my adult life, and that 'hole' has long been filled by my studies in physics and philosophy, and by humanism as an ethical paradigm.

If you've lived as a Christian, or as a believer in any religion, and then you lose your faith, you may also lose much or all of your social contacts, your understanding of ethics, indeed your entire worldview. Damn right that can leave a hole, and a huge one!



Wow, for me, it was the opposite, becoming a Christian filled a hole I didn't know was there. And whilst I lost my entire previous unbelieving worldview and all those ethics, I also lost all the people and social contacts as well, and I haven't quite found my place in the Christian social structure yet, lol...:D

But I actually found the experience of going from unbelief to belief an excrutiating one, because the entire foundation of everything I believed and took for granted (as a secular person) was being shaken and that was terifying because I didn't want to let go.

[Jobar]

...
If you've lived as a Christian, or as a believer in any religion, and then you lose your faith, you may also lose much or all of your social contacts, your understanding of ethics, indeed your entire worldview. Damn right that can leave a hole, and a huge one! For people whose religion is a major part of their lives, they may have to re-build themselves, practically from the ground up. ...In a way, I feel guilty. No, let me rephrase that. I feel as if I've had it easy, and I'm not sure I would have the strength of character to make that kind of break.

I've run into Young Earth creationists who claim to be sincerely open to any evidence for all the basics of science they refuse to accept. They claim to reject it purely on the basis of evidence and logic, which they claim to be actively seeking. I simply don't believe it; I'm convinced they're lying to themselves and/or to others. I wonder what could force someone into a position like that.

I ask myself: suppose my whole self-image revolved around this creationist identity; the respect of my wife and kids, neighbors, pretty much everyone I know. How easy would it be to just, one day, announce I've decided it's all a scam? Having shed all that stuff before having a life organized around it has made it very easy for me. And though creationists with whom I get into it at all tend to express, well let's just say rather less than respect for me... I don't think the path from where they are to the light of day is an easy one. I'm not at all confident I could make it.

No reason to feel guilty; you're one of the lucky ones whose deconversion was easy because the religion you left wasn't the central fact of your life. I don't complain too loudly about my own difficulties, because I was still a teenager when I left faith behind. Although the external part of it was hard, and I had a rough time with family and (former) friends, it was much easier *internally* because I hadn't really dedicated my life to being a believer, as had Patcher and c-o-a-s.

And your point about creationists applies to all believers, to some extent at least. I always try to remember that when I talk to even the most insane-seeming fundie; even if I still think they're stark staring, it helps me keep my patience with them.

[SallyAnne]

Well, I didn't attend church until I was about 20.

No-way!:eek: I always assumed you grew up in the church! Wow, we have more in common than I realised apart from you thought you were a Christian for 20 years and I knew I wasn't. haha. :D


First it was a little nondenominational (or maybe interdenominational) campus fellowship at a Penn State "branch campus." Then when I transferred to "main campus," I attended the campus fellowship of the local CMA. That was quite fun. "Contemporary" style worship. That was when I got together with all my Xian friends and recharged my batteries.


That sounds nice. I was at Uni too but I didn't join the Campus Crusade for Christ, I went to the Uni Humanist Society and watched videos with atheists instead, lol. :D They had cool video nights of documentaries on Jesus, and sometimes evolution, and stuff like that, and then we'd sit and chat over tea and biscuits, twas quite fun but obviously there were some hostile ones who wanted to tear me to pieces.


Back home, I was disappointed to discover that the "contemporary" worship style was not typical of CMA in general, but was just part of that campus outreach. So then, going to church became sort of a boring chore.

Back then, my town had a Christian coffeehouse. (Coffeehouse ministries were apparently kind of big stuff back in the '70s. Around here, we're often 5 years or so behind the rest of the country, so they flourished into the mid-'80s.) Some of my friends there attended a little Pentecostal church, and after I got "filled with the Spirit," I decided to visit it. It was "contemporary" style worship, *much* like the group at Penn State (except that "officially," CMA is neither Pentecostal nor Charismatic), so I loved it and started attending regularly. I used to attend 2-3 services per week. (I greatly preferred the evening services. Sunday AM was rough. And that was always the "big" service.) It was great fun for a while, but over time, as my beliefs moved in one direction and my church's practice in another, it became a burden.


The Christian coffeehouse sounds cool, that sounds like something I'd probably like to join...

