dealing with a former manager

[B.H.]

In the past I have talked to a couselor about problems and abuse I faced at work in the past at a certain place.

I was severely mistreated and it seemed like rules applied to some but not others, policy was selectively enforced and so forth. Now, I know this happens everywhere to some degree and lots of times there is no evil intent meant, but these people I worked for flagrantly and willfully mistreated others and were unfair just to be hateful.

Anyway, one of the managers I worked for had her house burn down several months ago. She runs into me at wal-mart and asks me to help her out (buy some towels or something)

I told her I would not do so because of how she treated me, she was not to ever speak to me again, and if necessary I would take it to the police. She did an about face and walked away. No huffy puffy blowhardism like she showed at work.

MY couselor told me the problem was that where I worked the authority figures actually had a very low self esteem, but at the same time had been conditioned to believe that to be the authority or somehow over others you had to be "better" than others. My couselor focuses on work issues and he said this is completely a myth most of the time. He has counseled lots of people who are having problems due to work because they picked the wrong people for jobs for the wrong reasons and it came back to bite them. Anyway, these managers because of their low self esteem had to bully and abuse those under them to make themselves feel powerful and better and somehow justify the idea they were "better" than us.

Here is my question. Can one morally defend retaliating against an employer or authority figure on a personal level as long as the unfairness is truly there and that the retaliation is not of an illegal nature or cause severe troubles to innocent third parties?

I was raised to turn the other cheek, but in my gut I believe that is wrong in certain situations. I try to be fair and listen myself, and undestand I shouldn't and/or just aren't going to get my way. There are honest opinions that simply are different. I've worked other places and gotten promotions, been declined promotions---and never felt it was ever personal. A decision had to be made and sometimes it went your way and sometimes it didn't. I also understand we are all human. Sometimes I have had bosses lose their temper for something I supposeldy did but the anger was really about something else not related to me, and they apologized for being too harsh. But this place and this woman I refused to help took the cake.

I guess what haunts me is that the moral view I was raised with "Turn the other cheek" does not result in justice being done. Actually, I find it disempowering and makes me think I should accept a "less than" status.

I guess I am posting this here because most of you are atheists or agnostics, and in lots of situations you can see through bull shit better than religious people.

[Matty]

Here is my question. Can one morally defend retaliating against an employer or authority figure on a personal level as long as the unfairness is truly there and that the retaliation is not of an illegal nature or cause severe troubles to innocent third parties?
Kin ay you can though in your case i would say you didnt exactly overtly retaliate, you simply didn't help them out. If you punched her in the face it might have been different but i dont see there is any onus to hand out help to people that you know for a fact, and from personal experience are cunts.

[Garnet]

I have been in the work force for almost 30 years. In that entire time, I've only dealt with two people, one who was my direct supervisor and one who was a co-worker, whom I would not piss on if they were on fire. Oddly enough, the jobs where I encountered these people were one right after another and within a 4-year time span.

Everyone has bad days. Some folks are in jobs for which they are not fit. Some people are just assholes, others are incompetant or stupid or just plain clueless. I can honestly forgive all of that and move on. But the two people I mentioned above acted in ways that caused me personal and professional harm. I shan't elaborate on that.

I don't dwell on them or their actions. However, if either of them were to approach me for anything, the most mild response and I can imagine making would be, "Fuck off and die."

I'm not worried a bit whether anyone else would think my attitude towards these two is wrong. I've thought for a long time the idea of turning the other cheek in all situations is naive, at best.

[Matty]

there was one boss i had that drove me nuts, he was a corrupt little old cunt and milking everything he could from cancer charity money etc, as well as an awful person.

This is the guy who for every piece of research his science team did, if they were lucky they would be acknowledged as "his staff" in the foot notes, the only people ever give authorship on the parer were this tool of a bloke, and his secretary wife who "wrote" the paper he dictated.

