"Love Your Enemies"

[TheBear]

That is one, twisted mind-fuck of a command.







Discuss.....

[Lanakila]

Yeah. If it said avoid your enemies it would make much more sense. I think that is what most of us would do.

[Anne]

I prefer 'know your enemy' and 'keep your friends close and your enemies closer'.

Is there a source for that quote? I'd like to see it in context...

yes: Matthew 5:44

43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor[h] and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies[i] and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.



9. Some late manuscripts enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you



anti pagan propaganda

fuckers.

[Criada]

That is one, twisted mind-fuck of a command.


Discuss.....

May I ask why you think so? Hatred, from a purely psychological point of view, is a very destructive emotion.

[His Noodly Appendage]

I think 'love' is entirely the wrong word.

'empathise, value the welfare of and feel compassion for' is closer to the mark.

If someone killed my family, I would hate them beyond description. But I would oppose the death penalty, because they're human beings, just like my family, and killing them would be just as hideous. My family's lives aren't valuable because they're mine, they're valuable because they're people. If I can't maintain an equal sense of value for all humans, that's my failing.

[Monad]

I thought it was one of the few good things Jesus said. Having enemies is really stupid. There's good or at least potential good in nearly everyone.

[Tenebrae]

As a lapsed christian I tend to think that is one of the tenents worth holding onto.


Why the fuck would I want to hold onto any of that biggoted dogma? Allow me to explain.

I think love is the wrong word.

I forget the reference and dont really care, but the verse said something about blessing those who curse us, and doing good to those who would seek to do us harm"

I recall a situation with a former flatmate. Turned out he was a screaming alcoholic who almost burned down the house one night, I happened to wake up in time to turn off the oven ring that was smoking. My old mans also an alcoholic so I decided to move out not to mention the added danger of the fuckwit flatmate burning the house down in an alcholic stupor. It came time to settle up, and I said to him "look, I'm broke, and have no money, so you will need to take X amount out of my bond as I dont have the money" he decided to get pissy including trying to tell me that I had to move out a day early. I put my foot down and said that I would be moving out on the day I had arranged to

I didnt know how to leave things, so rather than trashing the flat I decided to clean the bathroom and kitchen, which he left in a slovenly state. I heard later from my other flatmate that he was really guilted out over being such a prick.


My point, regardless of a persons religous persuasion, choosing to bless someone who is cursing us, or to not fight back to someone who is being verbally abusive and simply leaving is a way of stopping the cycle of violence, or stopping the cycle of arguements. That doesnt mean that a person has to stay in an abusive relationship and keep getting smacked around though mind you.

Shit, I hope gthat makes sense

[LoneWolf]

It sort of puts a wrinkle in the ol' job description.

Regards,

LoneWolf, Chief Warrant Officer, US Army

;)

[LoneWolf]

If someone killed my family, I would hate them beyond description. But I would oppose the death penalty, because they're human beings, just like my family, and killing them would be just as hideous. My family's lives aren't valuable because they're mine, they're valuable because they're people. If I can't maintain an equal sense of value for all humans, that's my failing.

Ah, but value is subjective. While you may find value in all huamn life, my guess is you value the life of your family more than the life of strangers, let alone strangers who killed your family.

I too am against the death penalty. But it is because I do not believe it is the government’s place to impose such a penalty nor do I trust their judgment in doing so. I do believe there are people who deserve to die, I just don’t think the government should be doing it.

If someone killed my family I also would not want the government to execute them. However, if I got to the killer before the government I would not hesitate in killing them myself (assuming I had no other family to take care of). I would then turn myself over to the police. It may not be logical. But I know myself well enough to know that if someone slaughtered my family logic would take a backseat to raw emotion. There isn’t much that could do that to me, but this is one of those things that could. As I said, value is subjective and someone killing my family would result in their value, in my eyes, plummiting to nil.

[Eudaimonist]

That is one, twisted mind-fuck of a command.

It is or it isn't depending on how you understand the word "love".

I would prefer that the Nazis had loved the Jews rather than hate them, because hate sent them into the gas chambers.

