Do witches have to dress up?

[Pendaric]

Yesterday I was in Borders, and I saw a woman looking at the woo-woo section.

It was like looking at a pantomime witch.

She was wearing a long black cloak with a red lining, pointy boots, a purple shifty dress, a black top and loads of amulets with various symbols. And she was looking at one of these new age books of spells that you can find in the 'Mind, Body and Spirit' section.

I wasn't sure at first if it was some sort of promotion that the store was putting on, employing actors to dress up in costume or something. But I couldn't see anybody else in the store doing it, and there was no indication this was the case.

I know we have some pagans here - hi Jess - and I know there are some people in society who consider themselves to be witches/wizards. Not quite sure whether you would class them as pagans or not.

So, do people who consider themselves to be witches normally dress up in stereotypical pantomime garb, or was I just seeing an eccentric old woman playing at dress up?

[Christina]

I live in woo central and I see people dressing like that for every day things occasionally but they don't consider themselves to be in costume. They're just kind of nuts. There are a lot of wiccans here that are usually indistinguishable from the rest of the new agers, and when they dress up for rituals or celebrations they're in much more fairy-like garb. There's the goth leftovers that still dress like vampires. Maybe satanists or whatever they're called dress that way.

[Pendaric]

Are there people who consider themselves to be witches who dress normally?

[Anne]

Hi Pendaric!

Most Satanists I know dress in jeans and t-shirts.

Even if they are supposed to be in suits.

Satanists are just that way.

It's fun to dress up like Stevie Nicks, but that doesn't mean that people do it all the time, that those who do it are pagan, or that anywhere near a majority of pagans do it.

I for one do not dress that way. We do have some friends who do, but hey, they are weird anyway. Is sidhe in here? Because I think he dresses that way... You can ask him at ratpags or ~~E~~.

So, no, there is no uniform for any pagans, as far as I know (although I'm sure there obscure cults that do) in everyday life, although some groups have ritual wear (which would not be seen in B&N). I do think pagans tend to be attracted to cool things like the SCA and ren fairs, though... make of that what you will...

ratpags was supposed to be for the more critical pagan. there is a lot of misinformation out there about paganism etc, and there are a lot of Christians who claim to be pagan when they are really rebelling or confused. A lot of pagans go through that stage, though.

Does that answer anything?

eta: I'm not a witch, but I don't dress as anything you could label. I know a bunch of Wiccans and some Strega, and not one of them dresses like that, except for Hallowe'en.

[Hex]

So, do people who consider themselves to be witches normally dress up in stereotypical pantomime garb, or was I just seeing an eccentric old woman playing at dress up?

Or maybe an SCA-type person?

So far as I know, there's no real Wiccan code about dress (other than at sky-clad ceremonies), so as to why? Your guess could be as good as mine. :dunno:


That said, however ... There is a certain counter-cultural message that dressing in such a way sends. In much the same way that some new-age folks call themselves 'pagan', 'heathen', or 'witches'. To Christians, who have been seen to be in power for centuries, this is a blatant 'screw you and your ideals' sort of message of defiance.

Could be that's it, but that's just the anthropologist in me generalizing. The individual still makes their own choices ...

[Uthgar the Brazen]

Most of the pagans I've encountered who dress that way are simply "passing through," so to speak. And those particular folks dress that way as a loud announcement of how they're Not Christians(tm). Most of them I've known ended up back in a christian church eventually, where they made up truly laughable crap about their "pagan" experience as part of their "testimony."

I don't fit the pagan mold too terribly well, but it's closest to my own outlook so I go with it to spare long explanations.* And I wear jeans and t-shirts for the most part. I wore a tunic to the one SCA meeting I've ever attended, but otherwise it was jeans and tennis shoes. And I only very occasionally attend the Renaissance Festival, where (in jeans and t-shirt) I'm really just on the lookout for cool, shiny, pointy things. ;)

(*actually, ritual/ceremonial magic and philosophies are probably closer, but I've only known a couple of ceremonialists who weren't self-satisfied prigs on some extended woo-woo sponsored ego trip, so I try to avoid identification there)

[Anne]

Most of the pagans I've encountered who dress that way are simply "passing through," so to speak. And those particular folks dress that way as a loud announcement of how they're Not Christians(tm). Most of them I've known ended up back in a christian church eventually, where they made up truly laughable crap about their "pagan" experience as part of their "testimony."



Yeah, exactly.

[Pendaric]

What does SCA mean?

And what's a 'skyclad ceremony'?

[Garnet]

SCA is the Society for Creative Anachronism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_for_Creative_Anachronism

[Hex]

What does SCA mean?

And what's a 'skyclad ceremony'?

SCA = Society for Creative Anachronism (http://www.sca.org/)

The SCA is an international organization dedicated to researching and re-creating the arts and skills of pre-17th-century Europe. Our "Known World" consists of 19 kingdoms, with over 30,000 members residing in countries around the world. Members, dressed in clothing of the Middle Ages and Renaissance, attend events which feature tournaments, royal courts, feasts, dancing, various classes & workshops, and more.


Skyclad = Naked. (Gerald Gardner was a 'Naturalist' and so wrote it into the religion. :) )

[Notta]

So far as I know, there's no real Wiccan code about dress (other than at sky-clad ceremonies), so as to why? Your guess could be as good as mine.
Any religion that requires me to be naked, outside, in the cold, is one I can easily dispense with.

I don't even warm up wearing clothes until it reaches nearly 80 F. Unless I have on layers & layers of wool & thermals.

[Christina]

Any religion that requires me to be naked, outside, in the cold, is one I can easily dispense with.

I don't even warm up wearing clothes until it reaches nearly 80 F. Unless I have on layers & layers of wool & thermals.

I'm like that. I'd have to be a witch in a black down snowsuit.

[Anne]

I'm only skyclad when everyone else is.

In the shower, in bed, etc.

Most witches I know actually wear clothes (generally white flowy stuff) at rituals. Kids, you know...

[Brianna]

Are there people who consider themselves to be witches who dress normally?

I consider myself a witch and you wouldn't catch me anything but jeans and a t shirt. Maybe a hippie skirt.

Hiking shoes with mud on them.

:D

I do have some geeky stuff but that is more cause I am geeky the freakish :D

Not that there is anything wrong with that. :D:evil:

[Brianna]

I'm only skyclad when everyone else is.

In the shower, in bed, etc.

Most witches I know actually wear clothes (generally white flowy stuff) at rituals. Kids, you know...

The rituals that are skyclad are NOTED sky clad optional.

Kids aren't the problem with being skyclad, not really. Nudiest colonies welcome children and they aren't pagan, they just like being naked.

[Brianna]

I'm like that. I'd have to be a witch in a black down snowsuit.

i have two witchy women I know that wear long johns all year around :)

[Ray Moscow]

Are there people who consider themselves to be witches who dress normally?

Sure. I never dressed up when I was a practising pagan, except for ceremonies.

[alien billie]

.. pointy boots, ..

No no no. Witches wear ugly, square shoes, because they have no toes. They also wear wigs because they are bald, and gloves to hide their talons. (They also can’t stand the smell of children and have cobalt blue spit, but that’s not relevant here).

I thought everyone knew that.

[alien billie]

SCA = Society for Creative Anachronism (http://www.sca.org/)




Skyclad = Naked. (Gerald Gardner was a 'Naturalist' and so wrote it into the religion. :) )

Or as Granny Weatherwax would have it: “Dancin’ around without yer drawers on”.

[Ray Moscow]

IMO, "skyclad" was very much a modern innovation brought into northern forms of paganism. It's just too damn cold to go around naked outside, most of the year.

[Oolon Colluphid]

*sigh*

I hate you lot. You keep reminding me of my book collection, and all the stuff I have but haven't read. :(

Specifically, this:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41SJZESBCYL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA240_SH20_OU02_.jpg (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Triumph-Moon-History-Modern-Witchcraft/dp/0192854496/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1236260095&sr=1-2)

It's supposed to be excellent, so I recommend it.

[Brianna]

IMO, "skyclad" was very much a modern innovation brought into northern forms of paganism. It's just too damn cold to go around naked outside, most of the year.

Wisconsin oddly enough has the second most largest NUDIST community out side of CA. weird huh? :D

[Brianna]

*sigh*

I hate you lot. You keep reminding me of my book collection, and all the stuff I have but haven't read. :(

Specifically, this:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41SJZESBCYL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA240_SH20_OU02_.jpg (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Triumph-Moon-History-Modern-Witchcraft/dp/0192854496/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1236260095&sr=1-2)

It's supposed to be excellent, so I recommend it.

It looks good. Looks like it is mostly about Gardner though, who i think is a boob.

[Hex]

It looks good. Looks like it is mostly about Gardner though, who i think is a boob.

That's founding boob, Missy! :D

[Brianna]

That's founding boob, Missy! :D

That too.

I only dislike Crowley more.

[Anne]

what about Llywellyn, the publisher?

<shudder>

[Brianna]

what about Llywellyn, the publisher?

<shudder>

Their older stuff is good. Their newer stuff is fluff. I take each book by who it is by not the publisher.

[Anne]

I feel like they are a blind squirrel. Every good book they publish is a fluke.

[Brianna]

I feel like they are a blind squirrel. Every good book they publish is a fluke.

Eh. It works for some people :) :dunno:

[Uthgar the Brazen]

Every time I see that crescent moon on the spine of a book, I shudder a little. Most of the time I find that was the appropriate response.

Every now and again they surprise me, though.

[Brianna]

Every time I see that crescent moon on the spine of the book, I shudder a little. Most of the time I find that was the appropriate response.

Every now and again they surprise me, though.

I don't bother picking them up. Unless I know the author. then i might look at it twice.

[Anne]

see? non fluffy pagans ITT.

[Ray Moscow]

Hutton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Hutton) is a fairly respected academic.

I've only read bits of this book, though.

[sidhe]

It looks good. Looks like it is mostly about Gardner though, who i think is a boob.

^This.

Though I actually dislike Gardner more than Crowley. Crowley was a misogynist prick, charlatan, and asshole, but he was honest about it (through really obfuscative language, but he says, repeatedly, "I'm a lying asshole who didn't get enough hugs when I was little"). Gardner was just a misogynist prick, charlatan, and asshole. Could be, however, that my Thelemite friends are pretty cool (if pompous), and every Gardnerian I've ever known I've wanted to beat with a stick. :D

Llewellyn...eh. Used to be good. Now they're kinda comedic in their badness. :D

[Brianna]

Hutton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Hutton) is a fairly respected academic.

