Conspiracy theories

[Pendaric]

I'm not a kook, I don't wear a tinfoil hat, and I'm not ridiculously paranoid. But I do enjoy reading a good conspiracy theory, and I'm pretty sure that the odd one which gets generally ridiculed will turn out to be more or less right with the benefit of hindsight.

For example, whilst it gets overdone and ridiculous with talk of shapeshifting lizards, aliens and illuminati, I do accept some of the basic tenets of the 'New World Order' stuff, in that I think it's fairly self evident that the mega rich and high ranking politicians do tend to congregate, and a lot of the stuff that happens on a global scale is as a result of those meetings. And I could believe that there is a general goal of making the rich richer and the powerful more powerful, where the elite helping each other is at least a consideration above and beyond national interest.

I also wouldn't have been totally staggered to find out that Diana, the late Princess of Wales, had been murdered on the orders of the Royal family. I don't think she was, but it isn't beyond the bounds of possibility. British history is full of royal intrigue and plots against heirs to the throne, and it isn't that silly to think that the present incumbents are just as capable of schemes as their predecessors were. It was probably considered a conspiracy theory at the time to think that Richard III would have the princes murdered in the tower, but to the best of our knowledge that's what happened, even allowing for Shakespeare's massive overdramatisation.

So, possibly you now think I'm nuts. But are there any of the conspiracy theories out there that you think might have a grain of truth in them? Was DrewJ right all along?

[DMB]

Ah, but some people maintain that Shakespeare's Richard III was just Tudor propaganda and it was Henry VII wot dun em in.

[Lisa0315]

We have a saying where I work: "Paranoia equals heightened awareness." Long funny story, but I guess I would not be shocked at anything these days involving secret government actions especially under Bush. Aliens and that kind of shit, nah.

[Garnet]

OK, I'll make a confession.


I'm still not convinced that Oswald was the lone shooter in the Kennedy assasination.

*ducks and runs*

[David B]

I'm pretty sure there was a conspiracy between Bush and Bliar, and their respective intelligence services, to justify the war in Iraq by lying about WMD.

David

[DMB]

I'm pretty sure there was a conspiracy between Bush and Bliar, and their respective intelligence services, to justify the war in Iraq by lying about WMD.

David

I agree that there's a non-zero probability, but WTF did they get out of it? And what did they hope or expect to get out of it? And was it Bush, or was it Cheney with his hand up Bush's arse?

[Garnet]

The day that Bush was inaurgurated, I turned to MT and said, "So, how long do you think before we're at it with Iraq to finish what his Daddy couldn't do?"

That's why I've never been surprised by the war in Iraq and why I've always looked with an extremely jaundiced eye at the evidence for WMD. I have to admit, though, that Colin Powell did have me convinced for a little while. But as soon as we got in there and didn't find any WMDs, I came back to my senses and realized we'd been had.

[David B]

I agree that there's a non-zero probability, but WTF did they get out of it? And what did they hope or expect to get out of it? And was it Bush, or was it Cheney with his hand up Bush's arse?

I suspect mixed motives, and that it wasn't so much what they got out of it, as what they hoped to get out of it. With Cheney and his buddies hoping to get lots of money out of it.

What they hoped to get out of it, I hypothesise, was a triumph, being hailed by most Iraqis as liberators, a big PR triumph within the Muslim world as a result of that, lots of kudos at home, and access to a load of cheap oil.

FAIL!

If I'm being charitable, I'd add the suggestion that they were distressed by the fate of the Kurds and the Marsh people, and feeling guilty about their failure to act promptly in the face of the various genocides and ethnic cleansing in the former Yugoslavia. So being determined to act promptly in this case, even at the price of lying about WMD, hoping it would be forgotten in the face of a military and PR triumph.

And I'll throw in the personal stuff about Bush Jr wanting to finish what public opinion prevented his father from completing.

David

[Lisa0315]

Oh, please remember, "The War will pay for itself". Yeah, that sure happened. :(

Lisa

[Mediancat]

OK, I'll make a confession.


I'm still not convinced that Oswald was the lone shooter in the Kennedy assasination.

*ducks and runs*

Oddly, I've been convinced that he was ever since seeing JFK.

Rob

[Garnet]

Oddly, I've been convinced that he was ever since seeing JFK.