I think that one should love one's enemies in the sense that one sees them as misguided human beings and one treats them as human beings instead of as animals. This doesn't mean pacifism, but it may mean treating prisoners well and helping to set a defeated aggressive nation on a better path.

I have no idea if this was what the authors of the Gospels really meant.


eudaimonia,

Mark

[His Noodly Appendage]

LW: Of course I'd want to rip their eyeballs out with a rusty fork, but I hope that I'd be prevented from doing so - for I hold that doing so would be just as wrong as the crime that prompted it.

[Ray Moscow]

"Do not resist an evil person" is about as stupid as anything ever said.

It's a Jesus "fail".

[Anne]

That is one, twisted mind-fuck of a command.

It is or it isn't depending on how you understand the word "love".

I would prefer that the Nazis had loved the Jews rather than hate them, because hate sent them into the gas chambers.

I think that one should love one's enemies in the sense that one sees them as misguided human beings and one treats them as human beings instead of as animals. This doesn't mean pacifism, but it may mean treating prisoners well and helping to set a defeated aggressive nation on a better path.

I have no idea if this was what the authors of the Gospels really meant.


eudaimonia,

Mark

If this is what was meant, then it should have been phrased more like 'be kind to the losers'.

It's not. It really is 'love those who hate you'.

It's that one step farther the religion was aiming for.

[DMB]

The British House of Commons is different from many legislative chambers in being arranged with rows of benches facing one another, with the Government on one side and the Opposition facing them (far enough apart to discourage sword fighting). The Ministers and Shadow Ministers sit on the front benches.

I can't remember which front-bench politician it was who explained that the guys across the aisle weren't the enemy: they were merely the other side. The enemy were those sitting behind him.

[Worldtraveller]

I always saw that as being an obtuse way of saying don't hold a grudge, or at least alluding to forgiving those who have wronged you. It's worded in a way that's kinda stupid, but that's the bible for ya.

I don't tend to agree that hatred is inherently a destructive emotion, any more than fear is. It can be very useful in a short term way. There is a reason we evolved with most of these emotions, they all have their uses.

[Garrett]

It sort of puts a wrinkle in the ol' job description.

Regards,

LoneWolf, Chief Warrant Officer, US Army

;)
I think that would be a good thing.

[Lisa0315]

As a lapsed christian I tend to think that is one of the tenents worth holding onto.


Why the fuck would I want to hold onto any of that biggoted dogma? Allow me to explain.

I think love is the wrong word.

I forget the reference and dont really care, but the verse said something about blessing those who curse us, and doing good to those who would seek to do us harm"

I recall a situation with a former flatmate. Turned out he was a screaming alcoholic who almost burned down the house one night, I happened to wake up in time to turn off the oven ring that was smoking. My old mans also an alcoholic so I decided to move out not to mention the added danger of the fuckwit flatmate burning the house down in an alcholic stupor. It came time to settle up, and I said to him "look, I'm broke, and have no money, so you will need to take X amount out of my bond as I dont have the money" he decided to get pissy including trying to tell me that I had to move out a day early. I put my foot down and said that I would be moving out on the day I had arranged to

I didnt know how to leave things, so rather than trashing the flat I decided to clean the bathroom and kitchen, which he left in a slovenly state. I heard later from my other flatmate that he was really guilted out over being such a prick.


My point, regardless of a persons religous persuasion, choosing to bless someone who is cursing us, or to not fight back to someone who is being verbally abusive and simply leaving is a way of stopping the cycle of violence, or stopping the cycle of arguements. That doesnt mean that a person has to stay in an abusive relationship and keep getting smacked around though mind you.

Shit, I hope gthat makes sense

It makes beautiful sense.

Loving your enemies is not about being a patsy. It is about giving a gift of love to someone who does not deserve it. Similar to what God has done for us.

Lisa

[Notta]

Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer.

Sun-tzu - Chinese general & military strategist (~400 BC)

I think it works much better than "love thine enemy". Not everyone responds to love nor is looking for it. Some are driven by hate and envy, and showing love and peace in return ends up in an early trip to 'paradise'.

