I have a dilemma

[reddhedd]

I am an ex Jehovah's Witness. Although I bear no ill will towards those of my former belief, I know that associating with me would bring grave consequences to those who still practice the faith.

I am also a special needs bus driver. I have students who are medically fragile and require a monitor to sit in the back with them to watch for sudden medical emergencies.

I recently got a new monitor; she's really good with the kids, and I like her a lot. She told me Thursday that she is a JW...been one for 41 years, as are all of her 7 kids (I also work with her daughter).

She has kindly invited me to Kingdom Hall with her, and I politely declined....but I didn't tell her I am apostate.

Should I? Will she feel I've been misleading her if I say nothing and she finds out later (many JW women work for the school system).
Is it wrong to just let things go on for as long as they will? Or would it be more ethical to tell her what I am, knowing that she will likely request a transfer off my bus?

I understand that this is more her problem than mine...I have no issue with her, but she will with me. She's a great monitor, and we get along very well...I hate to lose that, both for myself and for my students.

[Free in Freeport]

No need to say anything. If it comes up later, simply say it's your policy not to discuss religion in your work place. Nobody can fault you for that.

[Free in Freeport]

p.s.

When someone invites me to their place of worship, I simply and firmly say "I'm not a believer."

[LoneWolf]

I didn't know that was their stance about apostates.

If you plan to keep your relationship a co-worker/co-worker on then you are under NO obligation, moral or otherwise, to tel her anything at all about your religious beliefs and history. NONE.

If, however, you wanted to develop a friendship with her outside the workplace I would tell her. You don't have to tell your friends everything but I also don't think it is fun to always have to lie to them either.

[DMB]

I am intrigued that her job is to watch for medical emergencies. Given her JW beliefs, could there be a conflict here?

[reddhedd]

No need to say anything. If it comes up later, simply say it's your policy not to discuss religion in your work place. Nobody can fault you for that.

JWs can, and will! If I'm apostate and don't tell one in the Truth, my only reasons can be that I want to be led back to the flock, or I want to trick the JW into being lead astray.

I didn't know that was their stance about apostates.

Yeah, there's always hope for an atheist, but none for me....After all, I KNOW the Truth, and willingly embrace the darkness anyway.:rolleyes:


If you plan to keep your relationship a co-worker/co-worker on then you are under NO obligation, moral or otherwise, to tel her anything at all about your religious beliefs and history. NONE.


When someone invites me to their place of worship, I simply and firmly say "I'm not a believer."



OK..this makes sense. I don't want a relationship outside of the bus.
And I do say that I'm not a believer when I'm asked if I go to church, or am I a xian...but although I work around JWs all the time, I haven't worked directly with one since I began my apostacy, so this hasn't come up.

I don't want to give fuel to the belief that apostates are evildoers with wickedness on their minds and hatred in their hearts....that's part of it, but part of it is that I don't want her to think I am a bad person. Crazy, eh?

I am intrigued that her job is to watch for medical emergencies. Given her JW beliefs, could there be a conflict here?
No, there shouldn't be. Her job is to watch for seizures, vomiting (sign of shunt failure) choking, trach or gastro tubes coming out, that sort of thing. We don't treat, other than basic CPR and First Aid...we call 911.

[tjakey]

It is none of their business what you are now. "Apostate" is just a word, another label, and (since there really is no god) it is a label without any real need to be used. In other words, what you are is none of their business.

[frazier]

It is none of their business what you are now. "Apostate" is just a word, another label, and (since there really is no god) it is a label without any real need to be used. In other words, what you are is none of their business.
Not only that, but what they think, or how they choose to interpret your actions, is none of your business. You are free from having to tailor your actions to suit their worldview.

[Daynna]

Ditto what Frazier said. I would say what the church believes about you is no longer your concern. It can't be easy being from that background and KNOWING how she will interpret it.

[halii]

holy shit, i'm going to start telling the JWs that keep coming to my parent's house that we are apostate. maybe they will stop visiting us once a month. ever since my brother invited one in after his team just won a huge game (that the JW expressed interest on when he heard the tv in the background) they have been showing up constantly. that was about 6 years ago and they haven't given up on us.

[reddhedd]

Halii-- Yes...announcing your apostacy will chase them off like nothing else!

tjakey--
My husband said pretty much the same thing...what I believe isn't her business.
And I like your twist on it, frazier; it shouldn't be my concern what she thinks or believes either.

Daynna,
No, it's not pleasant knowing that her high opinion of me will drop when she finds out, not because of any actions of mine, just because I have left her belief system.

