Just another honour killing

[DMB]

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/1046357/Man's-jail-term-cut-for-'honour'-killing

A court on Tuesday halved the jail term of a 29-year-old Jordanian man who shot dead his raped sister 12 times "in the name of honour", a judicial official said.

The criminal court initially sentenced the man to 15 years with hard labour for killing his sister in 2008 in Mowaqqar, southeast of the capital Amman, but immediately reduced it to seven-and-a-half years...

...Between 15 and 20 women are murdered each year in Jordan in the name of "honour". Last year, around 17 such killings were recorded.

Parliament has refused to reform the penal code to ensure harsher penalties.

In the end he got seven-and-a half years, and the family honour that had been besmirched by the rape of his sister was restored once she was killed.

So that's all right, then.

[Worldtraveller]

Well, to be fair to the 'justice' system, it's very similar in the US. The thought process seems to work on the assumption that there is no real point in jailing the person who does something like this to a family member because they are unlikely to be a danger to the geneal population.

Kinda stupid, but it's not limited to the cases of honor killing.

[Anne]

mother fuck.

[tjakey]

Every time I say this someone gets pissed, but I'm going to say it anyway. Islam sucks, and anyone who follows that religion by choice is a bit of a fuck-wad.

[Anne]

Is it Islam or misogyny?

I mean, you're not wrong--- but is Islam what cause this?

eta: As a pagan, I am loathe to admit that the misogyny of Islam is apparently more due to the paganism of the Arabic culture than to Muhammad. It was a brutal culture before Islam came onto the scene, and Islam supposedly helped to free women from that tyranny.

But apparently most of the non Koranic things we all hate about the religion are vestiges of Allah the Moon God not Allah the One God.

meaning (tl/dr) it's the culture not the religion that allows it.

[dancer_rnb]

How do the Christians from the same cultures deal with women?
I wouldn't be surprised to find that these ideas came from the earlier
Christian cultures.

[Anne]

I'm not sure how modern Christians from that region treat their women--- probably more like equals (since Christians in that region IIRC are persecuted) but that area was not Christian prior to Islam--- it was pagan. There were some Christians --- apparently (wiki) gnostics, and Jews, but mostly pagan.

Not enough is known about the pre Islamic religions to say for sure, but things like the burka are not Koranic, and predate Islam. I will go so far as to say it's paganism's fault.

Desert gods tend to be bloodthirsty and bitter (you know all about Yahweh, after all), so it wouldn't surprise me in the least that Yahweh and Allah are really 'brothers' (the region had gods for each tribe) and both were bitter nasty cruel old men, as pagan deities...

<shrug> Ok, my mea culpa is over. It isn't 'paganism' at fault here--- it's those particular gods/cultures tghat created/worshipped them. It's the modern monotheistic versions are at fault, IMO.

[Anne]

hey! Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_Arab_societies#Arab_women_before_Islam)is good for something!

In pre-Islamic Arabia, women's status varied widely according to laws and cultural norms of the tribes in which they lived. In the prosperous southern region of the Arabian Peninsula, for example, the religious edicts of Christianity, Judaism and Zoroastrianism held sway among the Sabians and Himyarites. In other places such as the city of Makkah (Mecca) -- where the prophet of Islam, Muhammad, was born—a tribal set of rights was in place. This was also true amongst the Bedouin (desert dwellers), and this code varied from tribe to tribe. Thus there was no single definition of the roles played, and rights held, by women prior to the advent of Islam.

It is generally accepted that Islam changed the structure of Arab society and to a large degree unified the people, reforming and standardizing gender roles throughout the region. According to Islamic studies professor William Montgomery Watt, Islam improved the status of women by "instituting rights of property ownership, inheritance, education and divorce."[11] Some writers, however, disagree.[12]

The Qur'an rejected the traditional and cultural practice of killing unwanted female children soon after birth. As it appears in (Qur'an 16:58-59),the religious message states: " "when news is brought to one of them, of (the birth of) a female (child), his face darkens, and he is filled with inward grief. With shame he hides himself from his people, because of the bad news he has had! shall he retain it (his face) (sufferance and) contempt, or bury it in the dust? Ah! what an evil (choice) they decide on!" The Prophet of Islam said that "one to whom a daughter is born and who does not bury her alive, does not humiliate her not prefer a son to a daughter, will be sent to Paradise".[13] Another tradition of Muhammad makes hell fire prohibited to he who undergoes trials and tribulations due to a daughter and yet does not hate her and behaves well towards her.[14]