I've only read bits of this book, though.

He is.

:)

[Uthgar the Brazen]

I've only known one Gardnerian and liked her quite a bit. I appreciate Uncle Aleister, but am the first to own up to the fact he was barking mad.

[Garrett]

When I saw the thread title I wanted to say I like my witches naked, but after reading the thread it's skyclad ftw.

But I don't see a problem with people wearing clothes that express themselves.

[Puck]

But I don't see a problem with people wearing clothes that express themselves.

Same here. But, I'll be honest and say that if you run about in a costume, and it's not halloween time, I'm gonna think you are a flake. The world is big enough for us all, but mine isn't quite so large. :p

[Jobar]

Save for Halloween, I've never seen anyone dress up like a witch here in the South. I have seen goth-types that looked pretty vampiric, though.

What I'd pay good money to see are witches who travel around in bubbles. :D

[Moriah Conquering Wind]

It looks good. Looks like it is mostly about Gardner though, who i think is a boob.

That's founding boob, Missy! :D

That too.

I only dislike Crowley more.

How about founding boob who cobbled shamelessly off Crowley while protesting otherwise. :evil:

[Moriah Conquering Wind]

Save for Halloween, I've never seen anyone dress up like a witch here in the South. I have seen goth-types that looked pretty vampiric, though.

What I'd pay good money to see are witches who travel around in bubbles. :D

Step one: obtain the video game Oblivion
Step two: play a magick-using character in it
Step three: put on a shield spell before combat
Step four: go out of first-person view to third-person and watch your character. ;)

[Uthgar the Brazen]

How about founding boob who cobbled shamelessly off Crowley while protesting otherwise. :evil:

:notworthy:

Step one: obtain the video game Oblivion
Step two: play a magick-using character in it
Step three: put on a shield spell before combat
Step four: go out of first-person view to third-person and watch your character. ;)

Whoohoo!

[Moriah Conquering Wind]

Same here. But, I'll be honest and say that if you run about in a costume, and it's not halloween time, I'm gonna think you are a flake. The world is big enough for us all, but mine isn't quite so large. :p
Well at least you admit it honestly. ;)

Being a bit older now and a little plumper around the butt, one has to make concessions and do personal-expression dress "lite". Meaning you'll see the chains, jewelry and shirts (pseudo-gauntlet sleeves ftw!) you'd expect to see from a flake like moi, albeit more often than not, coupled with comfy black stretch "yoga" pants and plain black suede LL Bean slip-on shoes more than, say, raver pants and combat boots. Combat boots take too fucking long to lace up, too long to get off before sex, etc..

Comfy takes precedence. At home, nothing but black tee shirts and loose mens' jammy pants FTW. Which looks hilarious when you've got dog chains wrapped around your hands and chunky pentagram rings. :evil: But hey, not taking oneself TOO seriously keeps life as a flake tolerable in a world of perfect conformists. :evil:

For that added mental ward candidate appeal, avoid combing hair for two days, don blackest-of-the-black shades in cloudy weather, and top with a black London Fog trenchcoat when going out on the back deck for a smoke. Slippers optional. Furtive expression on the brow, and be sure your hands shake noticeably.

[Minty]

Are there people who consider themselves to be witches who dress normally?
Yep...me. I dress in a positively boring way.
*sigh*

I hate you lot. You keep reminding me of my book collection, and all the stuff I have but haven't read. :(

Specifically, this:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41SJZESBCYL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA240_SH20_OU02_.jpg (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Triumph-Moon-History-Modern-Witchcraft/dp/0192854496/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1236260095&sr=1-2)

It's supposed to be excellent, so I recommend it.

I'm in the process of reading it at the moment...but I'm finding it quite tough going...the main thing is the fact that the print size is damn tiny!!

[Izmir Stinger]

Say whatever you want about how that woman in the bookstore was dressed. Just keep in mind, nobody ever discusses or even thinks twice about what you are wearing after seeing you in public. Thinking about that, you may realize why she dressed the way she did.

[Pendaric]

Say whatever you want about how that woman in the bookstore was dressed. Just keep in mind, nobody ever discusses or even thinks twice about what you are wearing after seeing you in public. Thinking about that, you may realize why she dressed the way she did.

You have no idea what I was wearing....

[Puck]

LOL @ Pendaric. :D

Well, that's the point, Izzy. There's a difference between being non-conformist and an attention whore....

[Jobar]

Step one: obtain the video game Oblivion
Step two: play a magick-using character in it
Step three: put on a shield spell before combat
Step four: go out of first-person view to third-person and watch your character. ;)

I had Glenda the Good from the Land of Oz more in mind. :D

[Magdlyn]

LOL @ Pendaric. :D

Well, that's the point, Izzy. There's a difference between being non-conformist and an attention whore....

This makes me uncomfortable. I think you made the same comment about the pierced and tatted community... I wonder why you speak so harshly?

[Brianna]

This makes me uncomfortable. I think you made the same comment about the pierced and tatted community... I wonder why you speak so harshly?

I am kind of the same feeling on this one.

[Goldie]

Did Puck?
I am surprised because her daughter is tatted and pierced. :dunno:

[Garrett]

Same here. But, I'll be honest and say that if you run about in a costume, and it's not halloween time, I'm gonna think you are a flake. The world is big enough for us all, but mine isn't quite so large. :p
I like the flakes. So much more interesting and fun than the normal people.

[dancer_rnb]

Depends on whether the flakes are nasty or not. A decent flake is still a nice person. A mean one is still a rotten excuse for a human being.

[Goldie]

I really don't care how people dress. Where I live we have all kinds and I enjoy it.
TBH, most of the time you can't tell the uni prof from the hippie hitch-hiker, which is kind of interesting. Rich people dress like poor farmers and with the 2 universities here, you get every sort of fashion from the students. A lot of women around here dress white-witchy more than goth-like witchy. I enjoy the diversity. :)

[Christina]

It would be virtually impossible to dress weirdly enough to draw a lot of attention here. Between the university, all of the new agers and street people there's nothing new left to try. A woman walking down the street stark naked barely generates a stir beyond some giggles, people wearing loincloths covered in mud have parades down the main street and it's an all around hippie looking freak show that the tourists come to take pictures of. It's hard not to love it here if you're easily entertained by harmless silliness.

I don't know what Puck said about tattoos but it may be an age thing.. If a female had them when I was young you could pretty safely assume that she had spent some time in prison or at least been a 'biker chick'. All in all it was considered very low class and sleezy to have visible tattoos beyond the occasional hidden little flower or butterfly.

Now it's as common as can be and it doesn't reflect anything about the person's life or attitude beyond personal expression and creativity. Having a tattoo just means that you like tattoos. I know it intellectually, but I still cringe when I see a woman with them at first. Then I have to mentally slap myself and remind myself that I'm old and my stereotype is very outdated.

[Magdlyn]

Did Puck?
I am surprised because her daughter is tatted and pierced. :dunno:

Yes, I dont remember what thread... maybe a tattoo thread on the Grotto or something?

My middle dd is multiple pierced. She dressed colorfully. All 3 of my kids have or do dye their hair rainbow colors.

If they get attention for the way they look, that's just a side effect. I think some artistic ppl just like to use their body as a canvas for self expression. :dunno: No reason to dis them for not dressing in boring old plain tshirts and jeans.

[Pendaric]

I'm all for people being allowed to dress as they want, and do whatever they want to their bodies, although it doesn't appeal to me personally.

But if you look weird, you're gonna get looked at. That's kind of the point, I suppose.

[Christina]

Pendaric, when I was running the shelter we had a nutty guy that would show up in full flaming drag costumes that were hilariously creative, but he had this annoying habit of crying to me that people were all looking at him and giggling and that I should throw them out for it. I can't count the number of times I had to say "So what were you thinking this morning when you put that outfit on and started parading around town in it? Were you hoping to blend into the background and not be noticed?" He was funny but irritating.

[Magdlyn]

When I was younger, I used to dress hippie style, and later, punk. I'd get looks, and I liked em (Leo) but I didnt dress up FOR the looks. I dressed up just for fun!

[Christina]

I still have lots of hippie clothes and tiedyes but I don't wear them in public anymore. They make a statement here that isn't one that I want to make these days. Being a deadhead hasn't meant anything in my life for over 15 years if not longer. I dressed weirdly enough for decades to be perfectly content with looking normal now.

[Puck]

This makes me uncomfortable. I think you made the same comment about the pierced and tatted community... I wonder why you speak so harshly?

Why would it make you uncomfortable? It's not harsh, I'm just being honest about what I think. Don't tell me you want me to to conform to how you think I should think. :p

Look, I like colorful people in a community. I don't give a flying fuck how someone appears. However, it does say something about them, and the more outrageous they appear, the more it says. I live in a very small rural area, and I'm the first to defend someone 'different' than the jeans and t-shit crowd. It pisses me off when people titter behind someone's back and won't even look them in the eye in public. The world is big enough for us all.

So, if you believe that clowns bring laughter and joy to the world, and when you leave the house, you dress in clown costume, not only am I gonna think you're a flake, I'll tell you I think you are. It won't mean I don't love you to bits, but you will always know me, and what I think. I don't put on a false face.

I honestly believe there's a difference between a non conformist and an attention whore. I don't care if someone is an attention whore, just don't expect me not to notice when they are intentionally out to draw attention to themselves. The Naked Cowboy is fun and cool (and cold I suppose), but of course I'm gonna notice. ;)

[Magdlyn]

When I get dressed up for a show or nice dinner out, my clothes tend towards the crushed velvet or Indian tunic look, I guess that's hippie-ish

Oh whoops posted before I saw yours, Puck. let me read

[Magdlyn]

I honestly believe there's a difference between a non conformist and an attention whore.


and your dd? is she an attention whore (seems like such a harsh epithet) or just a lovable "flake?"

am I a flake?

[dancer_rnb]

I will admit I am a bit of an attention whore. That's why I join performance groups, in addition to recreational groups.

If I denied it, I'd be a jerk.....

[Christina]

I don't think that I'm an attention whore but my work used to involve so much public speaking and dealing with the press that I got very used to getting attention and after a while I started to assume that whatever I said publicly would get some notice and be taken seriously. Looking back, taking my credibility for granted was not the most attractive character trait and was more than a little egotistical.

[Uthgar the Brazen]

I don't mind colourful and out loud stuff. I've just learned that if I'm perusing the occult section of the bookstore (what's left of it since the bloody christians started flooding the place...) and see a certain outfit approaching it's time to go look at something else before I get drawn into a mostly one-sided conversation about goddess this 'n that and blessed be and blah blah blah.

