It is clear that Islam is right and all other beliefs wrong

[DMB]

...according to this chap

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How would you argue with him?

[munnki]

DMB, I don't know how you can watch this whack. The only positive thing I could find in it was that they referred to unbelievers using 'a' rather than 'the'.

The one thing priests, imans, rabbis and all from the nonsense-mongering class have in common is that they always attempt proof by analogy. "If this barely-similar analogy is true in some set-up way then isn't my main premise true." So we end up foolishness like "isn't the fact that since we fancy people who can say '2+2=4' as better maths teachers demonstrative that we're f£$ked if we're going to allow churches to be built in Saudi Arabia." Sadly, some people are humbled by such folly.

The other ones from before were funnier. A response which [i.e. laughter], like the throwing of shoes, is the only reasonable response to such muppetry.

At best, this guy needs to be told to get 'a real job'.

[lpetrich]

I agree -- religious apologists are fond of arguments from analogy, no matter how specious that analogy might be. Mr. Naik also evaded the question of other religions' claims to similar levels of certainty.

I put his math problems to work in guessing what language he was speaking. Mr. Naik sometimes spoke English, but most of the time spoke some other language(s). From his math problems, I guessed from context and intonation that
2 = do
3 = tin
4 = char
6 = che

I guessed that that was some Indo-European language, since "2" and "3" are usually recognizable across them. I looked in Mark Rosenfelder's List of Words for 1 to 10 in 5000 Languages (http://www.zompist.com/numbers.shtml), and I concluded that he was likely speaking Punjabi (a language of Pakistan) or perhaps Hindi/Urdu (a language of northern India). Since there are big Muslim populations in those areas, that would not be very surprising.

The math problems are about 1 minute into the video, and are 2 + 2 = 3 or 4 or 6

[munnki]

He's speaking Punjabi... many of my students used to speak it... all of them were [Pakistani] Muslim...

[Anne]

I can usually find transcripts--- can someone find one for this for me? My googlefu is broken right now...

[premjan]

He's speaking Urdu. Which is mutually intelligible with Hindi (somewhat less with Punjabi). I think his point is reasonable - Muslims are certain of their religion the way others are certain of mathematics. Whereas other religions are not so certain of their own religion. I say we need secular countries where all religions are banned, since we are certain that all religions are false.

[B.H.]

From my understanding Naik is thought of in most Muslim circles kinda like how Robert Tilton is thought of in Christian circles.

Listen to the commentator towards the end of the video. He is Muslim and basically says Naik is a jack-off. That's how I see him.

There are so many verse in the Quran that go against what he says I suspect he is a front for some organization backing him behind the scenes that wants to see shit stirred up.

There is to be no compulsion in religion. Also, we are told in the Quran not to tear down churches, temples, and any place God is worshipped.

[DMB]

From my understanding Naik is thought of in most Muslim circles kinda like how Robert Tilton is thought of in Christian circles.

Listen to the commentator towards the end of the video. He is Muslim and basically says Naik is a jack-off. That's how I see him.

There are so many verse in the Quran that go against what he says I suspect he is a front for some organization backing him behind the scenes that wants to see shit stirred up.

There is to be no compulsion in religion. Also, we are told in the Quran not to tear down churches, temples, and any place God is worshipped.

He apparently has a huge following.

That no compulsion in religion is one of the early surahs, and therefore given less weight than others.

Tearing down churches isn't quite the same as stopping them from being built in the first place.

[lpetrich]

As to "no compulsion in religion", I once saw a Muslim claim that punishment of apostates is appropriate, because that is what one does with traitors.

Wikipedia has an article on him: Zakir Naik - he has lived in Mumbai, India.

[B.H.]

From my understanding Naik is thought of in most Muslim circles kinda like how Robert Tilton is thought of in Christian circles.

Listen to the commentator towards the end of the video. He is Muslim and basically says Naik is a jack-off. That's how I see him.

There are so many verse in the Quran that go against what he says I suspect he is a front for some organization backing him behind the scenes that wants to see shit stirred up.

There is to be no compulsion in religion. Also, we are told in the Quran not to tear down churches, temples, and any place God is worshipped.

He apparently has a huge following.

That no compulsion in religion is one of the early surahs, and therefore given less weight than others.

Tearing down churches isn't quite the same as stopping them from being built in the first place.

If the no compulsion in religion is an early surah and given little weight why are so many more scholarly type Muslims saying what I am saying then?

The Quran is a wonderful book, but evil people read into it what they want to get from it and ignore other parts or concoct reasons why this or that teaching somehow doesn't apply today. It says in the Quran that Allah tells the beloeved Prophet that if Allah willed he could make the whole world believe, but chose not to, so who was the Prophet to try to make others believe against their will?

