Question For The Religious

[TheBear]

What would it take for you to renounce your faith?

[Mung Dynasty]

Hmmm. Should be amusing. :D *waits with breath smelling of pilchards*

[DMB]

I think a lot of people will find that very difficult to answer. If their faith feels central to their lives, it might feel like renouncing themselves.

[TheBear]

Hmmm. Should be amusing. :D *waits with breath smelling of pilchards*
It should make for an interesting thread. That's for sure.

I think a lot of people will find that very difficult to answer. If their faith feels central to their lives, it might feel like renouncing themselves.
You're right.

It is a difficult question. But it is a question that must be faced head-on. And for some, the question has never come up before. For others, they are forbidden to even entertain such questions. The question gives them something to contemplate and explore. Who knows? Maybe I've planted a positive seed for someone. :D However, honest replies would be appreciated too. :cheers:

Then again, maybe I'm being overly optimistic. :p

[Norrin Radd]

I think a lot of people will find that very difficult to answer. If their faith feels central to their lives, it might feel like renouncing themselves.

Excellent! I don't think I could have come up with a better way of phrasing it.

[DMB]

I think a lot of people will find that very difficult to answer. If their faith feels central to their lives, it might feel like renouncing themselves.

Excellent! I don't think I could have come up with a better way of phrasing it.

Of course, I think it is a dreadfully deluded thing to make faith the centre of one's life! :D

[Alex]

I think many people who end up without any religious beliefs have just drifted away from their faith, or their beliefs wither from a lack of "positive reinforcement". Only a few people seem to consciously renounce their Christian faith after examining it carefully, and then rejecting it on reasoned grounds.

Some individuals seem to be impervious to the lure of religious beliefs and are never seduced by them - even as children.

[Brother Daniel]

I'm not convinced that people should be able to answer this question. Or, to put it more precisely: If you can't answer, then IMO that inability does not reflect negatively on you. At all.

To renounce something wilfully would be dishonest anyway. Belief and unbelief should not be a matter of choice. They should be a matter of discovery. (Excuse me for sounding like a broken record; I know I've said this a hundred times.)

So a statement of the form "If X happens, I'll renounce my faith", if it is said at all, should be said in the spirit of prediction rather than in the spirit of promise. But how can any of us really be sure of the actual causality underlying our sets of beliefs?

[Brother Daniel]

Notwithstanding my previous post, I agree with everything DMB has said ITT. :D

[Alex]

Cradle Christians, for example, haven't discovered their beliefs. They were raised in the faith and can't question it effectively at least until they've acquired the powers of reason. At which point they may then or later renounce the whole thing. Julian the Apostate was brought up as Christian and served as a lector, but he renounced Christianity and reverted to pagan Hellenism.

Communism (a political creed) has often been renounced.

[Anne]

I can't picture a why would I to be able to think about this...

[Lanakila]

I think many people who end up without any religious beliefs have just drifted away from their faith, or their beliefs wither from a lack of "positive reinforcement". Only a few people seem to consciously renounce their Christian faith after examining it carefully, and then rejecting it on reasoned grounds.

Some individuals seem to be impervious to the lure of religious beliefs and are never seduced by them - even as children.
It might seem a few, but the numbers of deconverts on reasoned grounds are growing. There are entire websites dedicated to helping deconverts from religions recover. Exchristian.net is one, there is one for those leaving Islam as well.

[Lisa0315]

I have been through quite a bit since I became a Christian. My faith is shaken, shattered even, but it is still there. I cannot imagine anything in which I would deny Christ altogether.

Lisa

[Lanakila]

Honey losing your faith isn't denying Christ. It's realizing that it's all make believe. Putting it in terms like denying Christ is what makes it seem an impossible task. The hardest part in my deconversion that brought many tears was realizing that all the time I was praying and talking to Jesus whom I thought of as my best friend I was really just talking to myself. But the hidden truth is that all the time you were leaning on Jesus (like the song) you were actually doing it yourself and in your own strength. YOU ARE STRONGER THAN YOU EVER IMAGINED!

[BlackBerry]

^Nice post.

[Zygote]

But how can any of us really be sure of the actual causality underlying our sets of beliefs?

This is one question I would really like the answer to and it pisses me off no end that I probably won't live long enough for brain science and psychology to progress far enough in my lifetime.

No one says to himself "I need to believe six impossible things before breakfast and I've only got two this morning. Ah, this Jesus story has a few I can use to reach my quota."