[frazier]

"Friends come and friends go, but enemies accumulate." - Unknown (to me)

I think that giving up the grudge is very useful, in the long run, in many situations. Not all, of course.

Everyone has a good side and a bad side. I find that if I address my words and actions to the "good side" of someone in a conflict, it has a better chance of a favorable resolution. Even if they're not showing me their good side, I'll start by assuming it's there, somewhere. No, it doesn't always work. Such is life.

[reddhedd]

It is about giving a gift of love to someone who does not deserve it.

Lisa
Bullshit. A child is molested, a woman raped, a man tortured...the victims of these and other hateful actions should NOT be told to love the one who hurt them. There can certainly be a release of hate, a letting go of the desire for revenge--this is often the healthier course for the hurt one. But to suggest that the injured party "ought" to give his/her love to predatory scum is a mind fuck indeed.

[BWE]

It is about giving a gift of love to someone who does not deserve it.

Lisa
Bullshit. A child is molested, a woman raped, a man tortured...the victims of these and other hateful actions should NOT be told to love the one who hurt them. There can certainly be a release of hate, a letting go of the desire for revenge--this is often the healthier course for the hurt one. But to suggest that the injured party "ought" to give his/her love to predatory scum is a mind fuck indeed.

I think compassion is a better word. And in no way am I suggesting compassion should equal freedom from a lifetime of incarceration. :p

[Lisa0315]

It is about giving a gift of love to someone who does not deserve it.

Lisa
Bullshit. A child is molested, a woman raped, a man tortured...the victims of these and other hateful actions should NOT be told to love the one who hurt them. There can certainly be a release of hate, a letting go of the desire for revenge--this is often the healthier course for the hurt one. But to suggest that the injured party "ought" to give his/her love to predatory scum is a mind fuck indeed.

Love, in this case, would be to forgive, not pardon, but forgive.

There was a book awhile ago...I will not debate if the Columbine girl actually was asked to deny Christ or not, that is not the point I want to make...

But, the parents of this girl stated that they had forgiven their daughter's murderers. They said that if the boys had lived, they would have prosecuted to the full extent of the law. They explained the difference between forgiveness and pardon.

To forgive someone does not require any effort on the part of the person who has wronged you. It also does not benefit them in any way. Instead, it is a release of the hatred and anger you feel towards that person and the refusal to allow their actions to have any control over you.

To pardon someone is to act towards them as if no crime towards you has been committed.

That difference, that explanation, changed my life. Whether that whole book is one big lie or not, it does not matter, that part was wisdom and it is what is meant by loving one's enemies.

There is a bit of euphemism in what Christ says about love and hate. So many have said, "Jesus taught people to hate their parents." No, no, no. It is an expression, if that is the right word, it is a pointed statement about how to love God. One must love God to the point that all other love seems like hate in comparison.

Does that make sense?

Lisa

[DMB]

It is about giving a gift of love to someone who does not deserve it.

Lisa
Bullshit. A child is molested, a woman raped, a man tortured...the victims of these and other hateful actions should NOT be told to love the one who hurt them. There can certainly be a release of hate, a letting go of the desire for revenge--this is often the healthier course for the hurt one. But to suggest that the injured party "ought" to give his/her love to predatory scum is a mind fuck indeed.

Love, in this case, would be to forgive, not pardon, but forgive.

There was a book awhile ago...I will not debate if the Columbine girl actually was asked to deny Christ or not, that is not the point I want to make...

But, the parents of this girl stated that they had forgiven their daughter's murderers. They said that if the boys had lived, they would have prosecuted to the full extent of the law. They explained the difference between forgiveness and pardon.

To forgive someone does not require any effort on the part of the person who has wronged you. It also does not benefit them in any way. Instead, it is a release of the hatred and anger you feel towards that person and the refusal to allow their actions to have any control over you.

To pardon someone is to act towards them as if no crime towards you has been committed.

That difference, that explanation, changed my life. Whether that whole book is one big lie or not, it does not matter, that part was wisdom and it is what is meant by loving one's enemies.