I've been pondering this today, and I think I'll just come right out and tell her.
Because in her mind, I am placing her in real spiritual danger..I know it's not true, but her belief system tells her that, and I think it's wrong to place someone into a situation like that. Sort of like knowing my mom is deathly afraid of snakes, and putting a fake one in her garden. I know it poses no real danger, but she doesn't know that, and certainly won't appreciate that fact, or me. Or slipping real meat into a vegetarian's soup...this feels dishonest, not because I'm lying, but because she will perceive it as a major deception, as well as proof of my wickedness.:rolleyes:

...I'll say something like "I want you to know that I think you're a terrific monitor, and a real asset here. You need to know that I used to be a JW, but now am apostate. I hope you can continue to work with me, but I understand if you feel you can't."

Thank you all for the thoughtful and thought provoking replies.

[Laton]

Is there someone at your workplace you can discuss this with? Boss/HR?

If this is likely to be a big issue with her it may be best to give your higer-ups a bit of forewarning in case she creates a ruckus.

[Jobar]

It would appear from what you say that there's a good chance she would eventually find out anyway, if there are other JWs that know both of you, and are aware of your status.

Except for that chance, I would echo the others who have said it is no problem of yours, and as long as you kept mum about religion in general, you'd be doing her no real harm, whatever her opinion.

It speaks well of you that you're concerned about the matter; her superstitious fear is of course illusory, and associating with someone as ethical as you are couldn't possibly do her anything but good.

I don't see much difference between your situation, and that of a secular person of Jewish descent who works with someone they discover is a rabid anti-Semite, that isn't aware their co-worker is at least technically Jewish. IOW, it's *her* ethical stance that is at fault. You might point that out, in fact.

Halii, my method of getting rid of JWs and other door-to-door religion salesmen, is to tell them up front I've been a convinced atheist all my adult life. But, if they want to try to convince me, I will sit and listen to them for 30 minutes exactly (at the time of my choosing)- and then *they* have to listen to *me* for thirty minutes! So far, nary a one has taken me up on my offer; if it ever happens one does, I will be sure to write about it.

[Master Taran]

my method of getting rid of JWs and other door-to-door religion salesmen, is to tell them up front I've been a convinced atheist all my adult life.Here's my method. It's hanging on my front door.

NO
Solicitors

NO
Witnessing

NO
Proselytizing

And
No
Damn
Politics

[reddhedd]

Aw..thanks, Jobar! What nice things you say!:o

Perhaps it won't be a problem--maybe she will rise above the standard JW thinking and see that I am a decent person, and continue working with me.
But it's not fair to make that decision for her, ya know?

I will also talk to my boss tomorrow am, and let her know that there 'might" be an issue here. Not fair to have that leap at her without a heads- up.

[reddhedd]

Master Taran...I like it! I think I'll print one out for myself....

[Master Taran]

You go right ahead.:evil:

[Valheru]

I am intrigued that her job is to watch for medical emergencies. Given her JW beliefs, could there be a conflict here?

That is EXACTLY the first thing that went through my head as well. Argument from our ignorance, perhaps?

[Berthold]

They are not CS, after all ;). Applying a blood transfusion is probably not part of her routine, and that is the one thing where there would be a conflict.

[Tangiellis]

Don't tell her. My aunt is a JW. We have an agreement: religion is off limits in our discussions. That is the only way we can get along so well because none of that stuff comes up. I'm not a former JW, but I am a former Seventh Day Adventist. They have a similar mindset to what you describe. All I can say is that you left that belief system. It is no longer your concern to worry about the impact that will have on the other believers still within that fold. Besides, how do you know that exposing them to an outside view is necessarily a bad thing for them?

Not everyone holds close to their religion that way. I say this as someone who got a couple of Mormons who came to my home to have a tarot reading. :p

[Seeker630]

Daynna,

I've been pondering this today, and I think I'll just come right out and tell her.
Because in her mind, I am placing her in real spiritual danger..I know it's not true, but her belief system tells her that, and I think it's wrong to place someone into a situation like that.

...I'll say something like "I want you to know that I think you're a terrific monitor, and a real asset here. You need to know that I used to be a JW, but now am apostate. I hope you can continue to work with me, but I understand if you feel you can't."




redd you and I have met IRL once at Jobar's place. You are under NO OBLIGATION to tell this woman anything about your religious beliefs, or the complete lack thereof. It's none of her damned business. The most important issue here is not her beliefs-------it's the kids on that bus. If she does her job and keeps her bullshit beliefs out of it then fine. If not----that's when the problem begins.