This is mostly because I'm a curmudgeon, but also a large factor is that, coming from the southern United States, I consider starting up conversations about religion and politics with complete strangers to be extremely rude.

[sidhe]

Last Thursday night, I saw the rarest of creatures in the bookstore - the African American Pagan.

Thing was, unlike most A-A Pagans I've seen, they neither looked very professional, nor hippie. He had on Sean John, low slung shorts, a wife beater (doubtless, high quality), a puffy FUBU jacket, do-rag, and untied Timberlands, with his books on shamanism and santeria tucked neatly under his arm.

I just found that to be a fascinating moment.

[Goldie]

What a bunch of fashionistas!(sp?) You know your stuff.

Around here, I could wear designer shoes and carry a designer bag and only a handful of women would know it.
I tend to dress up if I'm going out and that gets me more attention than if i were pierced, tattooed and had multi colored hair.

If you are dressed sharply, you turn heads, here. If I were in Seattle, I'd simply blend in. I think a lot of it is regional.

[Brianna]

I really don't care how people dress. Where I live we have all kinds and I enjoy it.
TBH, most of the time you can't tell the uni prof from the hippie hitch-hiker, which is kind of interesting. Rich people dress like poor farmers and with the 2 universities here, you get every sort of fashion from the students. A lot of women around here dress white-witchy more than goth-like witchy. I enjoy the diversity. :)

White witches are a joke. I eat fluffbunnies for supper. :evil:

[Brianna]

Last Thursday night, I saw the rarest of creatures in the bookstore - the African American Pagan.

Thing was, unlike most A-A Pagans I've seen, they neither looked very professional, nor hippie. He had on Sean John, low slung shorts, a wife beater (doubtless, high quality), a puffy FUBU jacket, do-rag, and untied Timberlands, with his books on shamanism and santeria tucked neatly under his arm.

I just found that to be a fascinating moment.

hehehe. Voodoo r us? :)

[Goldie]

White witches are a joke. I eat fluffbunnies for supper. :evil:

I have no opinion. I don't believe in woo.

I just think it's fun to watch how people choose to adorn themselves.

I also love fashion shows and such. Fashion of all sorts interests me. :)

[Brianna]

and your dd? is she an attention whore (seems like such a harsh epithet) or just a lovable "flake?"

am I a flake?

I have to admit, I get very judgemental. I tend to judge people on the sound of their voice though.

I guess this is where this picks at me.

[Brianna]

I have no opinion. I don't believe in woo.

I just think it's fun to watch how people choose to adorn themselves.

I also love fashion shows and such. Fashion of all sorts interests me. :)

Eh, that is ok. It is fun to watch people.


But what do you mean by woo?

[Izmir Stinger]

Last Thursday night, I saw the rarest of creatures in the bookstore - the African American Pagan

...witith his books on shamanism and santeria tucked neatly under his arm.

He may have been a Santerian (who do not consider themselves pagans), most of whom are black or Hispanic in the US.

hehehe. Voodoo r us? :)

Santeria and Vodun both spread to the US via slave trade, and both have some similar cultural residue from slaves modifying practices to disguise them as Christian, but they are otherwise unrelated religions - one originating in South America and the other in Africa.

[Brianna]

He may have been a Santerian (who do not consider themselves pagans), most of whom are black or Hispanic in the US.

Sounds Pagan to me. :)

Santería is a syncretic religion of Caribbean origin. Also known as Regla de Ocha, La Regla Lucumi, or Lukumi.[1][2] From Spanish meaning "one who 'has', 'makes' or 'works' the spirit".[3] The priests are known as Babaolorishas, "fathers of orisha", and priestesses as Iyalorishas, "mothers of orisha", and serve as the junior Ile or second in the hierarchical religious structure. The Babalorishas and Iyalorishas are referred to as "Santeros(as)" and if they function as diviners of the Orishas they can be considered Oriates. The highest level of achievement is to become a priest of Ifá (ee-fah). Ifa Priests receive Orunmila who is the Orisha of Prophecy, Wisdom and all Knowledge. Ifa Priests are known by their titles such as "Babalawo" or "Father Who Knows the Secrets." In the recent years there have been initiations of "Iyanifa" or "Mother of Destiny," but their role as Ifa diviners is not generally accepted per the Odu Ifa Irete Intelu which states women cannot be in the presence of Olofin or Igba Iwa Odu and therefore cannot be initiated as divining priestesses. Instead women are initiates as Apetebi Ifa and are considered senior in Ifa to all but fully initiated Babalawos. The most well known Orishas are; Elegua,[4] Oggún, Oshún, Changó, Oyá, Obatalá, Yemayá and Orula. These are the most common Orisha names, especially in Cuba.

[Brianna]

Santeria and Vodun both spread to the US via slave trade, and both have some similar cultural residue from slaves modifying practices to disguise them as Christian, but they are otherwise unrelated religions - one originating in South America and the other in Africa.

It is actually Hoodoo. :) It isn't one of the ones I come into contact with often but I do have a book about it. I meet the author. Lovely black woman who is from Chicago.

[Izmir Stinger]

Sounds Pagan to me. :)

I generally let people define their own religious beliefs rather than labeling them. According to various definitions of others, I am a Pagan, a Christian heretic or a Satanist.

[Brianna]

I generally let people define their own religious beliefs rather than labeling them. According to various definitions of others, I am a Pagan, a heretic or a Satanist.

:) I generally can't put a label on mine because it is uniquely my own. I just refer to myself as pagan because it is easier then explaining that I am a witch but not Wicca. An agnostic but not atheist. A Heathen but not Norse. I however will clump anyone who isn't Christian, Islamic, or Jewish into the pagan category.

[Izmir Stinger]

I however will clump anyone who isn't Christian, Islamic, or Jewish into the pagan category.

That would be 46% of the world population, including me and most people on this board. That makes pagan a fairly watered down term.

[Goldie]

I have to admit, I get very judgemental. I tend to judge people on the sound of their voice though.

I guess this is where this picks at me.

Anything supernatural. I'm an atheist.

I know many do...but white or dark witches...doesn't matter to me...'cept thney dress cool. ;)

[Puck]

and your dd? is she an attention whore (seems like such a harsh epithet) or just a lovable "flake?"

am I a flake?

She's admitted that she gets tickled when someone that looks like a fundy sees her tittoo and reacts to it. I'll let her speak for herself beyond that.

Look I'm a bit of an attention whore myself. I refuse to follow whatever the latest fashion is, and I have been known to leave the house in tye-dye. And I almost always have my peace symbol necklace on, even with nicer clothes. With it I also wear diamonds. I suppose it's a matter of degree, I'm not going to don the whole 'garb' to make some statement. I like a bit of the goth look too, but I don't feel the need to wear a whole costume. Those that wish to wear a look are fine by me, but I don't want to hear them complain that everyone is starting at them.

And Magdlyn, if you are a flake, you're a lovable one. I never said I didn't like flakes. ;) I don't mind most attention whores, so long as they aren't the demanding type that insists on being the dramatic center of attention wherever they go, and then whine because people look at them like they would a huge bug. I think most of us have a bit of attention whore in us. Some just more so than others, and some, less.

[Goldie]

Eh, that is ok. It is fun to watch people.


But what do you mean by woo?

Sorry i meant to quote this ^


Anything supernatural. I'm an atheist.

I know many do...but white or dark witches...doesn't matter to me...'cept thney dress cool. ;)

[Hex]

I however will clump anyone who isn't Christian, Islamic, or Jewish into the pagan category.

Well Voodoun (or the variant spellings) is a syncristic religion based on African practices & worldview, Roman Catholic practices and worldview, and indigenous Caribbean practices and worldviews. Is that pagan if it embraces some of the Christian stuff? If so, then where's your threshold? Are Holiness Snake Handlers Christian or pagan? :dunno:


As for the general discussion on voodoun, we not only get it from the slave trade route, but also through numerous emigration waves from Haiti (and other Caribbean islanders) since the 1970's, and these effected many of the East Coast US cities. So there's been a modern infusion; it's not like it's just from 150+ years ago ...



And, Bri, as much as I might consider my sort of views as pagan, I'd never lump Hindus and Buddhists in with me ... Waaaay to much structure to be like me ...

(Besides, if you look at the Hindus as simply being a continuation of Brahmanism, then you've a religion that's likely far older than the Abramic religions; they should be lumping us pagans in with the Abrahmics as 'upstarts', huh? ;))

[Pendaric]

So, sorry if this comes across as patronising or condescending, but I'm genuinely curious.

Do you guys who consider yourselves witches believe that you can do stuff like cast spells and so forth? With verifiable results? Or have I been watching too much Harry Potter?

[Izmir Stinger]

And, Bri, as much as I might consider my sort of views as pagan, I'd never lump Hindus and Buddhists in with me ... Waaaay to much structure to be like me

It also includes Traditional Chinese religion, all native tribal religions, Jainism, Sikhism, Zoroastrianism, Shinto, Bah'ai, Humanists and every irreligious person. Thats a whole lot of pagans who have almost nothing in common besides not worshiping Yahweh.

[Brianna]

Hex, Izmir I can lump people however I like. I am CLEARLY over generalizing.

I honestly do NOT focus on labels. Call yourself whatever you want, I'll categorize people however I choose. Doesn't mean I am right, doesn't mean I am wrong, or even care. I think people in general get so caught up on what it means to be called one thing, they forget it really does NOT matter to some of us. Your bones still crunch when chewed upon.

[Hex]

Hex, Izmir I can lump people however I like. I am CLEARLY over generalizing.

I honestly do NOT focus on labels. Call yourself whatever you want, I'll categorize people however I choose. Doesn't mean I am right, doesn't mean I am wrong, or even care. I think people in general get so caught up on what it means to be called one thing, they forget it really does NOT matter to some of us. Your bones still crunch when chewed upon.

Hey, I was just wondering what your definition included, since it seemed way broad to me ...

It's just that since you're using a term that other people use, when you use it broadly and other folks use it in more fine-grained terms, it's bound to lead to issues of misunderstanding.

[Brianna]

So, sorry if this comes across as patronising or condescending, but I'm genuinely curious.

Do you guys who consider yourselves witches believe that you can do stuff like cast spells and so forth? With verifiable results? Or have I been watching too much Harry Potter?

You've been watching too much Harry Potter.

One very popular feminist author from the 70s, Starhawk I believe, wrote:

A witch is a woman who is control of her own personal power.

