Patient dies after alternative treatment

[David B]

In Ireland a couple of weeks ago.

The inquest was over-kind to the practioner, I think.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/courts/man-died-an-hour-after-being-treated-for-peanut-allergy-1719832.html

Dublin Coroner's Court yesterday heard that Thomas Schatten (43), of Marina Village, Malahide, Co Dublin, collapsed and died in the living room of his home on the evening of May 18, 2005.

He had earlier been treated for the peanut allergy by kinesiologist Dr Brett Stevens, who told the inquest that Mr Schatten ate a small bit of peanut during his appointment, to which he had no reaction.

The allergy elimination technique used by Dr Stevens, who is also a chiropractor, is called NAET and involves "muscle testing"....

...He left the clinic at 5.20pm. Dr Stevens told the court he didn't think Mr Schatten was having an anaphylactic reaction. He said he was aware that he had suffered a reaction to peanuts when he was young and avoided them prior to beginning the treatment.

About 15 minutes later, Dr Stevens rang Mr Schatten to make sure he was all right. Mr Schatten could only say the words "breathing" and "ambulance".

Words fail

David

[Anne]

Because medical doctors don't make mistakes as well.

In the US, you are more likely to die due to a blunder in surgery than you are in a car accident.

I'm not arguing for alternative medicine, I'm arguing against using anecdotal evidence as evidence, because it is weak and can be turned against you.

[David B]

Because medical doctors don't make mistakes as well.

In the US, you are more likely to die due to a blunder in surgery than you are in a car accident.

I'm not arguing for alternative medicine, I'm arguing against using anecdotal evidence as evidence, because it is weak and can be turned against you.

My bold. Figures and sources, please.

David (sees a report of an inquest as a bit more than run of the mill anecdotal evidence)

[Anne]

recent NYer article about medicare costs. Not at my fingertips. It was in context of over operating putting patients at increased risks, since surgery is risky. Just not for the surgeon.

I see the report of an inquest held up as 'problems with alternative medicine' as a bit inane. There are problems with all medicines, and all doctors.

[David B]

recent NYer article about medicare costs. Not at my fingertips. It was in context of over operating putting patients at increased risks, since surgery is risky. Just not for the surgeon.

I see the report of an inquest held up as 'problems with alternative medicine' as a bit inane. There are problems with all medicines, and all doctors.

There are more problems, I suggest, with 'treating' life threatening conditions with kinesiology. Because it is quackery at it's worst, with not a hope of diagnosing or curing anything.

http://www.ncahf.org/articles/a-b/ak.html

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/Tests/ak.html

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/ideomotor.html

David

[Ray Moscow]

recent NYer article about medicare costs. Not at my fingertips. It was in context of over operating putting patients at increased risks, since surgery is risky. Just not for the surgeon.

I see the report of an inquest held up as 'problems with alternative medicine' as a bit inane. There are problems with all medicines, and all doctors.

Isn't it analogous to a chiropodist trying to treat someone with serious heart disease instead of referring the patient to the ER or a cardiologist?

Except that the chiropodist didn't actually even use chiropody (a valid set of treatments, but not for heart disease) but just relied on, say, ear candles instead?

Wouldn't we say, "WTF was this quack trying to treat heart disease with ear candles?!!!"

[Anne]

oh, we could say that, but the title of this thread (and others like it) bothers me.

A great deal of alternative medicine is not harmful and does nothing worse than separating a fool form his money. I could start a series of threads where mainstream medicine is held in a poor light, showing doctors destroying patients lives through stupidity or clumsiness or arrogance.

I could even use examples from my own life.

IMO, harping on things like this, while they may be 'fun', are not helpful in getting information out there.

[Febble]

And in related news:

http://www.talkrational.org/showthread.php?t=16332

[Febble]

Quack medicine is dangerous. Nothing that works isn't, and things that don't work, can be.

[Febble]

And: http://layscience.net/node/593

[dancer_rnb]

I have to say this doesn't seem much different from treating diabetes with prayer.

[Christina]

And: http://layscience.net/node/593

It doesn't get much better than that. To say that it serves them right doesn't begin to capture how funny it is as well.

[David B]

I have to say this doesn't seem much different from treating diabetes with prayer.

Indeed!

David

[Monad]

recent NYer article about medicare costs. Not at my fingertips. It was in context of over operating putting patients at increased risks, since surgery is risky. Just not for the surgeon.