Faith fills deep personal needs. Until those needs are either confronted, addressed or filled with something else, faith remains a necessary gear in that person's mental/emotional machinery.

I don't know if we'll ever be able to do a physical/chemical scan and say "Ah, you have a deep fear of uncertainty compounded by a strong responsiveness to parental-type authority. Take this X-therapy and your case of god-of-the-gaps should be gone in no time." People and religions are way too complex for that.

[Anne]

I don't know if we'll ever be able to do a physical/chemical scan and say "Ah, you have a deep fear of uncertainty compounded by a strong responsiveness to parental-type authority. Take this X-therapy and your case of god-of-the-gaps should be gone in no time." People and religions are way too complex for that.

omg, you'd make a fortune!

[Barbarian]

I have been through quite a bit since I became a Christian. My faith is shaken, shattered even, but it is still there. I cannot imagine anything in which I would deny Christ altogether.

LisaFrom reading deconversion stories on IIDB, I am inclined to think that absolutely no one can imagine it while still having faith.

Also, I am of the opinion that Christian faith = fear of Hell, and all else is window-dressing. Why can't you imagine denying Christ? Because you still believe it to be a bad thing. What does bad thing means in this context? It goes against what God wants. Why is that a problem? Would you have such difficulty dealing with the issue if Christianity taught that in the end we all die and that's the end of it?

Christianity does selectively cripple the thinking-about-religion ability of a great many - I'd say most - believers, without affecting the rest of their cognitive abilities in any way. It goes like this: when one learns the basics of faith, his or her (dammit I hate PC pronoun usage!) common sense kicks in a few times and promptly comes to the wrong conclusion or even to the wrong question. Now, there is such a thing as a thoughtcrime in Christianity, according to which you think the wrong thoughts (e.g. did God have a threesome with Mary and the Holy Ghost?) and you go to Hell. After a few such incidents the incipient Christian, most often a child, learns to suppress such thoughts. In an evil recursive scheme, the nagging thought that one is suppressing such thoughts is in itself a thought to be suppressed for the same reason. So they suppress this knowledge too. This goes on for a couple of layers, until the original realization that this is BS is covered in deep denial.

As for proof, the best proof is reading some of Elliot Aronson's work and recognize the symptoms. The best indication that this kind of fishiness is going on is the fact that many Christians experience terrible disinterest and boredom when faced with certain basic questions they should be worried about. The reaction, although counterintuitive, is in fact the well-known manifestation of a coping mechanism elicited by an attack on a suppressed thought. When one gets angry instead, it shows that the cracks became critical and the dispersion of denial is at hand. On a related note, one man's poisoning the well is another man's armchair psychology.

If you believe in the possibility of a soul surviving death and perhaps being thrown into the eternal fire for having the wrong religion, how come you are betting on being right by accident? There are tens of thousands of different sects, and surely so many different opinions about what one should do if he wants to save himself from Hell. Surely someone with this conundrum at hand would have to spend his waking hours (about 20 a day) trying to make sure they made the right decision; one would have all the excuses to go barking mad from such an ordeal. Yet many Christians don't care; mostly they do not even react, and a few times try to reassure themselves that they don't have to deal with the issue, e.g. because it was brought up by an atheist and why should atheists care if they don't believe it anyway? Other Christians keep telling themselves that they cannot be wrong, they have found the exact one sect that guarantees salvation, or that the differences between the sects don't really matter, that deadly counterarguments have a sell-by date so for instance if an argument worked well in the 19th century, it should by now be retired and the claim it destroyed should be considered as being back and in need for a new putdown, or that they just know in their heart that they have the truth because Jesus told them so and of course it is just impossible that they are self-deluded about this latter possibility, nay, there is not a shred of need to even consider it - but they all appear to know that this possibility cannot be eliminated, in fact, it must feel that there is absolutely no handle, no starting point from which one could even start investigating the issue.

[VoxRat]

... Julian the Apostate was brought up as Christian and served as a lector, but he renounced Christianity and reverted to pagan Hellenism. ....
I named my son after him!
Made for an interesting day at grade school the day the assignment was "tell the class how you got your name"

[Lisa0315]

For Barbarian...

I think I could reject the God of the OT, but I really, literally, and truly LOVE Jesus Christ. The problem is that God and Jesus are one and the same.

