Teenage burglar killed in the dark by police

[Berthold]

This is a very extraordinary event here. Austria has its fair share of burglaries; but such a degree of weapon use by the police in a situation that was, admittedly, unclear, but definitely did not involve anything like hostage taking etc., that's a first, at least to my memory.

I have no intention to generally accuse the people whose job is law enforcement.

What is your opinion about this? Have you heard about similar cases?

Link (http://www.austriantimes.at/news/General_News/2009-08-05/15311/%B4Armed%B4_teenager_gunned_down_by_cops)

[tjakey]

One the one hand you have to think that shooting a 14 year old for holding a screwdriver is maybe a bit of an over reaction. On the other, you jump out at a cop in the dark after breaking into a store? You gotta think the odds are not in your favor.

[DMB]

Does the fact that the person killed was a teenager alter anything? If it had been a 35yo, would it have been unusual for the police to shoot him?

It seems to me that in such a situation they wouldn't have been able to tell the age of the criminal, so it isn't really relevant. Of course it is deeply upsetting when a kid is killed. We all know that teenagers often go through a tearaway phase and then learn better, but I would like to understand the degree of risk this teenager was taking, or would have thought he was taking.

[dancer_rnb]

Article mentioned one of the teenagers had a hoe. Maybe the handle looked like a gun barrel in the dark?

[Sam Hunter]

The article said:
“[The boys] had had a screwdriver and a garden hoe with them and so had been armed in a "technical", if not legal, sense.”

Can anyone explain to me the difference between being ‘technically armed’ and being ‘legally armed’? When does an item go from being a technical weapon to being a legal one?

[purple_kathryn]

presumably when it's something that's designed as a weapon eg a gun or a knife

[Goldie]

It's sad. We all hope kids make it through that teenage phase. Some don't. You really can't blame the officers. I worked in juvenile detention for many yrs. Many of our boys were as big as grown men and much more dangerous than most.

They appeared armed. You don't always have time for second guesses. :(

[tjakey]

As a cop friend of mine once said, (Really, I had one, once, a long, long time ago.), "I would rather be tried by 12 than carried by six."

[Christina]

We had a terrible incident here a few years ago. A man that was living in mental health supportive housing had acquired a very real looking plastic gun. For some incredibly irresponsible reason the staff didn't take it away from him even though he was known to wander around town all day and had been playing "Pow, you're dead" games around the complex all week. Late one night he was standing in a dark corner waving the gun at people walking by and of course one of them called the police. The first officer that responded was very young and had only been on the job a few weeks. According to all of the witnesses he repeatedly ordered the guy to drop the gun and he wouldn't. Then the guy slowly pointed the gun at the officer and took aim and the officer tried to shoot at his arm but the guy moved and the shot killed him. It was only afterward that they realized that the gun had been a toy in the hands of a mentally ill man. The poor officer was devastated and has to live with that for the rest of his life. It was such a tragedy from all angles. The officer isn't to blame but I hope that the mental health workers who thought it was cute to let him play with it like a child suffer from enormous guilt for the rest of their lives.

[Garrett]

I bet it depends on whether the cop can convince a jury that she reasonably felt her life was in danger. :dunno:

[tjakey]

A crazy person lurking in the shadows waving a gun around? I'm surprised the cops got there before some NRA type popped the dude. I mean, isn't that why we are all supposed to be carrying concealed weapons, so we can protect ourselves from the OTHER crazy people carrying guns?

[Christina]

I live in far lefty land and I'm not sure that too many people would even admit to being an NRA member, never mind shoot someone.

[LoneWolf]

Does the fact that the person killed was a teenager alter anything? If it had been a 35yo, would it have been unusual for the police to shoot him?


A teenager can be just as dangerous as a 35 year-old, if not more so given the fact they are less likely to think through their actions. And in the heat of the moment I doubt it could even be determined. Yes, it does make it more tragic when it is a teenager, but no less justified.

I know many of us rip on the cops here quite often, and for good reason, but I also have to admit...it is one shitty job, having to make a split second decision that will have life-long ramifications for everyone involved. Yeah, they get training, but no training can truly prepare you for that.