Someone correct me if I am wrong. I can't find the quote.

[Brianna]

Hey, I was just wondering what your definition included, since it seemed way broad to me ...

It's just that since you're using a term that other people use, when you use it broadly and other folks use it in more fine-grained terms, it's bound to lead to issues of misunderstanding.

Eh, the only time I actually discuss labels is on secular forums. (IIDB and here.)
No where else has it ever come up in conversation. I was being over general. I am well aware of the fact I tend to make up my own definitions for words.

[Pendaric]

You've been watching too much Harry Potter.

One very popular feminist author from the 70s, Starhawk I believe, wrote:

A witch is a woman who is control of her own personal power.

Someone correct me if I am wrong. I can't find the quote.

So is there nothing 'woo' about it then? By that definition, is any self confident woman a witch?

[Brianna]

So is there nothing 'woo' about it then? By that definition, is any self confident woman a witch?

I think she also said, to be a witch, all one has to do is pronounce one's self as a witch.

Woo is much more New Age Wiccan or Neopaganism.

It all depends on who you talk to.

Rightly said by this definition, men can not be witches. Which bothers a lot of males. Though pagan festivals have a general lacking of men who weren't drug there by their wives.

[Christina]

Starhawk is very active in political and social justice causes in the Bay area so although I don't know her, groups that I've been part of worked on several of the same things as she was. She was completely focused and pragmatic in that context and a great organizer. I can do without all of the woo but if it motivates anyone to go out and do something with it that creates tangible results that aren't for their direct benefit then I'm all for it. I feel the same way about most religions.

[Hex]

Do you guys who consider yourselves witches believe that you can do stuff like cast spells and so forth? With verifiable results? Or have I been watching too much Harry Potter?

What, to fly about and go invisible and such? :wizard:
If I could do that, I'd not be working, but off robbing banks and such (Yeah, I know <FaithinBuffy> "That would be wrong </FaithinBuffy>, but I'm only human) ... :rolleyes:


Much of what's in spells and such for me is what Bronislaw Malinowski touched on in his Rational Mastery by Man of His Surroundings. In here, the crux of it was that the 'magic' that gets used by the islanders Malinowski studied was used to try and induce activities or actions that would work in concert with the human actions. A spell to grow food couldn't just be cast on a garden and the next day there would be food, rather the spells would help to entice the right amount of rain that would assure a payoff for the farmer who went and planted and tended his crops. In here, the magical worldview is a way to try to mitigate the aspects of the world that are left to chance.

So no, to answer your question in a nutshell, nothing flashy or amazing. If I'm sick I might do something to help me heal - but I'll also be going to my doctor's office ... ;)

As for verifiable results ... If you haven't yet, check out my Skeptical Divination (http://www.rationalpagans.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=500) thread over at Rational Pagans. I'm still unsure with a whole lot of it what might be influenced by magic or supernatural entities and how much might be coincidence, chance, or the all-too-human desire to find patterns in chaos ...

[sidhe]

You've been watching too much Harry Potter.

One very popular feminist author from the 70s, Starhawk I believe, wrote:

A witch is a woman who is control of her own personal power.

Someone correct me if I am wrong. I can't find the quote.

I think that's right, but I'm away from my personal library right now. :P

All magick, witchcraft, etc. really is is an exercise in Jungian psychology. When you ask Lugh for assistance with a job interview, as he's clever, skilled, and etc., you're really asking the Lugh-archetype within you to stand up and speak at the interview, communicating that you're skilled and clever enough to do the job. Similarly, if you asked Hermes to aid you with a speech, it would be speaking to the communicator-archetype.

Of course, Jung is too "woo" for some people, but in effect that's all it is.

[Goldie]

Your bones still crunch when chewed upon.

lol Your way of saying we all put our pant's on one leg at a time?:p:D

[Pendaric]

I think that's right, but I'm away from my personal library right now. :P

All magick, witchcraft, etc. really is is an exercise in Jungian psychology. When you ask Lugh for assistance with a job interview, as he's clever, skilled, and etc., you're really asking the Lugh-archetype within you to stand up and speak at the interview, communicating that you're skilled and clever enough to do the job. Similarly, if you asked Hermes to aid you with a speech, it would be speaking to the communicator-archetype.

Of course, Jung is too "woo" for some people, but in effect that's all it is.

I can grok that. Really then, it's not a religion in this context. It's just a way of looking at things that doesn't require a supernatural belief.

Am I right in saying then that you don't believe that 'Lugh' or 'Hermes' actually exist?

[sidhe]

I can grok that. Really then, it's not a religion in this context. It's just a way of looking at things that doesn't require a supernatural belief.

Am I right in saying then that you don't believe that 'Lugh' or 'Hermes' actually exist?

Define "exist".

Actually, you don't want to have this conversation. Not with me. Because I'll admit I believe things that are totally irrational, and I'll also tell you I don't give a damn that they don't make sense, and ask why it matters to you, as it has no bearing on your life whatsoever. :evil:

[Brianna]

So no, to answer your question in a nutshell, nothing flashy or amazing. If I'm sick I might do something to help me heal - but I'll also be going to my doctor's office ... ;)



This too. :D

[Brianna]

lol Your way of saying we all put our pant's on one leg at a time?:p:D

Yes. Pass the Ketchup. :D

[Uthgar the Brazen]

If I could do the Harry Potter woo, humanity would be doomed. Voldemort was a crass auteur, the Ed Wood of woo.

"Wait'll they get a load of me! Oop, oop!"

My view is most similar to sidhe's: magical practice is a way to organize the self, focus most where I need in extraordinary circumstances, etc. I fully accept it could all be rubbish, but since it's a very personal issue and not about bringing the heathen masses to heel, I don't worry about that so much. I needn't justify nor "prove" my methods of navigating the chaos of self awareness. ;)

[Brianna]

Define "exist".

Actually, you don't want to have this conversation. Not with me. Because I'll admit I believe things that are totally irrational, and I'll also tell you I don't give a damn that they don't make sense, and ask why it matters to you, as it has no bearing on your life whatsoever. :evil:

Go for it. I dare you! :D

[Uthgar the Brazen]

And I was writing all of this right after sidhe's earlier post, so that's just...mag...er, creepy. :D

[Christina]

I can see the usefulness of it when wiccan rituals are seen as a way to symbolize setting your intent in your mind and focusing yourself to accomplishing something, but when it comes to the point of believing that they're shooting cones of energy out into the universe or chanting spells that are going to have some tangible repercussions beyond what they create with their own hands, my woo meter goes into the red.

[Brianna]

And I was writing all of this right after sidhe's earlier post, so that's just...mag...er, creepy. :D

Synchronicity? Mahhahah.

[Brianna]

I can see the usefulness of it when wiccan rituals are seen as a way to symbolize setting your intent in your mind and focusing yourself to accomplishing something, but when it comes to the point of believing that they're shooting cones of energy out into the universe that is going to have some tangible repercussions beyond what they create with their own hands, my woo meter goes into the red.

Gee, my woo is always red. :evil:

[Pendaric]

Define "exist".

Actually, you don't want to have this conversation. Not with me. Because I'll admit I believe things that are totally irrational, and I'll also tell you I don't give a damn that they don't make sense, and ask why it matters to you, as it has no bearing on your life whatsoever. :evil:

Exist. Like, have a distinct personality and consciousness in the same way that I do, or you do. Someone you could have a conversation with, if they were that way inclined.

I like having conversations with people with different views. I'm far more likely to learn something than just having a conversation with someone who agrees with me.

[Uthgar the Brazen]

I can see the usefulness of it when wiccan rituals are seen as a way to symbolize setting your intent in your mind and focusing yourself to accomplishing something, but when it comes to the point of believing that they're shooting cones of energy out into the universe or chanting spells that are going to have some tangible repercussions beyond what they create with their own hands, my woo meter goes into the red.

I tend in this direction. I believe that the cones of energy go out into the universe (as it exists within my perceptions) as long as it is useful for me to do so. Once the cone-casting starts to look habitual, I toss it until (and unless) it later becomes necessary to a specific end.

[sidhe]

I can see the usefulness of it when wiccan rituals are seen as a way to symbolize setting your intent in your mind and focusing yourself to accomplishing something, but when it comes to the point of believing that they're shooting cones of energy out into the universe or chanting spells that are going to have some tangible repercussions beyond what they create with their own hands, my woo meter goes into the red.

Yeah, but if you don't believe it, it won't work. :D

Seriously, it would be like going "I'm going to pour life-energy into this water, so that my basil plant grows high and healthy, but I don't think it actually does anything." You're already remembering to water the plant, so what's the bloody point of doing anything more?

[sidhe]

Exist. Like, have a distinct personality and consciousness in the same way that I do, or you do. Someone you could have a conversation with, if they were that way inclined.

I like having conversations with people with different views. I'm far more likely to learn something than just having a conversation with someone who agrees with me.

Of course they exist. Why would you ask them for help if they didn't, or listen to their advice? :P

Do they exist outside your head? Not a clue. I don't even know how big my head may be.

[Pendaric]

Of course they exist. Why would you ask them for help if they didn't, or listen to their advice? :P

Do they exist outside your head? Not a clue. I don't even know how big my head may be.

I think I've seen your picture somewhere before. Your head is vaguely normal shaped and sized, if a little peculiar looking :evil:

[sidhe]

I think I've seen your picture somewhere before. Your head is vaguely normal shaped and sized, if a little peculiar looking :evil:

Dude, I have to have hats custom-made. My head is not normal sized. I wear an 8 3/8 hat. :P

[Christina]

Seriously, it would be like going "I'm going to pour life-energy into this water, so that my basil plant grows high and healthy, but I don't think it actually does anything." You're already remembering to water the plant, so what's the bloody point of doing anything more?

That was pretty much my attitude. It can't hurt, but you better water your plants it just in case. I'm the type that will try anything a few times to get first hand experience with what they're talking about, or at least try to. It's more like 'walking in their shoes' than actually believing it. There's certainly something that occurs during rituals that you can feel and if you add in the right drum beat and it's almost hypnotic and the image of the cone works well with it all as a huge release at the end, but no part of me believed that we had just done something tangible aside from how it felt. Some of it was silly, some of it was interesting, but it mostly felt like an acid trip combined with a renaissance fair. Dancing around a fire in the woods on a full moon night has got to be fun, magic or not.

[Goldie]

Sidhe is a bobble-head.
Neener neener - noo-noo! :D

[Brianna]

Exist. Like, have a distinct personality and consciousness in the same way that I do, or you do. Someone you could have a conversation with, if they were that way inclined.