Don't be like the Republicans and give into scare tactics used on them by their leaders when trying to overcome the Democrats.

Naik is a kook and sure he has followers but so did Joseph Smith, televangelists like Tilton, and that fool that had his followers committ suicide in Guyana back in 1979.

Believe me, if mainstream Muslims were taught to kill infidels just for being infidels and desire martyrdom in Jihad against the West to attain Paradise we would have found a way to kill every last one of you already. There are a billion of us you know.

[B.H.]

As to "no compulsion in religion", I once saw a Muslim claim that punishment of apostates is appropriate, because that is what one does with traitors.

Wikipedia has an article on him: Zakir Naik - he has lived in Mumbai, India.


I heard once that Americans hang people who don't want to be American anymore.

I even heard it was written in their constitution that traitors can be put to death.

[DMB]

I know some Muslims IRL and I know that they are not all fanatics. It does, however, worry me that the fanatics get such mileage and have such influence. Every time that there is an opinion poll we find that in some countries a majority espouse extremist views and even in the west a sizeable minority do so.

Don't forget that in Saudi Arabia you have a whole country that seems to be devoted to spreading an extremist form of Islam worldwide and providing the funds to do so.

I also see from day to day how the OIC perverts the UN Human Rights Council. It is a disgrace that this organisation is representing Islam to the world.

[B.H.]

One thing I want to know is what people out there really think.

I post on this discussion board I am linking to every once in a while.

I asked them to tell me about what we are talking about here:


http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?p=375900#post375900


I did pm a few and basically asked the same question I linked to here, but I didn't tell them I was posting a link here. Let's see what they say.

[B.H.]

Without going into detail, one of those pming me back was from Pakistan. He said there was freedom of religion there, and that Christmas was a holiday! edited to add: he said Christians were respected by Muslims and vice versa.

[DMB]

Sorry, BH, but that is propaganda. Christians are quite frequently attacked in Pakistan and the main victims of the blasphemy laws are Christians. Of course, there are also many cases of the "wrong sort" of Muslims being attacked, Shias by Sunnis and vice versa, and everybody appears to hate the Ahmadis.

Pakistan is a deeply corrupt country where all sorts of abuses of human rights go on all the time. If you are part of the educated urban middle class, you are able to live a decent life. It is another story for the poor and those living in the tribal areas. Where do you think the Taleban came from?

[B.H.]

Sorry, BH, but that is propaganda. Christians are quite frequently attacked in Pakistan and the main victims of the blasphemy laws are Christians. Of course, there are also many cases of the "wrong sort" of Muslims being attacked, Shias by Sunnis and vice versa, and everybody appears to hate the Ahmadis.

Pakistan is a deeply corrupt country where all sorts of abuses of human rights go on all the time. If you are part of the educated urban middle class, you are able to live a decent life. It is another story for the poor and those living in the tribal areas. Where do you think the Taleban came from?


If you don't mind can I post this post of yours in the one I linked to?

[B.H.]

Okay, DMB has challenged my Pakistani.

I'll offer him a Bangladeshi and see what he thinks.

I got a pm from a Bangladeshi who said there was freedom of religion in his country, with 12% of the population Hindu. He said you find temples and churches all over, and non-Muslims are members of Parliament.

[B.H.]

Indonesian said that his country has many different religions in it and the Muslims do not persecute non-Muslims. Freedom of religion there too.

[B.H.]

Sorry, BH, but that is propaganda. Christians are quite frequently attacked in Pakistan and the main victims of the blasphemy laws are Christians. Of course, there are also many cases of the "wrong sort" of Muslims being attacked, Shias by Sunnis and vice versa, and everybody appears to hate the Ahmadis.

Pakistan is a deeply corrupt country where all sorts of abuses of human rights go on all the time. If you are part of the educated urban middle class, you are able to live a decent life. It is another story for the poor and those living in the tribal areas. Where do you think the Taleban came from?


If you don't mind can I post this post of yours in the one I linked to?


I heard there was freedom of religion in France too, but a muslima told me that was just propaganda too.:p

[B.H.]

Looks like The Maldives does outlaw other religions.

Sunni Islam is the state religion per see the constitution.

[premjan]

Bangladesh is better than Pakistan but when the Babari mosque came down in India, they had huge arson against Hindu temples.

[DMB]

You should ask why Taslima Nasrin had to flee Bangladesh. I don't think Bangladesh is as bad as Pakistan on average, but they are still intolerant. For example, this happened a few days ago:

http://www.southeastasianews.net/story/540913

Armed Muslim gangs in Solepur, located close to Dhaka, have been targeting Christians for several weeks, forcing many members of the community to flee the area.

