Tea Party Organization for July 4th 2009

[Lisa0315]

If anyone is interested, there will be more national tea parties on July 4th. Now is the time to get involved.

http://reteaparty.com/

People are needed to keep state sites updated. I am no sys admin, but I am going to attempt to be the sys admin for North Carolina. There is going to be a march on Washington on July 4th in addition to the state-wide protests.

The protests are not directed against Obama so much as they are against the size of the federal government and the bailouts.

Other things that folks can do is contact their House Reps and Senators weekly asking for reductions in spending and forcing the bailout recipients to be accountable for the money received, and to make THEM pay it back rather than the taxpayers.

Lisa

[Anne]

in related news, a local bank has announced a plan to pay the government back their bailout money.


I'm happy.

[Lisa0315]

in related news, a local bank has announced a plan to pay the government back their bailout money.


I'm happy.

If enough people rise up and shrug off the lethargy that has had this country in its grip since the 1970's, we can effect the change with or without Obama.

I am still confident in him. I believe that the bailouts were a double-edged sword, a damned if we did and a damned if we didn't. However, we the people, need to let our voices be heard to insure that our government doesn't take advantage of this difficult time.

Lisa

[BioBeing]

More astroturf? Are the same lobbyists who got AIG their bailout money funding this tea bagging too?

Bunch of whiney libertarians complaining that we have to pay taxes is bollocks. And saying it is not anti-Obama... yeah, just look at the last one. Think that Hannity and Limbaugh aren't going to get their fat little piggies all over this too?

[VoxRat]

I'm afraid the whole tea-bag meme is inextricably linked to the Hannity/Limbaugh/FauxNews agenda. If you want to register your disapproval, or wariness, about specific government policies or actions, best to find some other way of doing it. Brandishing teabags - whether you intend it or not - sends the message: "I agree with Rush!"

[Lisa0315]

Isn't it better than doing nothing?

Lisa

[BioBeing]

No.

Doing the wrong thing is not necessarily better than doing nothing.

[VoxRat]

Isn't it better than doing nothing?

LisaI guess that's a judgment call. For me: no, endorsing -albeit unwittingly - an even more disastrous agenda than the one represented by the powers that currently be is not better than doing nothing. It's essentially sending the message: "Bring back the Bush years!"

[Lisa0315]

hmm...Well, I do value the opinions here. I was not aware that there was an affiliation between Fox News and these tea parties. I thought they were completely independent and at the grassroots level.

Lisa

[BioBeing]

Despite these attempts to make the "movement" appear organic, the principle organizers of the local events are actually the lobbyist-run think tanks Americans for Prosperity and Freedom Works. The two groups are heavily staffed and well funded, and are providing all the logistical and public relations work necessary for planning coast-to-coast protests:

-- Freedom Works staffers coordinate conference calls among protesters, contacting conservative activists to give them "sign ideas, sample press releases, and a map of events around the country."

-- Freedom Works staffers apparently moved to "take over" the planning of local events in Florida.

-- Freedom Works provides how-to guides for delivering a "clear message" to the public and media.

-- Freedom Works has several domain addresses -- some of them made to look like they were set up by amateurs -- to promote the protests.

-- Americans for Prosperity is writing press releases and planning the events in New Jersey, Arizona, New Hampshire, Missouri, Kansas, and several other states.
http://thinkprogress.org/2009/04/09/lobbyists-planning-teaparties/


If conservative leaders no longer even try to offer serious solutions to national problems, nobody should underestimate their capacity or their will to mobilize angry Americans. Behind the April 15 “tea parties” rallying against President Barack Obama’s economic program—promoted as a new phenomenon by Fox News Channel and right-wing bloggers—stands a phalanx of Republicans whose ideology is all too familiar.

At the apex of the tea party movement, aside from such Fox revolutionaries as Rupert Murdoch, there is a well-funded organization known as FreedomWorks, headed by a former politician named Dick Armey. His past career should be instructive to any starry-eyed citizens who believe that they have at last found the true right-wing revolutionary path.

...

As for FreedomWorks, which has claimed a national membership of some 700,000 conservative activists, its operations have long smelled of Astroturf, or artificial grass roots. Most of the money that funded Armey’s activism in the past was provided by tobacco, pharmaceutical and banking interests—and there is no reason to think that has changed.

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20090415_obamas_cup_of_tea/

[Philosophickle]

The tea parties have been hijacked. This began a long, long time ago in reaction to both democrats and republicans and now it has become a revival movement for the GOP.
No thanks.

[Lisa0315]

I see that. I am disengaging from it. I appreciate the warnings. It is really too bad that it wasn't for real.

Lisa

[Anne]

Do your own research as well.

People here also are a bit liberal.. ;)

[Lisa0315]

Do your own research as well.

People here also are a bit liberal.. ;)

I am.

[Philosophickle]

I see that. I am disengaging from it. I appreciate the warnings. It is really too bad that it wasn't for real.

Lisa

Lisa, do you lean libertarian?

[Anne]

I do.

In Theory. But I think I'm socialist in Practice...

[Ray Moscow]

Is this just an opportunity to tell the GOP to suck our balls for inflicting Dubya and company, and general ruin, upon us?