William Montgomery Watt states that Muhammad, in the historical context of his time, can be seen as a figure who testified on behalf of women’s rights and improved things considerably. Watt explains: "At the time Islam began, the conditions of women were terrible - they had no right to own property, were supposed to be the property of the man, and if the man died everything went to his sons." Muhammad, however, by "instituting rights of property ownership, inheritance, education and divorce, gave women certain basic safeguards."[21] Haddad and Esposito state that "Muhammad granted women rights and privileges in the sphere of family life, marriage, education, and economic endeavors, rights that help improve women's status in society."[22]

Veiling did not exist in early Arabia, but Mohammed admonished women to cover themselves modestly, and his own wives were veiled in public. Mohammed's wives set the example, and gradually the veil became a sign of prestige. In some countries, like Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Jordan, Syria and Egypt, the veil is not mandatory.

hurm--- I was under the impression veiling was pagan...

[dancer_rnb]

I was under the impression that secluding women came from the Byzantines.

[DMB]

I thought Allah was originally a moon goddess.

[Anne]

If so, I think that's been lost. Allah has been male as long as we can tell.

Not that history in that area is too clear.

ok, in both Egypt and Mesopotamia the lunar deity was male--- I'm going to guess that making Allah female is a womyn-centered modern retrofit.

I'm not an expert on female seclusion, but I thought it was tribal over religious.

I'm going to page Hex...

[Anne]

The first recorded instance of veiling for women is recorded in an Assyrian legal text from the 13th century BCE, which restricted its use to noble women and forbade prostitutes and common women from adopting it. Greek texts have also spoken of veiling and seclusion of women being practiced among the Persian elite. Statues from Persepolis depict women both veiled and unveiled, and it seems to be regarded as an attribute of higher status.

Looks like according to *this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veil)* wiki page, veiling was a Persian pre-Islam (thus pagan) custom.

[DMB]

If so, I think that's been lost. Allah has been male as long as we can tell.

Not that history in that area is too clear.

ok, in both Egypt and Mesopotamia the lunar deity was male--- I'm going to guess that making Allah female is a womyn-centered modern retrofit.

I'm not an expert on female seclusion, but I thought it was tribal over religious.

I'm going to page Hex...
I think I read something about it in one of Ibn Warraq's books, but I can't remember which one. He is a serious scholar of Islam, so I would doubt his involvement in a modern retrofit.

[JamesBannon]

I was under the impression that secluding women came from the Byzantines.

And the Romans and the Greeks. These civilisations were not as "enlightened" as some would have us believe.

[Hex]

Interesting sidenote, DMB. I can't find any reference to Allah being a moon goddess, but were that the case, it would cause even more issues, as the sun is female in Arabic, while the moon is male ... :dunno:



The honor killings themselves are Pre-Islamic and tribal. As each of the Arabic tribes had their own individual gods and sacred areas, it's hard to tie this back to any one religion. One can, however, look at it as a means by which extended families could maintain an outward appearance of cohesiveness in the face of internal stresses. (Another example could be seen in looking to the functioning of the Japanese concept of 'Face' as an honor-based means of maintaining family/clan cohesion.)

Girls or women can sully their family's honour and destroy their reputation until they get married and become the responsibility of their husbands. In Arab societies women should remain mastura (hidden, low-profile) a term which implies physical and psychological confinement in the private and public space.36
The social boundaries of the group are defined by its honour and any act of transgression by the female members threatens the status quo. Families associate their honour with the virginity of their unmarried daughters and with the chastity of the married ones. 'Female violators of the honor code face a different fate; punishment in some form is inescapable. Once the violation is made public, the male members of the family must take immediate action.'37 The family's honour is normally purged in public to restore the social status of the family, tribe or clan.38

# 36 Salim Tamari, 'Al-Tabi'a al-'Unthawiyya' (The nature of women), Publications of Bir Zeit University, 1973, p 63
# 37 Serhan, 'Honour without women', p 23
# 38 Kressel, 'Sororicide/filiacide', p 141


Intrafamily Femicide in Defence of Honour: The Case of Jordan
Author(s): Fadia Faqir, Third World Quarterly, Vol. 22, No. 1 (Feb., 2001), pp. 65-82 (quoted text from page 69) (http://www.jstor.org/stable/3993346)

Note that this only works well if the actions that 'sully' a family become public. As long as they are hidden, then there's no need to have any 'clean-up' killings.