[Faerie]

Other than thinking its incredibly sad for all involved, I'd rather not comment as this happens SO often here in SA.

[Ray Moscow]

It's a tragedy.

However, in general I have little sympathy for burglars of whatever age.

[Octavia]

IMO, jumping out at an armed cop, in the dark with what looks like a weapon = Darwin at work.

Yes, colour me unsympathetic. It's sad for the kid's family, and unfortunate that teenagers don't look ahead, but stupid doesn't often beat a bullet.

[nygreenguy]

It's a tragedy.

However, in general I have little sympathy for burglars of whatever age.

And I generally have little sympathy for the police.

[Octavia]

I know many of us rip on the cops here quite often, and for good reason, but I also have to admit...it is one shitty job, having to make a split second decision that will have life-long ramifications for everyone involved. Yeah, they get training, but no training can truly prepare you for that.

One of those jobs it's easier to bitch about than do, I think.

Of course, some cops need bitching at. But by far the majority, IMO, at least in this country, are decent people doing the best they can to deal with idiots and criminals so that, bluntly put, I don't have to.

[Valheru]

And I generally have little sympathy for the police.

:rolleyes:

[Berthold]

It's a tragedy.

However, in general I have little sympathy for burglars of whatever age.
A nocturnal burglar targeting a non-residential object is, to me, in a different category than muggers, robbers, hostage takers...

He is ipso facto less dangerous, so the use of "less dangerous equipment" (police definition for nonlethal weapons) would be appropriate.

[Ray Moscow]

Ah, I didn't get the point that this was not a residence. In that case, I think this was probably a misuse of force.

[Valheru]

What difference does it make if it was a residence or not? Seriously? Is there a difference?

[Ray Moscow]

Breaking in to someone's home puts them into reasonable fear for their safety.

Breaking into commercial property does not necessarily do that to anyone.

[Berthold]

What difference does it make if it was a residence or not? Seriously? Is there a difference?
There is. In a supermarket in Austria after midnight one doesn't expect to encounter anyone. In a residential building, on the other hand, quite likely an awakening inhabitant.

[Valheru]

The cops shoot if they feel their own lives are in danger, as well, not just those on the premises being burgled. I think they're justified in doing so, regardless of the nature of the premises.

It was pitch dark, according to the article. Screwdriver = knife? Hoe = shotgun?

It's easy to criticize them without having been there ourselves.

[Faerie]

What difference does it make if it was a residence or not? Seriously? Is there a difference?
There is. In a supermarket in Austria after midnight one doesn't expect to encounter anyone. In a residential building, on the other hand, quite likely an awakening inhabitant.

Its logical now that you mention it, but I understand where Valheru comes from.... i.e. South Africa. :(

[Valheru]

What difference does it make if it was a residence or not? Seriously? Is there a difference?
There is. In a supermarket in Austria after midnight one doesn't expect to encounter anyone. In a residential building, on the other hand, quite likely an awakening inhabitant.

Hence, in a residential building, there will be more pressure on the cops to refrain from shooting. Commercial premises: less pressure. Somebody startles you - *bang*

Nice and easy, and understandable.

I hope the cop in question doesn't lose his job or gets sanctioned in any way.

[Ray Moscow]

There's also the strong possibility for the police to exaggerate the supposed threat to their safety to cover up a fuckup.

But that's true of police shootings in general.

[Octavia]

Training or not, though, if someone jumps you with what looks like a weapon in a dark place and you have a gun, instinct says "shoot the bugger". In that split instant of

A) overestimate the threat and risk their life
B) underestimate the threat and risk your life

I know what most people would choose.

And yeah, perhaps the cops could have handled it in a different way (tasers, surrounding the market and waiting for the kids to come out) - but so could the kids. Not only is there the don't rob others option, there's the fuck me, but the cops are here with guns, shall I give myself up instead of trying to clobber them? option. Neither of which is rocket science.

[Valheru]

There's also the strong possibility for the police to exaggerate the supposed threat to their safety to cover up a fuckup.

