Sharia in Saudi Arabia

[DMB]

This story goes on and on:

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/04/12/saudi.child.marriage/index.html

A Saudi judge has refused for a second time to annul a marriage between an 8-year-old girl and a 47-year-old man...

...The girl's father, according to the attorney, arranged the marriage in order to settle his debts with the man, who is "a close friend" of his. At the time of the initial verdict, the judge required the girl's husband to sign a pledge that he would not have sex with her until she reaches puberty, al-Jutaili told CNN. The judge ruled that when the girl reaches puberty, she will have the right to request a divorce by filing a petition with the court, the lawyer said.

It's hard to imagine what that little girl is going through.

[Notta]

Most likely she'll be raped when she 'reaches puberty', or shortly beforehand. In the meantime, she's a child separated from her entire family and probably treated like a household slave by the other wives.

[JamesBannon]

She's not a child, she's a piece of property. Sold into slavery to pay off her father's "debts".

[lex]

Whats does 39 years difference mean?-as long as they truly love each other.

[Ray Moscow]

A religion of piece

[HinduWoman]

Actually from the judge's viewpoint he is making a huge concession.

Mohammud decreed that a father can marry off a minor girl, even at 8 years without her consent. So if the judge dissolves the marriage then he is going against Muhammad and Sharia --- he would probably be removed from office.

The judge is actually forbidding the husband to have sex with his legal wife -- when Muhammad had done it at 9. He is also giving the wife an option to divorce, which is very liberal considering the culture.

I think the judge did what he can within the sharia framework.

[premjan]

Subsequent to uproar about this case, the Saudis are moving to give protections to minors against these kinds of marriages though it remains to be seen exactly how far they go.

[DMB]

What always gets me is the way they lecture the West on our immorality.

[tjakey]

A religion of piece

Damn! Nice shot!

[Troglodyte]

Actually from the judge's viewpoint he is making a huge concession.

Mohammud decreed that a father can marry off a minor girl, even at 8 years without her consent. So if the judge dissolves the marriage then he is going against Muhammad and Sharia --- he would probably be removed from office.

The judge is actually forbidding the husband to have sex with his legal wife -- when Muhammad had done it at 9. He is also giving the wife an option to divorce, which is very liberal considering the culture.

I think the judge did what he can within the sharia framework.

Nice points.

Aisha was 6 when Muhammad married her. She was 9 when they consumated. And, apparently, soon before he died he'd seen a particular baby/toddler girl and had told the parents that when she came of age he'd marry her... And Salafists, Wahabists and Islamists in general look to him as the perfect man, worthy of emulation - in all ways.

[DMB]

One thing you can say about the Saudis, they are not slow to adopt modern technology.

http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2009/04/23/jamjoom.saudi.divorce.text.cnn

[Troglodyte]

Yup. Where the lady mentions she brought 4 witnesses to court; I'll give an educated guess and say that all four were women. Reason being, in Sharia law, a woman's testimony is worth half that of a man's in court. Therefore it takes two women's testimonies to equal one testimony of a man's in a court case. Yeah, they got rights.

[Octavia]

Common sense has prevailed - the divorce has been granted (http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/04/30/saudi.child/index.html).

[LoneWolf]

Aisha was 6 when Muhammad married her. She was 9 when they consumated.

Does it actually say that in the Quran?! WTF? How could anyone read to that point and not throw the thing in the trash out of disgust? There must be some apologetic that lets them explain it away somehow. Right?

[lex]

Common sense has prevailed - the divorce has been granted (http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/04/30/saudi.child/index.html).

Will she get allahmony?

[premjan]

How about half his assets plus damages for trying to marry a minor?

[Cheetah]

Common sense has prevailed - the divorce has been granted (http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/04/30/saudi.child/index.html).

Will she get allahmony?

No. Her father will have to return the money he got paid for her.

Does it actually say that in the Quran?! WTF? How could anyone read to that point and not throw the thing in the trash out of disgust? There must be some apologetic that lets them explain it away somehow. Right?

The Qur'an says little or nothing about the life of Mohammed. His deeds and sayings are recorded in the hadeeth, many of which are narrated by Aisha herself. Eg..

My mother came to me while I was being swung on a swing between two branches and got me down. My nurse took over and wiped my face with some water and started leading me. When I was at the door she stopped so I could catch my breath. I was brought in while Muhammad was sitting on a bed in our house. My mother made me sit on his lap. The other men and women got up and left. The Prophet consummated his marriage with me in my house when I was nine years old. Neither a camel nor a sheep was slaughtered on behalf of me.”
Tabari IX:131

Its explained away by one or more of the following...

It was normal for men to marry little girls in the past.

Girls reached puberty earlier in 7th century Arabia than they do now.

All the hadeeth are faulty/mistranslated and she was really 12/14/18 or whatever age the explainer feels more comfortable with.

The Old Testament allows it too.

[HinduWoman]

Aisha was 6 when Muhammad married her. She was 9 when they consumated.

Does it actually say that in the Quran?! WTF? How could anyone read to that point and not throw the thing in the trash out of disgust? There must be some apologetic that lets them explain it away somehow. Right?

The age was not a problem until in the modern age. That is when the apologetics came about.

But a no. of hard core theologians look upon such apologetics with disdain, as pandering to the West.
In many Islamic states such marriages are legal based on Muhammad's action.

[LoneWolf]

I understand that younger ages were acceptable back then, but THAT young? We aren’t talking about a sexually mature 14 year old here. Was doing 9 year-olds really considered normal back then?

[premjan]

I think first menses were considered a sign of sexual maturity.

[Mung Dynasty]

I understand that younger ages were acceptable back then, but THAT young? We aren’t talking about a sexually mature 14 year old here. Was doing 9 year-olds really considered normal back then?
Mohammed made it normal. Seriously. As well as that quote from Tabari (who is regarded as unreliable when it's convenient for him to be unreliable) the same is also recorded in Sahih Bukhari (which is solidly part of the core of mainstream Islam).

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that 'Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)." what you know of the Quran (by heart)'

[Mung Dynasty]

I think first menses were considered a sign of sexual maturity.
There is no lower age limit and first menses are not relevant. This has been part of sharia law for centuries. The only stipulation is that the husband is not supposed to have sex with his child wife if her body is too small to bear it. In that case however he is allowed to use her in any other way that suits him.

[Cheetah]

I think first menses were considered a sign of sexual maturity.

There is no evidence that Aisha had reached the onset of menses when Mohammed consummated the marriage, and some circumstantial evidence that she hadn't - she was recorded as still playing with dolls at the time of the marriage being consummated, and dolls are forbidden for girls who have reached puberty.

[DMB]

AFAIK, the Islamic republic of Iran still makes 9 the age of majority for girls, allowing them to be married and also to be treated as adults when it comes to crimes.

I could be wrong, because a lot of people are against this, but I have not been able to find evidence that the law has changed.

[HinduWoman]

Yemen too. They raised the marriage age to 17 this year only but many legislators are trying to void it because it is 'cultural colonisation' by the west. :mad:

[premjan]

They cling to some barbaric practices out of a sense of cultural identity. I suppose organizations like HRW do get on their case though.

[Mung Dynasty]

It's not just cultural identity. It's sharia. Denying the laws on child marriages would mean denying that Mohammed was a good example. This is tantamount to apostasy and therefore verboten.

[premjan]

In Saudi Arabia I think sharia is one of the things that binds the state and keeps it from rising in revolt considering the amount of money that flows through the place. If it were like Nigeria there would be constant attacks upon oil installations. That's sort of what I mean by cultural identity. The moderates probably do it for cultural reasons, the fundamentalists for more existential reasons.