These, in the modern world, do make me wonder about people's mentalities, though. :(

And, as much as honor-killings are not Islamic, such violence against, and control of, women has been built into Islam. In doing a quick search, I hit an article (The Biological Roots of Heat-of-Passion Crimes and Honor Killings, by Matthew A. Goldstein (2002)) which was rather interesting, but not directly on topic, though one of the comments on it struck me:

Islamic Law is derived from two sources: the Koran, the Holy Book revealed to the Messenger, Prophet Mohammed (Peace Be Upon Him), and the Sunna, also called the Hadith. The Sunna prescribes life's moral way, and it comprises the sayings, actions, judgments, and decisions of the Prophet as conveyed to all Muslims, first verbally by Him and His companions, and later verbally and in writing from generation to generation of followers. The Sunna also presents an exegesis of the Koran itself.

Thus, the Koran laid down the law either in detail or as headlines, while the Sunna, a necessary supplementary source, explained, for better understanding, the details. It elaborated the duties of Muslims and the management of whatever a Muslim individual might encounter in life or a Muslim nation in politics. Hence, details of prayer, fasting, pilgrimage, zakat (obligatory payment to the poor by the rich), punishment, and personal and group relations ? social, economic, political ? were clarified in the Sunna.

...

Consider the Koran, Verse 2, Sura 24: The adulterer and the adulteress, scourge ye each one of them (with) a hundred stripes. And let not pity for the twain withhold you from obedience to Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the last day. And let a party of believers witness their punishment. This passage Goldstein has interpreted as showing that Islamic Law never prescribed death for adulterers. While on its face seeming to favor my argument that the vengeful abuse of women has no Islamic source, this interpretation conflates judicial punishment and domestic abuse, a mistake readily explained by unfamiliarity with Islamic Law's second source.

The Sunna speaks unambiguously to this Koranic passage, explaining that scourging is intended for promiscuous single people but that death is required for those unfaithful in marriage.


A Comment on Heat-of-Passion Crimes, Honor Killings, and Islam, Mohammed I. Khalili, Politics and the Life Sciences, Vol. 21, No. 2 (Sep., 2002), pp. 38-40 (quoted text pages 38-39) (http://www.jstor.org/stable/4236669)

How much of the Sunna and the myriad hadith accounts are based on reworking the words of Muhammad to fit the pre-Islamic tribal codes?

[tjakey]

The history is kind of interesting, but basically irrelevant. We are talking about women being oppressed, degraded and murdered today, in the full glare of the internet and international news organizations; and clearly as a part of Islamic teachings. IMHO Islam and its leaders are without excuse or reason.

[Hex]

But the leaders and apologists of Islam will point out just how such violence is decried. It's part of the culture of the Middle East, not the Islamic religion.

I'm not sure which would be harder to deal with in terms of working to eradicate the problem ... :dunno:

[BioBeing]

Well, to be fair to the 'justice' system, it's very similar in the US. The thought process seems to work on the assumption that there is no real point in jailing the person who does something like this to a family member because they are unlikely to be a danger to the geneal population.

Kinda stupid, but it's not limited to the cases of honor killing.

I think that the judicial system here is supposed to also offer a deterrent though. If you kill someone, you go to jail to (a) be rehabilitated and (b) serve as a warning to others to not do it. So sure, this guy may not do any more "honor" killings (unless he has more sisters), but immediately halving the sentence appears as if the system is saying that this type of killing isn't as bad as other types. The system is not working to deter other people from doing it.