But as for you-------I wouldn't kowtow to their beliefs -------why should you? What is the point? You are no longer a JW. Why do you continue to give her beliefs the high road? Why are you considering her beliefs over your own? Why would you give them any kind of priority?

[reddhedd]

Seeker,

Hi; I remember you. :)
You ask good questions. I'm trying to give words to a rather nebulous concept in my head, so please excuse if I am not clear, or am verbose...I'm still trying to articulate it to myself, much less anyone else.

I don't feel I am giving her beliefs the high road; only showing basic respect to someone I both work with and like.

Look, If I ate a dish that appeared vegetarian, and you knew I didn't eat meat and that there were animal products in that dish...well, no, you are under no obligation to tell me, other than common decency, but I sure wish you would. I can then choose to avoid that dish in order to conform to my personal beliefs. Doesn't mean that you, as a carnivore, are catering to my eating preferences, just displaying courtesy.

I expect of myself certain behaviors, and deceiving a nice old lady just doesn't fit with how I want to behave, or how I want to see myself.

I don't think I'm giving her beliefs priority, but it doesn't hurt me to consider hers, and I like to think I am giving her food for thought..perhaps I'm deluding myself. That's ok, too. You know the old saying "Be the change you want to see"? That's what I'm trying to do.

And you're right...how she does her job is an important thing. But how I perceive myself, knowing that I am deceiving her through non-disclosure of something she would find important...that will affect how I do my job.

Thank you for your input. You've helped me define this concept..not perfectly, but better than an hour ago!


Will you be at Jobar's this weekend?

[Seeker630]

Seeker,

Hi; I remember you. :)

Will you be at Jobar's this weekend?

No, sorry I can't make it this time. Because the following weekend I'll be driving up the old I-75 again past Jobar. My youngest daughter is getting married in Michigan on June 6th.

[Anne]

my method of getting rid of JWs and other door-to-door religion salesmen, is to tell them up front I've been a convinced atheist all my adult life.Here's my method. It's hanging on my front door.

NO
Solicitors

NO
Witnessing

NO
Proselytizing

And
No
Damn
Politics

Our friend's mom invited them in, made them coffee, and started her Amway spiel.

They never came back. :evil:

[Lisa0315]

I don't know why you would even bring it up. Your respect for her beliefs is very nice but I do not see why you would tell her. To me, it is encouraging her to engage in one of the worst and most negative aspects of her religion.

Question: If you met and fell in love with a JW, would you tell the person at the beginning of the relationship knowing that it will go nowhere, or would you allow the person to see who you are as a person first? Would you then encourage that person to leave JW's to be with you?

Why would a working relationship be any different?

Lisa

[Master Taran]

my method of getting rid of JWs and other door-to-door religion salesmen, is to tell them up front I've been a convinced atheist all my adult life.Here's my method. It's hanging on my front door.

NO
Solicitors

NO
Witnessing

NO
Proselytizing

And
No
Damn
Politics

Our friend's mom invited them in, made them coffee, and started her Amway spiel.

They never came back. :evil:I guess that would work also. :D

[reddhedd]

Lisa, You have an interesting perspective
What right do I have to decide for someone else what is important? I KNOW that she considers "x" to be morally dangerous; do you think it is ethical of me to withhold this info just because IMO "x" is not dangerous? Shouldn't she be accorded the rights of an adult and be allowed to gauge the risk for herself?

No I would not hold the info back from a potential love interest...neither would I fall in love so easily. I want to love and be loved honestly..and being an atheist and an ex jw is part of who I am. Seems like a "Gotcha" game to me.

[Garnet]

There are people I work with who consider a person who is pro-choice to be morally dangerous. Shall I go an announce that I am pro-choice to them?

redd, honestly, it's none of her business.

[Lisa0315]

Lisa, You have an interesting perspective
What right do I have to decide for someone else what is important? I KNOW that she considers "x" to be morally dangerous; do you think it is ethical of me to withhold this info just because IMO "x" is not dangerous? Shouldn't she be accorded the rights of an adult and be allowed to gauge the risk for herself?

No I would not hold the info back from a potential love interest...neither would I fall in love so easily. I want to love and be loved honestly..and being an atheist and an ex jw is part of who I am. Seems like a "Gotcha" game to me.

Well, I guess I am just a person who thinks that my beliefs are my business until the person has a vested interest. That was kind of the point I was trying to make. My analogy is far from perfect.

Lisa

[reddhedd]

Lisa, I get your point; I'm just trying to define how I see the situation.

Garnet, you're right. It's none of her business. I don't think I should do this for her, or because it's her "right" to know, but more for my own self-ease.