Rob

That was an interesting movie. I don't recall the particulars, though.

[Mediancat]

Stone was trying to convince us, via a retelling of Jim Garrison's attempted railroading of Clay Shaw, that there was a massive conspiracy involved in the killing.

Stone, though, doesn't do subtle, so all of the points he made with sledgehammers only convinced me that the opposite had to be true.

Rob

[David B]

As an aside, I once watched a tv prog on the Grateful Dead. It might have been on the Classic Albums series, which did a prog on two albums in one programme, Live Dead and American Beauty.

In it, a Warner Brothers executive said that Warners had thrown a lot of money at Garrison to get the Dead out of a dope bust.

I remember it, because the name Garrison rang bells.

Don't trust him.

David B (adds, as an aside, that American Beauty had one of the great album covers)

[Loren Pechtel]

I simply don't buy conspiracy theories. You simply can't keep a big, evil secret like that in a free state.

[David B]

I simply don't buy conspiracy theories. You simply can't keep a big, evil secret like that in a free state.

Well it did come out that there weren't any MMD in Iraq.

David

[Brother Daniel]

I simply don't buy conspiracy theories. You simply can't keep a big, evil secret like that in a free state.
Conspiracy is a legally-recognized phenomenon, of which people are sometimes convicted. By juries. In a free state.

Conspiracies happen. It's silly to imagine that they don't.

Yes, there are certain types of conspiracy theories that are far-fetched, even ludicrous. But to disbelieve a theory merely because it involves a conspiracy is a crazy hypercorrection.

[Joykins]

I think there are definitely conspiracies.

That they are simultaneously highly effective and capable of remaining secret, I consider highly unlikely. Think Iran-Contra. Effective, but not kept secret in the long run.

[LoneWolf]

Of course conspiracies happen. As Brother Daniel said it is something for which people are convicted on a semi-regular basis.

It is these large-scale government conspiracies, however, that I find nearly impossible to swallow. One of the things that I have become painfully aware of in my career is that the government is too incompetent and ungainly to carry off these conspiracies. There is always a simpler explanation.

I'm not saying people in the government don't ever TRY to get away with a conspiracy, I'm just saying they are rarely successful at it.

[Mediancat]

Lincoln, for instance, was killed by a conspiracy. One that fell apart the day of the assassination.

Kennedy? 45 years on and what we have is suppositions, lies, unreliable witnesses and dubious photographic evidence. Not a single reliable conspirator in the bunch.

Rob

[DMB]

It can be a surprisingly long time for stuff to come out, though. During WW2 thousands of people knew something of the secret of Ultra/Enigma, and yet nothing came out about it until the 1970s. They were of course, sworn to secrecy.

[Christina]

One of the things that I have become painfully aware of in my career is that the government is too incompetent and ungainly to carry off these conspiracies. There is always a simpler explanation.

I've only worked with politicians and high level administrators at the local level but I absolutely agree that from what I've seen the general level of incompetence, never mind the gossip, would preclude any really juicy conspiracies from taking place. If more than 2 people know, it's out. That said, little political conspiracies to get the spin down pat so they can screw people over or delude the public go on all day, every day, Sometimes I can't believe the shit people will believe when they don't pay attention to the details.

[Hex]

It can be a surprisingly long time for stuff to come out, though. During WW2 thousands of people knew something of the secret of Ultra/Enigma, and yet nothing came out about it until the 1970s. They were of course, sworn to secrecy.

And, if you haven't seen it, look at the stuff about the British "Auxiliary Units". Basically resistance fighters to be put into action if the Germans invaded. And they kept their secrecy about it (as far as I know) until this century. Interesting here because it was both a governement/military conspiracy, but involved civilians.

I couldn't find the original article I'd found it in, but the BBC article that announced Britain's WWII secret army uncovered (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/2833133.stm) does cover it.

The other question which is hard to answer is why the existence of the Auxiliers was kept secret for so long.

Mr Warwicker believes that the government refused to release the files until recently because the actions of the Auxiliers would have been illegal in the international courts.

And the civilians involved kept quiet too ... Neat, huh?

[lpetrich]

I find it hard to take conspiracy theories very seriously -- I tend to consider them unnecessary.

Like all the JFK conspiracy theories -- was it really necessary for there to be a big conspiracy to kill him?

