Is religion like smoking?

[DMB]

Some people smoke to "calm their nerves". But the addiction to nicotine and the craving for a fix are what irritate the nerves in the first place.

In the same way, a religion like Christianity sets people up to feel bad as miserable sinners in need of saving. Then it consoles them by telling them that the death of Jesus will save them, even though they don't deserve it.

Just as the person who never smoked doesn't need the soothing fix of nicotine, so the person who has never accepted religious indoctrination gets along OK without needing salvation.

[Oolon Colluphid]

Just as the person who never smoked doesn't need the soothing fix of nicotine, so the person who has never accepted religious indoctrination gets along OK without needing salvation.
Dunno. What about the neurotic Woody Allen types?

I'm not sure if Allen was ever religious, but he seems to be an athesit now, nor am I sure how much of his various characters are really 'him', but there is the existential angst side of things that even the non-religious feel from time to time. That other form of Dawkins's "I'm an atheist buttery": "I'm an atheist but life sure seems bleak and meaningless..."

[DMB]

Life can seem bleak and meaningless, but it doesn't make most atheists long for salvation.

[Oolon Colluphid]

Not atheists of the considered variety. But blank-slate ones, who've never been indoctrinated and so have no experience of rejecting religion's claims, have long been fodder for prostelytisers. Those who "never really believed in God, don't know much about it, don't care" can be fed all sorts of shit, and some will eat it.

I can't imagine that there'd be so much money spent on producing Watchtower pamphlets if they're solely for the converted and never reel anyone in.

[DMB]

Not atheists of the considered variety. But blank-slate ones, who've never been indoctrinated and so have no experience of rejecting religion's claims, have long been fodder for prostelytisers. Those who "never really believed in God, don't know much about it, don't care" can be fed all sorts of shit, and some will eat it.

I can't imagine that there'd be so much money spent on producing Watchtower pamphlets if they're solely for the converted and never reel anyone in.

Nah. They're for the lapsed or for the people who think there "must be something out there", not the never-believed-in-the-first-place.

[Brother Daniel]

Those who "never really believed in God, don't know much about it, don't care" can be fed all sorts of shit, and some will eat it.
Yes. But I've never seen any indication that feeling like a miserable sinner in need of salvation is a characteristic of such people -- until after they have "eaten the shit" (so to speak).

My reaction to the OP, tbqh, is: Exactly! Exactly! Exactly!

[Oolon Colluphid]

Nah. They're for the lapsed or for the people who think there "must be something out there", not the never-believed-in-the-first-place.
Possibly. But I see an overlap between the there-must-be-something-out-there and the passively-never-believed sets. The unconsidered de facto atheist, if made to consider the 'right' things, can presumably be persuaded. That is, after all, what happens to children.

My wife, for instance, was a 'feel there must be something' for years, though far from religious, lapsed or otherwise. Take such a person, and ladle on, oh, irreducible complexity, with some nice quote-mines from scientists (to use an example from one Watchtower I received unbidden), and you can sow seeds of "well maybe..."

[David B]

My long flirtation was, as far as introspection is reliable, as a result of existential angst and having the idea that atheism led to nihilism, which I now see doesn't follow.

And at the time I believed that my experiences of meditation were real spiritual experiences, rather than a result of the suggestible, hypnotic sort of state that the initiation and practice of meditation brings about in many people.

For late comers to Christianity, I'd imagine that experiences during something like a revivalsit meeting of the Toronto Blessing sort produce a similar belief that their experience is a real spiritual experience, rather than a mental state that has been induced.

More than imagine - it's my working hypothesis, and has been for some time.

David B

[Ray Moscow]

Possibly. But I see an overlap between the there-must-be-something-out-there and the passively-never-believed sets. The unconsidered de facto atheist, if made to consider the 'right' things, can presumably be persuaded. That is, after all, what happens to children.