I like having conversations with people with different views. I'm far more likely to learn something than just having a conversation with someone who agrees with me.

So you talk to yourself right?

[Brianna]

I tend in this direction. I believe that the cones of energy go out into the universe (as it exists within my perceptions) as long as it is useful for me to do so. Once the cone-casting starts to look habitual, I toss it until (and unless) it later becomes necessary to a specific end.

I don't send energy out into the universe. Too vague. I drop into the Earth.

[Pendaric]

That was pretty much my attitude. It can't hurt, but you better water your plants it just in case. I'm the type that will try anything a few times to get first hand experience with what they're talking about, or at least try to. It's more like 'walking in their shoes' than actually believing it. There's certainly something that occurs during rituals that you can feel and if you add in the right drum beat and it's almost hypnotic and the image of the cone works well with it all as a huge release at the end, but no part of me believed that we had just done something tangible aside from how it felt. Some of it was silly, some of it was interesting, but it mostly felt like an acid trip combined with a renaissance fair. Dancing around a fire in the woods on a full moon night has got to be fun, magic or not.

Yes, I'm all for a good party, but there's no need to fool yourself it's anything more than that.

I've done the walking on red hot coals in bare feet thing a few times at Anthony Robbins events. They try to dress it up a bit in terms of energies and woo stuff, but it isn't, it's just basic counter-intuitive applied physics.

But when you get a crowd of people in to it, you can feel the atmosphere in the room, and if you want to it's easy to read more in to it than is there.

It works, in the sense that it is an exercise that gives you self confidence further down the track. Physics or not, it takes a bit of courage to take the step on to the glowing coals, and later on you can look back and say that if you had the courage and self confidence to do that, then you can tackle whatever is in front of you.

Anyways, it's a party atmosphere and it's a blast. Slightly OT, but I would recommend Tony Robbins events to anyone. I know some people don't like them, and there are a few bits I'm not comfortable with myself, but in general they're a lot of fun and give you a lot of useful tools if you enter in to them with the right attitude.

[sidhe]

I don't send energy out into the universe. Too vague. I drop into the Earth.

It'd be like shooting randomly into the sky to try to get some meat. You might hit a bird, but you'd do better if you aimed.

And grounding FTW.

[Pendaric]

So you talk to yourself right?

Not really, no. What did I say that implied that?

[Brianna]

I have been singing the Disney song... Do you believe in magic?

My roommate has it stuck in his head now... hahahahahaha.

Seriously why can't you allow yourself to believe in something? What is your problem?

[Brianna]

Not really, no. What did I say that implied that?

You didn't.

I was trying to point something out. You are fail. Talk to yourself and find out why! :D

[Pendaric]

I have been singing the Disney song... Do you believe in magic?

My roommate has it stuck in his head now... hahahahahaha.

Seriously why can't you allow yourself to believe in something? What is your problem?

I believe in plenty of things, if the evidence takes me in that direction.

[Hex]

This too. :D

:D

IMHO, it's important to point out that (with my personal and anecdotal evidence, mind) "pagan /= stupid" when it comes to recognizing the 'power' of the supernatural.

Not like some Jehovah's Witnesses I could point to that need court orders to allow doctors to give their kids life-saving blood transfusions or other faith-healers that let their kids die of treatable diabetes whilst they keep on praying ... :rolleyes:

[Brianna]

I believe in plenty of things, if the evidence takes me in that direction.

I still think you have a problem. What is your proof? Where is your evidence?

[Pendaric]

I still think you have a problem. What is your proof? Where is your evidence?

Proof and evidence of what, specifically?

I surely have some problems, everybody alive does. But nothing germane to this thread.

[Magdlyn]

And I was writing all of this right after sidhe's earlier post, so that's just...mag...er, creepy. :D

I am not creepy!

[Goldie]

Prayers, vibes, energy, magic spells... are basically thoughts and wishes, and as a wise person once told me: "Wish in one hand and shit in the other and see which one gets full first."

I don't need to believe in anything other-worldly. I believe in reality. I believe in love. I believe in myself.

Rather than pray for you, I think my time would be better spent doing something that would actually help you.
That's my outlook, fwiw.

[sidhe]

I have been singing the Disney song... Do you believe in magic?

My roommate has it stuck in his head now... hahahahahaha.

Seriously why can't you allow yourself to believe in something? What is your problem?

^ This, ffs.

I once saw someone reduce love to a series of explainable chemical reactions in reaction to physical and mental desirability.

Love. Y'know, why half the decent poetry and music of the entirety of history was written? The Odyssey is nothing but a love story - Odysseus just wants to get home to his wife. Same with the Iliad. Reduce art to chemical reactions that could be altered with the right medication or stimulation.

WTF? Just enjoy something, don't analyze it until it's no fun anymore.

I've firewalked plenty of times. I know, rationally, I could just charge across the coals. But I can't. I burn my feet mildly if I do that. I have to prepare, raise "energy", etc. Then I can walk across the coals.

[Brianna]

Proof and evidence of what, specifically?

I surely have some problems, everybody alive does. But nothing germane to this thread.


You can't prove anything you don't believe in.

[Pendaric]

I've firewalked plenty of times. I know, rationally, I could just charge across the coals. But I can't. I burn my feet mildly if I do that. I have to prepare, raise "energy", etc. Then I can walk across the coals.

You can firewalk without preparing. I've done it several times.

The lack of conductivity of heat of the wood used does not change regardless of your state.

[sidhe]

You can firewalk without preparing. I've done it several times.

The lack of conductivity of heat of the wood used does not change regardless of your state.

Nice quote edit. I'm aware of that. I watch Mythbusters. I said that I personally can't.

[Brianna]

Prayers, vibes, energy, magic spells... are basically thoughts and wishes, and as a wise person once told me: "Wish in one hand and shit in the other and see which one gets full first."

I don't need to believe in anything other-worldly. I believe in reality. I believe in love. I believe in myself.

Rather than pray for you, I think my time would be better spent doing something that would actually help you.
That's my outlook, fwiw.

See, Goldie believes in something. She smells like sunshine and win.

for real and for serious, what difference does it make about what I think about. :)

I have always said "trust in allah but tie your camel tight."

[Goldie]

See, Goldie believes in something. She smells like sunshine and win.

for real and for serious, what difference does it make about what I think about. :)

I have always said "trust in allah but tie your camel tight."

Cool! Thank you!:D

[Pendaric]

Nice quote edit. I'm aware of that. I watch Mythbusters. I said that I personally can't.

Sorry, wasn't trying to do anything other than respond to a specific bit. I take your point (but I still think you wouldn't get burned regardless).

[Hex]

I can see the usefulness of it when wiccan rituals are seen as a way to symbolize setting your intent in your mind and focusing yourself to accomplishing something, but when it comes to the point of believing that they're shooting cones of energy out into the universe or chanting spells that are going to have some tangible repercussions beyond what they create with their own hands, my woo meter goes into the red.

Well, you could get into the psychological/physiological aspects of the placebo effect with this. For about 1 in 4 people, tell them they're getting medicine and their body reacts like it is, even if it's a sugar pill. Belief in this sense is (or can be) important ...


There's certainly something that occurs during rituals that you can feel and if you add in the right drum beat and it's almost hypnotic and the image of the cone works well with it all as a huge release at the end, but no part of me believed that we had just done something tangible aside from how it felt. Some of it was silly, some of it was interesting, but it mostly felt like an acid trip combined with a renaissance fair. Dancing around a fire in the woods on a full moon night has got to be fun, magic or not.

And this experiential aspect is something you can feel. Be it endorphins, or ionized air before/after thunderstorms, the winds that blow through just right and prickle up the hairs on your arms and the back of your neck, or anything else, it's something that you -can- take in with your senses that you don't usually get. And, if you're doing a ritual for a specific purpose and you're intent on that, then it seems like the experience gets heightened. Maybe that 'makes it more real'? I'm not sure.

But I do know that it factors in on a whole lot of levels. And if you bring in rhythmic/hypnotic musics, exhaustive dancing, demanding physical poses, sleep or food deprivation, or, of course, any number of drugs, you can heighten this even more ...

Yes, I'm all for a good party, but there's no need to fool yourself it's anything more than that.

I've done the walking on red hot coals in bare feet thing a few times at Anthony Robbins events. They try to dress it up a bit in terms of energies and woo stuff, but it isn't, it's just basic counter-intuitive applied physics.

I'm always wondering about how much woo is woo and how much woo is just an odd application of science that we don't recognize. The Harry Potter stuff isn't woo, it's WOO, so we needn't debate that, but for the reasonable magics (Can I say that here? :tomato:), I wonder ...

And, we fool ourselves all the time ... Like Americans who are still under the delusion that we live in a democracy ... :dunno:

[Brianna]

Sorry, wasn't trying to do anything other than respond to a specific bit. I take your point (but I still think you wouldn't get burned regardless).

You can think all you want, but can you feel?
How do you feel?

Hooked on a feeling... :D

[Brianna]

Leave it to Hex. :D



http://www.dutchhexsign.com/graphics/StudioHexSm.jpg

[sidhe]

you can think all you want, but can you feel?
How do you feel?

Hooked on a feeling... :d

ooga-chaka! Ooga-chaka!

[Pendaric]

'kay guys, now you've lost me :D

[Pendaric]

Well, you could get into the psychological/physiological aspects of the placebo effect with this. For about 1 in 4 people, tell them they're getting medicine and their body reacts like it is, even if it's a sugar pill. Belief in this sense is (or can be) important ...




And this experiential aspect is something you can feel. Be it endorphins, or ionized air before/after thunderstorms, the winds that blow through just right and prickle up the hairs on your arms and the back of your neck, or anything else, it's something that you -can- take in with your senses that you don't usually get. And, if you're doing a ritual for a specific purpose and you're intent on that, then it seems like the experience gets heightened. Maybe that 'makes it more real'? I'm not sure.

But I do know that it factors in on a whole lot of levels. And if you bring in rhythmic/hypnotic musics, exhaustive dancing, demanding physical poses, sleep or food deprivation, or, of course, any number of drugs, you can heighten this even more ...



I'm always wondering about how much woo is woo and how much woo is just an odd application of science that we don't recognize. The Harry Potter stuff isn't woo, it's WOO, so we needn't debate that, but for the reasonable magics (Can I say that here? :tomato:), I wonder ...

And, we fool ourselves all the time ... Like Americans who are still under the delusion that we live in a democracy ... :dunno:

I totally get all this, and agree with it.