Then he would get in your face and shout at you as well. He had 2 of the female members of the team as nervous wrecks, crying and shit all the time. I got in his face once to cop the bollocking because my lab mate just couldnt hack it any more. Eventually his entire staff (except the wife of course) file multiple grievances with both institutions he was employed under, with a ream of cataloged information and quit.
After a protracted series of "investigations" and "chats" (the larger hearing of which he declined to turn up for despite their being Heads of dept, faculty bosses, hospital bosses and the dean of science waiting for him, and with no notice, he just didnt show. Ever seen a dean of science hit the fucking roof? )he was nudged to take early retirement. Fucking awesome.

The only reason i didnt kick the living shit out of the little twat was because i would give him the satisfaction of having me charged with assault, no matter how may times i have idly fantasied about running into him in a no comebacks situation.

as for if i ran into him on the street begging i would give every penny i was carrying........ to the guy in the next shop doorway. I would have no compunction in telling him to go fuck himself if he were clinging to my ankles and crying.

Does that make me a bad person? Meh. Do i care. No.
For the last three months when it was becoming really unbearable i wasnt sleeping and was for the first time in my life, actually stressed. Fuck him.

This was the only boss i ever had that i had anything other than a cool relationship with. Working for a terrible scientist and a corrupt and petty little power wielding asshole, was an experience i would never wish to repeat. Live and learn and all that. With hindsight I'm actually quite grateful for the insight so early in my career, but i still wouldnt give him the steam off my piss.

:)

[munnki]

I have been through a similar experience. I was essentially bullied into resigning in a former job... They also provided false references and were generally evil in a way that requires concentrated focus. In my case I considered taking a suit against them but decided on the lesser path of leaving and moving on... I sometimes regret that but I'm happier now... You're right that to take action would be the morally higher path but in my case I was so upset and angry about the situation that I decided to leave it behind. I can't discuss the details yet... mostly because I'm so mad about them but I know what you're describing. I comfort myself with the fact that the institution (based on its decisions following my resignation) has learned no lessons and has appointed a person with far less experience than me into a complex role. This individual has a history of physical manifestations due to stress... I can't get into it. Sometimes it's easier just to get out of a negative situation and to leave it behind.

[B.H.]

I try to be fair and listen myself, and undestand I shouldn't and/or just aren't going to get my way

I meant to write:


I try to be fair and listen myself, and undestand I shouldn't and/or just aren't going to get my way all of the time.

[Bane]

I've had plenty of "powers that be" kind of problems--not work, but general problems. There are a few people who I wouldn't toss a 50 pence piece to if they were beggars!

Turning the other cheek is idealism, IMO. Some things just are unforgivable (i.e. you can't make up with the person who committed the wrong), like being tormented for years by someone you were supposed to trust.

[JamesBannon]

How did you retaliate? You simply said no, and for what seem like good reasons. There are a few people I wouldn't spit on if they were on fire, my father among them (even though he's now dead - thankfully).

[B.H.]

How did you retaliate? You simply said no, and for what seem like good reasons. There are a few people I wouldn't spit on if they were on fire, my father among them (even though he's now dead - thankfully).

:D Doing what I did I consider to be retaliating.

[Jobar]

B.H., that's one of those situations where Christians are supposed to forgive their enemies. But if every Christian did that, there would be non-Christians who consistently took them for all they could get.

In this case, your response seems quite rational and even-handed to me.

If it had been me, I might have bought a single facecloth and given it to her. Depending on how I felt that day, I might or might not have wiped my ass with it first. :evil:

[dug_down_deep]

How did you retaliate? You simply said no, and for what seem like good reasons. There are a few people I wouldn't spit on if they were on fire, my father among them (even though he's now dead - thankfully).

:D Doing what I did I consider to be retaliating.
Do you feel guilty about it? Would it make you feel better to apologize or something like that? I don't think it's good to fight with your conscience.

[B.H.]

How did you retaliate? You simply said no, and for what seem like good reasons. There are a few people I wouldn't spit on if they were on fire, my father among them (even though he's now dead - thankfully).

