The misery of female genital mutilation

[DMB]

http://www.irinnews.org/HOVReport.aspx?ReportId=85929

This is actually pretty standard. It is such a horrible practice. But at least there is some progress against it.

"The pain was indescribable - my whole body hurt, I almost fainted. I bled so much that I had to have special herbs put on the wound to stop the bleeding. I then spent several days alone at home healing. One lady was assigned to me to wash me and feed me and ensure I healed properly. During the healing period, I was taught other things; I was prepared for sex and marriage.

"When I got married, I found it difficult to enjoy sex; although I had a healthy sex drive, my husband found it very difficult to please me sexually, and I have always felt that something was missing from my sex life.

"Giving birth was terrible. Each time I gave birth, the scarring from my circumcision meant I had severe vaginal tearing and bleeding, and I had to stay in the hospital for about a week after birth, when other women went home the same day they delivered. Giving birth was like being circumcised all over again.

[Sodong]

I remember back in the 80's a friend of mine, an anthropology professor, telling me about this practice. She wrote a book about it. It is a horrific practice, and "circumcision" is a real misnomer. This is not just removal of the protective skin from around the sensitive part of the sexual organ as in male circumcision. It would be better referred to as two separate, often in combination, practices known as clitoral excision and infibulation. In clitoral excision, the entire clitoris is removed - the equivalent of cutting off the entire tip or head of the penis. Quite often there is also infibulation which involves cutting away the labia minora and often majora, then sewing up the vaginal opening, leaving a tiny space to allow for urination. Both sex and childbirth are incredibly painful as a result. The unsanitary conditions under which these procedures are often performed results in terrible infections that can result in sterility and sometimes death. It's usually performed just before or at the onset of menses, so many women who have undergone this draconian procedure never get to experience an orgasm. While some women of course are able to have "vaginal" orgasms, the clitoris is the primary organ involved in orgasm for most women and without it, it just doesn't happen. I'm glad to see there is some progress being made in doing away with it. It removes a part of women's humanity. It's barbaric - perhaps the ultimate control of women and womens sexuality, and all the cultural relativists who might whine about that assessment can kiss my ass. Really!

[Anne]

I remember my anthro prof warning us about an animal sacrifice (throwing a cow off a cliff), and allowing us to leave.

Seven, fucking seven women in one video having their genitals mutilated, on camera, with a rusty razor blade, and not a single warning.

I threw up after class.

In Psych, we watched a gay porn, two men in consensual sex, warning. Rape of a woman in porn by two men? No warning.

WHAT THE FUCK?!?!

[DMB]

What is particularly sad is that although ultimately it has a be a tool in the male armoury for the control of women and their sexuality, it is usually carried out on girls by older women. In societies where it is practised, the direct motivation is usually that a woman who is not "circumcised" will not be marriageable. And so mothers want their daughters to have it in their own interest.

There is a long slow struggle against it. It still goes on in a number of Islamic countries, even though it is a pre-Islamic practice. There are still plenty of ignorant Muslims who think it is an Islamic requirement. But at least a number of Islamic clerics are now speaking out against it, and brave women activists are doing likewise.

[Sodong]

True, mostly it's women who perform the procedure so their daughters can be more acceptable to a man in marriage. Faith Mukwanyaga hits the nail on the head when she says "Today I tell young girls about my own experience so that they can aspire to greater things than just marriage;

[Sodong]

I remember my anthro prof warning us about an animal sacrifice (throwing a cow off a cliff), and allowing us to leave.

Seven, fucking seven women in one video having their genitals mutilated, on camera, with a rusty razor blade, and not a single warning.

I threw up after class.

In Psych, we watched a gay porn, two men in consensual sex, warning. Rape of a woman in porn by two men? No warning.