[Brianna]

'kay guys, now you've lost me :D

Great. Someone go find Pendaric!

Missing old guy who likes football wondering the underground of London... *airhorn sirens*

Mostly Pendaric, I am messing with you.

:) Though I am interested to know why you don't believe in anything.

[Christina]

But I do know that it factors in on a whole lot of levels. And if you bring in rhythmic/hypnotic musics, exhaustive dancing, demanding physical poses, sleep or food deprivation, or, of course, any number of drugs, you can heighten this even more ...

I think having spent years going to Dead shows probably colored how it affected me. I had more than my share of experience with wild, hypnotic, drug-induced music and dancing that it didn't feel particularly out of the ordinary to me and I didn't attribute it to anything other than 'yep that's what happens and it sure is fun", especially since I wasn't tripping at the time.

Some of it is also my personal situation. 'Believing' in things can get me in all sorts of trouble ; )

[sidhe]

Sorry, wasn't trying to do anything other than respond to a specific bit. I take your point (but I still think you wouldn't get burned regardless).

And, intellectually, I know that. In practice, it doesn't work that way. My feet aren't charred if I don't prepare, but they're definitely sunburned.

[Pendaric]

Great. Someone go find Pendaric!

Missing old guy who likes football wondering the underground of London... *airhorn sirens*

Mostly Pendaric, I am messing with you.

:) Though I am interested to know why you don't believe in anything.

Less of the old. I'm 40, and I don't live in London...

I believe in stuff that I have sufficient evidence for. There's a difference between believing in some things and believing in anything.

Why should I believe things that have no evidence for them?

[Izmir Stinger]

Dude, I have to have hats custom-made. My head is not normal sized. I wear an 8 3/8 hat. :P

Holy crap! Everything above 7 3/4 is considered very large!

[Brianna]

Less of the old. I'm 40, and I don't live in London...

I believe in stuff that I have sufficient evidence for. There's a difference between believing in some things and believing in anything.

Why should I believe things that have no evidence for them?

I know. I was referring to the Morning Creston thread.

Anywho... Why should I believe in Evolution then?

[Pendaric]

I know. I was referring to the Morning Creston thread.

Anywho... Why should I believe in Evolution then?

You're talking to the wrong guy. I'm not one of the evo crew.

I mean, I accept evolution because of the evidence I'm aware of, but I'm not one of the experts that hang out on these forums. If you really want answers to that, best go cop one of them.

Psst... It's Mornington Crescent...

[Christina]

Anywho... Why should I believe in Evolution then?

She's a witch! Burn Her!

Or better yet, send her post to the Science forum :evil:

[Izmir Stinger]

This thread snowballed fast. How many topics have we got going?

[Brianna]

You're talking to the wrong guy. I'm not one of the evo crew.

I mean, I accept evolution because of the evidence I'm aware of, but I'm not one of the experts that hang out on these forums. If you really want answers to that, best go cop one of them.

Psst... It's Mornington Crescent...

I wasn't asking for expert answers Pen.

I want you to answer why you would believe in something that you can not prove.
thanks. I was just too lazy to look at the thread title!

[Christina]

We can make Pendaric do some work and lock it and split it, and then we can all start "Why the fuck was my post moved" threads all at once.

[Brianna]

This thread snowballed fast. How many topics have we got going?

One. :evil:

[Pendaric]

I wasn't asking for expert answers Pen.

I want you to answer why you would believe in something that you can not prove.
thanks. I was just too lazy to look at the thread title!

Sufficient numbers of evidences count as proof beyond a reasonable doubt. I've had sufficient evidences presented to be at that point.

You want me to believe something, provide me with sufficient objective reasons that back it up and you have a strong chance. But I won't believe anything just for fun.

[Pendaric]

We can make Pendaric do some work and lock it and split it, and then we can all start "Why the fuck was my post moved" threads all at once.

Nah, I'm not doing work today.

[sidhe]

Sufficient numbers of evidences count as proof beyond a reasonable doubt. I've had sufficient evidences presented to be at that point.

You want me to believe something, provide me with sufficient objective reasons that back it up and you have a strong chance. But I won't believe anything just for fun.

Out of curiosity, do you believe in romance or love?

If so, what's your objective evidence?

[Christina]

Nah, I'm not doing work today.

Damn lazy mods ;)

[Hex]

I believe in stuff that I have sufficient evidence for. There's a difference between believing in some things and believing in anything.

Why should I believe things that have no evidence for them?

Ooooh ...

Wait, maybe I see the disconnect in the worldviews here. For many people the experience is the proof. Even if you've never made a superconductor (or any other given scientific thing that you believe in, as an example), you can easily be made to believe that they work if you ride a mag-lev train, right?

Well here all the reading on the theories of spell-work and magical worldviews merely 'primes' you for the experiential input. In my classes I talk about the 'theory' part as '2nd-hand Belief'. You hear about it being possible, or as an explanation for an occurrence from someone else, like in a testimonial where they talk about how medical science couldn't cure them and the doctors gave them a week or so to live, but then <insert supernatural occurrence> saved them and now they're all better and standing there in front of you as proof.

That doesn't mean that you automatically believe, but it plants a seed, if you will, of possibility. Then, if you experience the same sort of occurrence, you have personal proof; thus you have '1st-hand Belief', and you'll be the one out there giving your testimonial and planting those seeds of possibility in other people's brains ...


So here, experience = evidence. Repeated experience = more evidence.

What more proof do you need if the system/understanding/explanation works for your observed occurrence?

Sufficient numbers of evidences count as proof beyond a reasonable doubt. I've had sufficient evidences presented to be at that point.

You want me to believe something, provide me with sufficient objective reasons that back it up and you have a strong chance. But I won't believe anything just for fun.

Right, but here the proof is personal, not objective. Hence my Skeptical Divination experiment thread ... I'm intruiged by how the personal info stacks up against objective evidence, given the social nature of a lot of the magics ...

[Brianna]

Sufficient numbers of evidences count as proof beyond a reasonable doubt. I've had sufficient evidences presented to be at that point.

You want me to believe something, provide me with sufficient objective reasons that back it up and you have a strong chance. But I won't believe anything just for fun.

There is the problem. There is something wrong with you when you can't believe in something just for fun.

[Pendaric]

Out of curiosity, do you believe in romance or love?

If so, what's your objective evidence?

They are descriptors of feelings and atmospheres rather than tangible objects in their own right. You might as well ask if I believe in anger, or jealousy, or any other emotion. It's a different category to believing in the existence of a god or other sorts of beliefs.

I believe that people can form attachments with people which are strong enough to be defined as love. It's a concept that man has invented to describe that situation.

Romance is a mood setting. Again, it's a descriptor of something that isn't tangible.

[Pendaric]

There is the problem. There is something wrong with you when you can't believe in something just for fun.

I would think the opposite.

[Hex]

Leave it to Hex. :D



http://www.dutchhexsign.com/graphics/StudioHexSm.jpg

:cool:

[Christina]

There is the problem. There is something wrong with you when you can't believe in something just for fun.

Maybe it's not a trait that you like, but I think that saying that something is wrong with him sounds awfully fundamentalist to me.

[Brianna]

Maybe it's not a trait that you like, but I think that saying that something is wrong with him sounds awfully fundamentalist to me.

It can't be fundamentalist when I am just being the devil's advocate. :) I honestly don't care what anyone believes in or doesn't believe in.

But you know if it is posted on the internet it must be true!

[Pendaric]

Ooooh ...

Wait, maybe I see the disconnect in the worldviews here. For many people the experience is the proof. Even if you've never made a superconductor (or any other given scientific thing that you believe in, as an example), you can easily be made to believe that they work if you ride a mag-lev train, right?

Well here all the reading on the theories of spell-work and magical worldviews merely 'primes' you for the experiential input. In my classes I talk about the 'theory' part as '2nd-hand Belief'. You hear about it being possible, or as an explanation for an occurrence from someone else, like in a testimonial where they talk about how medical science couldn't cure them and the doctors gave them a week or so to live, but then <insert supernatural occurrence> saved them and now they're all better and standing there in front of you as proof.

That doesn't mean that you automatically believe, but it plants a seed, if you will, of possibility. Then, if you experience the same sort of occurrence, you have personal proof; thus you have '1st-hand Belief', and you'll be the one out there giving your testimonial and planting those seeds of possibility in other people's brains ...


So here, experience = evidence. Repeated experience = more evidence.

What more proof do you need if the system/understanding/explanation works for your observed occurrence?



Right, but here the proof is personal, not objective. Hence my Skeptical Divination experiment thread ... I'm intruiged by how the personal info stacks up against objective evidence, given the social nature of a lot of the magics ...

I get your point, but anecdotal evidence is very low on the scale of evidences as far as I'm concerned. Personal experience is higher, but knowing how people can be fooled by various things, or not understand fully what is happening to them and seek to explain it in other ways, it's not the be all and end all.

[Hex]

Why should I believe in Evolution then?

Precisely because there is a lot of objective evidence. And the theory fits the evidence (fossil, living, micro- & macro-changes) better than any of the other theories we've got out there.

Now, if you've personal experience with evolution and biological change that's better than evolution, then I want to hear that over a couple of beers! (of our own choosing, mind ;))

[sidhe]

They are descriptors of feelings and atmospheres rather than tangible objects in their own right. You might as well ask if I believe in anger, or jealousy, or any other emotion. It's a different category to believing in the existence of a god or other sorts of beliefs.

I believe that people can form attachments with people which are strong enough to be defined as love. It's a concept that man has invented to describe that situation.

Romance is a mood setting. Again, it's a descriptor of something that isn't tangible.

So, you do believe in things without objective evidence? Just because they make life more fun? ;)

I'm firmly of the opinion that the efforts by the major religions to put deity in a category of objective, tangible reality was a big fucking mistake.

[Hex]

I get your point, but anecdotal evidence is very low on the scale of evidences as far as I'm concerned. Personal experience is higher, but knowing how people can be fooled by various things, or not understand fully what is happening to them and seek to explain it in other ways, it's not the be all and end all.


But for some people it's enough. And one cohesive system that's comprehensive to fit lots and lots of explanations in is much, much easier than actually learning. :p

And when you run this back to places and times when the more scientific and objective knowledge was not so explicitly stated as what we have now, these systems were often the best representation ... :dunno:

And as sidhe noted, there are some social aspects of our social life as a homo sapiens sapiens that are really hard to quantify and tabulate. (Believe me here. Anthropologists have been trying to do just that since the 1870's or so ... :o)

[Pendaric]

So, you do believe in things without objective evidence? Just because they make life more fun? ;)

I'm firmly of the opinion that the efforts by the major religions to put deity in a category of objective, tangible reality was a big fucking mistake.