[Anne]

The history is kind of interesting, but basically irrelevant. We are talking about women being oppressed, degraded and murdered today, in the full glare of the internet and international news organizations; and clearly as a part of Islamic teachings. IMHO Islam and its leaders are without excuse or reason.

This attitude is a good reason that Muslims in a more peaceful society are hated as well.

The religion has it's own issues. But condemning it because of a tangential cultural link is also ... well... not skeptical.

And until I can see a reference for Allah being a goddess, I'm taking that with a grain of salt.

[tjakey]

Anne, I'm not sure there is a clear line between religion and culture. In fact I'm sure there isn't. In my limited historical studies it seems that religions often die with their cultures.

In any case I don't see any religion, in any circumstance and at any time, as a good thing. At the very best it may be a harmless thing for some people for a limited period, but that's the best one can hope for. Islam is clearly not harmless and to suggest that Islam is somehow innocent in the abuse of women (and gay people and "infidels) in the cultures where the religion is the dominant world view, is a puzzle at best. I am continuously surprised at the effort people who are not Muslims put into defending the religion that brought down the WTC. (Make no mistake, religion brought down those towers. The people who hijacked those airplanes joyfully flew them into oblivion SURE that they were going to heaven and bringing glory to Allah.)

Anyway, I long ago realized that, even among non-believers, religion and faith usually get a pass if not outright special treatment. It isn't "Islam" its "the terrorists." Fuck the fact that Islam is the world view of the terrorists and their goal it to force Islam on the entire world. Yet if Islam disappeared tomorrow said world would be a much better place, we all know it, and that pretty much tells the tale so far as I can see.

(DMB, you wouldn't start this thread just to set me off on another rant, would you? No, of course not.)

[premjan]

You think Islam is a symptom or a cause?

[Anne]

tjakey, I am not defending Islam. I am merely trying to clear up a misconception about the religion.

You make the Persians Christian, pagan, atheists, there will still be honor killings because that is the result of their tribal culture.

Religion and culture are linked, but only so much. Or are you honestly going to tell me that a good god-fearing Irish Catholic mother of 14 is the same culture as the Sicilian Catholic who is childfree by choice and who worships the volcano?

The people in power use the religion to help or hinder their goals. It's a tool, not the disease itself, not in all cases. There was no religion involved at all in the McCarthy era. But that's a different tangent...

Or else, can I spout that the 'atheistic philosophy' is what caused all those massacres in Asia? You can't separate it, right?

It's people with the view that you are purporting who lynch innocent third generation Muslims in Ohio because 'all them thar towel heads are eeeevil!'

[tjakey]

Wow, now I am part of a lynch mob? I don't even remember filling out the application.

My view is that all religion is false. My view is that false things don't do anyone any good, (though they can, occasionally, be harmless). And my view is that Islam is at the forefront of a lot of the evil that is being done in the world today.

If, in your view, that makes me worse than a Muslim, than all I can say is that your world view is as screwed up as theirs.

I don't think it is that easy premjan. Symptoms and causes can reinforce each other. Shea and Sunni have a theological argument that becomes part of a struggle for power, that escalates into hate speech, that grows into violence, that matures into genocide. Cause and symptom? Hard to tell one from the other.

[Anne]

hey, no problems.

If in your view my view is 'screwed up' and you can say this:

Anne, I'm not sure there is a clear line between religion and culture. In fact I'm sure there isn't. In my limited historical studies it seems that religions often die with their cultures.

with a straight face, I'm cool with it.

Did Christianity die? Did the Holy Roman Empire? Hey, just asking... religion and culture linked, check.

[premjan]

Religion can reinforce some bad tendencies definitely.

[Anne]

evil people will use whatever they can hide behind as a shield.

But can someone please show me where in the Koran it says to shoot your sister if she is raped?

I can point to that in the OT, btw... but that's not an 'honor killing', that's execution for sex...

[premjan]

http://www.measuredhs.com/pubs/pdf/OD31/OD31.pdf
Reporting is probably bad in many of these countries, but Zambia, Peru, and Colombia have higher domestic violence than Egypt.

[David B]

You think Islam is a symptom or a cause?

False dichotomy, Prem, in a world in which both/and is a possibility:cool:

A world in which there are feedback effects.

Symptom and cause, both, is my best gurss,

David

[premjan]

True.

