Treatment of Muslim apostates

[DMB]

Should they be beheaded?

http://www.arabnews.com/?page=24&section=0&article=122050&d=30&m=4&y=2009

SHARJAH: In a session here on religious freedom, Muslim scholars from around the world yesterday debated how apostates should be treated according to Islamic law...

...“The view that Islamic scholars of the past had different views on how to punish apostates is incorrect. They only disagreed on how soon apostates should be executed; should it be done in three days, one week or few months. The waiting time is left to the discretion of the ruler,” said Muhammad Al-Nujaimi, a professor at the Higher Institute of Law in Riyadh.

[Worldtraveller]

Of course, it's the only thing one would expect from the religion of peace..... duh hangin's too good for 'em. :p

[HinduWoman]

A discussion on religious freedom?

But then, when Muslims first conquered India many Hindus who refused to convert were killed.
It has been justified on grounds that the choice --- death or conversion --- does not mean coercion since it allowed the Hindu the freedom to choose death. (I am serious; that was actually arguement given by some).

[premjan]

I think many Hindus of e.g. lower castes may have converted because the rulers were Muslims too.

[PostMortem]

(I am serious; that was actually arguement given by some).

I have no doubt that this is still the argument given by some.

[DMB]

To be fair, I quoted the worst bit. If you read the report I linked to, there were voices in favour of a much more moderate stance.

I have never fully understood attitudes of this sort to apostasy or heresy anyway, whether from Muslims or Christians.

On the one hand, you have an omnipotent deity who is prefectly capable of punishing whom he wishes and who is supposed to see through outward conformity to the truth of people's real thoughts and on the other hand you have this drive for outward conformity from his followers. To what end? I can only suppose that it has a lot more to do with human power structures and a form of tribalism than to do with anything much that the deity might be supposed to require.

[Mung Dynasty]

To be fair, the worst bit you quoted has been the line taken by all major schools of Islamic law for centuries.

[DMB]

To be fair, the worst bit you quoted has been the line taken by all major schools of Islamic law for centuries.

That's true, but we are seeing some voices in favour of reform in Islam. The difficulty IMO is in finding any ideological basis for it.

[Mung Dynasty]

There isn't really one unless you ditch all the sahih ahadith, which doesn't leave you with much and in any case is considered bloody close to apostasy by most Muslims.

[Ray Moscow]

What I don't get is how an adult convert to Islam justifies this shit, even to himself/herself.

If the stuff were worth a pile of horseshit, you wouldn't have to threaten to kill people who stop believing it.

[Mung Dynasty]

What I don't get is how an adult convert to Islam justifies this shit, even to himself/herself.

If the stuff were worth a pile of horseshit, you wouldn't have to threaten to kill people who stop believing it.
The usual deal with adult converts is that they are fed a sugar coated version and don't find out about all the crazy stuff until they've been Muslims for a while. The deconversion rate is pretty impressive. :D

We have quite a few people like that on the CEMB member list.

[DMB]

Don't forget, Ray, the centuries of Christians behaving in a similar way: killing people for heresy, apostasy, atheism and blasphemy.

When I mentioned tribalism, I was thinking in animal terms: cohesion of the group, hostility/fear towards those outside it. I don't think there is much rationality in it at all, except on the part of those in power who want conformity as part of their control strategy.

[Mung Dynasty]

When I mentioned tribalism, I was thinking in animal terms: cohesion of the group, hostility/fear towards those outside it. I don't think there is much rationality in it at all, except on the part of those in power who want conformity as part of their control strategy.Funnily enough we just had a thread about this and our ex-Muslim members were agreeing that the loyalty of a lot of Muslims to Islam is more tribal than religious.

http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=5173.0

[David B]

What I don't get is how an adult convert to Islam justifies this shit, even to himself/herself.

If the stuff were worth a pile of horseshit, you wouldn't have to threaten to kill people who stop believing it.

I've wondered this, particularly with reference to two of my favourite musicians, unrelated Thompsons, Danny and Richard.

Cat Stevens being one of my least favourite musicians.

Here is a bit of an interview with Richard from http://nightlight.typepad.com/nightlight/2007/09/publish-and-be-.html

Islam

The fact that you’re a Muslim interests people. Years ago you entered Islam, as many young Westerners do, through Sufism. Yet I’ve heard you’re no longer a Sufi?

I suppose I’m not. You could call me a ‘lapsed Sufi.’ But I still embrace the Sufic interpretation of Islam.

Among music fans, you’re probably the best-known Western Muslim around besides Cat Stevens/Yusuf Islam. Do you feel that gives you a certain responsibility?

I hate to be a spokesman for anything as broad as Islam. You can easily get yourself misinterpreted.

Yet, looking at you or your sometime bassist Danny Thompson (no relation), you don’t look like what many Westerners picture as Muslims. You look like guys you might have a beer with at the pub. Do you still describe yourself as a ‘liberal Muslim’?

Sure. A lot of what is seen as Islam in the West comes from the loudest shouting voices, the neo-Islamic fundamentalists. The willingness to fight, that violent side, is a misinterpretation and a misapplication of the teachings of the Prophet. It ignores the heart of Islam: peace, generosity, compassion. Islam is about winning hearts and minds.

There is no compulsion in Islam at all. That’s a fact.

Your songs aren’t exactly what people think of as ‘traditionally Muslim.’ “Don’t Tempt Me,” for example, is about a barfight. And you name weapons in it I’ve never heard of: “Lazy Susans,” “blockbusters” ...

My songs are observations about life, of course, and not necessarily autobiographical. But overall, the important thing is to represent who you are. If something is fundamentally true, then whatever I am, I was always that. I recognize that in other teachings, too. This is who I am, this is who I’ve always been.

You have to embody that and be honest about who you are. I’m a rock and roll musician. Whatever else I am, I’m that too. And my religion makes me a better musician, better able to navigate these shark-infested waters a musician must navigate to survive.

Just as (it seems to me) many Christians (Norrin a notable exception) tend to just not see the dark side of Christianity, converts to Islam tend to just not see the dark side.

David

[DMB]

I like this quote from Gibbon:

Many a sober Christian would rather admit that a wafer is God than that God is a cruel and capricious tyrant.

[Mung Dynasty]

That's fucking fantastic. I've never seen that one before.