[Norrin Radd]

...
Glossolalia is an interesting phenomenon.

http://www.skepdic.com/glossol.html

Glossolalics behave in various ways, depending on the social expectations of their community. Some go into convulsions or lose consciousness; others are less dramatic. Some seem to go into a trance; some claim to have amnesia of their speaking in tongues. All believe they are possessed by the Holy Spirit and the gibberish they utter is meaningful. However, only one with faith and the gift of interpretation is capable of figuring out the meaning of the meaningless utterances. Of course, this belief gives the interpreter unchecked leeway in "translating" the meaningless utterances. Nicholas Spanos notes: "Typically, the interpretation supports the central tenets of the religious community" (Spanos, 147).

Uttering gibberish that is interpreted as profound mystical insight by holy men is an ancient practice. In Greece, even the priest of Apollo, god of light, engaged in prophetic babbling. The ancient Israelites did it. So did the Jansenists, the Quakers, the Methodists, and the Shakers.

I have to wonder if the "Skepdic" folks have ever read any literature from denominations and individual authors who believe in tongues-speaking, or have attended many services. The things they cite are not at all typical of the vast majority of Pentecostal and Charismatic Xian denominations. They would not regard tongues-speaking per se to be an "ecstatic" experience involving some alteration in consciousness. They would not regard "convulsions" as a normal part of the activity. They would not regard the speaker as being "possessed" by the Holy Spirit, if that terminology is considered to be analogous to "possession" involving demonic spirits.

They would generally not expect the tongues-speaking to convey "profound mystical insight." The traditional view from 1 Cor. 14 is that interpreted tongues would be roughly equivalent to "prophecy" in that same context, and would constitute "exhortation, edification, and comfort." The view I hold, along with Gordon Fee, Craig Keener, and (IIRC) Chuck Smith is that the primary function of tongues is always for prayer and praise from man to God, not for delivering "messages" from God to man; we differ from traditional Pentecostalism here, in that traditional Pentecostals believe in two "versions" of tongues -- one for prayer and praise, one for "messages." And I believe all of them (Fee, Keener, and Smith) concur that this is mainly to occur in private. (There is, I think, a considerable difference in scholarship between Fee and Keener on the one hand and Smith on the other. I included Smith mainly because he's a leader of his quasi-denomination, Calvary Chapel, as such is fairly well known, and I happened to have read a book in which he addressed the topic.)

Sorry that's a bit rambling. I went back to add a few comments, and it became choppy as a result.



What Skepdic doesn't say is what it feels like to be on the inside of such experiences, which can be very deep, and tending to confirm the teachings of the group which invokes the experiences.

I came across it in a non Christian setting - and though I felt less of it than most of my companions, feel it I did, and shake I did, and cry out a bit.

I've never personally had any of the more "exotic" experiences such as shaking, laughing, or "drunkenness." I never even "fell under the power" or was "slain in the Spirit" unless the pastor pushed me. I've known quite a few others who HAVE experienced one or more of those things, and the perception seems pretty variable -- sometimes profound, sometimes liberating or exhilarating, more commonly just sort of restful, or, for lack of a better word, "fun."

When I pray in tongues, there is usually not any particularly intense emotion involved, though on a few occasions I have felt heavily "burdened" in praying for someone.


It was in the early days of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TM-Sidhi_program

What the wiki link doesn't say is how similar the reactions of the early practitioners of this were to the film I've seen of events at charismatic churches.

Practically identical. Lots of shaking, shouting, talking nonsense words, even swearing. And, of course, bouncing.

You've seen the wrong charismatic churches. I've been to hundreds of services in around a dozen or more individual churches representing almost as many denominations (and "non-denominations"). I've never heard swearing in a service. (Some of us do use plenty of profanity, but not in the context of a church service, supposedly "by the Spirit.") Shaking and bouncing (and "pogo-sticking" -- bouncing on one foot) occurred relatively rarely, mainly in special "revival" meetings. When those things did occur, I'm not aware of any case where they were directly linked to tongues-speaking.



While such experiences can feel subjectively very deep, even life changing - when I was initiated into meditation, every muscle in my body seemed to twitch, while at the same time I felt so peaceful, so at home, so...wonderful - what they do not do is actually provide any evidence for the existence of any god, leave alone for the metaphysics of the group which induces such experiences.

In fact, they can be induced by a skilled stage hypnotist. It's such a shame that Derren Brown's Instant Conversion clips have been pulled from Youtube.

David

Hmm. "Induced." I don't go through any sort of self-hypnotic routine in order to pray in tongues, I just "do" it. In my experience, the same is true of others who pray in tongues. I can't speak for the more exotic things, though.