My wife, for instance, was a 'feel there must be something' for years, though far from religious, lapsed or otherwise. Take such a person, and ladle on, oh, irreducible complexity, with some nice quote-mines from scientists (to use an example from one Watchtower I received unbidden), and you can sow seeds of "well maybe..."

Oh, yes. As a former fundie & former evangelical, I can show you how to "convert" these folks.

To a large extent, it's playing on a person' fears, hopes, and (usually) ignorance.

[Hex]

To a large extent, it's playing on a person' fears, hopes, and (usually) ignorance.

Yeah ... 'Cause trying to convert people who read the whole Bible, cover-to-cover and said 'WTF?' isn't as easy as if you can cherry-pick verses to reel them in ...

[Ray Moscow]

It's also pretty hard to sell anyone on the first 10 chapters or so of Genesis if he/she knows any earth science or biology.

Or on the benevolence of Yahweh if they read much of the Hebrew Bible.

[DMB]

I was just discussing today with my husband how former catholics in particular often seem horribly guilt-ridden. I really do think that being brought up catholic fucks up a lot of people's minds.

[Lisa0315]

Some people smoke to "calm their nerves". But the addiction to nicotine and the craving for a fix are what irritate the nerves in the first place.

In the same way, a religion like Christianity sets people up to feel bad as miserable sinners in need of saving. Then it consoles them by telling them that the death of Jesus will save them, even though they don't deserve it.

Just as the person who never smoked doesn't need the soothing fix of nicotine, so the person who has never accepted religious indoctrination gets along OK without needing salvation.

Interesting. I cannot give an answer as I was indoctrinated at age five. If it is true, then, there is no stronger addiction. I was out of church for 23 years, and craved it the whole time.

Lisa

[Christina]

I was just discussing today with my husband how former catholics in particular often seem horribly guilt-ridden. I really do think that being brought up catholic fucks up a lot of people's minds.

I was sitting in a conference with a lot of other homeless service providers and someone asked how many of us had been raised as Catholics. More than 3/4 of us had. I've never seen myself as particularly guilt-ridden - quite the opposite. I've always done whatever I wanted to regardless of societal conventions and expectations and not worried much about what anyone else thought about it. I am a terrible bleeding heart about some things but I don't think it's from guilt or Catholicism. It just happens, but I may have internalized all of that helping the poor stuff. It was probably the only part of what I was being taught that made any sense to me.

[Jobar]

Interesting. I cannot give an answer as I was indoctrinated at age five. If it is true, then, there is no stronger addiction. I was out of church for 23 years, and craved it the whole time.

Lisa

Not just a feel-good reward, but an everlasting feel-good reward.

I can remember really believing as a child; feeling all warm and fuzzy when I went up to be baptized, and glad to know that I was saved. (Southern Baptists aren't all of the 'once saved always saved' variety; but in the church where I grew up, there was a strong implication that being a good Baptist meant you had your ticket to Heaven.)

As I grew older though, and learned about how the world worked, my faith simply seemed less and less relevant, less comforting, less true. When I read the Bible cover to cover at 14... well, I was an open atheist at 15. (Not something easy to be, in the South in 1970.) But for me, the psychological addiction became a repulsion. It was hard for me to ignore the social and familial influences, but I usually felt my loss of belief as a liberation, not a deprivation; "was blind, but now I see."

None of my siblings (2 brothers, 2 sisters, all younger than I) have left the belief we grew up with, and my closest brother is a pillar of his church. It still puzzles and fascinates me how differently I've turned out.

Obviously religion's addictive properties have very different effects for different people.

So despite the addictive force of belief, and the social pressures which tend to keep one in the fold, some of us, for some reason or reasons, seem to shrug off the addiction and resist the pressure.

[Garnet]

Interesting. I've never drawn the parallel before but I just realized that I do view religion now like I view cigarettes.

I'm repulsed by both now.

[DMB]

I always want to know why any rational person thinks they need to be saved. I really do think that "need" is created by the churches. And it's not just churches either, but other religions as well, even if it's only at the level of "perform this ritual correctly, or things will go wrong".