No, you're categorizing wrongly. Emotions and feelings are a different category of items than supernatural beings.

You're in to philosophy here, not science.

[Brianna]

Precisely because there is a lot of objective evidence. And the theory fits the evidence (fossil, living, micro- & macro-changes) better than any of the other theories we've got out there.

Now, if you've personal experience with evolution and biological change that's better than evolution, then I want to hear that over a couple of beers! (of our own choosing, mind ;))

I know, but it is still a valid point imo.

Oh, speaking of beer. Fat Tire is not bitter. :D It is what I call smooth.

[Pendaric]

But for some people it's enough. And one cohesive system that's comprehensive to fit lots and lots of explanations in is much, much easier than actually learning. :p

And when you run this back to places and times when the more scientific and objective knowledge was not so explicitly stated as what we have now, these systems were often the best representation ... :dunno:

And as sidhe noted, there are some social aspects of our social life as a homo sapiens sapiens that are really hard to quantify and tabulate. (Believe me here. Anthropologists have been trying to do just that since the 1870's or so ... :o)

Fine for those people. I think they're wrong, but that's up to them.

Doesn't make those systems right. Just means that people didn't know better at that time.

[Brianna]

This is what happens when you try to reason with insanity...

"I was plagued with insanity interrupted with long, painful stretches of sanity." - E. A. Poe.

[sidhe]

No, you're categorizing wrongly. Emotions and feelings are a different category of items than supernatural beings.

You're in to philosophy here, not science.

And supernatural beings are in a different category than, say, a football.

That's what I'm saying, at least. Provide proof that deity would by necessity have to obey the rules of existence that apply to Tiger Woods.

Tiger Woods being cited, of course, because it's almost Master's Week here, and he's pretty close to being g-d.

[Brianna]

No, you're categorizing wrongly. Emotions and feelings are a different category of items than supernatural beings.

You're in to philosophy here, not science.

I don't think so. Why does something have to be tangible to feel it?

[Pendaric]

And supernatural beings are in a different category than, say, a football.

That's what I'm saying, at least. Provide proof that deity would by necessity have to obey the rules of existence that apply to Tiger Woods.

Tiger Woods being cited, of course, because it's almost Master's Week here, and he's pretty close to being g-d.

You want to say the deity is just in your head and acknowledge he's not actually out there, then fine. You only need to provide sufficient proof for yourself for that.

You want to convince me of his existence, you have to provide more proof.

I'm willing to accept that a deity doesn't have to live by the same rules as Tiger Woods, but you're going to have to show me a hell of a lot of evidence to convince me it actually exists in the first place, on an extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence basis.

[Izmir Stinger]

There is the problem. There is something wrong with you when you can't believe in something just for fun.

That is called "willing suspension of disbelief" and isn't the same thing as actually believing. Nobody can make themselves believe something they know to be false, they must be convinced of it's truth. You can try to convince yourself, but that way lies cognitive dissonance.

[sidhe]

You want to say the deity is just in your head and acknowledge he's not actually out there, then fine. You only need to provide sufficient proof for yourself for that.

You want to convince me of his existence, you have to provide more proof.

I'm willing to accept that a deity doesn't have to live by the same rules as Tiger Woods, but you're going to have to show me a hell of a lot of evidence to convince me it actually exists in the first place, on an extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence basis.

But I really don't care if you believe. The point is that you accept things that have no objective point of reference based on a host of subjective ideas and accept that they exist independently of you, too. ;)

[dancer_rnb]

I think she also said, to be a witch, all one has to do is pronounce one's self as a witch.

Woo is much more New Age Wiccan or Neopaganism.

It all depends on who you talk to.

Rightly said by this definition, men can not be witches. Which bothers a lot of males. Though pagan festivals have a general lacking of men who weren't drug there by their wives.

I bet this bothers those men who were killed for being witches :bang:

[Pendaric]

But I really don't care if you believe. The point is that you accept things that have no objective point of reference based on a host of subjective ideas and accept that they exist independently of you, too. ;)

I don't accept that to be the case. (I'm sure you don't care if I believe, I mean the rest).

[Pendaric]

I bet this bothers those men who were killed for being witches :bang:

Wouldn't they have been killed for being warlocks, or again is my lack of experience in these matters showing?

[Brianna]

But I really don't care if you believe. The point is that you accept things that have no objective point of reference based on a host of subjective ideas and accept that they exist independently of you, too. ;)

Basically.

[Brianna]

I bet this bothers those men who were killed for being witches :bang:

Back the cart up. I am talking about witchcraft in the united states post 1970s.

And historically, if I recall correctly there were more women accused falsely of witchcraft then men.

[Brianna]

Wouldn't they have been killed for being warlocks, or again is my lack of experience in these matters showing?

Perhaps. not sure when that term came into use.

[Izmir Stinger]

And historically, if I recall correctly there were more women accused falsely of witchcraft then women.

I'm pretty sure you don't recall correctly.

[sidhe]

I don't accept that to be the case. (I'm sure you don't care if I believe, I mean the rest).

But you do. Can you measure your will to succeed that resulted in a 3milGBP portfolio?

[sidhe]

Wouldn't they have been killed for being warlocks, or again is my lack of experience in these matters showing?

Warlock is a term for an oathbreaker. Supposedly, it was a derogatory term for those who really were involved in the old religion who gave up others during inquisitions.

[Pendaric]

But you do. Can you measure your will to succeed that resulted in a 3milGBP portfolio?

Category difference. I'm not claiming that my will to succeed has any tangible reality in the physical world.

If you are viewing gods as a way to explain elements of your psyche, then you don't need to prove them. They are just labels. If you are viewing them as anything more than that, then you need more tangible proof.

My will to succeed can be objectively measured precisely by the existence of that portfolio, which can be objectively traced as being acquired by me. You can't say the same thing about the existence of Hermes.

[Brianna]

I'm pretty sure you don't recall correctly.

I think you better do some more research.

Who were the witches? Karlsen's demographic analysis of the available data shows that not those accused but those convicted of witchcraft in Salem and elsewhere were overwhelmingly women over the age of forty, with women over sixty being at an especially high risk for both accusation and conviction. The men convicted tended to be the family members of convicted female witches. Further, although those convicted of witchcraft in England tended to be poor, those accused of witchcraft in Salem were frequently relatively wealthy or powerful; for example, in addition to the wives of selectmen and some wealthy widows, two sons of former Governor Simon Bradstreet were accused but not tried, as was Captain John Alden, son of the legendary John and Priscilla Alden of Plymouth Colony.
Examination of a Witch, by T.H. Matteson 1853. Courtesy of the Peabody Essex Museum and The Salem Witch Trials Memorial

[dancer_rnb]

I wasn't asking for expert answers Pen.

I want you to answer why you would believe in something that you can not prove.
thanks. I was just too lazy to look at the thread title!

Having seen evidence that supports evolution more than the bible over my lifetime?
When I was a kid, we would go fossil hunting at a gravel quarry. Finding fossils that far under the earth, fossils of creatures that no longer exist (shelled cephalapods,even a few trilobites).

Seeing tetrapod fossils be discovered, though they are different from what was predicted when I was a child.

[dancer_rnb]

Wouldn't they have been killed for being warlocks, or again is my lack of experience in these matters showing?

My understanding is that at least one man was hung at Salem for witchcraft. May be semantics.

[Brianna]

My understanding is that at least one man was hung at salem for witchcraft. May be semantics.

There was at least one.

I typed incorrectly.

[Brianna]

Having seen evidence that supports evolution more than the bible over my lifetime?
When I was a kid, we would go fossil hunting at a gravel quarry. Finding fossils that far under the earth, fossils of creatures that no longer exist (shelled cephalapods,even a few trilobites).

Seeing tetrapod fossils be discovered, though they are different from what was predicted when I was a child.

that wasn't my point. :rolleyes:

[dancer_rnb]

that wasn't my point. :rolleyes:

Well, I could have commented on how the power of prayer wasn't very useful when my mother was dying. (Or if it was, I'd rather not think about it, after what happened.)

[Goldie]

Well, I could have commented on how the power of prayer wasn't very useful when my mother was dying. (Or if it was, I'd rather not think about it, after what happened.)

Funny how the power of the woo goes out the window when you really need it to be real.
:hug:

[sidhe]

Category difference. I'm not claiming that my will to succeed has any tangible reality in the physical world.

If you are viewing gods as a way to explain elements of your psyche, then you don't need to prove them. They are just labels. If you are viewing them as anything more than that, then you need more tangible proof.

My will to succeed can be objectively measured precisely by the existence of that portfolio, which can be objectively traced as being acquired by me. You can't say the same thing about the existence of Hermes.

That's a contradiction in bold. It can't have no tangible reality, and also have objective measurements. ;) Furthermore, if you've ever heard of Aleister Crowley (that pompous fuck...), he said that the act of will was the very act of magick...so...by creating wealth using little more than your will, you're a wizard, even if you used nothing but natural means. Furthermore, all your portfolio proves is that you have the portfolio. You could have inherited it, or just gotten incredibly lucky without putting forth any genuine work. ;)

Question: Was there ever a time during the acquisition of your portfolio that something just fell into place out of nowhere to your benefit, that you really hoped would happen? In other words, did you ever just get lucky on something that you knew would be to your benefit, but thought wasn't feasible at the time? More to the point, did this happen more than once?

The point I'm trying to make here is that everyone has things that they just accept without real proof, and rationalize away their faith in - be it their will, love, deity, whatever. They have "objective" proof for it - I could point to the fact that the night before my job interview, I reminded my patroness that she does have a maternal side, and takes care of her children, and so I could use a major assist with getting a job. I bombed the interview, and still got the job. The thing is, it doesn't prove a thing to you. It doesn't have to, and even if I do believe in the existence of supernatural forces, it makes exactly zero impact on your life. You point to a "category difference", but you can't tell me what category something that has no-objective-proof-yet-a-tangible-effect would fall into if not the same one as "love" and "will".

Love is tangible, yet not objective. The will to do anything is tangible, yet not objective. Belief in deity is tangible, yet not objective. You can see the affects of them all on the people who possess them, yet you cannot measure it, and the affect can be for good or ill.

If you're going to use "category difference", you have to establish what the qualifications for deity are, and what defines the category. You can't say it's not an emotion, because neither is the will to accomplish something, and yet it is categorically similar to love.

We're all irrational on some level. Some of us just admit it.

[alien billie]

Hey Pendaric, do you know I think I've read more non-Admin type posts from you tonight than I did in almost a year at TR.

Good to see.

[Brianna]

Well Voodoun (or the variant spellings) is a syncristic religion based on African practices & worldview, Roman Catholic practices and worldview, and indigenous Caribbean practices and worldviews. Is that pagan if it embraces some of the Christian stuff? If so, then where's your threshold? Are Holiness Snake Handlers Christian or pagan? :dunno:



The Catholic church is the most pagan of all the christian churches.
If they believe that Jesus is the son of God, they are christian.
If they live in the country, they are pagan. :D

I don't worry about labels way too much to be honest. People are who they are and as long as they don't tell me how to believe, I don't have to beat them with a stick.

[Izmir Stinger]

I think you better do some more research.

No amount of research will convince me that more women were convicted of witchcraft than woman. ;)

[Brianna]

No amount of research will convince me that more women were convicted of witchcraft than woman. ;)

Bite. Me. :dunno:

[Brianna]

Though just like everyone that isn't christian doesn't like to be lumped into the pagan catagory... I don't like you lumping other woo into my woo. I'd like to think I have a decent head on my shoulders.

[Moriah Conquering Wind]

Nobody wants Moriah's flavor of woo! :p

[sidhe]

http://www.economist.com/science/PrinterFriendly.cfm?story_id=13226725

I, while generally disagreeing with the brand of "woo" that says that quantum physics explains everything, got a huge kick that an entire experiment was based - basically - around the principle of trying to catch a glimpse of something out of the corner of your eye without it noticing you're looking by looking at something else that might be related for a really long time.

Seriously, this is, to some extent, the point of a lot of esoteric meditations. You look at something meaningless until you notice all the meaning contained in it. ;)

[Anne]

My understanding is that at least one man was hung at Salem for witchcraft. May be semantics.

oh, come on. There's no reason to guess. Way more than one man.

Hanged on June 10
Bridget Bishop, Salem

Hanged on July 19
Sarah Good, Salem Village
Rebecca Nurse, Salem Village
Susannah Martin, Amesbury
Elizabeth How, Ipswich
Sarah Wilds, Topsfield

Hanged on August 19
George Burroughs, Wells, Maine
John Proctor, Salem Village
John Willard, Salem Village
George Jacobs, Sr., Salem Town
Martha Carrier, Andover

September 19
Giles Corey, Salem Farms, pressed to death

Hanged on September 22
Martha Corey, Salem Farms
Mary Eastey, Topsfield
Alice Parker, Salem Town
Ann Pudeater, Salem Town
Margaret Scott, Rowley
Wilmott Reed, Marblehead
Samuel Wardwell, Andover
Mary Parker, Andover


would someone do a spell and get action over at another board (http://www.rationalpagans.com) who would love this shit?

[Brianna]

oh, come on. There's no reason to guess. Way more than one man.

Hanged on June 10
Bridget Bishop, Salem

Hanged on July 19
Sarah Good, Salem Village
Rebecca Nurse, Salem Village
Susannah Martin, Amesbury
Elizabeth How, Ipswich
Sarah Wilds, Topsfield

Hanged on August 19
George Burroughs, Wells, Maine
John Proctor, Salem Village
John Willard, Salem Village
George Jacobs, Sr., Salem Town
Martha Carrier, Andover

September 19
Giles Corey, Salem Farms, pressed to death

Hanged on September 22
Martha Corey, Salem Farms
Mary Eastey, Topsfield
Alice Parker, Salem Town
Ann Pudeater, Salem Town
Margaret Scott, Rowley
Wilmott Reed, Marblehead
Samuel Wardwell, Andover
Mary Parker, Andover


would someone do a spell and get action over at another board (http://www.rationalpagans.com) who would love this shit?

I miss typed. /sigh we know there were a few men killed but more women... then women.

[Tenebrae]

I do kind of like some of the gothy stuff, however I live in farming central, where things like goth, are akin to running down the street naked.

[Moriah Conquering Wind]

what would be wrong with running down the street naked? :dunno:

especially in farmland country ... out in the boonies? you kidding? acres away from neighbors ... who needs clothes!

[Goldie]

I did that when I was...TWELVE!
They called it streaking. It was Detroit...at night...and we were "pool hopping." We thought it was funny. But... we were TWELVE!:p

[Moriah Conquering Wind]

Go to the mountains and the oceans and the forest, go naked in the summertime that you may regain the old joy and love gladly and freely under the stars.
But the body is not beautiful? Here is a secret. The body is molded by the mind. Embrace fear, repression, hate, then look upon the body - or rather do not look upon it. But go free, love joyously, without restraint, run naked a little. Then watch the cheeks flush, see the breasts swell, the supple contours, the flowing rhythm. All disease and all deformity are bred in fear and hate. Therefore, oh woman, are you called healer.

-- Jack W. Parsons, 1914-1952 e.v.

[sidhe]

-- Jack W. Parsons, 1914-1952 e.v.

Parsons FTW!

[tjakey]

Last Thursday night, I saw the rarest of creatures in the bookstore - the African American Pagan.

Thing was, unlike most A-A Pagans I've seen, they neither looked very professional, nor hippie. He had on Sean John, low slung shorts, a wife beater (doubtless, high quality), a puffy FUBU jacket, do-rag, and untied Timberlands, with his books on shamanism and santeria tucked neatly under his arm.

I just found that to be a fascinating moment.

Well now I know I'm old and out of it...I have no fucking idea what you just said.

[Moriah Conquering Wind]

it LOVES sidhe. LOVES!

that bes all. :D

[sidhe]

Hey MCW. :)

[MrFungus420]

Are there people who consider themselves to be witches who dress normally?

When I was a practicing Wiccan, except for rituals, I generally wore jeans and T-shirts...about like I do mostly now.

[cmoon]

Sorry to derail in my own special way; but when I was a kid growing up in Lincoln Nebraska, some dude declared himself God and built a shrine to himself in his driveway. I think he was sacrificing chickens on the front of it or something--to himself. I dunno, I barely remember it--other than my parents driving by and seeing this guy sitting on his own throne he had made out of lumber.

I think when the time is right, that wouldn't be a bad way to go. Perhaps I should just start building a shrine to myself on my porch, make some sort of kingly (or godly) outfit and sit out there for all the world to see drinking big goblets of mead. Anyone know where I can buy a crown?

[Brianna]

Are there people who consider themselves to be witches who dress normally?

When I was a practicing Wiccan, except for rituals, I generally wore jeans and T-shirts...about like I do mostly now.

What are you praciticing now?

[Tangiellis]

Last Thursday night, I saw the rarest of creatures in the bookstore - the African American Pagan.
I had no idea I was a rare breed. And the coolest thing was while reading this, I felt like an independent species. :cool:

Thing was, unlike most A-A Pagans I've seen, they neither looked very professional, nor hippie. He had on Sean John, low slung shorts, a wife beater (doubtless, high quality), a puffy FUBU jacket, do-rag, and untied Timberlands, with his books on shamanism and santeria tucked neatly under his arm.

I'm counting the cost of this outfit in my head and I find it staggering. Is there anyway I can move to where such affluent AA Pagans live?

'Cause I ain't rockin' that here. I'm not quite sure what you'd make of me. One day I dress gothic. Another day I am a hippie. The day after that, a bum. Other days, professional blouses and slacks. Lastly, some nights with heels and sleek dresses. Some days all them.

Right now I'm sporting nails with black polish, jeans ripped up and down the legs for wear/tear with paint streaks on them. A Hindu-inspired long-sleeved shirt with halos and rose light on it, topped off with a sleeveless, zippered black sweatshirt with keys and skulls all over it. Oh, and my sneakers are flaming red.

I just found that to be a fascinating moment.

Why was this a fascinating moment?

[MrFungus420]

Are there people who consider themselves to be witches who dress normally?

When I was a practicing Wiccan, except for rituals, I generally wore jeans and T-shirts...about like I do mostly now.

What are you praciticing now?

That depends, do you want to teach me something, or learn a new trick or two... :evil:

[Brianna]

Last Thursday night, I saw the rarest of creatures in the bookstore - the African American Pagan.
I had no idea I was a rare breed. And the coolest thing was while reading this, I felt like an independent species. :cool:

Thing was, unlike most A-A Pagans I've seen, they neither looked very professional, nor hippie. He had on Sean John, low slung shorts, a wife beater (doubtless, high quality), a puffy FUBU jacket, do-rag, and untied Timberlands, with his books on shamanism and santeria tucked neatly under his arm.

I'm counting the cost of this outfit in my head and I find it staggering. Is there anyway I can move to where such affluent AA Pagans live?

'Cause I ain't rockin' that here. I'm not quite sure what you'd make of me. One day I dress gothic. Another day I am a hippie. The day after that, a bum. Other days, professional blouses and slacks. Lastly, some nights with heels and sleek dresses. Some days all them.

Right now I'm sporting nails with black polish, jeans ripped up and down the legs for wear/tear with paint streaks on them. A Hindu-inspired long-sleeved shirt with halos and rose light on it, topped off with a sleeveless, zippered black sweatshirt with keys and skulls all over it. Oh, and my sneakers are flaming red.

I just found that to be a fascinating moment.

Why was this a fascinating moment?

My sister works at an AA agency. Above the mason dixie line, She knows ONE AA pagan and 2 AA homosexuals and a handful of atheists. They are diffently not out of the closet. In a very large AA population, that is scary stuff.
http://www.llewellyn.com/bookstore/author.php?id=45949 I've meet this lady. She lives in Chicago.

[sidhe]

Why was this a fascinating moment?

Because, this is the Bible Belt. Seeing other people over age 16 in the pagan section is shocking enough, but to see a hip-hop dressed AA pagan was a shock.

[Tangiellis]

I suppose. I've lived in the Bible Belt. I grew up in southwestern GA and saw more than a few goth or pagan folks in the community and that was back in the 80's & 90s. I guess I'm just used to seeing varieties of folks; I'm hardly an anomaly when it comes to being an AA dressed up in such a way.

Further, Santeria and Voodun (sp is dependent on the region) are pretty common place throughout the Hispanic and Black communities, but no one actually considers this to be outside the bounds of Christianity. It's just something that's done and not actually talked about. Not one person I've ever met who does either Santeria or Voodun will call themselves anything other than Christian.