Needless to say, that's true.

However, I think it's a bit cynical to automatically assume that this is the case. I think people are somewhat emotionally involved by the fact that it was a kid, and that it turned out that he wasn't armed in any substantially dangerous way.

[Ray Moscow]

It pretty much has to be considered and investigated whenever the police shoot anybody, especially if they were not clearly threatened themselves.

Of course mistakes in such cases will happen. Hell, in the UK our mostly unarmed police end up killing a lot of people by "mistake".

[Berthold]

Hence, in a residential building, there will be more pressure on the cops to refrain from shooting. Commercial premises: less pressure. Somebody startles you - *bang*
I meant this as indicating that the burglar did not come with the attitude, "What the heck, I'll clobber anyone I'll meet."

[DMB]

What is the possibility that a burglar of a commercial property would arm himself with the attitude that he could escape from potential trouble by shooting a cop?

If such things are vanishingly rare in Austria, then the cops ought probably to be blamed for being ready to shoot. If, however, it does happen from time to time, then the reaction of the cops in understandable: they go in expecting to arrest someone and then are jumped by a shadowy figure that in the dark looks armed.

[Ray Moscow]

Re burglars getting shot: This came to mind:

The Diplomatic Front (http://www.thepaincomics.com/weekly011031.htm)

[Loren Pechtel]

One the one hand you have to think that shooting a 14 year old for holding a screwdriver is maybe a bit of an over reaction. On the other, you jump out at a cop in the dark after breaking into a store? You gotta think the odds are not in your favor.

A screwdriver can stab. They probably were just trying to escape once discovered but people get killed by the cops this way every so often--the only escape route is to go past the cop and the cop has no way of knowing if it's an attack or an escape.

Most of the time it involves a car but things like this happen.

[Pandora]

I live in far lefty land and I'm not sure that too many people would even admit to being an NRA member, never mind shoot someone.

He he he... Seattle is "far lefty land". But once you get out of the metro area... the whole state is red. Lots of guns up here. I own guns as well, but I don't carry them with me everywhere. Too much of a liability and I'm not coordinated enough to keep it properly concealed :p.

[Loren Pechtel]

It's a tragedy.

However, in general I have little sympathy for burglars of whatever age.
A nocturnal burglar targeting a non-residential object is, to me, in a different category than muggers, robbers, hostage takers...

He is ipso facto less dangerous, so the use of "less dangerous equipment" (police definition for nonlethal weapons) would be appropriate.

Ah, I didn't get the point that this was not a residence. In that case, I think this was probably a misuse of force.

What difference does it make if it was a residence or not? Seriously? Is there a difference?

Total red herrings.

Nobody should be shot for being a burglar except in very limited circumstances involving things like WMD or the like.

These guys weren't shot for being burglars. They were shot for appearing to be a threat to the police investigating the burglary. Where they were makes no difference in this.

[Pandora]

Training or not, though, if someone jumps you with what looks like a weapon in a dark place and you have a gun, instinct says "shoot the bugger". In that split instant of

A) overestimate the threat and risk their life
B) underestimate the threat and risk your life

I know what most people would choose.

And yeah, perhaps the cops could have handled it in a different way (tasers, surrounding the market and waiting for the kids to come out) - but so could the kids. Not only is there the don't rob others option, there's the fuck me, but the cops are here with guns, shall I give myself up instead of trying to clobber them? option. Neither of which is rocket science.

:notworthy: Absolutely. Of all the options available to these kids... they chose the one most likely to get them injured or dead. My sympathy extends only to their parents.

[tjakey]

I live in far lefty land and I'm not sure that too many people would even admit to being an NRA member, never mind shoot someone.

I live in the center of the RED-NECK belt. Its a good bet than any pick-up truck you pass (except mine) has a gun in the glove compartment. It is risky to admit that you have never belonged to the NRA (let alone consider it a terrorist organization). And I think most of them are just waiting for the day someone breaks into their house so they can open fire. A crazy person lurking in the shadows and waving a gun around in these parts is likely to get filled with many different caliber holes long before the cops arrive.