As I see it, Lee Harvey Oswald might have been part of some conspiracy, but that seems to me to be an unnecessary hypothesis. And as far as anyone can determine, he acted alone, and was yet another lone lunatic who killed or tried to kill a President.

I'm reminded of Lord Raglan's Mythic Hero profile, where it takes something big to bring the hero down, and where the hero dies an unusual death in a prominent place.

[Ray Moscow]

Small conspiracies abound, but big ones are unlikely to survive very long. Sooner or later, people talk.

That's my main objection to the Kennedy assassination conspiracy theories -- they get too large to be believable.

[Joykins]

I'm willing to grant an exception for top-secret wartime programs that have a strictly limited number of people.

[Loren Pechtel]

Conspiracy is a legally-recognized phenomenon, of which people are sometimes convicted. By juries. In a free state.

Conspiracies happen. It's silly to imagine that they don't.

Yes, there are certain types of conspiracy theories that are far-fetched, even ludicrous. But to disbelieve a theory merely because it involves a conspiracy is a crazy hypercorrection.

Of course conspiracies happen. Always with a small group of people.

Conspiracy theories always involve situations where huge numbers of people were involved. That's not going to happen.

[Loren Pechtel]

I think there are definitely conspiracies.

That they are simultaneously highly effective and capable of remaining secret, I consider highly unlikely. Think Iran-Contra. Effective, but not kept secret in the long run.

Exactly--they always unravel, generally pretty quickly.

[Loren Pechtel]

It can be a surprisingly long time for stuff to come out, though. During WW2 thousands of people knew something of the secret of Ultra/Enigma, and yet nothing came out about it until the 1970s. They were of course, sworn to secrecy.

Yes--because it didn't involve hiding evil.

[Brother Daniel]

Of course conspiracies happen. Always with a small group of people.

Conspiracy theories always involve situations where huge numbers of people were involved. That's not going to happen.
Funny about that. I thought "conspiracy theory" meant "a theory of a conspiracy", not "a theory of a conspiracy involving a large number of people".

I'm rather bemused by the knee-jerk negative reaction that conspiracy theories (in the general sense) provoke. If you come up with a theory of a conspiracy involving even a very small number of people, many hearers will react with some variation on "but conspiracy theories are always stupid".

I'm not saying you did that, but many people do in my experience.

[Joykins]

Funny about that. I thought "conspiracy theory" meant "a theory of a conspiracy", not "a theory of a conspiracy involving a large number of people".

..."involving world domination."

Conspiracy theories are generally about particular kinds of conspiracy, like hidden alien autopsies and the Illuminati and no doubt the Merovingian heresy.

[Brother Daniel]

I'm familiar with (and entertained by) that kind of conspiracy theory. But I still find it bizarre that people would restrict the term "conspiracy theory" thusly.

[Loren Pechtel]

Funny about that. I thought "conspiracy theory" meant "a theory of a conspiracy", not "a theory of a conspiracy involving a large number of people".

I'm rather bemused by the knee-jerk negative reaction that conspiracy theories (in the general sense) provoke. If you come up with a theory of a conspiracy involving even a very small number of people, many hearers will react with some variation on "but conspiracy theories are always stupid".

I'm not saying you did that, but many people do in my experience.

What people are normally referring to by "conspiracy theories" are conspiracies involving a large number of people, the sort of thing that quickly unravels in reality.

[Pendaric]

Anybody go for any of these:

http://www.wired.com/culture/lifestyle/magazine/15-11/st_best

Nasa Faked the Moon Landings

The US Government Was Behind 9/11

Princess Diana Was Murdered

The Jews Run Hollywood and Wall Street

The Scientologists Run Hollywood

Paul Is Dead

AIDS Is a Man-Made Disease

Church's Fried Chicken Sterilizes Black Men

Lizard-People Run the World

The Illuminati Run the World

[alien billie]