Forced land sales and motorcycle thefts are rampant in the area and despite the incidents being reported, the police has done little to prevent the targeting of the minority community .

People are so frightened that they have now stopped talking about the criminal activities fearing retaliatory attacks.

Christians are a tiny minority in Bangladesh, but this sort of thing is not new.

ETA: I don't want to suggest that violence against religious minorities occurs only in Islamic countries, but what is unfortunately typical is the inactivity of the police.

[DMB]

Indonesia is better than either Pakistan or Bangladesh, although there is some nasty violence against religious minorities there too.

[lpetrich]

Sorry, BH, but that is propaganda. Christians are quite frequently attacked in Pakistan and the main victims of the blasphemy laws are Christians. Of course, there are also many cases of the "wrong sort" of Muslims being attacked, Shias by Sunnis and vice versa, and everybody appears to hate the Ahmadis.
The eminent physicist Abdus Salam had helped develop the theory of electroweak unification, sharing a Nobel Prize for doing so. A short-short summary of it: at distances of about 10-17 m or less, the electromagnetic and weak interactions are about the same strength and are easily recognizable as parts of the same interactions.

He was born in Pakistan, so one might expect Pakistanis to be making a national hero out of him. But they notice that he had been an Ahmadi Muslim, so they treat him as a nobody.

[premjan]

Indonesia is better than either Pakistan or Bangladesh, although there is some nasty violence against religious minorities there too.Also Islamic militancy.

[Celsus]

It's pretty obvious when someone saying "there is freedom of religion" it tends to refer to the legal status of religious choice - i.e. they are allowed to preserve their religion; whereas the socio-cultural environment in which they're allowed to practise their chosen religion may be a wholly different matter.

But yes, officially, Pakistan allows freedom of religion as long as you stay within the religion of your choice or convert to Islam. Socially, especially for born Muslims (potential apostates), not so much.

[Mung Dynasty]

Re the OP: Zakir Naik is a liar and a tosser of the first order. The best way to argue with him is a blunt axe to the forehead. It's the only thing that will get through his skull. :D

[Mung Dynasty]

From my understanding Naik is thought of in most Muslim circles kinda like how Robert Tilton is thought of in Christian circles.

Listen to the commentator towards the end of the video. He is Muslim and basically says Naik is a jack-off. That's how I see him.

There are so many verse in the Quran that go against what he says I suspect he is a front for some organization backing him behind the scenes that wants to see shit stirred up.

There is to be no compulsion in religion. Also, we are told in the Quran not to tear down churches, temples, and any place God is worshipped.You are misinterpreting that sura. The "no compulsion in religion" refers to the Islamic belief that everyone is born Muslim. The meaning is that if children are not compelled to adopt another religion they will stay in their natural Islamic state and this should be allowed.

In other words, it is not a prohibition on forcibly converting people to Islam as it is sometimes represented. I'm not saying that Muslims are in favour of forcible conversions (although some are) just pointing out the misapprehension here.

[DMB]

Another example of Pakistan's tolerance of minorities:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32875912/ns/world_news-south_and_central_asia

Pakistani Christians clashed with security forces Wednesday at the funeral of a Christian man who police said hanged himself in jail while being held on accusations he defiled the Muslim holy book. Some Christian leaders alleged he was murdered.

The clashes — just weeks after eight Christians were burned to death by a Muslim mob — are a reminder of the tensions simmering in religious minority communities in Muslim-majority Pakistan, where a spreading Taliban movement has fueled Islamist extremism.

[BracesForImpact]

As a rule, I never argue with anyone wearing a funny hat. But in any case, why does it so often seem that Islamic "scholars" are very smug and seem to attempt to cast this aura of wisdom about them, yet their arguments can be taken apart by a seven year old with half a lick of common sense?

[premjan]

Like other religions, the lure is emotional or political.

[JamesBannon]

The Quran and the Hadiths are fit only for fuel or fertiliser, as are the bible and so forth. How any educated person can believe that shit is beyond me to comprehend.

ETA: I'm pretty certain it's Urdu the guy is speaking (mixed with English). The people who own the corner shop just round the corner from me speak Punjabi (in addition to very good English) and it sounds nothing like that. I ask them about the "hymns" they sometimes have playing and what some of the words mean.

[Ray Moscow]

I also take issue with BH's statement that the Koran is a great book. It's anything but.

Aside from its very troubling religious statemetns, they say that it's the greatest achievement of Arabic literature. If that's true, that doesn't say much about Arabic literature, does it?

Even so, I do want to learn a bit more Arabic since I'm starting to travel to the region again.