In that case, I support it in principle, though in practice I'm not sure I want those ravenous bastards anywhere near any tender bits.

[BioBeing]

People here also are a bit liberal.. ;)

You say that like it is a bad thing :p

[BioBeing]

The tea parties have been hijacked. This began a long, long time ago in reaction to both democrats and republicans and now it has become a revival movement for the GOP.
No thanks.

Wasn't Ron Paul into this, and now he is pissed at Newt Gingrich and Rush Limbaugh jumping on his band wagon?

[Anne]

People here also are a bit liberal.. ;)

You say that like it is a bad thing :p

eh, just should not take this place as a medium place to get opinions from.

That's all.

;)

[Lisa0315]

I see that. I am disengaging from it. I appreciate the warnings. It is really too bad that it wasn't for real.

Lisa

Lisa, do you lean libertarian?

Registered Republican who is just too lazy to change my party. If I were to change, it would be to Independent, prolly, but yeah, the Libertarians are attractive to me as well.

Lisa

[miss djax]

fox et al aside, i have a couple of issues with the tea parties.

1. why now? why no righteous indignation whilest bush and co spent into oblivion? that it starts now stinks of partisanship of the worst kind.

2. hello, lower taxes under obama. tea parties smack of racism

3. tell me, what would you give up? since the tea party folks are claiming giant issues with taxes *with nary a nod to the deficit* is it schools you want to get rid of? crime labs? firemen? roads? street signs? community colleges? social security? medicare?

my last point is the same as conservative writer andrew sullivan, who calls the tea party 'fatuous pieces of theater'

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2009/04/left-behind.html

here's the bulk of the text for those who don't want to follow the link ;)

But it seems odd to describe this as anything but a first stab at creating opposition to the Obama administration's spending plans, manned by people who made no serious objections to George W. Bush's. The tea-parties are as post-partisan as Reynolds, one of the most relentlessly partisan bloggers on the web. When you see them holding up effigies of Bush, who was, unlike Obama, supposed to be the fiscal conservative, let me know.

But the substantive critique must remain the primary one. Protesting government spending is meaningless unless you say what you'd cut.

If you favor no bailouts, then say so. If you want to see the banking system collapse, then say so. If you think the recession demands no fiscal stimulus, then say so. If you favor big cuts in Medicare, Medicaid, social security and defense, then say so. I keep waiting for Reynolds to tell us what these protests are for; and he can only spin what they they are against.

All protests against spending that do not tell us how to reduce it are fatuous pieces of theater, not constructive acts of politics. And until the right is able to make a constructive and specific argument about how they intend to reduce spending and debt and borrowing, they deserve to be dismissed as performance artists in a desperate search for coherence in an age that has left them bewilderingly behind.

[BioBeing]

One of the MSNBC commentators (Maddow, IIRC) made the point that the GOP tea baggers were protesting Bush taxes, as Obamas haven't gone into effect yet.

Yeah - it is political theater.

[Worldtraveller]

miss djax, it's amazing how much that resembles creationism, no?


Then again, maybe it's not so amazing.

[miss djax]

One of the MSNBC commentators (Maddow, IIRC) made the point that the GOP tea baggers were protesting Bush taxes, as Obamas haven't gone into effect yet.

Yeah - it is political theater.

under the stimulus plan they have - i'm taking home about 85 bucks extra a month now, for about the last month or so.

[miss djax]

miss djax, it's amazing how much that resembles creationism, no?


Then again, maybe it's not so amazing.

maybe its my lack of caffeine this am - could you help me understand a bit more?

[Worldtraveller]

miss djax, it's amazing how much that resembles creationism, no?


Then again, maybe it's not so amazing.

maybe its my lack of caffeine this am - could you help me understand a bit more?
I keep waiting for Reynolds to tell us what these protests are for; and he can only spin what they they are against.

All protests against spending that do not tell us how to reduce it are fatuous pieces of theater, not constructive acts of politics. And until the right is able to make a constructive and specific argument about how they intend to reduce spending and debt and borrowing, they deserve to be dismissed as performance artists in a desperate search for coherence in an age that has left them bewilderingly behind.
The bolded part in particular. Creationists use the same type of ploy arguing against 'darwinism' or evolution, but never offer a testable hypothesis as a counter.

[miss djax]

gotcha - sorry i should have caught that on the first pass.

i agree.

now off for more coffee ;)

[Lisa0315]

Its just one more platform, I guess. I am a Republican because of the pro-life issue. I realize now that it was nothing more than a platform to get votes. The pubs have done nothing on the issue despite having the power to do so.

This appears to be just one more lie stemmed to get people to hope that they can do something about it and to discredit Obama. I am ashamed that I was caught up in it, but then, I guess I would rather be someone who doesn't think like a politician.

Lisa

[VoxRat]

...
now off for more coffee ;)
How about a nice cuppa tea :)

[Anne]

Its just one more platform, I guess. I am a Republican because of the pro-life issue. I realize now that it was nothing more than a platform to get votes. The pubs have done nothing on the issue despite having the power to do so.

This appears to be just one more lie stemmed to get people to hope that they can do something about it and to discredit Obama. I am ashamed that I was caught up in it, but then, I guess I would rather be someone who doesn't think like a politician.