[SallyAnne]

First it was a little nondenominational (or maybe interdenominational) campus fellowship at a Penn State "branch campus." Then when I transferred to "main campus," I attended the campus fellowship of the local CMA.


Was this a Christian campus not secular?

[SallyAnne]

Deconversion is NOT for wimps!


Neither was conversion for me, it was excruciating. I think ex-Christians think the rest of us who were real atheists prior to conversion (those of us who had no religious upbringing and weren't even nominal) just waltz on into belief with ease, that wasn't true in my case. My entire worldview came crashing down, piece by piece, I thought I was going to die because I had nothing to live for.

I didn't have anyone to turn to when I came to believe and my family thought I was nuts and I had to keep a lot of things to myself. It was quite hurtful but I couldn't deny what I believed so they just had to lump it. Thank God He sent some Christians my way so I wasn't totally alone...

[SallyAnne]

...
What do you think about the TB, Norrin?

Oh, I dunno. I guess I'd say I don't look on it with great favor, I have the impression that it gave way too much emphasis to things with way too little Scriptural support.

I can tell you for a fact that in the Wikipedia article, under the "History" heading, the last paragraph is closer to true than the first. We had the "laughing in the Spirit" stuff going on a good 8 or 9 years before Randy Clark popped the cork at TACF in '94; we had the "falling" stuff going on before that. And since we were big into Ken Hagin, many of us had read of similar stuff happening decades ago. And of all things, I'd seen the "shaking" clear back in my CMA days, in what was technically not a Charismatic church; manifestations of the Spirit were not explicitly encouraged, but they were also not DIScouraged, so this girl of Pentecostal background would often sit and shake for a while, then stand up and prophesy. Frankly, her words "seemed" more genuine and penetrating that almost anything I ever heard in a "real" Pentecostal assembly. Anyway, my point is that a lot of the stuff associated with TB did not just pop into existence in 1994.


Ok, thanks.

[Norrin Radd]

First it was a little nondenominational (or maybe interdenominational) campus fellowship at a Penn State "branch campus." Then when I transferred to "main campus," I attended the campus fellowship of the local CMA.


Was this a Christian campus not secular?

Not sure I exactly understand the question, so per my usual practice, I will make up a question of my choice in my head and answer that. If it turns out to be your question in another form, great.

I attended Pennsylvania State University, commonly known as "Penn State" or PSU (and not to be confused with the University of Pennsylvania, commonly known as "Penn" or "U Penn."). It is a secular university. It is a so-called "state" school, as it receives funding from the state (or more technically in PA, "Commonwealth"); generally state schools are more affordable.

Penn State has "branch campuses" all over the state. At them, one can get some 2-year "Associate Degrees," or more commonly just get the first two years of a 4-year baccalaureate program. One then moves on to the so-called "main" campus -- University Park, at State College, PA -- for the remainder. (The Associate programs can also lead to Bachelor's degrees, but often they are completed at the Harrisburg campus or -- IIRC -- the Erie campus.)

I attended the Beaver campus. The Xian fellowship group was allowed to meet in a classroom. It was headed by three guys -- a Methodist, a Presby, and (I think) a Church of Christ guy (that last one also being a member of the campus staff, in a different capacity).

At main campus, there were various different Xian fellowships. Also Krishnas, wiccas, and assorted other stuff. I assume most were allowed use campus facilities. I joined "ACF" (Alliance Christian Fellowship) because my then-girlfriend and her roommie were both CMA (Christian and Missionary Alliance) folks and naturally gravitated there. ACF was the campus outreach of the State College CMA church. We met in an auditorium on Sunday AM, and in a lecture room on Wed. evening. Our fellowship occasionally sort of "cross-pollinated" with Chi-Alpha, which is the college ministry of the AG.

I did attend a Christian college for... I think it was one class, one summer. I needed a "humanities" elective, so I enrolled at Geneva College, less than 10 miles away, then xferred the credits to PSU.

[SallyAnne]

Not sure I exactly understand the question, so per my usual practice, I will make up a question of my choice in my head and answer that.


:D:rolling::p;):D

[SallyAnne]

Not sure I exactly understand the question, so per my usual practice, I will make up a question of my choice in my head and answer that. If it turns out to be your question in another form, great.

I attended Pennsylvania State University, commonly known as "Penn State" or PSU (and not to be confused with the University of Pennsylvania, commonly known as "Penn" or "U Penn."). It is a secular university. It is a so-called "state" school, as it receives funding from the state (or more technically in PA, "Commonwealth"); generally state schools are more affordable.