For me, it would be like cheating on my husband. I am just not wired that way. Love means loving despite things you do not understand or agree with. Believe me, I did that with my husband for long enough. I still love him even today, but simply cannot live with him.

That is similar to where I am with God right now. I love God but I cannot live with Him right now. It is too painful and I feel betrayed. I am waiting on the revelation that all of what I have been through really has been for my own good. (Romans 8)

Lisa

[Alex]

For Barbarian...
...... I really, literally, and truly LOVE Jesus Christ. The problem is that God and Jesus are one and the same.

Lisa
How can you "literally" love someone you don't know personally and who died 2000 years ago?

Suppose I said that I literally loved Julius Caesar; wouldn't you have reason to think I was mentally deranged?

[Lisa0315]

For Barbarian...
...... I really, literally, and truly LOVE Jesus Christ. The problem is that God and Jesus are one and the same.

Lisa
How can you "literally" love someone you don't know personally and who died 2000 years ago?

Suppose I said that I literally loved Julius Caesar; wouldn't you have reason to think I was mentally deranged?

Jesus is real to me.

[Alex]

How can you love someone who isn't physically present like a "real" man. He isn't even a memory of someone you may have loved. All the information you have about Jesus is contained in the gospels. He's a character in a story.

[Lisa0315]

How can you love someone who isn't physically present like a "real" man. He isn't even a memory of someone you may have loved. All the information you have about Jesus is contained in the gospels. He's a character in a story.

I would agree before my conversion, not after. It cannot be explained. I am not trying to be mysterious. I just know this question has been asked and answered before, and nothing I can tell you about will convince you.

Lisa

[Alex]

I would agree before my conversion, not after. It cannot be explained. I am not trying to be mysterious. I just know this question has been asked and answered before, and nothing I can tell you about will convince you.

Lisa

We are operating on different wavelengths. It's useless to make literal inquiries about someone's religious experience.

[Lisa0315]

I would agree before my conversion, not after. It cannot be explained. I am not trying to be mysterious. I just know this question has been asked and answered before, and nothing I can tell you about will convince you.

Lisa

We are operating on different wavelengths. It's useless to make literal inquiries about someone's religious experience.

That, I can agree with. Take it at facevalue. Asking why is not going to result in anything you will accept.

Lisa

[Norrin Radd]

But how can any of us really be sure of the actual causality underlying our sets of beliefs?

This is one question I would really like the answer to and it pisses me off no end that I probably won't live long enough for brain science and psychology to progress far enough in my lifetime.

No one says to himself "I need to believe six impossible things before breakfast and I've only got two this morning. Ah, this Jesus story has a few I can use to reach my quota."

Faith fills deep personal needs. Until those needs are either confronted, addressed or filled with something else, faith remains a necessary gear in that person's mental/emotional machinery.

I don't know if we'll ever be able to do a physical/chemical scan and say "Ah, you have a deep fear of uncertainty compounded by a strong responsiveness to parental-type authority. Take this X-therapy and your case of god-of-the-gaps should be gone in no time." People and religions are way too complex for that.

If anyone positively, without a doubt finds actual "scientific" answers to those questions, it would still have infinitesimally little if anything to do with my own experience of faith, and I'd venture to say the same is true of at least a large percentage of the Xians I known online and IRL.

[Norrin Radd]

I would agree before my conversion, not after. It cannot be explained. I am not trying to be mysterious. I just know this question has been asked and answered before, and nothing I can tell you about will convince you.

Lisa

We are operating on different wavelengths. It's useless to make literal inquiries about someone's religious experience.

That, I can agree with. Take it at face value. Asking why is not going to result in anything you will accept.

Lisa

Yup. Believers and unbelievers have at some very basic level a different way of perceiving reality. It invariably leads to frustrating and ultimately insurmountable communication impasses.

[Brother Daniel]

Believers and unbelievers have at some very basic level a different way of perceiving reality.
I won't argue with this.
It invariably leads to frustrating and ultimately insurmountable communication impasses.
But this is surely overstated. "Invariably?" I think not. "Often" or even "in the great majority of cases", I'd go along with. But "invariably"?

[TheBear]

Yup. Believers and unbelievers have at some very basic level a different way of perceiving reality.
Yup. Some are even willing to suspend disbelief! :eek:

It's crazy, I tell ya. The world's gone mad!

[VoxRat]

Believers and unbelievers have at some very basic level a different way of perceiving reality.
I won't argue with this. Nor will I.