[dancer_rnb]

Wow, now I am part of a lynch mob? I don't even remember filling out the application.

My view is that all religion is false. My view is that false things don't do anyone any good, (though they can, occasionally, be harmless). And my view is that Islam is at the forefront of a lot of the evil that is being done in the world today.

If, in your view, that makes me worse than a Muslim, than all I can say is that your world view is as screwed up as theirs.

I don't think it is that easy premjan. Symptoms and causes can reinforce each other. Shea and Sunni have a theological argument that becomes part of a struggle for power, that escalates into hate speech, that grows into violence, that matures into genocide. Cause and symptom? Hard to tell one from the other.

If Islam had never arose, do you think honor killing would not be occurring?

[premjan]

Muhammad was just a bit of a pussy and tried to permit everything that he thought there was no use to forbid.

[tjakey]

hey, no problems.

If in your view my view is 'screwed up' and you can say this:

Anne, I'm not sure there is a clear line between religion and culture. In fact I'm sure there isn't. In my limited historical studies it seems that religions often die with their cultures.

with a straight face, I'm cool with it.

Did Christianity die? Did the Holy Roman Empire? Hey, just asking... religion and culture linked, check.

The greek gods died with that civilization, as with the Aztecs, Mayans, and Native American gods. The Holy Roman Empire died, and with it much of the power of the Catholic church. So yeah, I'm pretty sure my straight face is safe. On the other hand, I'm not sure a straight face works with "religion and culture are NOT linked." But if it works for you...

[tjakey]

If Islam had never arose, do you think honor killing would not be occurring?

Well, for certain no one would be killing their daughters and their sisters in the name of Allah. Would they find some other reason to kill daughters and sisters? I don't know, is there anyone but Muslims doing it today for "honor?"

[Anne]

Muhammad was just a bit of a pussy and tried to permit everything that he thought there was no use to forbid.

I'm not sure... it really looks like he liberated women for the time--- but then his reforms went static instead of growing with society.

For the time and the <gasp> culture he was writing to, his work was revolutionary.

hey, no problems.

If in your view my view is 'screwed up' and you can say this:

Anne, I'm not sure there is a clear line between religion and culture. In fact I'm sure there isn't. In my limited historical studies it seems that religions often die with their cultures.

with a straight face, I'm cool with it.

Did Christianity die? Did the Holy Roman Empire? Hey, just asking... religion and culture linked, check.

The greed gods died with that civilization, as with the Aztecs

wha huh?

[Anne]

If Islam had never arose, do you think honor killing would not be occurring?

Well, for certain no one would be killing their daughters and their sisters in the name of Allah. Would they find some other reason to kill daughters and sisters? I don't know, is there anyone but Muslims doing it today for "honor?"

Again, they are doing it for 'honor' not 'allah'.

Where in the Koran does it support this?


hey, no problems.

If in your view my view is 'screwed up' and you can say this:

Anne, I'm not sure there is a clear line between religion and culture. In fact I'm sure there isn't. In my limited historical studies it seems that religions often die with their cultures.

with a straight face, I'm cool with it.

Did Christianity die? Did the Holy Roman Empire? Hey, just asking... religion and culture linked, check.

The greek gods died with that civilization, as with the Aztecs, Mayans, and Native American gods. The Holy Roman Empire died, and with it much of the power of the Catholic church. So yeah, I'm pretty sure my straight face is safe. On the other hand, I'm not sure a straight face works with "religion and culture are NOT linked." But if it works for you...


ah, ok.

Mayan tribes still worship their gods. Let's not go to Native North American's, mmmkay? The Roman empire changed religions without falling, and then the religion survived (don't give me that 'loss of power' crap--- that was much later) after the Empire fell.

Please show me where the Koran or Mohammad supported honor killings before you continually blame Islam for this. Show me where countries outside of the Arabic world with large Muslim populations also have honor killings at anywhere near the same rate.

This is a vestige of the Arabic tribal system, which Mohammad is argued to have tried to destroy with Islam.

[tjakey]

evil people will use whatever they can hide behind as a shield.

But can someone please show me where in the Koran it says to shoot your sister if she is raped?