I see the report of an inquest held up as 'problems with alternative medicine' as a bit inane. There are problems with all medicines, and all doctors.

There are more problems, I suggest, with 'treating' life threatening conditions with kinesiology. Because it is quackery at it's worst, with not a hope of diagnosing or curing anything.

Kinesiology is the science of human movement - how the fuck this term got hijacked by some quack I don't know but it has nothing to do with Kinesiology which is an established scientific discipline - not a treatment (although it informs several medical therapies including physio and occupational therapy)

[Ray Moscow]

Kinesiology is the science of human movement - how the fuck this term got hijacked by some quack I don't know but it has nothing to do with Kinesiology which is an established scientific discipline - not a treatment (although it informs several medical therapies including physio and occupational therapy)

You got me.

I had an acquaintance who taught the real subject at university. I was appalled to see how these yahoos managed to steal the name for this ridiculous stuff.

[Matty]

Because medical doctors don't make mistakes as well.


big difference being, when medicien works, it works. Alternative medicine extremely rarely to never, actually works, and pretty much always never according to the claimed mechanism.

the point being that this treatment was NEVER going to do a thing.


In the US, you are more likely to die due to a blunder in surgery than you are in a car accident.
I'd like to see some stats for that.

I'm not arguing for alternative medicine, I'm arguing against using anecdotal evidence as evidence, because it is weak and can be turned against you.For sure, however this isnt anecdotal evidecne is it. According to the official report this guy went into peanut sensitised anaphylactic shock shortly after being given a piece of peanut by said quack, in an attempt to cure his peanut allergy using woo methods.

He said he believed the death was accidental and Dr Stevens was attempting to alleviate the allergy using the methods he used. A file went to the DPP in relation to the death.

See this pisses me off. Why the fuck isnt that supposed health professional not arrested and looking at a charge of wilful negligence or serious malpractice. Fuck, if it were my way he'd cop a manslaughter charge.

Coroner Brian Farrell recorded a verdict of death by misadventure and called for the re-evaluation of the NAET allergy elimination technique in relation to peanut allergies.

"Nut allergy is a particular situation. All the clinicians I spoke to said assessment of nut allergy needs to be dealt with guardedly," he said. "This is the second inquest in the coroner's court in the last three months where a person has died of peanut allergy. It emphasises the seriousness of peanut allergy."It also emphasises the seriousness of seeking actual medical help rather than quackery.

[Monad]

Kinesiology is the science of human movement - how the fuck this term got hijacked by some quack I don't know but it has nothing to do with Kinesiology which is an established scientific discipline - not a treatment (although it informs several medical therapies including physio and occupational therapy)

You got me.

I had an acquaintance who taught the real subject at university.

So do I (in applied, not pure science form, that is - I teach Physiotherapy and OT students and Health sciences generally).

So what's this alternative version then?

[David B]

Kinesiology is the science of human movement - how the fuck this term got hijacked by some quack I don't know but it has nothing to do with Kinesiology which is an established scientific discipline - not a treatment (although it informs several medical therapies including physio and occupational therapy)

You got me.

I had an acquaintance who taught the real subject at university.

So do I.

So what's this alternative version then?

See the skepdic link in this thread

David

[Ray Moscow]

So what's this alternative version then?

Applied kinesiology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applied_kinesiology)

This article is too kind.

[Monad]

Well the "applied" bit is a misnomer too - what I teach is applied - i.e. the application of kinesiological science to therapeutic practice - that's basically a big part of what any physiotherapist does (as well as informing some OT practice depending on the specialism).

[MrFungus420]

I see the report of an inquest held up as 'problems with alternative medicine' as a bit inane. There are problems with all medicines, and all doctors.

Except that "alternative medicine" is NOT medicine and it's practitioners are frauds and liars, not doctors.

[Ray Moscow]

What I find especially sad is that the practitioners apparently believe all this crap, without adequate (or sometimes, any) evidence to support it. Yet they sell it to the public to put them off evidence-based treatments.