Are both equally valid, or defensible?

Thats' another question.

[Goodchild]

I notice that none of the believers have yet been able to answer the actual OP, which is understandable. Here's a side question that relates to the OP: How long will christianity wait for the second coming before a majority of people decide it was all bunk to begin with? Another thousand years? Do you think there will still be an appreciable number of christians waiting for the second coming in the year 10,000?

[Norrin Radd]

Believers and unbelievers have at some very basic level a different way of perceiving reality.
I won't argue with this.
It invariably leads to frustrating and ultimately insurmountable communication impasses.
But this is surely overstated. "Invariably?" I think not. "Often" or even "in the great majority of cases", I'd go along with. But "invariably"?

Well, I thought that over before I said it. I suppose you could be correct, but I really do think that when two people have fundamentally different perceptions of "how things are," at some point communication will collapse. I guess maybe someone with training in logic and philosophy might be able to drag the process out considerably longer, but that's about it.

[DMB]

Believers and unbelievers have at some very basic level a different way of perceiving reality.
I won't argue with this.
It invariably leads to frustrating and ultimately insurmountable communication impasses.
But this is surely overstated. "Invariably?" I think not. "Often" or even "in the great majority of cases", I'd go along with. But "invariably"?

Well, I thought that over before I said it. I suppose you could be correct, but I really do think that when two people have fundamentally different perceptions of "how things are," at some point communication will collapse. I guess maybe someone with training in logic and philosophy might be able to drag the process out considerably longer, but that's about it.

I do wonder, however, if the great disconnection is between "believers" and "unbelievers" and not simply between individuals. Does any of us ever quite understand how the world appears to another? Norrin Radd, how sure are you that another self-declared Christian, perhaps one who, say, belongs to the Orthodox or Coptic churches and has been reared in a different language and culture, will perceive reality as you do?

I think it was Russell who wrote about "Catholic atheists" and "Protestant atheists" and since I now number "Muslim atheists" among my friends I am aware of how much the cutural background affects one's POV.

[Norrin Radd]

...
I do wonder, however, if the great disconnection is between "believers" and "unbelievers" and not simply between individuals. Does any of us ever quite understand how the world appears to another?

No. I know what "red" looks like to me. You may look at my big red Bible over there on the shelf and agree, "Yep, it's red." But for all we know, what I'm calling red would appear blue if I saw it through your eyes and with your brain.


Norrin Radd, how sure are you that another self-declared Christian, perhaps one who, say, belongs to the Orthodox or Coptic churches and has been reared in a different language and culture, will perceive reality as you do?

I'm sure it would be different. Eastern thought is a bit "spookier" than western. As a pneumatic, I may have a bit more in common with Quakers than with some Evangelicals.


I think it was Russell who wrote about "Catholic atheists" and "Protestant atheists" and since I now number "Muslim atheists" among my friends I am aware of how much the cutural background affects one's POV.

IMO, pretty much the most defining characteristic of Fundamentalist Xians is a "high" view of Scripture. That was not something I was raised with. We considered ourselves Christians, but we didn't go to church, we didn't say grace, we only haphazardly did bedtime prayers, we didn't talk about Scripture or even have a "family Bible." It's been a bit over 29 years since I got saved and my memory may be faulty, but my recollection is that my view of Scripture came sort of "automatically" as part of the package when I got saved, and that the occasional instruction I got about the inspiration and authority of Scripture only affirmed what I already believed.

[Mung Dynasty]

For Barbarian...

I think I could reject the God of the OT, but I really, literally, and truly LOVE Jesus Christ. The problem is that God and Jesus are one and the same.

<snip>

LisaJust noting that what you are saying here is precisely the same as what devout Muslims say about Mohammed.

[Barbarian]

For Barbarian...

I think I could reject the God of the OT, but I really, literally, and truly LOVE Jesus Christ. The problem is that God and Jesus are one and the same.I can see how that could be a problem. The genius of compassion who said 'let the first stone be cast by someone without sin' (good thing Mary wasn't in the crowd, innit?) is alleged to be identical with the blood god of ancient, merciless ages. It's a tough one.