Penn State has "branch campuses" all over the state. At them, one can get some 2-year "Associate Degrees," or more commonly just get the first two years of a 4-year baccalaureate program. One then moves on to the so-called "main" campus -- University Park, at State College, PA -- for the remainder. (The Associate programs can also lead to Bachelor's degrees, but often they are completed at the Harrisburg campus or -- IIRC -- the Erie campus.)

I attended the Beaver campus. The Xian fellowship group was allowed to meet in a classroom. It was headed by three guys -- a Methodist, a Presby, and (I think) a Church of Christ guy (that last one also being a member of the campus staff, in a different capacity).

At main campus, there were various different Xian fellowships. Also Krishnas, wiccas, and assorted other stuff. I assume most were allowed use campus facilities. I joined "ACF" (Alliance Christian Fellowship) because my then-girlfriend and her roommie were both CMA (Christian and Missionary Alliance) folks and naturally gravitated there. ACF was the campus outreach of the State College CMA church. We met in an auditorium on Sunday AM, and in a lecture room on Wed. evening. Our fellowship occasionally sort of "cross-pollinated" with Chi-Alpha, which is the college ministry of the AG.

I did attend a Christian college for... I think it was one class, one summer. I needed a "humanities" elective, so I enrolled at Geneva College, less than 10 miles away, then xferred the credits to PSU.




OK, I get it now, cool. Sorry, I just wanted to clarify because I remember when we used to talk to "the-troll-who-must-not-be-named" from "you-know-where" who was taking Theology. And I was assuming he was at a secular University but then he said he was at a Christian College or something...can't remember exact details...I just assumed it was secular but it wasn't...

[SallyAnne]

It does NOT rule out the Assemblies of God.


I think Izzy goes to AOG. Actually, she'd probably like it here....

[Norrin Radd]

It does NOT rule out the Assemblies of God.


I think Izzy goes to AOG. Actually, she'd probably like it here....

Yes, she goes to an AG. That is something that puzzles me. She's a left-coaster, and her AG seems to be a lot "looser" than some elsewhere. IIRC, she seemed a bit surprised when I pointed her to some of the "official" AG positions on things. I wondered how her church is allowed to remain part of the AG.

I also wonder how Fee retains his AG credentials. He has explicitly disputed in writing at least two of the AG's 16 "Fundamental Truths," including one of 4 "Cardinal Doctrines," has done the same with at least one other Fundamental Truth (which also happens to be a Cardinal Doctrine) on a teaching tape, and in some of his written remarks relative to Col. 2 has seemed to be taking a mild swipe at some AG "holiness" teachings.

[SallyAnne]

They would generally not expect the tongues-speaking to convey "profound mystical insight." The traditional view from 1 Cor. 14 is that interpreted tongues would be roughly equivalent to "prophecy" in that same context, and would constitute "exhortation, edification, and comfort."


Yes! The most convincing modern experience I've ever heard of was a woman on an Alpha Course who started talking to the lady next to her in her native tongue, I think it was Russian. That sounded like the real deal to me, she had no prior ability to speak that language and the one who was being spoken to said that she was being told in her native language that God loved her.

[SallyAnne]

It does NOT rule out the Assemblies of God.


I think Izzy goes to AOG. Actually, she'd probably like it here....

Yes, she goes to an AG. That is something that puzzles me. She's a left-coaster, and her AG seems to be a lot "looser" than some elsewhere. IIRC, she seemed a bit surprised when I pointed her to some of the "official" AG positions on things. I wondered how her church is allowed to remain part of the AG.



I have no idea, but it must be a pretty interesting church because Izzy's beliefs are quite eclectic, it sounds like an emergent style church. But I think she was really starting to lean towards fundamentalism recently on CF...from what I could gather anyway but she doesn't like the word "militant" and thinks things should be loosened towards non-essential doctrine....

Which I didn't have a clue what she was on about...

[SallyAnne]

Hmm. "Induced." I don't go through any sort of self-hypnotic routine in order to pray in tongues, I just "do" it. In my experience, the same is true of others who pray in tongues. I can't speak for the more exotic things, though.


I've never spoken in tongues. I've heard some pretty weird ones though.

[SallyAnne]

The view I hold, along with Gordon Fee, Craig Keener, and (IIRC) Chuck Smith is that the primary function of tongues is always for prayer and praise from man to God, not for delivering "messages" from God to man


Oh. Well that just blows the Russian tongue I heard about out of the water then, lol.:D

[Ada]

I miss being part of a church. I know it's not the way it's supposed to be. But it's hard to find a good fit.