There is a bit of euphemism in what Christ says about love and hate. So many have said, "Jesus taught people to hate their parents." No, no, no. It is an expression, if that is the right word, it is a pointed statement about how to love God. One must love God to the point that all other love seems like hate in comparison.

Does that make sense?

Lisa

I think making a distinction between "forgive" and "pardon" is unjustified hair-splitting. They are synonyms. It's just that, as so often in English, one has an English origin and one a latinate origin.

[Criada]

It is about giving a gift of love to someone who does not deserve it.

Lisa
Bullshit. A child is molested, a woman raped, a man tortured...the victims of these and other hateful actions should NOT be told to love the one who hurt them. There can certainly be a release of hate, a letting go of the desire for revenge--this is often the healthier course for the hurt one. But to suggest that the injured party "ought" to give his/her love to predatory scum is a mind fuck indeed.

I was molested consistently as a child. And I buried the pain, the shame and the hatred for years. It is only recently that I have been able to face my past. And the only way I could cope with what I felt was through forgiving the people who molested me. Not in some airy-fairy spiritual way, not because I am a Christian, but because as a human being I could not go on without doing so.
I can say today that I 'love' those four people, in that I do not wish harm upon them. That doesn't mean that I have any desire to spend time with them, that I would trust them near my children. It does mean that were they suffering and I in a position to help, I would do so. As a christian I pray for them, and to some extent I can empathise with them.
Jesus didn't tell us to love people in the sense of having fuzzy feelings towards them. He told us to love them in our actions. And that is liberating, because hatred does not do anyone any good.

[Lisa0315]

it is about giving a gift of love to someone who does not deserve it.

lisa
bullshit. A child is molested, a woman raped, a man tortured...the victims of these and other hateful actions should not be told to love the one who hurt them. There can certainly be a release of hate, a letting go of the desire for revenge--this is often the healthier course for the hurt one. But to suggest that the injured party "ought" to give his/her love to predatory scum is a mind fuck indeed.

i was molested consistently as a child. And i buried the pain, the shame and the hatred for years. It is only recently that i have been able to face my past. And the only way i could cope with what i felt was through forgiving the people who molested me. Not in some airy-fairy spiritual way, not because i am a christian, but because as a human being i could not go on without doing so.
I can say today that i 'love' those four people, in that i do not wish harm upon them. That doesn't mean that i have any desire to spend time with them, that i would trust them near my children. It does mean that were they suffering and i in a position to help, i would do so. As a christian i pray for them, and to some extent i can empathise with them.
Jesus didn't tell us to love people in the sense of having fuzzy feelings towards them. He told us to love them in our actions. And that is liberating, because hatred does not do anyone any good.

qft!

[reddhedd]

Lisa,
You are redefining the word "love". Jesus knew and used the word "forgive" so I think if he meant that he would have said it.

Criada, I am glad that you have found a way to process and move beyond the terrible things done to you. There is no way that I will ever love , in any sense of the word, the men who molested and raped me. I have dealt with it, and released my need to see them hurt, but if either of those men were on fire I wouldn't pee on him.


I do not think it helps a survivor to be told that s/he is supposed to give the lovingkindness one feels for one's children, parents and dearest friends to someone who purposely injured him/her. And that if one is xian he/she is at fault for not doing so; I think it is another kind of violation...a mind fuck is a very good term for it, IMO.

[Pendaric]

'Love your enemies. It pisses them off.'

I can see the therapeutic sense in letting go of grudges. I don't really equate that with loving people, but I get the general gist of it.

The far bigger fail for me is the 'turn the other cheek' bit. Sorry, if you take a swing at me you're going to get a pop back in self defence.

This sort of thing shows that for all American presidents might claim to be Christians, they don't actually believe it in practice. Because America wouldn't have an army if they did.

[Lisa0315]

Lisa,
You are redefining the word "love". Jesus knew and used the word "forgive" so I think if he meant that he would have said it.

Criada, I am glad that you have found a way to process and move beyond the terrible things done to you. There is no way that I will ever love , in any sense of the word, the men who molested and raped me. I have dealt with it, and released my need to see them hurt, but if either of those men were on fire I wouldn't pee on him.