The bad news is, you'll never reconcile these aspects; anything you'll accept as reconciliation will be temporary and just a subtle way of giving up thinking about the conundrum. The good news is the same as the bad news, you'll never reconcile these two aspects, so you'll have to find some other explanation. (I'd have put a devil smiley right here, but I hate smileys. They should not be necessary.)<snip>

I love God but I cannot live with Him right now. It is too painful and I feel betrayed. I am waiting on the revelation that all of what I have been through really has been for my own good. (Romans 8)

LisaWould you accept such an explanation in any other circumstances? Like "Of course, ma'am, that worrying noise coming from the engine does sound somewhat bad, but there's no need to take a look at it before you buy this used car; the explanation of how that noise is harmless will be made clear in the end". Well, I don't think so. This technique, of proposing an explanation would be forthcoming in the end, could justify any bullshit regardless of its merits; in fact, it would be used to justify mostly propositions without any merit, because the other kind does not need such trickery. The only support it needs is the unwillingness of the believer to pursue the particular line of questioning.

[Criada]

For Barbarian...

I think I could reject the God of the OT, but I really, literally, and truly LOVE Jesus Christ. The problem is that God and Jesus are one and the same.

<snip>

LisaJust noting that what you are saying here is precisely the same as what devout Muslims say about Mohammed.

I sincerely doubt that any devout Muslim would claim that Mohammed was God! Muslims believe in one God, Mohammed is a prophet, the greatest prophet, but made no claim to divinity!

[Criada]

What would it take for you to renounce your faith?

It's an interesting question, but not, I think, one that can be answered with any degree of certainty.
A year ago I would have said that nothing would make me renounce Christianity... now, I am a lot less sure.
In reality, even then, had someone threatened my children, or possibly anyone else's children, I would probably have renounced God to save them. But, that, I suppose, would just be words, spoken with the intention to repent later, and so probably not what you are talking about.

At the moment, I have tried, many times, to renounce a God who sometimes seems capricious and unkind. But, I come back, time and time again, to Jesus, to the Cross.. and... it won't go away.

[Criada]

From reading deconversion stories on IIDB, I am inclined to think that absolutely no one can imagine it while still having faith.

Also, I am of the opinion that Christian faith = fear of Hell, and all else is window-dressing. Why can't you imagine denying Christ? Because you still believe it to be a bad thing. What does bad thing means in this context? It goes against what God wants. Why is that a problem? Would you have such difficulty dealing with the issue if Christianity taught that in the end we all die and that's the end of it?

<snip>


Actually, this is not true.
For many years I 'knew' that I was going to hell. I remained a Christian because, God is just, if He wants to send me to hell, it is His right, and I will still live for Him.

Sounds crazy, and fortunately through studying the scripture for myself rather than listening to others, my view of God changed considerably.
But, for many, the 'avoiding hell' issue is very far from the most important.

[Barbarian]

For many years I 'knew' that I was going to hell. I remained a Christian because, God is just, if He wants to send me to hell, it is His right, and I will still live for Him.Fortunately, I can't even start to imagine living with such a belief. It must have sucked, if we are to stay within the realm of understatements.Sounds crazy, and fortunately through studying the scripture for myself rather than listening to others, my view of God changed considerably.Some more detail concerning your new and improved view could be of help. There's no hell, there's a hell but it's empty, you specifically won't go there, no one can know for sure while alive, after all it won't be so bad, God is not just but what can we do ... the possibilities are endless and I can't guess which one is the right one.

[Criada]

Some more detail concerning your new and improved view could be of help. There's no hell, there's a hell but it's empty, you specifically won't go there, no one can know for sure while alive, after all it won't be so bad, God is not just but what can we do ... the possibilities are endless and I can't guess which one is the right one.

At the moment I cannot begin to answer that question in the depth it deserves.
I believe, I think, that some kind of hell does exist. I also believe that god, if He is anything, is just.
But I have come to see more of His compassion, His love for what He has created.
And... I cannot accept heaven if anyone is condemned to some kind of eternal suffering. I would rather go to hell than spend eternity knowing that others were there.
And I cannot believe that God is less compassionate than I.

[Mung Dynasty]

For Barbarian...

I think I could reject the God of the OT, but I really, literally, and truly LOVE Jesus Christ. The problem is that God and Jesus are one and the same.

<snip>

LisaJust noting that what you are saying here is precisely the same as what devout Muslims say about Mohammed.

I sincerely doubt that any devout Muslim would claim that Mohammed was God! Muslims believe in one God, Mohammed is a prophet, the greatest prophet, but made no claim to divinity!
I was a bit slack with my snipping. The bolded part above is the relevant part. Muslims claim to love Mohammed. In fact they are commanded to love him more than their own families and some claim to do so. What Lisa was saying was just the same. Why Jesus and not Mohammed?