I can point to that in the OT, btw... but that's not an 'honor killing', that's execution for sex...

Anne, one thing I promise is that I won't suggest that the Christian / OT / NT religion is somehow "better" than Islam. Certainly there is as much blood on the Christian church as on Islam. Its just that the Christians did the worst of their blood letting a few hundred years ago while, with Islam, its kind of a contemporary thing.

I am a bit morbidly curious though, do you really think Islam is some kind of innocent bystander in the world today? That the religion has nothing to do with the genocide, the honor killings, the wars, the terrorism, the bombings and the hate? That Islam would be some kind of a "good thing" if we just gave it a chance? Really?

[premjan]

Islam is sort of a bid for power resorted to by historically somewhat marginal societies and groups. It is never going to get better until Muslims feel powerful enough to be liberal.

[DMB]

If Islam had never arose, do you think honor killing would not be occurring?

Well, for certain no one would be killing their daughters and their sisters in the name of Allah. Would they find some other reason to kill daughters and sisters? I don't know, is there anyone but Muslims doing it today for "honor?"

I have come across a Sikh case. I don't know how common it is, but it is certainly true that the idea of honour killing predates Islam. And even relatively recently in Christian Europe, a husband who killed an unfaithful wife would be likely to get very lenient treatment from the courts. Even today, penalties for rapists are often derisory because some male judges seem to think that many of the victims are to blame.

But I do agree with you up to a point. If Islam were a decent religion, it would long ago have fought against the culture of honour killing and done its best to discourage it. And it is interesting that where stoning is practised for sexual sins, the victims are overwhelmingly female.

[premjan]

The Huns who became Hinduized back in the 4th century and turned into Rajputs had their own civilized version - women in danger of being raped by enemies would commit suicide. Wives would commit suicide on the husband's funeral pyre. Basically this strikes me as a voluntary or liberal version of the same tribal custom.

[dancer_rnb]

If Islam had never arose, do you think honor killing would not be occurring?

Well, for certain no one would be killing their daughters and their sisters in the name of Allah. Would they find some other reason to kill daughters and sisters? I don't know, is there anyone but Muslims doing it today for "honor?"

One of these days I'll have to check if machismo involves honor killings of some sort.


I agree the problem SEEMS to be worst in the majority culture of the mideast.
Whether this is actually the case or an artifact of what gets reported, I don't know.

[Anne]

evil people will use whatever they can hide behind as a shield.

But can someone please show me where in the Koran it says to shoot your sister if she is raped?

I can point to that in the OT, btw... but that's not an 'honor killing', that's execution for sex...

Anne, one thing I promise is that I won't suggest that the Christian / OT / NT religion is somehow "better" than Islam. Certainly there is as much blood on the Christian church as on Islam. Its just that the Christians did the worst of their blood letting a few hundred years ago while, with Islam, its kind of a contemporary thing.

I am a bit morbidly curious though, do you really think Islam is some kind of innocent bystander in the world today? That the religion has nothing to do with the genocide, the honor killings, the wars, the terrorism, the bombings and the hate? That Islam would be some kind of a "good thing" if we just gave it a chance? Really?

I never said it was 'better'. I actually, if you look at my first post to you, agreed that Islam is horrible. What I am pointing out is that the OT has 'honor killing' laws where a rape victim is to be stoned to death, while the Koran does not.

The Koran specifically calls for ONLY 100 lashes for ADULTERY. Not an easy punishment, but not for rape, and not death. Got it? Until you can show that this is being done in Allah's name (like the OT commandment to kill a woman who was raped) then it's not ISLAMIC, it's Arabic.

To answer your question, I find all the Abrahmic religions to be awful.

I just want people to have facts and not emotions when talking about things on a 'skeptics' board.

If Islam had never arose, do you think honor killing would not be occurring?

Well, for certain no one would be killing their daughters and their sisters in the name of Allah. Would they find some other reason to kill daughters and sisters? I don't know, is there anyone but Muslims doing it today for "honor?"

I have come across a Sikh case. I don't know how common it is, but it is certainly true that the idea of honour killing predates Islam. And even relatively recently in Christian Europe, a husband who killed an unfaithful wife would be likely to get very lenient treatment from the courts. Even today, penalties for rapists are often derisory because some male judges seem to think that many of the victims are to blame.