:D Doing what I did I consider to be retaliating.
Do you feel guilty about it? Would it make you feel better to apologize or something like that? I don't think it's good to fight with your conscience.


I do not doubt 100% that what I did was right. People like that do not learn any other way, if they even learn at all. What saddens me is how so many people would have just helped and gone on thinking they should just forgive and go on. They would be victimized again.

I visit a website from time to time called LoveFraud. It's about healing and dealing with encounters with sociopaths in ones life. I'm not formally qualified to say who is a sociopath---do not have the credentials, but I will say that the main manager probably would be diagnosed as some sort of antisocial in either its narcissistic, sociopathic, or antisocial personality disorder forms. The others were just as mean but more of the wannabe type. One was a type who would dislike who she was told to dislike, and like those told to like. A puppet so to speak. That was the one I told off at Walmart. Anyway, one thing I have read at LoveFraud and other websites and books dealing with antisocials is you never turn the other cheek with them, and you never let them get away with anything. Never forgive, never flinch, never turn your back.

[Jobar]

B.H., there's an old II thread (http://www.freeratio.org/thearchives/showthread.php?p=2267248#post2267248) that talks about this in depth. Look for the link I gave in one of my posts to a close analysis of the Prisoner's Dilemma.

Altruism is a fascinating and complex subject.

[B.H.]

I need to use stronger language than I did in my last post.

It angers me that some people have been conditioned to believe that if someone shits all over them, bullies them, takes their liveyhood away or threatens to for petty reasons, ect. the person victimized is wrong in not just going on and acting like nothing happened and be all love and forgiveness.

In my opinion, if you are big enough to fuck with someone under you without any power to meaningfully stop it, you are big enough to take in the ass when your time comes and find yourself in the power of those who used to be under you.

[dug_down_deep]

Yeah, if you don't feel badly about it, I can't see any rational reason for thinking it's morally wrong. And definitely, if they dish it out no tears should be shed about the fact they have to eat it eventually.

[frazier]

For the possible price of a set of towels, she had the opportunity to learn a valuable lesson. Whether she learns or not is not your problem. You stood up for yourself, and got to help her out, all at the same time. Win-win!

[LoneWolf]

If everyone turned the other cheek then what would be the incentive for pricks to stop being pricks?

Sometimes the advice in the Bible that even liberal Christians and non-believers like to tout as good advice isn't actually all that great. People love the Sermon on the Mount but it has some of the worst advice I have ever seen. Don't plan for tomorrow? What the hell kind of advice is that!?

[B.H.]

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[Valheru]

Karma is a bitch, B.H, and your former manager got hers in spades. In my opinion, though, you stooped to her level with deliberately spiteful behaviour when a simple excuse or white lie could have sufficed. I believe that you abandoned the moral high ground you had claim to.

There's a difference between turning the other cheek, and not allowing people to exploit you. One doesn't need to go on the offensive in order to set your boundaries.

[Bane]

Karma is a bitch, B.H, and your former manager got hers in spades. In my opinion, though, you stooped to her level with deliberately spiteful behaviour when a simple excuse or white lie could have sufficed. I believe that you abandoned the moral high ground you had claim to.

There's a difference between turning the other cheek, and not allowing people to exploit you. One doesn't need to go on the offensive in order to set your boundaries.
There are things that are unforgivable. Years of viciousness in a situation the recipient of said behaviour cannot get out of for any particular reason, would be on my list.

And, IMO, lying would get on my conscience more than just saying "No, I'm not going to buy you any towels". Making an excuse would probably be fine, if it was partially true at least as opposed to an outright lie.

[Valheru]

And, IMO, lying would get on my conscience more than just saying "No, I'm not going to buy you any towels". Making an excuse would probably be fine, if it was partially true at least as opposed to an outright lie.

I agree, lying isn't necessarily a moral alternative.