WHAT THE FUCK?!?!Sadly, the abuse of women is so commonplace that some folks are just ho-hum about it. Not only is it a common element in women's real lives, but on television and in movies, victimized women are big entertainment, apparently. I'm thinking of all those cop dramas that seem to be so popular these days. It's not too often that the victims are men or boys or that the perpetrator is a woman. While the entertainment draw may simply be the fantasy that justice will be done and men who victimize women will be caught and punished, if that was actually true in RL, we wouldn't need to fantasize. I think that violence against women is so ubiquitous there is a tendency to become desensitized. "Meh, it's just another woman being raped/brutalized/tortured/murdered/abused/dehumanized/controlled..."

[munnki]

Is life actually better without a clit? I'd have thought not... I must ask my local Imam.

[sohy]

Yes. Female genital mutilation is probably the nastiest, most despicable cultural practice in the history of the world. I can't imagine the horror that the victims must endure on the day of this torture as well as for the remainder of their lives.

[Ray Moscow]

I've got nothing to add except that this subject pisses me off big time.

[dug_down_deep]

How is this practice sold to the people who do it? Like with male circumcision, people say it makes you less susceptible to disease or something. What do they say it does for women?

[munnki]

That's it... I'm writing to the CEO of Islam... anybody have his address?

Is it still...

Ahmed Mohammad Gates III Jr. (May eternal peace be upon him),
1 Bismillah Way,
Al Akhbar Cty
10666

If I write they return my mail and if I try to call I just get put on hold with that awful Cat Stevens song...

[dancer_rnb]

I remember my anthro prof warning us about an animal sacrifice (throwing a cow off a cliff), and allowing us to leave.

Seven, fucking seven women in one video having their genitals mutilated, on camera, with a rusty razor blade, and not a single warning.

I threw up after class.

In Psych, we watched a gay porn, two men in consensual sex, warning. Rape of a woman in porn by two men? No warning.

WHAT THE FUCK?!?!Sadly, the abuse of women is so commonplace that some folks are just ho-hum about it. Not only is it a common element in women's real lives, but on television and in movies, victimized women are big entertainment, apparently. I'm thinking of all those cop dramas that seem to be so popular these days. It's not too often that the victims are men or boys or that the perpetrator is a woman. While the entertainment draw may simply be the fantasy that justice will be done and men who victimize women will be caught and punished, if that was actually true in RL, we wouldn't need to fantasize. I think that violence against women is so ubiquitous there is a tendency to become desensitized. "Meh, it's just another woman being raped/brutalized/tortured/murdered/abused/dehumanized/controlled..."

It's not as simple as that. Why is it always the disappearance of blond white women that are played up on the news, and never the disappearance of women of color?

Add: The news and tv shows play up to what evokes the sympathy of the majority culture
Enough of a derail. I can't see how anyone could approve of female mutilation.

[Anne]

How is this practice sold to the people who do it? Like with male circumcision, people say it makes you less susceptible to disease or something. What do they say it does for women?

It's marriage. You can't get married without it.

And it's part fo being a woman.

It's horrendous.

[Sodong]

How is this practice sold to the people who do it? Like with male circumcision, people say it makes you less susceptible to disease or something. What do they say it does for women?
It doesn't have to be sold when it's imposed, but in short, virginity at the time of marriage. Marriage is not a choice in some of the places where it's practiced. It's all there is for a woman.

[DMB]

Remaining unmarried is considered a disgrace. This practice is quite often combined with child marriage (early teens) and polygamy.

[dug_down_deep]

Awful. Just awful.

[Anne]

Marriage is an interesting thing, and mainly misogynistic. The whole thing.

And yet, we've been brainwashed to think it's the goal of all womankind.

g8Szt6F7K20

[Matty]

you know what? Blokes. They are all a right bunch of cunts arent they.

[walks off whistling ]


.Marriage is an interesting thing, and mainly misogynistic. The whole thing.
If thats so how come the woman wears the trousers in just about every marriage i can think of? To a point at least

[munnki]

you know what? Blokes. They are all a right bunch of cunts arent they.