[David B]

Just noting that what you are saying here is precisely the same as what devout Muslims say about Mohammed.

I sincerely doubt that any devout Muslim would claim that Mohammed was God! Muslims believe in one God, Mohammed is a prophet, the greatest prophet, but made no claim to divinity!
I was a bit slack with my snipping. The bolded part above is the relevant part. Muslims claim to love Mohammed. In fact they are commanded to love him more than their own families and some claim to do so. What Lisa was saying was just the same. Why Jesus and not Mohammed?

My bold.

Or Sai Baba or Maharishi or Wayne Bent or Jim Jones or Do and Peep....?

David

[TheBear]

What would it take for you to renounce your faith?

It's an interesting question, but not, I think, one that can be answered with any degree of certainty.
A year ago I would have said that nothing would make me renounce Christianity... now, I am a lot less sure.
In reality, even then, had someone threatened my children, or possibly anyone else's children, I would probably have renounced God to save them. But, that, I suppose, would just be words, spoken with the intention to repent later, and so probably not what you are talking about.

At the moment, I have tried, many times, to renounce a God who sometimes seems capricious and unkind. But, I come back, time and time again, to Jesus, to the Cross.. and... it won't go away.
I can certainly appreciate everything you're going through now and in the past. I had very similar experiences.

I was pragmatic in my approach, dealing with one issue at a time, and exploring each of them thoroughly. As you know, mine was roughly a 2 year process. Before that, I was a thoroughly indoctrinated, born-again, Bible-believing Christian. I studied under and worked with world renowned Christian Apologists. (I chuckle every time a Christian replies to me with something along the lines of, "You need to learn the Bible" :D)

Anyway, there's a lot to sort through. So, don't try to tackle it all at once. Take it one, (or maybe a few), at a time, and you won't go crazy over it.

[B.H.]

The Prophet Muhammed was just that---a prophet but deity he was not.

[TheBear]

The Prophet Muhammed was just that---a prophet but deity he was not.
That's probably because there are no deities.



So, where does that leave the prophets?

[Mung Dynasty]

The Prophet Muhammed was just that---a prophet but deity he was not.
So what? The point wasn't about his divinity or lack of it but about people's emotional reaction to him. Lisa's reaction to the legend of Jesus is exactly the same as a devout Muslim's reaction to the legend of Mohammed, yet she says her reaction is one of the big things binding her to Christianity. What I'm saying is what does her reaction have to do with the truth or otherwise of the belief system in question?

[Ray Moscow]

The Prophet Muhammed was just that---a prophet but deity he was not.

He wasn't even a prophet, actually.

However, his followers act as if he were a god, often threatening others with violence for the slightest criticism of their supposed "prophet".

[VoxRat]

The Prophet Muhammed was just that---a prophet but deity he was not.
So what? The point wasn't about his divinity or lack of it but about people's emotional reaction to him. Lisa's reaction to the legend of Jesus is exactly the same as a devout Muslim's reaction to the legend of Mohammed, yet she says her reaction is one of the big things binding her to Christianity. What I'm saying is what does her reaction have to do with the truth or otherwise of the belief system in question?I don't know much about Islam. Is it possible to be a good Muslim and not "love" Muhammed? For that matter, do you have to "love" Allah to be a good Muslim? Or do you just have to submit, obey?

Christians are supposed, more or less by definition I think, to "love" Jesus.

I guess it's not so far-fetched. I'm pretty sure that a lot of people love - deeply, passionately - the idealized version of another human, not recognizing the difference between that idealized version and the reality of the actual living breathing person it's presumably based on.

[Lisa0315]

The Prophet Muhammed was just that---a prophet but deity he was not.
So what? The point wasn't about his divinity or lack of it but about people's emotional reaction to him. Lisa's reaction to the legend of Jesus is exactly the same as a devout Muslim's reaction to the legend of Mohammed, yet she says her reaction is one of the big things binding her to Christianity. What I'm saying is what does her reaction have to do with the truth or otherwise of the belief system in question?

I feel like a bug under a microscope. :evil: Let me know when y'all have faith figured out.

Lisa

[Notta]

I feel like a bug under a microscope. :evil: Let me know when y'all have faith figured out.