[David B]

Soddit, I thought I'd posted a skepdic link, but what I actually did was post links from the skepdic entry.

http://www.skepdic.com/akinesiology.html

David

[Vill]

I actually went and experienced "Applied Kinesiology" first hand earlier this year - my wife basically dared me to do it, since a friend of hers was raving about how it cured her allergy to shellfish ( and this friend had noticed how I'm allergic to horses in a big way...)
Anyway, since my memory of the specifics is kinda cloudy now after a few months, I've quoted a part of an email I sent to my sister after doing my one and only session with this Kinesiologist - needless to say, I never returned for my second appointment... :D

Seriously though - let me try and run thru what happened as I recall... I get there, and introduce myself - she lives in this really fancy place near the airport, with stables etc - a couple of minutes of (brief) dialogue about what she does, and why I'm there - she tells me she does 'Energy work', her professional background was physio, but she doesn't think it (physio) goes far enough with people, they come in 3x a week, do their exercises and go again, and never get better.

She then shows me this 'triangle' diagram, and tells me something like this:

"The three sides of the triangle are labeled structural, chemical and mental. These represent the three major areas of imbalance that create symptoms in a person."

There's more, but that's the gist of what she said, and how we'd be dealing with the structural and chemical sides - not the emotional, because she said that by sorting out the 2 sides , the third would fall into place on its' own...

By this point, there's a couple of alarm bells going off in my head, but I figured in for a penny, in for a pound... the discussion only briefly touches on what's prompted me to visit her in the first place, so I talk about my allergies, how I had that bad reaction to the horses, the fact that I've has asthma all my life, but it's not really a factor in the allergies in this case. she asks me whether I've got any allergic issues with food of any type or other things like flowers, grass, and I tell her 'not to my knowledge' concerning the food, and certain flowers have a small reaction, but not all... and that's it - no great discussion of my symptoms, no in depth questioning about which animals set me off... or any other questions I would have thought pertinent... Then she comes out with the disclaimer: this may not work because I might have these allergies for a reason (??? - as in, a health problem 'reason', or as in an 'it's meant to be' type reason...?)

Anyway - the 'treatment' - in her office just off her living room - she pulls out one of those foldaway masseuse tables, with the hole at one end for the face when lying face down - tells me to remove as many clothes as I feel comfortable taking off, or not - it doesn't matter for this to work apparently (which begs the obvious question: why ask me in the first place?) - shoes are off in any case since we're inside her house, so I stay fully clothed and climb on the table.

So - this is where things get a little more hazy, because it all happened so fast (perhaps by design, I think...) - she shows me this ring binder she's got full of sheets and notes (she actually waves it in front of my face like a magician with a handkerchief before he pulls a dove out of it) and tells me she's going to go thru part of the treatment / energy work on this visit, but not to expect her to get on to anything dealing with the immune system yet because that'll be next time.

She then starts by doing a "muscle test" on my right arm - I'm lying on my back on the table - she gets me to lift up my right arm (straightened, not bent at the elbow), and pushes down on my arm at the wrist and asks me to resist her push. So I do that, then she repeats the procedure but says a word ('horses', I think - might have been 'allergies', I can't remember) this time, and when she pushes, lo and behold, my arm seems weaker - this is apparently indicative of a problem - the fact that each time she pushes, she uses different strengths to push, slightly different durations each time, sometimes saying a word, sometimes not - one time asking me to resist and relax at the same time, and when (of course) my arm sagged under her push, she tried to show that was a big deal - I pointed out what she'd just said to me, and how it was confusing ("do you want me to resist, or relax?") - I think this was the point at which she got the sense that I perhaps wasn't going to be completely naive about what was going on.

Now, at the same time, but in between all these muscle tests (on both arms and legs), she's touching / prodding / poking / rubbing various specific points all over my body - wrists and ankles, various spots on my ribcage, my neck, head, groin , butt - I presume these are focus points for acupuncture / pressure, or i-ching or whatever (but this is never explained to me) - all the while saying these points correspond to various parts of my body (eg - a point on my rib cage just below my left armpit is my 'left spleen' - a point just under my rib cage on the right side is my 'liver under 10th rib' or something equally esoteric -- as I said, memory isn't perfect, so specific names may be incorrect - but you get the idea...)

Anyway this goes on for a while, me lying on my back, or stomach - one movement had me sitting up, but I "had to keep my eyes closed for it to work"... apparently...
As I said before, I think when I reminded her she'd given me conflicting instructions, she realised I wasn't really there of my own volition, but at the behest of others - and from then on, I got a sort of half hearted treatment.... she'd said it would take about an hour, but we were done in half an hour, with her telling me I had some unusual things about me (either that or I was wanting to get out of there 'real bad', apparently - which actually wasn't true at all, I agreed to go in the first place because I wanted to experience some of this stuff first hand instead of reading about it, so I was happy to be there) I do get the additional impression however, that I was supposed to be giving some sort of verbal feedback, based on her cues and what she was doing - but I was rather quiet throughout the thing, so perhaps that was it...