[walks off whistling ]


.Marriage is an interesting thing, and mainly misogynistic. The whole thing.
If thats so how come the woman wears the trousers in just about every marriage i can think of? To a point at least

Could you repeat that, sorry I couldn't hear you, I was beating my wife - you see - and she does make such a racket when I do that!

[dancer_rnb]

Father, dear father, you've done me great wrong.....
You've married me to a boy who is too young.....
I'm twice twelve, and he is but fourteen......

[Sodong]

you know what? Blokes. They are all a right bunch of cunts arent they.

[walks off whistling ]<whistles loudly> Hey. Cute butt, hm gals?

(In RL, Matty could have a rhinocerus butt or one of those hollowed out camel behinds for all I know. I'm just practicing my cat-calling skills on his virtual butt, for fun because he soooo asks for it) :evil:

[Octavia]

It's marriage. You can't get married without it.

And it's part fo being a woman.

It's horrendous.

It does seem to be changing in some parts, though. I remember reading a book (great citation, I know, but I can't remember the title or author) about a woman who was working to educate African immigrants to Europe against FGM. There was one case where a young woman was asked by her fiance (arranged marriage) if she had been cut - she had been, and said so, thinking it would make her acceptable. But the young man then broke off the arrangement, specifically because he had been educated about FGM and didn't want to marry someone who had undergone it.

Good for him for not supporting it, but I felt sorry for the girl.

[His Noodly Appendage]

What, no thousands of people loudly demanding that they'd all had it done and there was nothing wrong with their junk, thankyou very much, how dare anyone be so fucking insulting?

[Magdlyn]

What, no thousands of people loudly demanding that they'd all had it done and there was nothing wrong with their junk, thankyou very much, how dare anyone be so fucking insulting?

Well, the women may feel some pain when it's done at puberty, but you know boy babies cant even feel it when its done on day 2 of life. Babies are lacking a central nervous system. :D

[Anne]

It's marriage. You can't get married without it.

And it's part fo being a woman.

It's horrendous.

It does seem to be changing in some parts, though. I remember reading a book (great citation, I know, but I can't remember the title or author) about a woman who was working to educate African immigrants to Europe against FGM. There was one case where a young woman was asked by her fiance (arranged marriage) if she had been cut - she had been, and said so, thinking it would make her acceptable. But the young man then broke off the arrangement, specifically because he had been educated about FGM and didn't want to marry someone who had undergone it.

Good for him for not supporting it, but I felt sorry for the girl.

Good for her. How horrible to be in a relationship with someone for whom the scars of abuse are that disgusting.

I guess we have different points of view.

[His Noodly Appendage]

On the other hand, should we validate abuse by allowing it to get the claimed results?

[Anne]

I thought she was a 'woman', not an 'it' that 'needed results' nor 'abuse'.

She's a victim, and in the 'enlightened world', she is now nothing more. Not a person, not a survivor, but a thing to be abused more by men who are now 'too enlightened' to see her as a person.

She's better off without him, and with a man who can see her for who she is, not what was done to her.

I hope she can find him. Men like that are rare.

[DMB]

Well, I for one can understand a man not wanting to be married to someone like that if he has compunction about it. After all, in some cultures where infibulation is the norm, the man is expected to take a knife to his bride on the wedding night and cut her open so that they can have sex. What enlightened man would want to do that? And then one would know that if one got her pregnant, she would be in danger of further injury as a result of childbirth.

As I understand it, this is about an arranged marriage, not a love match. So if the young man is looking for a normal marriage with mutual enjoyment of sexuality, he is unlikely to get it in this case. He is under no obligation to tie himself to a mutilated victim that he doesn't love in the first place.

[His Noodly Appendage]

She's a woman. The custom is an it. The custom needs to have the shit kicked out of it.

Validating the custom has the potential to mutilate countless thousands of women.

Refusing to validate the custom has the potential to make one woman feel rejected.

The least-worst is pretty clear. It's still very bad, but the alternative is worse regardless.

Systematic abuse in cases like this uses its own victims as a shield. It relies on people being unwilling to paint its victims as victims - and thus cannot be abuse, really.