Lisa
Maybe it's time to re-think having an exclusive engagement thread where you can talk to one or two people without being piled upon. Not that I think you ARE being piled upon, but when a bunch of people keep asking you different questions, it can get pretty difficult to answer them ALL.

And if other people want to talk about the topic and the responses, they can do so in a peanut gallery. Maybe the 'formal debate' section can be used as a more 'informal one-on-one discussion' to keep you from being overwhelmed or microscopically investigated.

[Lisa0315]

I feel like a bug under a microscope. :evil: Let me know when y'all have faith figured out.

Lisa
Maybe it's time to re-think having an exclusive engagement thread where you can talk to one or two people without being piled upon. Not that I think you ARE being piled upon, but when a bunch of people keep asking you different questions, it can get pretty difficult to answer them ALL.

And if other people want to talk about the topic and the responses, they can do so in a peanut gallery. Maybe the 'formal debate' section can be used as a more 'informal one-on-one discussion' to keep you from being overwhelmed or microscopically investigated.

No, no, no. I am joking. I just find it funny in a warped kind of way how all the atheists are disecting the Christian. It tickles my funny bone. I do not feel piled on in any way. :D

[Notta]

Good! But I remember the 'educating Lisa' thread in E&O back in the heyday of TR, and something like that (but with far fewer participants) might not be a bad idea over here, too.

[Lisa0315]

Good! But I remember the 'educating Lisa' thread in E&O back in the heyday of TR, and something like that (but with far fewer participants) might not be a bad idea over here, too.

I just think those kinds of things happen. I don't think it could be re-created, tbh. It was an pivotal moment in forum history, I admit. :D

Lisa

[VoxRat]

What people need to remember is that something like Christianity (or Islam, or Scientology...) represents a set of positive assertions. It's not that Christianity and atheism are somehow symmetrical and equivalent propositions.

The burden is always going to be on the guy claiming "I was abducted by aliens" rather than those who say "I'm skeptical; give me some reason to believe what you say."

[Ada]

I am sorry for people who stay with religion for the fear of hell.

Yet I know people who stay in their faith for the feeling of love. I think it must be similar feeling to being in love (like romantic love involving hormones and all).
Here are two interesting talks about love and brain:
http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/helen_fisher_studies_the_brain_in_love.html
http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/helen_fisher_tells_us_why_we_love_cheat.html

Imagine person who is "high on love" with somebody. It it extremely hard convince person in that state that loved one has some bad traits. That maybe this is not the best person to spend the live with. That maybe time spent obsessing and preparing for next date would be better spent doing some other things. You may argue that romantic love is toward real person. I am not so sure. If you ever experienced disillusionment with somebody you loved so fiercely before, you will almost think that this is somebody completely different. So I would argue that we love our image of person, not real person. (I think Jung used term projection - we project all our hopes and desires to to that person).

I suspect the same could be happening to people who feel loved by Christ. It is quite convenient not to have real person. You can make this imaginative lover be whoever/whatever you want. Real person behavior could interfere with your expectations, person who does not exist will not.


I would compare original question to this:
Assume that you are talking to somebody who is madly in love.
"What would it make you to leave that person?" Reasonable question, but I would not expect to get reasonable answer. This kind of thinking does not occur at "being in love" stage.

I agree with some earlier poster, that people rather discover that they lost religion, but while they are believers they cannot say what should happen for them to loose it.

I was never into imaginative friends. And I think this is why I had little use of what religion has to offer.

:-) Ada

[VoxRat]

I am sorry for people who stay with religion for the fear of hell.

Yet I know people who stay in their faith for the feeling of love. I think it must be similar feeling to being in love (like romantic love involving hormones and all).
Here are two interesting talks about love and brain:
http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/helen_fisher_studies_the_brain_in_love.html
http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/helen_fisher_tells_us_why_we_love_cheat.html

Imagine person who is "high on love" with somebody. It it extremely hard convince person in that state that loved one has some bad traits. That maybe this is not the best person to spend the live with. That maybe time spent obsessing and preparing for next date would be better spent doing some other things. You may argue that romantic love is toward real person. I am not so sure. If you ever experienced disillusionment with somebody you loved so fiercely before, you will almost think that this is somebody completely different. So I would argue that we love our image of person, not real person. (I think Jung used term projection - we project all our hopes and desires to to that person).