[Lisa0315]

Lisa, I get your point; I'm just trying to define how I see the situation.

Garnet, you're right. It's none of her business. I don't think I should do this for her, or because it's her "right" to know, but more for my own self-ease.

Oh, I understand. It is certainly your choice and if your conscience demands that you tell her, then, you definitely should. I think part of me would be tempted to tell her but not out of kindness or respect. More like I would want to make a point of how I was not a bad person or whatever.

I respect your desire to respect her. I guess I just wish people didn't have to make those kinds of choices, either you or her.

Lisa

[RBH]

I find it interesting that you still use the word "apostate" to describe yourself, or are you using it as she would? If the former, I'd think about another word, for example, "liberated." :)

[Garnet]

Garnet, you're right. It's none of her business. I don't think I should do this for her, or because it's her "right" to know, but more for my own self-ease.

I'm having trouble understanding that. Why would it ease your conscious? Your beliefs, or lack there of, won't cause her any harm. Why do you feel responsible?

I hope that doesnt come across as snarky. I have been reading the thread and I just don't get it. She's good at what she does, you're good at what you do. Why can't it be left at that?

I tend to stay far away from religious discussions in the workplace because of some bad experiences. Maybe this colors my perception of this situation.

[Danhalen]

What right do I have to decide for someone else what is important?The same right she has to your privacy.

I KNOW that she considers "x" to be morally dangerous; do you think it is ethical of me to withhold this info just because IMO "x" is not dangerous?I think it is morally praiseworthy for you to give her the opportunity to critically evaluate her belief that X is morally dangerous. She is learning that you (Y) are morally beneficial (otherwise she would not have invited you to her Hall). You could let her know that X = Y and then see if she takes the morally praiseworthy action by acknowledging her prior belief about X is not true, but is it moral for you to cause her the distress of having conflicting emotions concerning X and Y? It is possible you could cause her harm by letting her know the truth, and you are directly responsible for sharing that information. I would say withholding the information is morally permissible and praiseworthy.

Shouldn't she be accorded the rights of an adult and be allowed to gauge the risk for herself?Are you not already letting her gauge the risk by your association with her? She has already assessed that Y is at least morally benign. She is simply unaware that X = Y. You should only afford her the rights of an adult if she holds her beliefs in an adult-like manner. That is, you are only morally obligated to treat her like an adult if she is able to accept new information and adjust her beliefs accordingly. Only children believe in the monster under the bed after they have been shown there is nothing there.

[reddhedd]

Hmm. not sure of ready and easy answers here. A common theme(s) I'm finding, though, is A) it's none of her business, and B) I shouldn't feel the need to concern myself with her feelings.

All I can say is, why shouldn't I concern myself? Do I really need to live "up" to the atheist stereotype of one who cares little for others?
IMO, no. Just because I am not a JW doesn't mean I have abandoned caring for others.
She's a nice old lady who would/will feel hurt and betrayed, and justified in her attitude towards those who leave the faith, and nothing productive or positive would result.
It would be different, IMO, if there was little chance she would find out. However,
it's only a matter of time. She hasn't been with me long, and belongs to a different congregation, but many JWs work here. I'm actually surprised she hasn't found out already.

perhaps I am poorly explaining this. I'm certainly not completely clear myself; I only know that not telling her is not sitting right with me.

[Garnet]

Well, I think that being concerned for another's feelings is part of being human and compassionate. So, I am concerned for my co-worker's feelings to the extent that I try not to do things that are hurtful or mean. I treat them as professionals, in essense, how I would like to be treated. Some of my co-workers I also consider to be my friends so I may care a little more about how they are feeling or what is going on in their lives. There are a couple of people I work with that I share a lot with and they share a lot with me.

But where I fall off the tater wagon is with knowing that something in my belief set would be horribly offensive to someone so much so that they would change jobs encumbers me to tell them that very offensive thing. Why this need for confession? Who is really absolved in the situation? You? Her? I'm thinking it will only cause unnecessary pain for both of you.

Suppose for a moment that she has already found out and it is precisely why she mentioned her faith to you. And if she does find out and walks away from you because of it, how in the world can you carry any blame for that? Either way, hurt happens.

I can only guess that you feel, because you understand her faith, that not telling her is somehow lying. Or maybe it's deep down indocrtination still? Maybe it's a feeling of "well, she's going to find out anyway some I might as well have done with it." I dunno.

In the end, though, you'll make the decision that is the best for you. In that, I have faith. :)

[Danhalen]

I think there are some things that are more harmful to share than to keep. I honestly believe your telling her could cause her more pain than her finding out on her own.