Anyway, I gave her her 75 bucks and thanked her for her time and left (oh, almost forgot - she told me I might find some "toxins" coming out of me over the next few days - in the usual manner apparently, with a BM or coughing or whatever... I've often wondered what the hell these 'toxins' actually are when people use the word in conversation like that - if I'm taking a poo, surely there's nothing BUT bloody toxins coming out of me!!) - she's pencilled me in for another visit in 10 days (and she came to that conclusion by testing one of my legs while saying "1 week" then "2 weeks" then "5 days", "10 days" - guess my leg was weakest when she said "10 days" ) - I'm actually tempted to go to see whether things will be any different, or whether I'll get the hard sell for some pyramid scheme or something... but we'll see...

[David B]

I wonder if the alleged allergy to shellfish might not have been a bit of food poisoning as a result of eating a mussel or something that had died too long before cooking.

Because there is no way I can see that that sort of bunk could cure a genuine allergy, as the dead bloke found out.

David

[Matty]

"The three sides of the triangle are labeled structural, chemical and mental. These represent the three major areas of imbalance that create symptoms in a person."

I've heard of this therapy: Structural always beats Chemical, Chemical always beats Mental, and Metal always beats Structural. The person to be cured counts to three, whilst pumping their fist............


:D Sounds like they were top heavy on the Mental bit of things to me.

[Pendaric]

To quote the inimitable Mr Tim Minchin:

http://podblack.com/?p=1141

“Pharmaceutical companies are the enemy
They promote drug dependency
At the cost of the natural remedies
That are all our bodies need
They are immoral and driven by greed.
Why take drugs
When herbs can solve it?
Why use chemicals
When homeopathic solvents
Can resolve it?
It’s time we all return-to-live
With natural medical alternatives.”

And try as hard as I like,
A small crack appears
In my diplomacy-dike.
“By definition”, I begin
“Alternative Medicine”, I continue
“Has either not been proved to work,
Or been proved not to work.
You know what they call “alternative medicine”
That’s been proved to work?
Medicine.”

“So you don’t believe
In ANY Natural remedies?”

“On the contrary actually:
Before we came to tea,
I took a natural remedy
Derived from the bark of a willow tree
A painkiller that’s virtually side-effect free
It’s got a weird name,
Darling, what was it again?
Masprin?
Basprin?
Asprin!
Which I paid about a buck for
Down at my local drugstore.

“Hm that’s a good point, let me think for a bit
Oh wait, my mistake, it’s absolute bullshit.
Science adjusts it’s beliefs based on what’s observed
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved.
If you show me
That, say, homeopathy works,
Then I will change my mind
I’ll spin on a fucking dime
I’ll be embarrassed as hell,
But I will run through the streets yelling
It’s a miracle! Take physics and bin it!
Water has memory!
And while it’s memory of a long lost drop of onion juice is Infinite
It somehow forgets all the poo it’s had in it!

You show me that it works and how it works
And when I’ve recovered from the shock
I will take a compass and carve Fancy That on the side of my cock.”

[ofro]

"The three sides of the triangle are labeled structural, chemical and mental. These represent the three major areas of imbalance that create symptoms in a person."

I've heard of this therapy: Structural always beats Chemical, Chemical always beats Mental, and Metal always beats Structural. The person to be cured counts to three, whilst pumping their fist............


:D Sounds like they were top heavy on the Mental bit of things to me.

Sounds like "Rock - Paper - Scissors" to me. I bet that works just as well against allergies.

[Ray Moscow]

Good summary of recent alternative medicine developments on Bad Astronomy:

What a week for alt-med smackdowns (http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/06/16/what-a-week-for-alt-med-smackdowns/)

[Matty]

The Australian government has ruled that Arnica Montana, a homeopathy company, falsely advertised the efficacy of its product — which, in the case of homeopathy is everything they advertise — and they had to post a humiliating retraction. I weep non-diluted tears for them

hehe. nice.

and well done Australia.

[His Noodly Appendage]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31388177/ns/health-cold_and_flu/