But I do agree with you up to a point. If Islam were a decent religion, it would long ago have fought against the culture of honour killing and done its best to discourage it. And it is interesting that where stoning is practised for sexual sins, the victims are overwhelmingly female.

Mohammad apparently tried. That's why the Koranic law is for lashes, not death, which was the law it attempted to replace.

This is not like Jesus not speaking out against slavery, this was an actual law change that the culture resisted.

The Huns who became Hinduized back in the 4th century and turned into Rajputs had their own civilized version - women in danger of being raped by enemies would commit suicide. Wives would commit suicide on the husband's funeral pyre. Basically this strikes me as a voluntary or liberal version of the same tribal custom.

Since some 'forced suicides' are 'honor killings', one ought to include Japan's traditions of suicide to 'save face' in as well with honor killings.

Once you do that, then you open it up to different religions thus making it cultural.

If Islam had never arose, do you think honor killing would not be occurring?

Well, for certain no one would be killing their daughters and their sisters in the name of Allah. Would they find some other reason to kill daughters and sisters? I don't know, is there anyone but Muslims doing it today for "honor?"

One of these days I'll have to check if machismo involves honor killings of some sort.


I agree the problem SEEMS to be worst in the majority culture of the mideast.
Whether this is actually the case or an artifact of what gets reported, I don't know.

Girls in traditional Italian families have been beaten or killed for having sex by their brothers and fathers.

Rare, but happens. I'm sure other Mediterranian countries do similar things...

[dancer_rnb]

Rare, but happens. I'm sure other Mediterranian countries do similar things...

I was thinking more of the Latin countries/cultures. I know from what my mom told me
girls who didn't avoid boys used to get mistreated, like she did. Just don't know how far
that mistreatment could potentially go.

[Anne]

Sorry--- I think of 'Latin' and 'Hispanic' as 'Mediterranian'. My fault, I know the 'correct' terms.

South America is full of abuse of women. One reason some American men love getting wives from there.

[dancer_rnb]

Not sure it has to do with correctness as much as viewpoint. Having some Native descent not too far back, and Mexican background, I tend to think of people such as Spaniards and Italians as European, and Latins as being from Latin America.

Hmm, and my mom did marry an Anglo.

[DMB]

Although the koran calls "only" for lashes for "adultery", there are theological arguments about what that means. Rather than "adultery", it is taken to mean illicit sex between unmarried people. According to the sunna, Muhammad's punishment for what we would call "adultery" was stoning, and the practice of the Prophet is taken for guidance where appropriate.

[Anne]

tangent: I call Roman based countries Latin, and Spanish/Indigenous cultures Hispanic.

just my call.

/tangent

the Sunna says that it's only for fornication and that adultery is death by stoning.

But the Koran is (IMO) clear it's not.

Does the Sunna mention honor killings though?

[premjan]

This probably is a reasonably affective incentive against actual adultery (which was traditionally sought to be discouraged) though the confusion of adultery and rape is a huge problem. The same confusion is seen in the Uttara Ramayana, where Rama is unable to take Sita back into his house as his wife even though her being abducted by Ravana was not her fault. There mere hint of sexual impurity is enough I guess. Which makes sense as this is about the male being sure of his bloodline. But the punishments don't make sense. Hunter Gatherers would not sacrifice a healthy woman just because she was sexually compromised by another man. They might I suppose kill an offspring, for this or other reasons.

[HinduWoman]

Anne I really don't think that except banning female infanticide (and I don't think that was a widespread custom throughout all arabia either) Muhammad actually improved female standing.

It is common apologetics to say that Muhammad gave women property rights but that completely ignores the case of his own first wife Khadija. Khadija was an independant businesswoman with property of her own and Muhammad was her salaried employee. Khadija proposed to Muhammad and not any guardian. Muhammad really did not get anywhere until he married his rich female boss.

So where did independant female traders vanish after Islam was imposed?

There were also mention of poetesses before Muhammad. After him, a blank.

Ok I found this page http://www.geocities.com/realitywithbite/arabwoman.htm

[JamesBannon]

Male-dominated religion, which almost all are, is bad for women, period.