Lisa

You honey have nothing to be ashamed of.

Unlike a lot of people in ANY party, you are able to accept new information and change your view.

that's admirable.

[Lisa0315]

Its just one more platform, I guess. I am a Republican because of the pro-life issue. I realize now that it was nothing more than a platform to get votes. The pubs have done nothing on the issue despite having the power to do so.

This appears to be just one more lie stemmed to get people to hope that they can do something about it and to discredit Obama. I am ashamed that I was caught up in it, but then, I guess I would rather be someone who doesn't think like a politician.

Lisa

You honey have nothing to be ashamed of.

Unlike a lot of people in ANY party, you are able to accept new information and change your view.

that's admirable.

Ashamed as in disgusted with myself that I got all hopeful.

I would fight to the death for this country. I want the USA to be all that it could be. I just feel so helpless against the fucktards who would rather play political games.

Lisa

[miss djax]

...
now off for more coffee ;)
How about a nice cuppa tea :)

lol touche ;)

[miss djax]

Its just one more platform, I guess. I am a Republican because of the pro-life issue. I realize now that it was nothing more than a platform to get votes. The pubs have done nothing on the issue despite having the power to do so.

This appears to be just one more lie stemmed to get people to hope that they can do something about it and to discredit Obama. I am ashamed that I was caught up in it, but then, I guess I would rather be someone who doesn't think like a politician.

Lisa

You honey have nothing to be ashamed of.

Unlike a lot of people in ANY party, you are able to accept new information and change your view.

that's admirable.

Ashamed as in disgusted with myself that I got all hopeful.

I would fight to the death for this country. I want the USA to be all that it could be. I just feel so helpless against the fucktards who would rather play political games.

Lisa

thats why the internet is so great..with a couple of mouse clicks and time on google, you can find out all kinds of stuff. and use other sites like snopes to verify pieces of it, etc..

there's an excellent documentary that played on hbo last year, i think you can get it on netflix. it was about barry goldwater, done by his granddaughter, cece.

the whole gist was how goldwater's positions were thought of as WAY to extreme for the right wing of the repub party. they were too far fetched to be considered. and, how, over time, those idea's have become standard issue left-wing politics.

its an eye-opener in how the party platforms can shift and adjust mightily, and they do. the trick is to understand what is a good policy/law/etc and what is simply politics. sadly, they are seldom the same.

the documentary is fab, i highly recommend it.

[BioBeing]

Yeah - but that is reduced withholdings from 2009 taxes, right? The taxes people were complaining about on April 15th were set by Bush, is what I meant.

[miss djax]

Yeah - but that is reduced withholdings from 2009 taxes, right? The taxes people were complaining about on April 15th were set by Bush, is what I meant.

specifically yes, they would have to be rallying against taxes by bush. but what they appear to be rallying against is obama, which is part of one of my original quibbles

we're both right ;)

[BioBeing]

Yeah - but that is reduced withholdings from 2009 taxes, right? The taxes people were complaining about on April 15th were set by Bush, is what I meant.

specifically yes, they would have to be rallying against taxes by bush. but what they appear to be rallying against is obama, which is part of one of my original quibbles

we're both right ;)

Well - I agree with that too! The tax issue was just a front.

[Philosophickle]

What I would do to have Goldwater running the Republicrat party right now...

[miss djax]

What I would do to have Goldwater running the Republicrat party right now...

me too. gay marriage would be a 'no duh' proposition and the us would be firmly pro-choice. the budget would probably be closer to being balanced and we wouldn't be in iraq.

[Daynna]

I could never get past the fact that they were calling themselves, "teabaggers."

teabaggers (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Tea-Bag). *giggle*

[sohy]

I could never get past the fact that they were calling themselves, "teabaggers."

teabaggers (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Tea-Bag). *giggle*

I don't think they ever called themselves that. People like Jon Stewart and most of the MSNBC hosts started it and then it grew from there. The tea baggers objected to being called tea baggers. :D

They were a bunch of very poorly informed people. Many of them were older folks who receive social security and medicare, and they were protesting government spending. Oh the irony.

[Troglodyte]

If anyone is interested, there will be more national tea parties on July 4th. Now is the time to get involved.

http://reteaparty.com/

People are needed to keep state sites updated. I am no sys admin, but I am going to attempt to be the sys admin for North Carolina. There is going to be a march on Washington on July 4th in addition to the state-wide protests.

The protests are not directed against Obama so much as they are against the size of the federal government and the bailouts.

Other things that folks can do is contact their House Reps and Senators weekly asking for reductions in spending and forcing the bailout recipients to be accountable for the money received, and to make THEM pay it back rather than the taxpayers.

Lisa

What I find funny about the mainstream media and hardcore left is how they immediately stereotyped, marginalized and generally misunderstood and misrepresented what is going on with the tea parties and those who're supportive of it. It's going right over their heads and if the movement manages to stay cohesive, could well be a force to be pay attention to in 2010 and 2012, against both primary parties.

Furthermore, what I find laughable is that prior to the tax day parties there was discussion amongst many of the groups and preliminary planning to have a series of parties. A one time national tea party was never the be all and end all of this... but it seems that's what the mainstream media, HuffPo and others thought/believe. The turnout on April 15 gave the numerous organizers the confirmation they needed to continue the initial plan they had to make this a serious, continued movement with several rallies.