I do not think it helps a survivor to be told that s/he is supposed to give the lovingkindness one feels for one's children, parents and dearest friends to someone who purposely injured him/her. And that if one is xian he/she is at fault for not doing so; I think it is another kind of violation...a mind fuck is a very good term for it, IMO.

No, no, no. Let me try saying this another way.


I assure you that Jesus is not asking you to love your molester like you love other people. It is more like, "Love yourself enough to not let these people have power over you any longer".

I was not sexually abused. I was abused. I was filled with rage against these people and I was the one who suffered. Not them, me.

When I let it go, when I forgave, when I "loved" these people, then, I was able to love myself again, or should I say for the first time.

My husband is somewhere between bipolar and schizophrenic. He was abusive to me, not physically, but mentally. I finally left him very recently after 22 years. He hates me now and ended up in the hospital because he allowed that hatred to consume him. He wanted to kill himself and kill me. The hospital contacted me to let me know that there was an immediate threat on my life.

If I allowed it, this man could hold me hostage with guilt and despair and hatred for the rest of my life.

This is what "loving your enemy" is about. It is about releasing yourself from the power that hatred can give to your enemy. It is about not wasting your life with endless revenge scenarios. It is about letting go and moving on.

Lisa

[Pendaric]

Would you defend yourself if attacked Lisa?

But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you.
—Luke 6:27-31. NIV

[Lisa0315]

Would you defend yourself if attacked Lisa?

But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you.
—Luke 6:27-31. NIV

Sure I would defend myself and it would be my first instinct to do so. That does not mean there isn't a better way.

I HAVE done these things by the grace of God. People HAVE stolen from me and I have asked them if they needed more. I have forgiven people who have hit me. I have forgiven people who have lied to me and about me.

I have ALSO flat out refused to give to folks like HowardDean/Rose/Lemonz/WTF-ever. I have hit back. I have been very possessive of MY things.

I am a human being who happens to be a Christian. On a good day, I MIGHT do as instructed. Most days, I probably wouldn't.

Lisa

[reddhedd]

This is what "loving your enemy" is about. It is about releasing yourself from the power that hatred can give to your enemy. It is about not wasting your life with endless revenge scenarios. It is about letting go and moving on.

Redefining the phrase, still, IMO.
I do understand the process of releasing the hatred that only really affects the one who hates. I've let go and moved on.

However, this is NOT the same thing as loving my enemy. On some level, you know this, because you "quoted" the phrase.

I'm saying that releasing and loving are two very different actions/processes, and you are trying to equate them. Jesus says LOVE your enemy, and I simply don't find that realistic, kind, or in any way essential to the healing process.
In fact, I truly think that that instruction is detrimental to healing. As a devout JW, I struggled mightily with this very issue; no matter how much therapy, praying or processing I did, I never could 'love' my abuser or rapist. And I felt guilty about it...as if I didn't have enough guilt and negative emotion to deal with already!

I get that you find some sort of deep meaning and satisfaction from trying to live up to that standard, and I applaud that...if it helps you heal, it's fine with me.

But it seems that you feel that "love" and "letting go of hatred" are synonymous. To me, they are apples and tuna...

[Lisa0315]

This is what "loving your enemy" is about. It is about releasing yourself from the power that hatred can give to your enemy. It is about not wasting your life with endless revenge scenarios. It is about letting go and moving on.

Redefining the phrase, still, IMO.
I do understand the process of releasing the hatred that only really affects the one who hates. I've let go and moved on.

However, this is NOT the same thing as loving my enemy. On some level, you know this, because you "quoted" the phrase.

I'm saying that releasing and loving are two very different actions/processes, and you are trying to equate them. Jesus says LOVE your enemy, and I simply don't find that realistic, kind, or in any way essential to the healing process.
In fact, I truly think that that instruction is detrimental to healing. As a devout JW, I struggled mightily with this very issue; no matter how much therapy, praying or processing I did, I never could 'love' my abuser or rapist. And I felt guilty about it...as if I didn't have enough guilt and negative emotion to deal with already!

I get that you find some sort of deep meaning and satisfaction from trying to live up to that standard, and I applaud that...if it helps you heal, it's fine with me.

But it seems that you feel that "love" and "letting go of hatred" are synonymous. To me, they are apples and tuna...

Well, if your example of Scripture was the perverted version of the JW's, no wonder.

Let me ask you something. When Jesus said to hate your mother and father, do you think he meant hate them?

I have a point here, I promise. I am not changing the subject or moving goal posts, okay?

Lisa

[Ray Moscow]

But we're also told, in the same breath, not to even resist an evil person. You raped me? Sure, have my kids, too.

That's just screwed up -- a Jesus FAIL.

It's not the same thing as saying, "Don't seek personal revenge" or "don't be consumed with hate", with which I generally agree.

[Lisa0315]

But we're also told, in the same breath, not to even resist an evil person. You raped me? Sure, have my kids, too.

That's just screwed up -- a Jesus FAIL.

It's not the same thing as saying, "Don't seek personal revenge" or "don't be consumed with hate", with which I generally agree.

Hold on, Ray. Let me finish my point with reddhead first, okay?

Lisa

[Brianna]

Define love. Define Enemies.

Then try to figure out what someone said specifically over 2000 (or how manyever years ago)

I see both sides of the coin here. One can only do what is right for them.
Meanwhile, I am pretty sure I'll do whatever I please

[Eudaimonist]

If this is what was meant, then it should have been phrased more like 'be kind to the losers'.

It's not. It really is 'love those who hate you'.

Which means?

"Be kind to the losers" is one valid application of loving one's enemies, since kindness involves a benevolent regard for people where one might hope that they find happiness one day (albeit after turning over a new leaf if they are evil).

I accept Lisa's distinction between forgiveness and pardon. I think this is an important distinction here.


eudaimonia,

Mark

[Lisa0315]

Define love. Define Enemies.

Then try to figure out what someone said specifically over 2000 (or how manyever years ago)

I see both sides of the coin here. One can only do what is right for them.
Meanwhile, I am pretty sure I'll do whatever I please

That, Brianna, is wisdom. We ARE trying to define love here and how to handle things when someone has hurt you to despair. Perhaps, that is exactly what Jesus was trying to say...Do what you need to do except respond with hatred, cuz, peeps, that shit will kill you on the inside.

Lisa

[Lisa0315]

But we're also told, in the same breath, not to even resist an evil person. You raped me? Sure, have my kids, too.

That's just screwed up -- a Jesus FAIL.

It's not the same thing as saying, "Don't seek personal revenge" or "don't be consumed with hate", with which I generally agree.

Hold on, Ray. Let me finish my point with reddhead first, okay?

Lisa

Actually, it might be awhile, so I don't want to not answer you and then forget to do it later.

I would want to look up the word resist in the original Greek, and I would also want to see how the same word is used in other passages. That is the only way I can answer that.

Will you give me some time on that?

Lisa

[Ray Moscow]

Lisa, there's no need for a word study (and I have the tools for that on my bookshelf, too). It's clear from the context what is meant. It's just morally foolish, that's all.

[Lisa0315]

Lisa, there's no need for a word study (and I have the tools for that on my bookshelf, too). It's clear from the context what is meant. It's just morally foolish, that's all.

I disagree, Ray. Again, is the creature more moral than its creator? I don't think we are.

Lisa

[Barefoot Bree]

Seems to me this is one of those times when atheists take the bible more literally than theists do.

Those words were written down 2000 years ago, and have been through literally countless translations from one language to another. Who knows what connotations and definitions hung on the word originally used for "love" - or if anyone even knows which exact word was used. Each translator used the word in his target language that he felt was most appropriate to capture the essence of the saying as he understood it. Who knows what the original translators into English thought? So we're stuck with this word "love", which may or may not be close to the meaning originally intended.

We're also dealing with a slogan, a short, pithy saying intended to be easily remembered and passed on, but that in all probability has always required a good deal of preaching to fill in the gaps of meaning. But also one that every individual will assign a slightly different meaning to, as we see even here.