I suspect the same could be happening to people who feel loved by Christ. It is quite convenient not to have real person. You can make this imaginative lover be whoever/whatever you want. Real person behavior could interfere with your expectations, person who does not exist will not.Yes. That was sort of my point here:
...
I guess it's not so far-fetched. I'm pretty sure that a lot of people love - deeply, passionately - the idealized version of another human, not recognizing the difference between that idealized version and the reality of the actual living breathing person it's presumably based on.

...
I was never into imaginative friends...

:-) Ada
Really? I find unimaginative friends kinda boring.

Imaginary friends, now... that's another story! :)

[Barbarian]

I am sorry for people who stay with religion for the fear of hell.

Yet I know people who stay in their faith for the feeling of love.Concerning the apparent implication that love of Jesus excludes the possibility that one's religious approach could still be based on fear, one must exclude the possibility of Stockholm syndrome playing a role.

X thinks his fate is in the hands of an inscrutable supernatural tyrant, and he might end up in everlasting hell just for being bad.
X does not have the slightest real interaction with this entity, thus he cannot verify or even notice if the way he imagines it has changed.
Therefore X will be both inclined and able to imagine that he and this entity are best buddies.

[Barbarian]

No, no, no. I am joking. I just find it funny in a warped kind of way how all the atheists are disecting the Christian. It tickles my funny bone. I do not feel piled on in any way. :DDissecting the Christian, now there is a disturbing mental image I did not really need. "And this, gentlemen, is a Christian liver". Brrr.

[Lisa0315]

No, no, no. I am joking. I just find it funny in a warped kind of way how all the atheists are disecting the Christian. It tickles my funny bone. I do not feel piled on in any way. :DDissecting the Christian, now there is a disturbing mental image I did not really need. "And this, gentlemen, is a Christian liver". Brrr.

Forget the liver! Find the soul! It is in the heart somewhere! :D

[Danhalen]

I'm inclined to think the believer will denounce his faith for the same reasons I will gain it: compelling evidence that what I believe is not an accurate representation of reality. Sure, that's pretty damned vague, but isn't that what it takes for us all to believe anything?

[Brother Daniel]

But what is "compelling"? You haven't answered the question; you've just swept most of the interesting stuff into that one word. :)

[David B]

No, no, no. I am joking. I just find it funny in a warped kind of way how all the atheists are disecting the Christian. It tickles my funny bone. I do not feel piled on in any way. :DDissecting the Christian, now there is a disturbing mental image I did not really need. "And this, gentlemen, is a Christian liver". Brrr.

Forget the liver! Find the soul! It is in the heart somewhere! :D

No, the foot! And learn to spell:evil:

David

[Danhalen]

But what is "compelling"? You haven't answered the question; you've just swept most of the interesting stuff into that one word. :)I know. I do not think the question can be answered short of some hyperbolic response.

[Joykins]

What would it take for you to renounce your faith?

I would have to stop believing it, and perhaps even develop some kind of antipathy to it as well.

[Joykins]

I have been through quite a bit since I became a Christian. My faith is shaken, shattered even, but it is still there. I cannot imagine anything in which I would deny Christ altogether.

LisaFrom reading deconversion stories on IIDB, I am inclined to think that absolutely no one can imagine it while still having faith.

Also, I am of the opinion that Christian faith = fear of Hell, and all else is window-dressing.

How does this opinion square with Christians who do not believe in Hell?

[Joykins]

Or is the question really, what would make me stop believing it? I really have no idea. It's not like you guys haven't tried. :p

Renouncing has connotations of repudiation, but I think it's just as likely if I did leave Christianity I would look back on it as a stage on my journey. It has not, on net, been a negative in my life.

[VoxRat]

Or is the question really, what would make me stop believing it? I really have no idea. It's not like you guys haven't tried. :p

Renouncing has connotations of repudiation, but I think it's just as likely if I did leave Christianity I would look back on it as a stage on my journey. It has not, on net, been a negative in my life.
I guess that's largely how I see it. I thought a lot about it during a formative time in life. Even though I've since concluded it's all bullshit, having thought a lot about it is partly who I am. I probably wouldn't be married to the woman I'm married to (erstwhile nun; thorough atheist) if we didn't have this common fascination what makes people believe the weird things they do, and in particular the Christian weird things.

[Ada]

I was never into imaginative friends...

Really? I find unimaginative friends kinda boring.

Imaginary friends, now... that's another story! :)

Thank you for funny explanation of difference. I am not native speaker and I appreciate all help in making my English better.

:-) Ada