Submitting to emotional blackmail, when it clears the way for countless people to face dire physical harm... is not on.

[Anne]

Well, I for one can understand a man not wanting to be married to someone like that if he has compunction about it. After all, in some cultures where infibulation is the norm, the man is expected to take a knife to his bride on the wedding night and cut her open so that they can have sex. What enlightened man would want to do that? And then one would know that if one got her pregnant, she would be in danger of further injury as a result of childbirth.

A real one?

:dunno:

As I understand it, this is about an arranged marriage, not a love match. So if the young man is looking for a normal marriage with mutual enjoyment of sexuality, he is unlikely to get it in this case. He is under no obligation to tie himself to a mutilated victim that he doesn't love in the first place.

I'm out of this one.

Sorry, Noodly posted.

She's a woman. The custom is an it. The custom needs to have the shit kicked out of it.

Validating the custom has the potential to mutilate countless thousands of women.

Refusing to validate the custom has the potential to make one woman feel rejected.

The least-worst is pretty clear. It's still very bad, but the alternative is worse regardless.

Systematic abuse in cases like this uses its own victims as a shield. It relies on people being unwilling to paint its victims as victims - and thus cannot be abuse, really.

Submitting to emotional blackmail, when it clears the way for countless people to face dire physical harm... is not on.

You're right. Women unite! Do NOT MARRY MEN NOR DATE THEM IF THEY'VE BEEN CUT! Don't support the custom done years before by supporting an individual today!

I am so out.

[Matty]

well, much as i see your point, i think you are reading too much into it.

All we know of that case is that said guy doesnt like genitally mutilated women and doesnt want to marry one. So what. I have yet to experience one but i'd imagine i'd find it pretty fucking off putting too.

PLus there could be the take that he doesnt want to marry into a family that is so fucking retarded that they do that to their little girls.

I dont think you can make the guy out to be a bad guy in this scenario Anne, make the girls parents out as such by all means, but there was no obligation of said prospective husband to buy into or actively support some chick he doesnt know and who he presumably doesnt find that sexy, be that her fault or not.

I felt sorry for the elephant man too, but i wouldnt want to marry or fuck him

[His Noodly Appendage]

The custom persists because it is seen to increase the marriageability of the victims. Those responsible feel that they are buying their children an advantage in life.

Until it is seen to decrease the marriageability, to be an active disadvantage, it's not going to stop. Neutral isn't going to cut it - there's way too much confirmation bias for that to ever work. People have to know that their daughters will actually be worse off (in their terms) before they'll change.

And for that to be the case, it means that said daughters will need to actually be worse off, in those terms. People are going to have to actually come forward and say 'ew, gross - I don't want half a woman', and actually follow through.

It's incredibly shitty, but I don't see another way.

[His Noodly Appendage]

You're right. Women unite! Do NOT MARRY MEN NOR DATE THEM IF THEY'VE BEEN CUT! Don't support the custom done years before by supporting an individual today!

HELL FUCKING YES.

If enough people had the courage, we could end that bullshit within a generation.

[Magdlyn]

You're right. Women unite! Do NOT MARRY MEN NOR DATE THEM IF THEY'VE BEEN CUT! Don't support the custom done years before by supporting an individual today!

HELL FUCKING YES.

If enough people had the courage, we could end that bullshit within a generation.

Well, insurance no longer paying for cutting off penis parts is working already... all those bogus medical benefits go out the window. As far as I know this is the only advantage of the US health care industry today.

[Octavia]

Good for her. How horrible to be in a relationship with someone for whom the scars of abuse are that disgusting.

I guess we have different points of view.

IIRC it was an arranged marriage, and they barely knew each other when the question came up. I'd agree he'd be a shit if they had an established relationship and then he dumped her because of it. I have a harder time demonising someone at the beginning of a relationship for not wanting to take certain challenges on. The young man in question wanted a normal sex life with someone that would enjoy having sex with him - and let's face it, that's an awful lot easier with someone who hasn't had their clitoris removed. I don't think sexual compatibility is an unreasonable expectation when you might be stuck with the same one person for 50 odd years.