Moreso of course is the lack of central leadership. While a heirarchy and leadership may occur over time, this was started at a state by state and city by city level with no singular leader or organization. Hopefully the movement will continue to grow as a confederacy of sorts.

The use of the term "teabaggers" and "teabagging" to me says more negatively about those who've started using the term and perpetuating it than those it's meant to insult. Continued use of the term will only serve to solidify and harden the resolve of those supportive of the tea party movement. It's highly possible and probable that the abuse being thrown at those supportive of the tea party movement (and by extension groups such as the 912 organization) will backfire on the primarily hardcore left continuing to use such invectives.

Just as the GOP pretty much went along assuming things over the last 7 years, so too now the hard left and DNC are also assuming things as concerns their projected future and how things will go in this country. Eventually you will see the GOP also seek to marginalize the teaparty supporters as they realize that they cannot "control" them. Both of the primary parties and the hard left fail to understand by choice or general inability what the teaparty supporters truly believe, what they want and how they'll act.

[Lisa0315]

God, I hope so. I hope that the movement goes beyond politics and truly becomes an American protest against big government in general regardless of party affiliation.

Did anyone hear about Texas talking about seccession? :D I need to look that up myself actually.

Lisa

[BioBeing]

Both of the primary parties and the hard left fail to understand by choice or general inability what the teaparty supporters truly believe, what they want and how they'll act.

So you are here to set us straight then, right? What all of the people who attended, supported, promoted these rallies really really want...

[Lisa0315]

http://www.texassecede.com/faq.htm

[Troglodyte]

hmm...Well, I do value the opinions here. I was not aware that there was an affiliation between Fox News and these tea parties. I thought they were completely independent and at the grassroots level.

Lisa

They are. HuffPo, msnbc et al. are doing a smashing job trying to stereotype, mischaracterize and marginalize what is going on. While I'm not on Twitter or Facebook - or Myspace or any of that stuff for that matter - much of the organizing has and apparently still is going on via those formats. There's also messageboards and websites that have been started by some of the organizers.

There is no heirarchy that I'm aware of in this movement other than on an independent, local level. At most there might be the beginnings of state leadership, but only as facilitators. I believe the continued aim is to keep this local, independent and grass-roots, to not make this into an arm of any party or other organization, business, celeb or pundit.

[Troglodyte]

Both of the primary parties and the hard left fail to understand by choice or general inability what the teaparty supporters truly believe, what they want and how they'll act.

So you are here to set us straight then, right? What all of the people who attended, supported, promoted these rallies really really want...

Do your own homework. I'm in the major minority on this board. I pretty much gave up debating long ago on message boards as a lost cause. My contention is what I stated, that there's a heavy dose of assumption and presumption going on, primarily by both major parties, the mainstream media and those who'd consider themselves hardcore liberals ideologically.

[Troglodyte]

God, I hope so. I hope that the movement goes beyond politics and truly becomes an American protest against big government in general regardless of party affiliation.

Did anyone hear about Texas talking about seccession? :D I need to look that up myself actually.

Lisa

Doubt it will happen.

The nation has a way to go before Texas or any other state will actually cede. Besides-which, Perry doesn't seem to have the popular support for it according to one poll I heard about. As it is, I don't think seccession will automatically be beneficial for any state that does it. At the very least, Perry is using it to point out the glaring imbalance between state and federal powers that there currently is, counter to the Constitution. To be fair, the argument has been there since even before the second constitutional convention, but especially over the last 9 years has become even worse.

[Daynna]

I saw them referenced as "teabaggers" in several news stories (not comedy acts). I did assume they chose to be called that. It may strengthen their resolve a bit, but few people under the age of 35 will take them seriously if they embrace it. The slang meaning of the word is too prevalent. :) It's unfortunate.

"Michael Steele, Maryland-based chairman of the Republican National Committee, in an e-mail he titled "Enough is Enough: Send a Tea Bag." Said Steel, "Let "... liberal Democrats know you already pay enough in taxes by sending them a virtual tea bag.""

[Lisa0315]

Both of the primary parties and the hard left fail to understand by choice or general inability what the teaparty supporters truly believe, what they want and how they'll act.

So you are here to set us straight then, right? What all of the people who attended, supported, promoted these rallies really really want...

Why are you being so hostile, Bio? He stated an opinion is all.

[Troglodyte]

I saw them referenced as "teabaggers" in several news stories (not comedy acts). I did assume they chose to be called that. It may strengthen their resolve a bit, but few people under the age of 35 will take them seriously if they embrace it. The slang meaning of the word is too prevalent. :) It's unfortunate.

"Michael Steele, Maryland-based chairman of the Republican National Committee, in an e-mail he titled "Enough is Enough: Send a Tea Bag." Said Steel, "Let "... liberal Democrats know you already pay enough in taxes by sending them a virtual tea bag.""

Steele tried to insert himself - along with many Republican politicians - into one of the rallies last week. He was rebuffed. To my knowledge, there was not a single politician allowed to speak anywhere, though perhaps some minor, local politicians did on a local level - I don't know.