[HinduWoman]

Basically religion and culture reinforce each other.

A religion that develops in one place will have features of that particular culture. But soon those features will be regarded as god-given and so immutable. Islam is patriarchal and women simply don't have as many rights as men. Since Allah says so, value of women is less and it encourages misogyny further.
The problem is that Islam nowhere forbids honour killing, as it does female infanticide, though they undoubtedly existed before. On the other hand lower value of women is sanctioned in religion and beating of the wife is recommended in the Koran. Adultresses are to be flogged in Koran and in sunnah they are stoned to death for illegal sex. In hadiths women are 'shame' who are not pure until they are finally dead. Therefore to many muslims honour killing is something permitted and not blame worthy.


The truly disgusting thing about these honour killings is that the men are never punished. Even in case of familial rape where a brother or uncle rapes the girl, the victim is killed and the rapist walks free. And mothers usually support this. :angry:

[Anne]

HW--- I totally agree with your disgust, and I agree that the religion reflects the culture. But they are not inseparable. But a religion not forbidding something --- well, no offense, I wouldn't have thought to forbid honor killings. I would never have thought of it.

I believe the 'benefit' Islam brought women was that it standardized their roles across the tribes. It raised some women and lowered others, so 'overall' it was a boon.

I'm not agreeing with that statement, just that the pre-Islamic culture sucked in that area for many women, and that the attitudes towards women were established before Mohamhed was a gleam in his father's eye...

[Ray Moscow]

HW--- I totally agree with your disgust, and I agree that the religion reflects the culture. But they are not inseparable. But a religion not forbidding something --- well, no offense, I wouldn't have thought to forbid honor killings. I would never have thought of it.

I believe the 'benefit' Islam brought women was that it standardized their roles across the tribes. It raised some women and lowered others, so 'overall' it was a boon.

I'm not agreeing with that statement, just that the pre-Islamic culture sucked in that area for many women, and that the attitudes towards women were established before Mohamhed was a gleam in his father's eye...

As Bertrand Russell put it, one major problem is that religions justify and perpetuate injustices long after society would grow beyond them otherwise.

Islam, Christianity, or Judaism (to name a few) might not have created the lower status of women or hatred of gays; they just entrenched this status forever and ever for the faithful (and for the rest of us who live under their influence).

[tjakey]

Thanks Ray (and Russell!) That's what I have been struggling to say. Since all religion claims, to some degree, to be god's truth, once they decide something it becomes damn near impossible to admit that they made a mistake. Honor killing is just such a thing. I'm not sure how it got into Islamic doctrine, (maybe they did borrow it from secular tribal cultures in the way the Christians borrowed Easter from the pagans) but once entrenched it continues to be passed along to each succeeding generation. Religions inability to evolve readily as more things are learned and understood is its primary flaw, the reason it does so much damage in the world.

[Ray Moscow]

It's certainly possible that religious rules were or at least seemed to be, when first implemented, positive reforms. For example, "An eye for an eye" might have been a big improvement over more extreme forms of vengeance.

But then the supposedly "eternal" nature of the religious doctrine prevents any more progress.

[Hex]

Anne I really don't think that except banning female infanticide (and I don't think that was a widespread custom throughout all arabia either) Muhammad actually improved female standing.

The original conception of the umma was that all muslims, male or female, economic status notwithstanding, were equal in the sight of Allah ...

I think that was a sizable improvement in standing for females ...

[Anne]

Apparantly not for all tribes. Some tribes already had women as equals.

[Valheru]

ISLAM: Raping virgins for Great Justice since the bronze age!

[dancer_rnb]

ISLAM: Raping virgins for Great Justice since the bronze age!

You need to restudy history if you think Islam was around in the bronze age.

:evil:

[Valheru]

Don't diss me, I killing you and rape you village for great justice, infidel! :D

[dancer_rnb]

You some sort of Crusader?:D

If so, I've got nothing to worry about. You'll be too busy fighting among yourselves
and pillaging coreligionists to ever reach me

[Valheru]

Allah'u ahkbar!!!!!!!






(christ, that made me feel so dirty to type) :puke: