Why are Americans so religious?

[munnki]

This topic may have been addressed before so please feel free to pop in a link and I will go there and read people's opinions on the subject. Although I don't have the exact statistics handy, I'm deeply interested in the opinions of those within the US as to why religion is such an important part of the lives of so many people there. I'm not particularly interested in the brand of religion people have but I'm interested in their opinions as to why so many people identify with one religious sect or another. Many Europeans feel this is a real mark of difference that sets them apart (for good or ill) from US citizens. I wonder what people's opinions on the subject are....

[Faerie]

I cant comment for the US, but here in SA we're equally plagued by the overly religious.

[tjakey]

I think Americans are "surface religious." On any given Sunday about 25% of Americans are in church...that would be all churches and all Americans, of all religions. That means 75% of us, even those who would call themselves "believers" have decided that god can take care of himself for the week as we have better things to do.

(I know the 25% number is a bit soft; here is a quote from a sight where I looked up the information; Presser and Stinson found that many Americans were not at church when they claimed to be. Their best estimates are that the percentage of adults who actually attended religious services during the previous weekend dropped from 42% in 1965 to 26% in 1994. )

That is not to say I wish religion had even less influence, but I (sometimes) think the religious nature of the USA is overblown. After all, we don't really suffer the Christians in the same way the middle east suffers Islam or N. Korea suffers from their Kim Il-sung personality cult.

[munnki]

So do you think then that there's a certain cynicism in the way that politicians on the right (and also on the left but more overtly on the right) have used religion in their presentation of their ideas. What I mean to say is that it was my impression (and it's just that - I have no formal basis in fact for making this claim) that while many within the intelligensia of the US did not vote due to lack of choice and alienation; many people motivated by so-called religious issues (the anti-abortion people, the anti-gay marriage people etc...) did vote and therefore got a say in events and an influence far beyond their actual numerical strength and the real importance of the issues (foreign policy seemed for a long time to take a second seat to these more, imho, trivial issues)? This observation is based on the number of years I spent living in the states and, again, not based on any objective evidence... just a musing...

[Joykins]

We have an open market in religion :D

[BioBeing]

We have an open market in religion :D

Only Christian religions.

[Redshirt]

I think Joykins nailed it. The US doesn't have an institututional history of a state supported religion. Since churces weren't supported by the state, they had to become more entrepreneurial to hold on to their flocks and bring in more. Pastors' livelihoods depended on it.

I think it's also an aspect of political culture. The US has had deep cultural religious roots going back to the Puritans. Instead of a state religion, Americans practice something like a civic religion instead. Large US flags are a common display feature in church sanctuaries along with other US national symbols.

[Joykins]

We have an open market in religion :D

Only Christian religions.

nuh uh. I know people who have converted to Judaism and Islam.

[tjakey]

I think there is a huge amount of cynicism by politicians on the right, just as I think there is a huge amount of hubris and pandering on the left. (Newt Gingrich is a Catholic? Please. Obama wears his "born again" on his sleeve? Please again.)

The religious people are loud, but gay people are not going anywhere, and we (as a society) are not going to backtrack to the 1960s when is comes to sex. As for abortions, I don't think they are going anywhere either. It isn't like the US invented abortions.

[David B]

We have an open market in religion :D

Only Christian religions.

Mormonism? Scientology? Hare Krishna? Catholic:evil:

David

[munnki]

Dya know. I love the Mormons. Here's why. I'm sitting on a bus in Chicago on my way into work and the guy beside me with a classic serial killer grin says to me - 'Did you know Jesus came to America?'

Now, tell me the world would be as colourful without people like that.

And, I have to admit, up until and indeed following that day I was unaware of Jesus having come to America.

Awesome...

[BioBeing]

We have an open market in religion :D

Only Christian religions.

nuh uh. I know people who have converted to Judaism and Islam.

So I forgot to add the smiley. But then, I was only half joking. ;)

But then I also actually do agree with you. It is why CSS is so important for religionists as well as for secularists. State involvement with a relgion would probably sour many people to it. Do you really want Obama as the head of your church (or George Bush, or Sarah Palin...)?

[Khatru]

Many people came to America to escape religious persecution in Europe. I guess their religion was different from the norm in their countries.

Pretty much all endeavors, from "building a garden in the wilderness" to Manifest Destiny have been built on (or excused by) Christian beliefs. Perhaps the US never really moved away from the Puritan heritage that must have influenced those early decades of nationhood?

[David B]

Dya know. I love the Mormons. Here's why. I'm sitting on a bus in Chicago on my way into work and the guy beside me with a classic serial killer grin says to me - 'Did you know Jesus came to America?'

Now, tell me the world would be as colourful without people like that.

Well, they make it colourful, OH. But they tend to brainwash their kids, as many of them were brainwashed by their own parents.

And that I tend as more tragedy than comedy, myself.

And, I have to admit, up until and indeed following that day I was unaware of Jesus having come to America.

Awesome...

Awful!

David

[munnki]

It is tragic... utterly so... but laughing at somebodies beliefs can be as powerful an antidote as explaining to them why they're ridiculous... and the colourful bit was in deep sarcasm...
;)
when it comes to making nonsense up though... it's as good as any of the established foolisnesses...save scientology which is the meilleur of 'oh you can't believe that...' type religions...

[David B]

It is tragic... utterly so... but laughing at somebodies beliefs can be as powerful an antidote as explaining to them why they're ridiculous... and the colourful bit was in deep sarcasm...
;)
when it comes to making nonsense up though... it's as good as any of the established foolisnesses...save scientology which is the meilleur of 'oh you can't believe that...' type religions...

Yes. I'm a fan of the power of ridicule as a means of combating the indefensible. Sadly, though, I see threads on this and other boards
in which some members of the secular community see this as jerkish. I, OTOH, think it better than the alternatives of tacit consent on the one hand, draconian measures against the religious on the other. There are of course other reasonable alternatives - engaging people in discussion, for instance.

David

[munnki]

OTW I agree with you. However, the twin religions of Catholicism and Scientology require some kind of stocks/dunce-hat arrangement for their more prominent followers... at best... and no, there comes a time when 'that's a load of bollocks and neither merits tolerance nor tax-breaks' needs to be said clearly and unambiguously...

I take that back.. you can't pick religions out and say one is worse than the other... it's turtles all the way down... it's just the no condoms in AIDS-ridden Africa and aliens in the souls thing seem particularly mocking of reason and humanity...

[Ray Moscow]

I think religion is popular largely because the culture makes it so, rather than because of religions' merits.

I grew up in the Bible Belt, and practically everyone I knew was a churchgoer, except a few no-accounts. Anyone who didn't attend was scum to those of us (the vast majority) who did.

That kind of hold takes generations to disperse.

[BigEvil]

We have an open market in religion :D

and

I think religion is popular largely because the culture makes it so, rather than because of religions' merits.

I grew up in the Bible Belt, and practically everyone I knew was a churchgoer, except a few no-accounts. Anyone who didn't attend was scum to those of us (the vast majority) who did.

That kind of hold takes generations to disperse.

I think it is a combination of Joykins and Ray's comments. There is enormous pressure to be religious or part of a religious culture, but there is not much in the way being part of a specific religious sect. And the religious flavors to choose from are quite variable, from extreme conservative and literal to extreme liberal and metaphorical. If you can find some way to vaguely make your beliefs god-centric and vaguely state that they are christian, you have met the culture requirements and are part of the in-group.

Had there been a state sponsored religious sect, where the in-group was narrowly defined, I seriously doubt the U.S. would be half as religious as it is.

[Jobar]

We've never had a religious war. Sure, we see religious wars going on in other parts of the world, but we've gone more than two hundred years without one.

Of course there have been episodes of religious persecutions down through US history, but even those haven't been as bad as in other nations.

So, religion in the US is seen as more unreservedly beneficial than it is in places like the Mideast, or Northern Ireland, or... well, a long list of places where some form of religious hatred is a daily experience for most of the populace.

[Jacknife]

I'm not sure if this is common only in America but belief or faith in god, particularly the christian god, is seen as a good character trait. Those who don't express faith in any gods are often stereotyped as evil or sometimes just plain strange.

I can't even count how many times I've heard someone say they voted for a particular political candidate based the candidates faith in god and nothing else. George HW Bush did once say: "No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God." I'm sure there are plenty of Americans who would agree with him.

In the United States people are often encouraged to seek god (the christian one) as the solution to every single problem that might arrise. Suffering from alcoholism, drug abuse, depression? Here take a dose of god. You don't have faith in the lord? Just pretend like you do and eventually it will grow on you.

All I can say for sure is that it is getting worse.

[Hevvin Machine]

All I can say for sure is that it is getting worse.
Hi Jacknife. Glad you joined us.
Sorry, but I must contradict your first post.:o

I think America is slowly starting to lose the religious craziness of the last few decades. There are still high profile cases of religious weirdness. But I think they are mostly either cases of shooting their own feet by advocating things that only the most wingnut folks will accept, or they are cases of religious commercialism. Neither of these is sustainable. I think the late 20th century wave of Christianism has already crested.
Hev

[BigEvil]

All I can say for sure is that it is getting worse.
Hi Jacknife. Glad you joined us.
Sorry, but I must contradict your first post.:o

I think America is slowly starting to lose the religious craziness of the last few decades. There are still high profile cases of religious weirdness. But I think they are mostly either cases of shooting their own feet by advocating things that only the most wingnut folks will accept, or they are cases of religious commercialism. Neither of these is sustainable. I think the late 20th century wave of Christianism has already crested.
Hev

I would tend to agree. I think it has crested also, but it remains to be seen how much it will recede. Its no longer advancing, but its not going to go away.

[DMB]

Many people came to America to escape religious persecution in Europe.


So that they could do some persecuting of their own? :D

[Gaojie]

All I can say for sure is that it is getting worse.
Hi Jacknife. Glad you joined us.
Sorry, but I must contradict your first post.:o

I think America is slowly starting to lose the religious craziness of the last few decades. There are still high profile cases of religious weirdness. But I think they are mostly either cases of shooting their own feet by advocating things that only the most wingnut folks will accept, or they are cases of religious commercialism. Neither of these is sustainable. I think the late 20th century wave of Christianism has already crested.
Hev

I would tend to agree. I think it has crested also, but it remains to be seen how much it will recede. Its no longer advancing, but its not going to go away.

I also agree, it doesn't seem to be budging much. But hey turning back something so monstrouss takes time.

[David B]

All I can say for sure is that it is getting worse.
Hi Jacknife. Glad you joined us.
Sorry, but I must contradict your first post.:o

I think America is slowly starting to lose the religious craziness of the last few decades. There are still high profile cases of religious weirdness. But I think they are mostly either cases of shooting their own feet by advocating things that only the most wingnut folks will accept, or they are cases of religious commercialism. Neither of these is sustainable. I think the late 20th century wave of Christianism has already crested.
Hev

I would tend to agree. I think it has crested also, but it remains to be seen how much it will recede. Its no longer advancing, but its not going to go away.

I also agree, it doesn't seem to be budging much. But hey turning back something so monstrouss takes time.

Yes, it does take time, as it also takes time for a religion or sect to take hold of an area, I'd suggest. Same with an ideology like fascism, communism...

If one imagines a graph which plots the change in acceptance or rejection of a religion or ideology - or even a meme like hula hoops - over time, there are loads of shapes of the curve that one can imagine.

It is speculative, but not, I think implausible, to hypothesise some sort of tipping point, based perhaps on the amount of positive or negative reinforcement, which might lead to changes happening pretty fast, in something almost analogous to a phase transition.

:dunno:

David

[munnki]

Yeah but communism had great imagery.

http://imagecache5.art.com/p/LRG/20/2048/IBU4D00Z/victor-koretsky-soviet-communist-poster.jpg

Jackanapes aside. I love constructivist art. I was recently lucky enough to go on a visit to St Petersburg and my kitchen is now littered with Leninist and Stalinist art. Two of my favourites are:

Communist apparatchik with his hands in a tut-tut motion looking down, out of a window, at Uncle Sam who is carrying a burning brazier of wood in one hand and a nuclear bomb in the other. The caption reads 'Ne Bally-ee' which translates to 'None of your trickery'.

Fridge magnet with Stalin sailing at the helm of a ship and a crowd behind him all looking forward and the caption reads 'Stalin is sailing on the good ship of socialism from glorious victory to glorious victory'.

No papist art comes close to that sense of ironic detachment...

:p

More seriously, St Petersburg was actually a rather tragic place. Being a teacher I'm used to being looked down on and being financially poorly rewarded for the things I do. Saying that, a teacher in St Petersburg would, in the first ten years of her (and I do mean 'her' - the profession was almost exclusively female) career make around £130 UKP a month. Only some of those I talked to hankered back after socialism but, for many teachers, removal of liberties aside, their economic situation was actually better under communism. They were provided with apartments, cost of living was lower etc... Now, I don't want a glut of replies about 'how terrible life was under communism..etc...' I'm merely reporting the experiences of people who were working in important jobs and trying to live normal lives under trying conditions. In perspective, selling mobile phones on street corners, being a thief and selling your body made you many times that amount in much less time...

Very humbling experience...

It is speculative, but not, I think implausible, to hypothesise some sort of tipping point, based perhaps on the amount of positive or negative reinforcement, which might lead to changes happening pretty fast, in something almost analogous to a phase transition.

I think, David, what's interesting about the Russian experience of this is that Leninist and Stalinist Russia were hugely anti-religious places (this had a huge influence on the anti-communist movement that culminated in things like McCarthyism, for example - the 'godless' socialists) and they even went to the (funny) extreme of converting one of the most beautiful cathedrals in St Petersburg into a museum of atheism. However, religion proved dogged and unmoving and the result was the deal Stalin made with the orthodox church during the Second World war. I think the 'solution' to religion, if such a thing exists, has to understand it for the highly embedded and dogged thing it really is...education, I think, would only be part of a strategy for its removal (again, if should a thing could be obtained)...

That.. or calling in the einsatzgruppen...

[DMB]

In Russia, the Orthodox church now has a very strong position and is digging in (promoting creationism too).

[Khatru]

Many people came to America to escape religious persecution in Europe.


So that they could do some persecuting of their own? :D

Yup! Starting with those people that were already there.

[tjakey]

Why are Americans so religious?

Well, you know, it could be as simple as...

We are not that well educated and we really aren't that smart. After all we elected gw da shrub twice, made Rush Limbaugh a millionaire several times over, still listen to Newt Gingrich, Fox New is a profitable enterprise, and apparently we actually care what happens to Paula Abdule.

A population that dumb would be a pretty easy sell for a magic sky daddy.

[munnki]

erm...

[munnki]

After all we elected gw da shrub twice, made Rush Limbaugh a millionaire several times over.

Good point, but can Rush Limbaugh be killed by conventional means?

I think Bill Hicks said it best about Rush - although I must give a mild warning about this... he doesn't hold back...

pg2_MntkMzg

[willynilly]

I think for some who are second or third generation it's a matter of tradition. When you come to America you change how you look and talk but religion is one thing we don't care you keep. For some it's what they think they are. Most will say they are Christian or whatever but don't go to church or know a damn thing about their so called faith. Mostly it's one of those things that is open to practice so people do.

[hecaterin]

Sociologically, higher levels of poverty and inequality go along with religiosity. And the US is an outlier among western-style democracies in those, too.

[premjan]

Economic insecurity rather than poverty I think.