As to who started calling the supporters of the tea parties, teabaggers, I don't know. I was aware of the term long ago, having had the sad misfortune of watching "Pecker" many years ago. I first saw the term being used by liberals in derision of the movement on another message board many weeks prior to April 15. It would not be surprising though if some of the older people who got involved in the movement started calling themselves "teabaggers". Had I not known about the sexual slang term definition, I too probably would have used the term to describe myself. However, with such national attention being drawn to the movement and excessive and juvenile usage of the term by many members in the media and on the left, I suspect that many if not all of the organizers will steer clear of the term.

That said, I cannot help but see a potential similarity between such a usage and how early followers of Christ were called Christians mockingly and derisively. Followers of The Way quickly took the insult as a badge of honor, and it stuck ever since.

[BioBeing]

Both of the primary parties and the hard left fail to understand by choice or general inability what the teaparty supporters truly believe, what they want and how they'll act.

So you are here to set us straight then, right? What all of the people who attended, supported, promoted these rallies really really want...

Why are you being so hostile, Bio? He stated an opinion is all.

Hostile? Me!?

He had a long post in which he said we had it wrong, but didn't say what was correct.

He(?) stated that the "hard left" (a characterization that is not intended to be flattering) either chose to not understand or are too stupid to understand what this tea bagging is all about. I have posted in this thread and the other one what I think it is about - I have tried to find out. I asked him to explain further, so I sure don't think that he can claim that I chose to remain ignorant. I don't mind being called ignorant: it is curable by education. That means, it appears to me, that he is saying that I unable to comprehend something? I am stupid. So that sounds pretty hostile to me.

Given his reply:

Do your own homework. I'm in the major minority on this board. I pretty much gave up debating long ago on message boards as a lost cause. My contention is what I stated, that there's a heavy dose of assumption and presumption going on, primarily by both major parties, the mainstream media and those who'd consider themselves hardcore liberals ideologically.

So either my characterizations of these tea parties has been correct, and I am already educated; or he is too lazy to educate me, in which case he has no excuse for calling me uneducated.

So who is being hostile?



These tea [bag] parties are being hosted and attended for a variety of reasons, I'm sure. I'm sure the libertarians are pissed that their nice little tea parties have been taken over by the likes of Hannity and Limbaugh. Ron Paul said that he hadn't invited Gingrich to attend IIRC. Fox News and the Right wing of the RNC have jumped on these as a fake way to churn up their base. These rallies are (now) about bashing Obama. There is not further message; Troglodyte knows that, and hence his curt (even hostile?) answer to me.

[BioBeing]

That said, I cannot help but see a potential similarity between such a usage and how early followers of Christ were called Christians mockingly and derisively. Followers of The Way quickly took the insult as a badge of honor, and it stuck ever since.

Don't feel too special: the term "Big Bang" started off as a form of derision too.

[Lisa0315]

So you are here to set us straight then, right? What all of the people who attended, supported, promoted these rallies really really want...

Why are you being so hostile, Bio? He stated an opinion is all.

Hostile? Me!?

He had a long post in which he said we had it wrong, but didn't say what was correct.

He(?) stated that the "hard left" (a characterization that is not intended to be flattering) either chose to not understand or are too stupid to understand what this tea bagging is all about. I have posted in this thread and the other one what I think it is about - I have tried to find out. I asked him to explain further, so I sure don't think that he can claim that I chose to remain ignorant. I don't mind being called ignorant: it is curable by education. That means, it appears to me, that he is saying that I unable to comprehend something? I am stupid. So that sounds pretty hostile to me.

Given his reply:

Do your own homework. I'm in the major minority on this board. I pretty much gave up debating long ago on message boards as a lost cause. My contention is what I stated, that there's a heavy dose of assumption and presumption going on, primarily by both major parties, the mainstream media and those who'd consider themselves hardcore liberals ideologically.

So either my characterizations of these tea parties has been correct, and I am already educated; or he is too lazy to educate me, in which case he has no excuse for calling me uneducated.

So who is being hostile?



These tea [bag] parties are being hosted and attended for a variety of reasons, I'm sure. I'm sure the libertarians are pissed that their nice little tea parties have been taken over by the likes of Hannity and Limbaugh. Ron Paul said that he hadn't invited Gingrich to attend IIRC. Fox News and the Right wing of the RNC have jumped on these as a fake way to churn up their base. These rallies are (now) about bashing Obama. There is not further message; Troglodyte knows that, and hence his curt (even hostile?) answer to me.

Sorry, I didn't see that part. I should have kept out of it. :o

[Troglodyte]

[

He had a long post in which he said we had it wrong, but didn't say what was correct. It would take too long for me to explain. Simply put, I spend too much time puttering on the internet, especially on message boards and I have a lot of other things I really should be doing. Thus I said, do your own homework. As I recall, there was at least one website, a "primary" facilitating site, which iirc, did/does have a message board. You could in theory go over there and spend time on their website and discussion boards, asking questions... even emailing them - as I had done. http://taxdayteaparty.com/

He(?) Via my profile, I am a he. That means, it appears to me, that he is saying that I unable to comprehend something? I am stupid. So that sounds pretty hostile to me. Implication and inference don't always coincide. Thus I added an effective "caveat" that some may intentionally be chosing not to understand. The implication therefore is due to ideological stance, not intellectual ability

So either my characterizations of these tea parties has been correct, and I am already educated; or he is too lazy to educate me, in which case he has no excuse for calling me uneducated. See above. To further explaination, I can be a slow typist, efforting to craft posts with as much information as I can muster. That said, to be honest, yes, sometimes I wonder why I even get involved in posts... and quickly lose interest, thus coming off as lazy.




These tea [bag] parties are being hosted and attended for a variety of reasons, I'm sure. I'm sure the libertarians are pissed that their nice little tea parties have been taken over by the likes of Hannity and Limbaugh. Ron Paul said that he hadn't invited Gingrich to attend IIRC. Fox News and the Right wing of the RNC have jumped on these as a fake way to churn up their base. These rallies are (now) about bashing Obama. There is not further message; Troglodyte knows that, and hence his curt (even hostile?) answer to me. From what I read, the parties and movement started in Oregon or Washington and spread quickly from there just prior to and especially immediately after Rick Santelli's rant on cnbc. Only time will tell how the tea parties turn out and how effective they are/become. I don't know how any libertarians per se feel. From what I have gathered, the movement is still somewhat amoebic in its basic complaints and that is due primarly to the fairly local, individualized aspect of it so far. Over time what the movement stands for/against may gel and we'll see less and less of some of the tangental issues that some of the media and liberal organizations cherry picked. As long as and if the movement can coelesce, it will remain viable. If it stays too plastic, it will devolve quickly. As I stated prior, my curt answer was due to a life I live and needs coming before a past-time.

[BioBeing]

Thank you for your reply.

From your link, these "tea parties" were a true grassroots protest of irresponsible fiscal policies and intrusive government.

Is simply untrue. Being organized by lobbyists who got bail-out money for AIG is astroturf, not grassroots.

[Troglodyte]

Thank you for your reply.

From your link, these "tea parties" were a true grassroots protest of irresponsible fiscal policies and intrusive government.

Is simply untrue. Being organized by lobbyists who got bail-out money for AIG is astroturf, not grassroots.

Proof please.

I've heard the term astroturf rather recently being applied as a new invective against the Tea Party Movement by none other than David Axelrod.

[Troglodyte]

Nevermind. Beginning to do my own homework. We shall see what we shall see as I said. If the movement is viable, it will continue. If it does have a truly "grassroots" aspect to it, that will become increasingly apparent. And, as I recall, I do seem to remember hearing one or more organizers mentioning Newt's organization among others prior to the 15th, but noting they were more as facilitators and not as usurpers.

Be that as it may, as I stated, time will tell.

[Troglodyte]

http://houstontps.org/?p=191

[BioBeing]

http://houstontps.org/?p=191

Oh noes - some blog says "no, not true". Blows my theory out of the water then, doesn't it?

[miss djax]

What I find funny about the mainstream media and hardcore left is how they immediately stereotyped, marginalized and generally misunderstood and misrepresented what is going on with the tea parties and those who're supportive of it. It's going right over their heads and if the movement manages to stay cohesive, could well be a force to be pay attention to in 2010 and 2012, against both primary parties.

Furthermore, what I find laughable is that prior to the tax day parties there was discussion amongst many of the groups and preliminary planning to have a series of parties. A one time national tea party was never the be all and end all of this... but it seems that's what the mainstream media, HuffPo and others thought/believe. The turnout on April 15 gave the numerous organizers the confirmation they needed to continue the initial plan they had to make this a serious, continued movement with several rallies.



hardly...the tea parties were used by ron paul during his campaign and then co-opted by dick armey and his freedomwork's organization.

any 'grass roots' piece was subverted long before the tax day rallies.

and again, i ask you..why no rallies whilest bush was in office? to paraphrase conservative journalist andrew sullivan, he 'was supposed to be the fiscal conservative' and wasn't.

protest without plan is sound and fury, signifying nothing. what would the tea baggers give up, then? schools? defense? without a plan, again, this is political theater.

the teabaggers call themselves tea baggers - google yourself and find the pix. they are legion.

[miss djax]

hmm...Well, I do value the opinions here. I was not aware that there was an affiliation between Fox News and these tea parties. I thought they were completely independent and at the grassroots level.

Lisa

They are. HuffPo, msnbc et al. are doing a smashing job trying to stereotype, mischaracterize and marginalize what is going on. While I'm not on Twitter or Facebook - or Myspace or any of that stuff for that matter - much of the organizing has and apparently still is going on via those formats. There's also messageboards and websites that have been started by some of the organizers.

There is no heirarchy that I'm aware of in this movement other than on an independent, local level. At most there might be the beginnings of state leadership, but only as facilitators. I believe the continued aim is to keep this local, independent and grass-roots, to not make this into an arm of any party or other organization, business, celeb or pundit.

then perhaps you should, as you admonished other folks, do your own homework. the post ron paul tea parties are very much a tool of the republican leadership. freedomwork's hand print is all over it and has been well documented.

[miss djax]

God, I hope so. I hope that the movement goes beyond politics and truly becomes an American protest against big government in general regardless of party affiliation.

Did anyone hear about Texas talking about seccession? :D I need to look that up myself actually.

Lisa

Doubt it will happen.

The nation has a way to go before Texas or any other state will actually cede. Besides-which, Perry doesn't seem to have the popular support for it according to one poll I heard about. As it is, I don't think seccession will automatically be beneficial for any state that does it. At the very least, Perry is using it to point out the glaring imbalance between state and federal powers that there currently is, counter to the Constitution. To be fair, the argument has been there since even before the second constitutional convention, but especially over the last 9 years has become even worse.

so the last 9 years takes us firmly into republican leadership territory. care to acknowledge the right's complicity in this?

[dancer_rnb]

What I find funny about the mainstream media and hardcore left is how they immediately stereotyped, marginalized and generally misunderstood and misrepresented what is going on with the tea parties and those who're supportive of it. It's going right over their heads and if the movement manages to stay cohesive, could well be a force to be pay attention to in 2010 and 2012, against both primary parties.

Furthermore, what I find laughable is that prior to the tax day parties there was discussion amongst many of the groups and preliminary planning to have a series of parties. A one time national tea party was never the be all and end all of this... but it seems that's what the mainstream media, HuffPo and others thought/believe. The turnout on April 15 gave the numerous organizers the confirmation they needed to continue the initial plan they had to make this a serious, continued movement with several rallies.



hardly...the tea parties were used by ron paul during his campaign and then co-opted by dick armey and his freedomwork's organization.

any 'grass roots' piece was subverted long before the tax day rallies.

and again, i ask you..why no rallies whilest bush was in office? to paraphrase conservative journalist andrew sullivan, he 'was supposed to be the fiscal conservative' and wasn't.

protest without plan is sound and fury, signifying nothing. what would the tea baggers give up, then? schools? defense? without a plan, again, this is political theater.

the teabaggers call themselves tea baggers - google yourself and find the pix. they are legion.

I remember there being protesters at post office on the 15 th of April since at least 1999.

[miss djax]

but where they tea-bagging in public? :D

j/k

seriously tho, i bet if someone really dug into it, there's been some for of a political protest cribbing some element of the boston tea party for decades. at least!!

[Troglodyte]

http://houstontps.org/?p=191

Oh noes - some blog says "no, not true". Blows my theory out of the water then, doesn't it?

Nope, just that perhaps there's another side to the story - especially when the blogger looks into who's saying what.

[Troglodyte]

so the last 9 years takes us firmly into republican leadership territory. care to acknowledge the right's complicity in this?

Uh, hmmm...

Yes? :hide:

And? The left was complicit too. This is exactly the point. Many people who voted for Bush weren't happy with what he was doing, some of the things he did. So, now that Obama's in office the same people who liked Bush but weren't necessarily completely supportive of some of his actions cannot complain about what's going on now? Sorry. My convictions and opinions, much less my actions are not bound by nor answerable to a political party. Many in the right, the so called neo-conservatives among them, are certainly, arguably just as complicit in the recent history of our government growing so obesely as are the DNC and many organizations and individuals who consider themselves champions of progressivism and hardcore leftist ideologies. :bang: :dunno:

And contrary to a lot of hardcore bloviators, there were no doubt quite a few hard left Democrats and liberals that weren't happy with Clinton all of the time while he was in office, only it didn't get much media coverage due to the love-fest then and/or was ignored by individuals such as Rush, et. al.

Obama ran on hope and change. Only thing is, we're now seeing that a lot of what he's doing is the same old same old. I wasn't supportive of bigger government nine years ago, nor was I supportive of some of Bush's policies that led to big government, especially the bailout v.1 and prior to that the "stimulus" checks.

Frankly, what I see around the corner is basically going to be a sort of rebound wave effect economically of actions taken by Bush in 2007 and 08 and now Obama. Purely blaming Bush can only last so long. Eventually Obama's going to have to take responsibility for actions he's done since taking office and acknowledge his part in this fiasco.

[Troglodyte]

[QUOTE=miss djax;28041]
then perhaps you should, as you admonished other folks, do your own homework. QUOTE]

Hmmm... I do seem to recall somewhere up this page saying just that about/to myself...

Redundancy or flippancy?

[miss djax]

so the last 9 years takes us firmly into republican leadership territory. care to acknowledge the right's complicity in this?

Uh, hmmm...

Yes? :hide:

And? The left was complicit too. This is exactly the point. Many people who voted for Bush weren't happy with what he was doing, some of the things he did. So, now that Obama's in office the same people who liked Bush but weren't necessarily completely supportive of some of his actions cannot complain about what's going on now? Sorry. My convictions and opinions, much less my actions are not bound by nor answerable to a political party. Many in the right, the so called neo-conservatives among them, are certainly, arguably just as complicit in the recent history of our government growing so obesely as are the DNC and many organizations and individuals who consider themselves champions of progressivism and hardcore leftist ideologies. :bang: :dunno:



lol good on ya, trog :) i appreciate you can call the right on their bullshit, too. i'm hardly one for party politics either.

as far as obama's part in the fiasco, that remains to be seen. the fiasco part, i mean. keep in mind the guys been in office, what, 4 months? while we don't share a page out of the ideology handbook i have to give him credit for being the overachiever in chief. does he ever sleep?