I won't be part of a church that restricts women in ministry. That's a personal conviction based on my understanding of Scripture. That rules out a lot of churches.
How about trying UU church? There are women/gay/humanist ministers there. It is creed-less and you can make your own creed. I find UU 7 Principles interesting and agreeable.
Some people find UU churches not touching them emotionally enough. I prefer to understand before I start feeling.

For people who prefer to feel an issue and first and understand it later Unity Church (completely different from Unitarian Universalists/UU) might be a better option.

:-) Ada

[sohy]

While it's true that UU churches allow one to write their own creed, UUs also pride themselves on being a liberal religion. It's one of the first things mentioned in their principles. That's probably why so many humanists, atheists, secular Jews, etc feel comfortable in that environment. The posters here don't seem like liberal Xians to me, although I think Lisa's Xianity could be considered a mix of liberal and conservative principles.

The reason I am hoping to join a UU church if I ever move close to one is I would like to be part of an organization that does works of charity in the local community, and I have never met a UU that I didn't like. At least not so far. :D

Ada, are you involved with a UU church in Georgia? I have several friends that are members of the one in Roswell and I know at least one that is very involved with the one in Druid Hills.

[David M]

The posters here don't seem like liberal Xians to me, although I think Lisa's Xianity could be considered a mix of liberal and conservative principles.

I'm a liberal christian, I just don't post about it, the atheists here are scary :evil:

Just joking, I believe the religion is personal and everyone must find their own understanding in their own way. I also accept that my belief can be classified as irrational and I may be completely wrong.

[Lisa0315]

The posters here don't seem like liberal Xians to me, although I think Lisa's Xianity could be considered a mix of liberal and conservative principles.

I'm a liberal christian, I just don't post about it, the atheists here are scary :evil:

Just joking, I believe the religion is personal and everyone must find their own understanding in their own way. I also accept that my belief can be classified as irrational and I may be completely wrong.

You are one of the most supportive atheists I have ever encountered. You do not get my back up ever.

Lisa

[VoxRat]

But then, he's not an atheist.

[Lisa0315]

But then, he's not an atheist.

Did I miss something? I thought he was just kidding.

Lisa

[4321lynx]

The posters here don't seem like liberal Xians to me, although I think Lisa's Xianity could be considered a mix of liberal and conservative principles.

I'm a liberal christian, I just don't post about it, the atheists here are scary :evil:

Just joking, I believe the religion is personal and everyone must find their own understanding in their own way. I also accept that my belief can be classified as irrational and I may be completely wrong.

You are one of the most supportive atheists I have ever encountered. You do not get my back up ever.

Lisa

You're just trying to make me jealous, youknow you like me more than him -- I'm so much nicer...:drinking::drunk::flowers::hug::evil:

[Lisa0315]

I'm a liberal christian, I just don't post about it, the atheists here are scary :evil:

Just joking, I believe the religion is personal and everyone must find their own understanding in their own way. I also accept that my belief can be classified as irrational and I may be completely wrong.

You are one of the most supportive atheists I have ever encountered. You do not get my back up ever.

Lisa

You're just trying to make me jealous, youknow you like me more than him -- I'm so much nicer...:drinking::drunk::flowers::hug::evil:

*snicker* Well, there are different kinds of support...:evil:

[David B]

You are one of the most supportive atheists I have ever encountered. You do not get my back up ever.

Lisa

You're just trying to make me jealous, youknow you like me more than him -- I'm so much nicer...:drinking::drunk::flowers::hug::evil:

*snicker* Well, there are different kinds of support...:evil:

My hands are available to support your creamy breasts:evil:

David

[Lisa0315]

You're just trying to make me jealous, youknow you like me more than him -- I'm so much nicer...:drinking::drunk::flowers::hug::evil:

*snicker* Well, there are different kinds of support...:evil:

My hands are available to support your creamy breasts:evil:

David

*nods* Much appreciated.

Seriously, one night, my daughter could not find a specific bra...So, I was helping her look, right? She and her fiance were on their way to his parent's house who are ultra-conservative Baptists. I actually allow them to sleep together at my house, so they are pretty open around me. Anyway, I look up and my daughter says, "Ma! Dylan is going to be my bra tonight!" There they were with her in front and him standing behind with his hands lifting up her boobs. (Yes, she had a shirt on, you perv!)