I agree with Lisa and others. My interpretation is more along the lines of "think of those who seek to do harm with charity and kindness, in the hopes of reaching their good side and short-circuiting further harm", along with a healthy helping of letting go of anger at past wrongs.

[Ray Moscow]

Lisa, there's no need for a word study (and I have the tools for that on my bookshelf, too). It's clear from the context what is meant. It's just morally foolish, that's all.

I disagree, Ray. Again, is the creature more moral than its creator? I don't think we are.

Lisa

Yes, a "creature" might be more moral than its "creator", but this relationship between humankind and God, or supposing Jesus to be that God, has not been demonstrated anyway. It's merely being asserted, despite all evidence to the contrary.

What's clear is that the average human being is more moral than the God of the Bible, or even Jesus of the gospels for that matter.

[reddhedd]

Well, if your example of Scripture was the perverted version of the JW's, no wonder.

Lisa

I see...YOUR interpretation, the one you favor, is the only correct one. :rolleyes: I have no further wish to discuss things with you.
Enjoy your day.

[reddhedd]

Who knows what the original translators into English thought? So we're stuck with this word "love", which may or may not be close to the meaning originally intended.


Agreed.

[Lisa0315]

Well, if your example of Scripture was the perverted version of the JW's, no wonder.

Lisa

I see...YOUR interpretation, the one you favor, is the only correct one. :rolleyes: I have no further wish to discuss things with you.
Enjoy your day.

Wow! Okie Dokie. :confused:

[BioBeing]

Seems to me this is one of those times when atheists take the bible more literally than theists do.


I agree with the rest of what you wrote, but think this bit is worth expanding on also.

As people who do not have to try to follow the Bible, we surely can do this. Take it literally, and (from time to time) rub a believers face in it. A believer, OTOH, cannot do this. The bible is too full of junk and contradiction to be able to do that to. Which is why we get apologetics and mental gymnastics and threads like this.

[TheBear]

That is one, twisted mind-fuck of a command.


Discuss.....

May I ask why you think so? Hatred, from a purely psychological point of view, is a very destructive emotion.
Who is endorsing hatred? Are you suggesting that if one doesn't love someone, then they necessarily hate them? Is everything so one extreme or the other with you?

[Lisa0315]

That is one, twisted mind-fuck of a command.


Discuss.....

May I ask why you think so? Hatred, from a purely psychological point of view, is a very destructive emotion.
Who is endorsing hatred? Are you suggesting that if one doesn't love someone, then they necessarily hate them? Is everything so one extreme or the other with you?

I think the context was in regards to ones abusers.

Lisa

[TheBear]

May I ask why you think so? Hatred, from a purely psychological point of view, is a very destructive emotion.
Who is endorsing hatred? Are you suggesting that if one doesn't love someone, then they necessarily hate them? Is everything so one extreme or the other with you?

I think the context was in regards to ones abusers.

Lisa
I was pointing out that 'love or hate' is a false dichotomy. I hope that clears things up for you.

[DMB]

I think both the word "forgive" and the word "love" get stretched beyond usefulness in the Christian context and caue a great deal of unhappiness to many Christians who struggle to do the impossible. See this, for example:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/vicar-struggles-to-forgive-the-terrorists-who-killed-her-daughter-468960.html

I think most of us, whatever our life-stance, would agree that a fruitful life demands that one should eventually move on from trauma and that one should not nurture hatred at the risk of being consumed by it. But IMO that's a long way from advocating love or forgiveness.

[reddhedd]

I think most of us, whatever our life-stance, would agree that a fruitful life demands that one should eventually move on from trauma and that one should not nurture hatred at the risk of being consumed by it. But IMO that's a long way from advocating love or forgiveness.

This.^^

[Alex]

I cannot love my neighbours, let alone my enemies. I do like and respect (some) people in my neighbourhood, but expecting me to love them as I do my family and friends is absurd.

I could only hate a personal enemy. I might be persuaded to fight an impersonal foe like the enemies of my country, but not to hate or love them.