[Troglodyte]

as far as obama's part in the fiasco, that remains to be seen. the fiasco part, i mean. keep in mind the guys been in office, what, 4 months? while we don't share a page out of the ideology handbook i have to give him credit for being the overachiever in chief. does he ever sleep?

The fiasco does remain to be seen. I would rather be wrong than to say, "Hey!... the damned writing was on the frikken wall when you were doing this stuff and you still did it anyway?!!!"

Moreso than the economic issues, I'm very unhappy with where I'm seeing him take this nation as pertains to international law and foreign affairs and above all, social issues. But then, I'm very much a social conservative, so it goes without saying almost...

As I stated, I think we'll see the fruits, good or bad about what all is playing out and having been done economically by this time next year - if not by Christmas. And, that doesn't even take into account the potentiality for a new crisis and disaster, either natural or manmade, as in another terrorist attack on our soil again (And I'm of the pessimistic belief we will be attacked on home soil again soon).

[Worldtraveller]

That said, I cannot help but see a potential similarity between such a usage and how early followers of Christ were called Christians mockingly and derisively.
You mean like how many in the conservative movement use terms like 'liberal elite', 'bleeding heart liberal' et. al. in a friendly and non-condenscending manner for the last 20 years?

Mote...beam...eye. :) (Not necessairly you, Trog, but Tu Quoque (sp?) notwithstanding, the conservative side definitely started that war.)

[Troglodyte]

Somehow, I think teabagging and bleeding heart are in two different categories.

[Goodchild]

I'm with Markos Moulitsas on why the Tea Party's are such a disastrous idea for the republicans. Just like many of the supposedly 'grassroots' protests the left sponsored during the last decade the endearing images of these protests are the nuts and conspiracy theorists that they drag out of the woodwork and give valuable airtime to. The nuts are always more interesting and so any actual useful protesting gets drowned out by a cacophony of nuttiness.

Seriously, what do most people think of when they talk about the recent Tea Parties? "Obama is the new Hitler", "Obama not a US citizen", "Socialism bad!", "Don't take my guns!".

Once in awhile you get a Million Man March that actually makes a serious impact. Most often you get wingnuttiness from the left or right.

Aside from that, I want to ask Lisa a question about something she mentioned earlier. Lisa, why are you against "big government"? Gov't in the US is by the people and for the people so why is an enlargement of the government a bad thing? IMO, I'm all for a much larger government than we already possess ... particularly one that provides UHC in a single-payer system.

[Lisa0315]

Bigger government equals more corruption. The whole system is bullshit but I guess it is better than any other place. Canadians and Brits would prolly disagree.

Lisa

[nygreenguy]

Bigger government equals more corruption. The whole system is bullshit but I guess it is better than any other place. Canadians and Brits would prolly disagree.

Lisa


There are very few people who actually want smaller government. IIRC, not a single president has EVER reduced the size of the government. 2 of the biggest have been recent republicans. Republicans want to slash and burn social programs while invading peoples personal lives while expanding our empire. Democrats want to make more bills, more laws and more departments.

Libertarians are the only ones who really want to shrink government but there ideas are simply in fantasy land and seem to forget the lessons of history.

So really, the idea that bigger government = more corruption is simply false.

[BioBeing]

I want a more efficient government. Size is really only relevant to the number of services you actually want your government to provide. When people say they want a smaller governemnt, seems to me they are saying they want less services. So which do we cut?

[Goodchild]

I want a more efficient government. Size is really only relevant to the number of services you actually want your government to provide. When people say they want a smaller governemnt, seems to me they are saying they want less services. So which do we cut?

Exactly. I have no problem with the idea of a more efficient government. It's certainly possible. But for that to happen voters have to make politicians accountable at the ballot box ... and far too often people vote for the person with an R or D next to their name just because of that tag. Unfortunately, as well, those with the R tag have been mostly co-opted by the far right into being forced to support social policies that most people just don't want.

The US desperately needs it's party-in-power to vie against the loyal-opposition ... but the republicans aren't providing that any longer. All they have are Tea Parties which become more about thinly-veiled whining that their candidates didn't win than they are about an actual issue.

Bio is absolutely right about the problem with smaller government. Any attempt to make it smaller just hurts those that benefited from the programs that are cut and nobody ever votes to take benefits away from themselves.

Nations like Finland have much bigger government than the US (comparatively) and the standard of living there is markedly higher than it is here, as is the tax burden. But the people don't really complain, they are getting what they pay for and they want those services.

If the party in opposition had a philosophy beyond "I've got mine, Jack" and actually pushed for more efficient government rather than the myth of smaller government we might see tremendous progress.

[Goodchild]

Example of problem with smaller government ... elderly individuals that protested in the Tea Parties. Those that were actually complaining about taxation and spending (rather than conspiracy nut-jobs) would be the first to scream bloody murder if the programs cut were Medicaid and Social Security.

[Anne]

tangential but IMO interesting:

I'm reading a book about early American embroidery, and every chapter/section has a bit about how 'after the Revolution, trade was opened and xxx became available' or 'after the Revolution, xxx became affordable'.

It really seems, form a housewife's POV, the Revolution opened up the world.

[dancer_rnb]

If we got rid of the various tax deductions and tax credits we could cut the tax rate.