As much fun as I have joking around about stuff, you wouldn't think much would make me blush, right? I did!

Lisa

[David M]

You are one of the most supportive atheists I have ever encountered. You do not get my back up ever.

Lisa

Thank you Lisa.

But then, he's not an atheist.

Did I miss something? I thought he was just kidding.

Lisa

No, I was only kidding about the atheists being scary. I am a liberal christian, but I don't post about it as my take on the bible is very different to most.

[Lisa0315]

But then, he's not an atheist.

Did I miss something? I thought he was just kidding.

Lisa

No, I was only kidding about the atheists being scary. I am a liberal christian, but I don't post about it as my take on the bible is very different to any mainstream.

Would you PM me about your beliefs? :)

Lisa

[David M]

Did I miss something? I thought he was just kidding.

Lisa

No, I was only kidding about the atheists being scary. I am a liberal christian, but I don't post about it as my take on the bible is very different to any mainstream.

Would you PM me about your beliefs? :)

Lisa

Done, just a summary due to space constraints so theres quite a bit I didn't touch on, just the major points.

[SallyAnne]

Anyway, I look up and my daughter says, "Ma! Dylan is going to be my bra tonight!" There they were with her in front and him standing behind with his hands lifting up her boobs. (Yes, she had a shirt on, you perv!)



hahaha! That's hilarious Lisa. :D I dunno if I'd have the courage to do that with my mum around. :o

I went to the cinema once to watch Munich with my brother and Dad, I was sitting in the middle of them, bro on the left, pops on the right. I thought that movie would be the safest thing to watch my bro and pops and next minute there's some sex scene.

I wanted to die. (blush) :o

[sohy]

The posters here don't seem like liberal Xians to me, although I think Lisa's Xianity could be considered a mix of liberal and conservative principles.

I'm a liberal christian, I just don't post about it, the atheists here are scary :evil:

Just joking, I believe the religion is personal and everyone must find their own understanding in their own way. I also accept that my belief can be classified as irrational and I may be completely wrong.


I was hoping we'd have some liberal Xians in here. I consider them comrades. Hope you don't find that too scary. I think some atheists that I've met, are kind of scary too, but I'm not kidding.

We are all irrational David. Some just won't admit it. :D

[Ada]

Ada, are you involved with a UU church in Georgia? I have several friends that are members of the one in Roswell and I know at least one that is very involved with the one in Druid Hills.
I am a member of UUCG in Gwinnett County (NE metro Atlanta Area).

:-) Ada

[sohy]

Ada, are you involved with a UU church in Georgia? I have several friends that are members of the one in Roswell and I know at least one that is very involved with the one in Druid Hills.
I am a member of UUCG in Gwinnett County (NE metro Atlanta Area).

:-) Ada

Oh. Another UU fellowship that's way too far from home. :( Maybe one day someone on our side of Atlanta will be enlightened and motivated enough to start a UU group.

[JamesBannon]

*snicker* Well, there are different kinds of support...:evil:

My hands are available to support your creamy breasts:evil:

David

*nods* Much appreciated.

Seriously, one night, my daughter could not find a specific bra...So, I was helping her look, right? She and her fiance were on their way to his parent's house who are ultra-conservative Baptists. I actually allow them to sleep together at my house, so they are pretty open around me. Anyway, I look up and my daughter says, "Ma! Dylan is going to be my bra tonight!" There they were with her in front and him standing behind with his hands lifting up her boobs. (Yes, she had a shirt on, you perv!)

As much fun as I have joking around about stuff, you wouldn't think much would make me blush, right? I did!

Lisa
If your daughter takes after you, I don't blame him! :evil:

[Lisa0315]

My hands are available to support your creamy breasts:evil:

David

*nods* Much appreciated.

Seriously, one night, my daughter could not find a specific bra...So, I was helping her look, right? She and her fiance were on their way to his parent's house who are ultra-conservative Baptists. I actually allow them to sleep together at my house, so they are pretty open around me. Anyway, I look up and my daughter says, "Ma! Dylan is going to be my bra tonight!" There they were with her in front and him standing behind with his hands lifting up her boobs. (Yes, she had a shirt on, you perv!)

As much fun as I have joking around about stuff, you wouldn't think much would make me blush, right? I did!

Lisa
If your daughter takes after you, I don't blame him! :evil:

She insists that she is smaller than me, but she isn't. I keep trying to get her to buy larger bras, but she refuses. She is at least a cup size bigger.

Lisa