The picture being painted by B.H's story is that she gloated in the psychological just-desserts, and jumped at the opportunity.

The irony is that the manager was supposed to have the low self-esteem, but BH's behaviour was no different. She was in the position of power in the supermarket, and acted no differently. That's not deserving of any respect, wasn't a mature course of action, and didn't impart any moral lesson (if that was the aim).

You don't kick people while they're down. You don't need to turn the other cheek, but you don't need to act like an arsehole, either.

[Bane]

Of course.

[Gaojie]

I don't think you did anything wrong in the slightest B.H. I probably wouldn't have mentioned the police, but I would have given her the hardest look possible and then laughed my ass off and told her to get the %#$&* out of my sight! There's nothing much worse than some jerk in a position of authority at work sticking it to people for no or trivial reason and getting away with it day after day, week after week, year after year.

I had a boss for a short time (a couple of months) that seemingly manufactured excuses to jump up in my face and "talk" in threatening tones. I went through the proper channels and complained, even had a talk with the H.R. head. All people seemed to acknowledge that this guy wasn't playing with a full deck but this was no help to me, he was in no danger of facing discipline of any sort.

I actively sought out a new job and left. The day after I put in my notice the jackass comes around and asks if I was leaving because of him, he was such a prick that I lied and told him that he in no way whatsoever influenced my decision. I figured that it wasn't my job to try and change this tyrant and that if the company that we were both working for was going to fail me in this situation my only obligation at that point was to myself and my goal at the time was to make as smooth an exit as possible.

Work situations can really be intolerable at times, people are sometimes just severely messed up. I rememer reading about types of business people and a lot of the successful ones were in fact sociopaths but somehow they were able to thrive in a "business" environment. I might try to find some links on that.

[Matty]

In my opinion, if you are big enough to fuck with someone under you without any power to meaningfully stop it, you are big enough to take in the ass when your time comes and find yourself in the power of those who used to be under you.
Beautifully put, and i agree.

[BioBeing]

My wife had a dept chair who was (and still is) an absolute jerk. He chased many people out, my wife being one of them about 2 years ago. She saw him in a book store the other day. They said "hello" but nothing more. She was just shaking for a while afterwards.

Bosses hold a position of power over other peoples lives, and when they misuse that power, they truly can screw peoples whole lives up.

[Celsus]

During my national service, I had a particularly unpleasant sergeant senior to me who was notorious for making the other national servicemen's lives miserable. He normally steered clear of me as I was also a specialist but one night while I was on duty he came down and yelled at me because I'd sent the duty driver to pick him up at the wrong location. He made such a ruckus the camp duty staff officer showed up and it continued for over an hour. He was reeking of alcohol then, so the next morning, before he could come down to the line to complain about me (as I was sure he would), I went and told the whole world he was drunk and caused a commotion because I knew he'd still be smelling of alcohol because he was a fucking drunk (and sure enough he did exactly that and fell straight into the trap when he marched into my officer's office smelling of it). I was so mad with him that day I swear I would have hit him if he came anywhere near me. He was made to sign several extra duties but I personally hated him after that (there were other times his general assholeness grated the wrong way but this time it was personal), even though he never spoke to me again. Drinking while on duty is a chargeable offense in the army (as in, you get a record equivalent to a criminal record in civilian life), and I was still mad he didn't get the right "by-the-book" punishment and was let off relatively lightly.

So 10 years later, my old drivers told me they saw him outside, that he'd been discharged, that his Filipina wife had left him and taken their son back to the Philippines, that his hair had turned all white (he's only about 45 now I would think), and that he was an alcoholic and had begged them for $2 to get some food. They refused to give even that to him and said he could go to hell.

Karma is a bitch. I would have rubbed his face in it if he'd had the nerve to ask me for money, and then not helped him. I don't have to explain some moral consequence. We all make our own actions for which other people will make reactions. But I'm generally an asshole to people I don't like, never mind ones I have deeprooted animosity toward.