My point was that - again, if I recall correctly - FGM is often performed on girls to make them suitable marriage prospects. If education can change that opinion, and it can, then in the long-term it can only be a good. In the short to medium term there's going to be problems: some men will want cut girls and some will avoid them. It's bloody sad for the girls themselves, who are victims of abuse. FGM is a disgusting practice.

[dug_down_deep]

She's better off without him.

[Faerie]

Yes, she's likely better off without him, but keeping in mind that it is generally the Mother's that ALLOW this to happen to their daughters, to the point of requesting the ritual to take place at a certain time, he is possibly over-cautious of marrying someone that might bow to the custom. His logic is likely that he wants a "liberal" woman from within his culture whose parents taught her that it is abuse and thus preventing it from happening to his own daughters. This line of thinking I can applaud because within another generation, his sons will be outspoken against it too, this long-term (two generations at least) process will eventually kill the custom quite efficiently from within.

The sad fact is that she'll probably end up with a man that approves of it and she will allow it to happen to her daughters due to pressure from family. Women generally, on this side of the world, hold no power and have no voice, we can bleat and shout and run awareness campaigns till we blue in the face but it will change not a thing in the minds of those in control - the men who condone it.

[rlogan]

Jesus H. Christ


I have occasion to think about this as birth draws near. So this caught my eye. Wow, so much worse...

I could not discern enough from the thread about how they justified it.

I realize from the girl's perspective she does it so she will be marriageable. That doesn't explain what the males think it accomplishes. I couldn't see what virginity had to do with it.

http://www.dhushara.com/book/orsin/rites/rite.htm

Anyway the reasoning there were things like:

The reasons given for clitoridectomies in Egypt are 'cleanliness,' and 'so that girls will not run after men."' In many societies, it is also believed that if the baby's head touches the clitoris during delivery, the infant will die.

Well surely the life of a child is worth taking off the mother's clitoris...


We aren't going to mutilate our child. Pretty crazy parents could do this.


At any rate, the reasons behind it are horrifically stupid. I just wanted to know what they were. I suspected this vague "cleanliness" and discouraging infidelity in theory by making sex unenjoyable was behind it.

[dug_down_deep]

This 'cleanliness' thing is a meme that has created suffering throughout the ages. It perseveres today, despite science.

[Matty]

and in both male and female examples

[farhat]

I hope she can find him. Men like that are rare.

I hope she can find him too. I wouldn't date someone like that exclusively, let alone get married to her. It would be hard to have anything like a normal sex life with someone like that and I value that a lot.

[Magdlyn]

One saving grace. Even women who have had their clits removed still have the urethral sponge, or gspot area. The gspot, just inside the vagina, and the labia (if they havent been carved away), are full of nerve endings and get engorged and sensitive when aroused. Women who have undergone FGM can still cum.

Take that you stupid hateful misogynists!

[Matty]

Blame the older chicks too, they do the fucking cutting, thinking it is religiously and traditionally valid.

[premjan]

Maybe they just think it prevents the girls having premarital sex.

[Matty]

which only really matters in a religious framework no?

[premjan]

Well, pre/extra-marital sex is a problem in traditional societies regardless of religion. It becomes easier to deal with in modern societies where all the complications of pregnancy out of wedlock, availability of contraception and abortion etc. are not an issue.

[farhat]

One saving grace. Even women who have had their clits removed still have the urethral sponge, or gspot area. The gspot, just inside the vagina, and the labia (if they havent been carved away), are full of nerve endings and get engorged and sensitive when aroused. Women who have undergone FGM can still cum.

Take that you stupid hateful misogynists!

Why do so many women equate good sex with orgasming?

[Bane]

One saving grace. Even women who have had their clits removed still have the urethral sponge, or gspot area. The gspot, just inside the vagina, and the labia (if they havent been carved away), are full of nerve endings and get engorged and sensitive when aroused. Women who have undergone FGM can still cum.

