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coberst
22 May 2009, 05:26 PM
Have you met Mr. Straw Man?

Quickie from Wiki: “A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting a superficially similar proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

The straw man fallacy is an often used fallacy in the United States because American citizens have a low level of intellectual sophistication.

One recent use of this fallacy is that Guantanamo detainees are terrorists and thus too dangerous for detention on American soil.

Obviously American prisons contain many bad guys from whom the public must be protected. Also most of these bad guys are released while still alive. Also records indicate that that many of these released become recidivists.

The FBI scares us by saying that these terrorists represent a different kind of detention problem.

The “Fallacy Files” web site {http://www.fallacyfiles.org/} provides an important introduction to both formal and informal fallacies. I think their work on informal fallacies being the most important for our needs today. It is the informal fallacies that we must learn to recognize.

The early settlers had to learn the sign and behavior of the wolf and bear but it is the informal fallacy that today’s citizen must learn. When not recognized the manipulative sophistication of those who wish to control our society will cause us similar damage.

Those members of our early American settlers were required to understand many things about their natural habitation in order to survive. These early frontier settlers had primarily natural conditions that threatened their existence. They worried about and learned to understand the signs of the wolf and the bear also the clouds and the weather in general. Their survival depended upon it.

Today our well being, if not our very survival, depends upon our ability to understand the society we live in and the fellow citizens that occupy our space with us. Our needs for understanding our environment especially that part of it that contains fellow citizens has become acute because our fellows have become expert at manipulating our environment. If we do not understand how these things are being manipulated we are the losers.

Many of us who were first introduced to the concept ‘fallacy’ when we took a college course on ‘Logic’ found the matter to be boring. It appears, from what I hear, that many students took away from those classes distaste for everything related to the concepts of ‘logic’ and the associated ‘fallacies’. That is unfortunate and is perhaps an indication of why it is so important for all individuals to become self-actualizing self-learners after their school daze is over.

This wonderful phrase “the ubiquity of ambiguity” I found on a web site that I think all individuals who understand the importance of CT (Critical Thinking) might wish to visit.
http://www.fallacyfiles.org/ambiguit.html

What I am trying to say is that the folks living in the early days had to know the habits of the wolf and the bear to survive. Today we have to know the habits of those who wish to manipulate us by using logical fallacies.

MrFungus420
23 May 2009, 09:12 AM
Hey!

More pseudo-philosophical garbage from the master...

Hevvin Machine
25 May 2009, 03:58 AM
Hey!

More pseudo-philosophical garbage from the master...

The straw man fallacy is an often used fallacy in the United States because American citizens have a low level of intellectual sophistication. Well, since you and I are both American citizens it is obvious why we think Coberst is uninteresting, isn't it?
Hev

Free in Freeport
25 May 2009, 04:10 AM
Way to engage someone in a discussion: Start out by insulting their intellect.

coberst
25 May 2009, 05:36 AM
Way to engage someone in a discussion: Start out by insulting their intellect.

Good example of the straw man fallacy.

MrFungus420
25 May 2009, 07:55 AM
HOLY SH--crap...

Coberst actually responded to a post. :eek:

And it was RELEVENT to that post!!!!!
(even though he was wrong...it was an ad hominem, not a strawman)

Notta
25 May 2009, 04:35 PM
Eh, what can you say? It's a holiday, so maybe Coberst was giving us a holiday present by responding......

Mr. Straw Man, let me introduce you to Mr. Burning Man.

It's just about as relevant, and it has two of the same words!!!

DMB
26 May 2009, 05:23 AM
Coberst, I think you will find that most people here are aware of basic logic and of the most common lagical fallacies.

coberst
26 May 2009, 10:24 AM
Coberst, I think you will find that most people here are aware of basic logic and of the most common lagical fallacies.


That is great, extroridinary, but great, if you are correct.

Have most of the members of this forum studied Logic 101 in college?

DMB
26 May 2009, 11:33 AM
Coberst, I think you will find that most people here are aware of basic logic and of the most common lagical fallacies.


That is great, extroridinary, but great, if you are correct.

Have most of the members of this forum studied Logic 101 in college?

I really wouldn't know. In any case, there are other ways of studying it. I did while I was still at school. My coment was based on deduction from the normal standard of discourse here.

Daynna
26 May 2009, 03:54 PM
Is that YOU Anon Y. Mous?

Couldn't be. You didn't call us talking monkeys even once.

coberst
26 May 2009, 04:39 PM
Coberst, I think you will find that most people here are aware of basic logic and of the most common lagical fallacies.


That is great, extroridinary, but great, if you are correct.

Have most of the members of this forum studied Logic 101 in college?

I really wouldn't know. In any case, there are other ways of studying it. I did while I was still at school. My coment was based on deduction from the normal standard of discourse here.


In the last five years I have posted on many tens of forums and I must say that I would not draw that conclusion for any forum based upon all of that experience. I suspect that you are a very generous grader.