Take that you stupid hateful misogynists!

Why do so many women equate good sex with orgasming?
Well, why do so many men equate good sex with orgasming?

[Sodong]

One saving grace. Even women who have had their clits removed still have the urethral sponge, or gspot area. The gspot, just inside the vagina, and the labia (if they havent been carved away), are full of nerve endings and get engorged and sensitive when aroused. Women who have undergone FGM can still cum.

Take that you stupid hateful misogynists!

Why do so many women equate good sex with orgasming?
Probably, in both men and women, it's because an orgasm releases all kinds of biochemicals that are involved in emotional bonding and we tend to feel much better, more satisfied, closer to our partners, etc. when this happens. Sex is as much an emotional/psychological thing as it is a physical/genital thing, but it's the neurochemicals released just prior to and during orgasm that make us feel good about it all :)

[Sodong]

which only really matters in a religious framework no?Not exactly. Marriage in many of the societies that practice FGM are or were (prior to colonialism) based on "brideprice". Something similar in western societies is known as "dowry". I think Premjan is correct in saying that it's to prevent/deter premarital sex but it's more complex and economic than that. Many families in such traditional societies depend(ed) on a brideprice for their livelihood and survival. If a family had many daughters it was incumbent upon the parents to get the highest brideprice possible, especially if they also had sons for which they would have to pay a brideprice. For families lacking high social status (fetches the biggest brideprice), a virgin bride was highly prized. (Why, I don't know), but its roots bear more in common with reciprocity than misogyny, really, though we consider it so from our perspective.

[farhat]

One saving grace. Even women who have had their clits removed still have the urethral sponge, or gspot area. The gspot, just inside the vagina, and the labia (if they havent been carved away), are full of nerve endings and get engorged and sensitive when aroused. Women who have undergone FGM can still cum.

Take that you stupid hateful misogynists!

Why do so many women equate good sex with orgasming?
Well, why do so many men equate good sex with orgasming?

Well, I don't so I have no idea, but since Magdlyn claimed the above she could answer at least that part.

[Magdlyn]

What a strange question! :eek: Sex w/o a few Os would leave me horny and unsatisfied. Cuddling is fun too, but one of the goals of sex is the orgasm(s), the release.

:dunno:

At least for me. I know some men are into orgasm denial... is that what you like, farhat?

[Bane]

What a strange question! :eek: Sex w/o a few Os would leave me horny and unsatisfied. Cuddling is fun too, but one of the goals of sex is the orgasm(s), the release.

:dunno:

At least for me. I know some men are into orgasm denial... is that what you like, farhat?
Well, yeah, exactly, Magdlyn.:) Sure, I like the closeness, but for me the idea is also to end up tired and feeling fantastic! :D

[farhat]

What a strange question! :eek: Sex w/o a few Os would leave me horny and unsatisfied. Cuddling is fun too, but one of the goals of sex is the orgasm(s), the release.

:dunno:

At least for me. I know some men are into orgasm denial... is that what you like, farhat?

No, but if it was all about the orgasm I can get that without a partner too. So, personally, there is more to sex than just coming.

[Bane]

What a strange question! :eek: Sex w/o a few Os would leave me horny and unsatisfied. Cuddling is fun too, but one of the goals of sex is the orgasm(s), the release.

:dunno:

At least for me. I know some men are into orgasm denial... is that what you like, farhat?

No, but if it was all about the orgasm I can get that without a partner too. So, personally, there is more to sex than just coming.
Well, yeah!

[Magdlyn]

Jeez, farhat, the issue was, can mutilated women cum? I say, yes, some still can.

Of course there's more to sex than cumming. In the case of FGM, there's the baby making factor above all else for the woman. Her pleasure is to be downplayed.

We were talking about a woman's right to sexual pleasure...

Cuddling is great, but sometimes you just want a release, a good one, w a partner, not just masturbatory.