Of course I am not aware of any high school teaching such things as Logic 101 and perhaps you are. Also I do not think that one can learn such things via social osmosis.

David B
26 May 2009, 05:34 PM
Is that YOU Anon Y. Mous?

Couldn't be. You didn't call us talking monkeys even once.


Actually, I came across him on IIDB/FR a couple of years ago. We had a little email interaction then, but he stopped when he realised that I wasn't buying.

He was banned shortly after.

David

Worldtraveller
26 May 2009, 07:19 PM
Way to engage someone in a discussion: Start out by insulting their intellect.

Good example of the straw man fallacy.

Actually, that's more of an ad hominen or red herring (poisoning the well, possibly), but not a strawman.

Funnily enough, your characterization of the insult as a strawman is closer to an actual example of a strawman fallacy. *irony meters explode all over*

Notta
26 May 2009, 07:55 PM
Way to engage someone in a discussion: Start out by insulting their intellect.

Good example of the straw man fallacy.

Actually, that's more of an ad hominen or red herring (poisoning the well, possibly), but not a strawman.

Funnily enough, your characterization of the insult as a strawman is closer to an actual example of a strawman fallacy. *irony meters explode all over*WT, you need to get the meter that goes to 11.

DMB
26 May 2009, 08:55 PM
Coberst, I think you will find that most people here are aware of basic logic and of the most common lagical fallacies.


That is great, extroridinary, but great, if you are correct.

Have most of the members of this forum studied Logic 101 in college?

I really wouldn't know. In any case, there are other ways of studying it. I did while I was still at school. My coment was based on deduction from the normal standard of discourse here.


In the last five years I have posted on many tens of forums and I must say that I would not draw that conclusion for any forum based upon all of that experience. I suspect that you are a very generous grader.

Of course I am not aware of any high school teaching such things as Logic 101 and perhaps you are. Also I do not think that one can learn such things via social osmosis.

I didn't go to high school. Not everyone here is American and a lot of things are studied at school in Europe and elsewhere that don't necessarily get done in American high schools, although they may be done in private schools in America. Any school anywhere that teaches for the International Baccalaureate (http://www.ibo.org/) has to teach Theory of Knowledge (http://www.ibo.org/diploma/curriculum/core/knowledge/), for example.

It seems to me, coberst, that you are rather fond of stating the obvious and not necessarily paying full attention to the replies. There are plenty of places on the internet where logical fallacies are explained. It isn't necessary to follow a college course to learn this sort of thing. And anyone can buy a book and read it. It is a well-known method of gaining information.

dancer_rnb
26 May 2009, 09:05 PM
Coberst, I think you will find that most people here are aware of basic logic and of the most common lagical fallacies.


That is great, extroridinary, but great, if you are correct.

Have most of the members of this forum studied Logic 101 in college?

I really wouldn't know. In any case, there are other ways of studying it. I did while I was still at school. My coment was based on deduction from the normal standard of discourse here.


In the last five years I have posted on many tens of forums and I must say that I would not draw that conclusion for any forum based upon all of that experience. I suspect that you are a very generous grader.

Of course I am not aware of any high school teaching such things as Logic 101 and perhaps you are. Also I do not think that one can learn such things via social osmosis.

Taking logic 101 in college is no guarantee you'll understand the material or be able to apply it in real life. Non sequiter?

David B
26 May 2009, 09:40 PM
As an aside, Coberst, there seem to be a load of posts in other threads you started which take issue with your positions, and to which you have failed to give the courtesy of a reply.

This thread, for example.

http://secularcafe.org/showthread.php?t=1663&page=2

Perhaps you would find people more amenable to your posts if you responded to their posts in other threads which you started, rather than starting new ones and ignoring the old ones.

I doubt that there is a politeness 101 course in American schools and/or colleges, but, even in the absence of such a course, most people manage to grasp the idea that making lots of OPs, and leaving them hanging when they are challenged, is not a good way of making friends and influencing people.

David

MrFungus420
26 May 2009, 10:42 PM
As an aside, Coberst, there seem to be a load of posts in other threads you started which take issue with your positions, and to which you have failed to give the courtesy of a reply.

This thread, for example.

http://secularcafe.org/showthread.php?t=1663&page=2

Perhaps you would find people more amenable to your posts if you responded to their posts in other threads which you started, rather than starting new ones and ignoring the old ones.

I doubt that there is a politeness 101 course in American schools and/or colleges, but, even in the absence of such a course, most people manage to grasp the idea that making lots of OPs, and leaving them hanging when they are challenged, is not a good way of making friends and influencing people.

David

That seems to be coberst's MO. Start a thread by pasting the same poorly worded, pseudo-philosophical garbage on dozen's of discussion boards, and then ignore most of the threads that he has started.

I am finding this thread (on this board) amazing. Not only has coberst managed some replies in this thread, but they are even related to posts in this thread.