Anybody go for any of these:

http://www.wired.com/culture/lifestyle/magazine/15-11/st_best

Nasa Faked the Moon Landings

The US Government Was Behind 9/11

Princess Diana Was Murdered

The Jews Run Hollywood and Wall Street

The Scientologists Run Hollywood

Paul Is Dead

AIDS Is a Man-Made Disease

Church's Fried Chicken Sterilizes Black Men

Lizard-People Run the World

The Illuminati Run the World

Well I don’t know about all that, but I do know that the Illuminati consist of Alien-Jew Scientologists who are plotting to take over Wall Street from their Hollywood lair. In fact this should be common knowledge to everyone, because Paul stumbled across the fake Moon Landing sets during the making of the Magical Mystery Tour film, but was murdered before he had a chance to do anything other than tattoo the truth onto the left buttock of a very young Princess Di. Once the Alien-Lizard-Jew-Cruise discovered the truth after a particularly wild Royal Performance after-show party, he invented AIDS as a particularly cunning assassination plot, whereby an AIDS-infected black man with chronic acne from too much fried chicken would covertly suppurate on the People’s Princess during a heart-warming photo opportunity at a Hospice for the Terminally Vile. Unfortunately the assassin recanted after watching the Lizard-Cruise’s performance in The War of the Worlds, and ran away to become a lightning rod fitter at the World Trade Centre. The rest you can work out for yourself.

Apart from that it’s just a load of tin-foil hat nonsense, though.

[Barbarian]

Anybody go for any of these:

http://www.wired.com/culture/lifestyle/magazine/15-11/st_best

Nasa Faked the Moon Landings

The US Government Was Behind 9/11

Princess Diana Was Murdered

The Jews Run Hollywood and Wall Street

The Scientologists Run Hollywood

Paul Is Dead

AIDS Is a Man-Made Disease

Church's Fried Chicken Sterilizes Black Men

Lizard-People Run the World

The Illuminati Run the WorldThe Port Chicago event was a nuclear blast.

[sidhe]

The Illuminati Run the World

I've got friends in the Freemasons, Rosicrucians, and O.T.O. I make a hobby of sending them links to conspiracies describing their Vast Earthshaking Power over governments/"Big Science"/The Catholic Church/Yale/Hollywood/etc. It's good for a chuckle.

[Joykins]

If you like conspiracy theories you will LOVE the Rock Creek Free Press (http://www.rockcreekfreepress.com/). The first time I saw it, there was a front-page article titled "Al Qaida Run from Vice President's Office."

[Pendaric]

David Icke is very concerned about the vaccination programme for swine flu:

http://www.davidicke.com/content/view/25191

Apparently the swine flu virus is a manufactured scare in order that the public will get mass vaccinations which will actually kill a significant percentage of the population, at the same time as injecting tiny microchips in to the blood streams of the ones who survive. Or something like that.

[DMB]

David Icke has been away with the fairies for years.

I would say that one of the most succesful conspiracy theories of all time is the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.. It is still being taught as absolute truth to millions of Arab and other Muslim children, particularly in Saudi Arabia.

[rlogan]

I do accept some of the basic tenets of the 'New World Order' stuff, in that I think it's fairly self evident that the mega rich and high ranking politicians do tend to congregate, and a lot of the stuff that happens on a global scale is as a result of those meetings. And I could believe that there is a general goal of making the rich richer and the powerful more powerful, where the elite helping each other is at least a consideration above and beyond national interest.


There is a cunning "conspiracy theory" accusation leveled at people who are pointing out the opposite: It isn't conspiracy at the root of it. They are out in the open with it for the most part.

For example, the key players in organizing the Iraq invasion and the whole foreign policy disaster called the Bush administration: Rumsfeld, Cheney, Wolfowitz, Perle, et al - was actually an organization called the Project for A New American Century (PNAC).

Its aims were published from the mid-1990's onward and pushing for overthrow of Saddam and establishment of military bases there in order to replace those in Saudi Arabia. Completely one-sided Israeli policy and a general hubris about projecting power all over the globe and doing it alone as the world hyperpower.

The defense paper describing the new model of the global cop these guys put together via control they had as officials was calling for a pearl harbor that was necessary to transform the public mind to the new paradigm.

The Paper was called Rebuilding America's Defenses: Strategies, Forces And Resources For A New Century. Perle (PNAC) got that published as chairman of the Defense Policy Board.

How ironic that they said they needed a Pearl Harbor in 2000 in that paper, and in 2001 we have 9/11.

The Bush Administration wasn't behind 9/11. But they did use it like the new pearl harbor, to try getting away with their wild theories on the New American Empire. Like invading Iraq to put military bases there, commandeer the oil, strike at an enemy of Israel and oh by the way be greeted as liberators.

People pooh-pooh the idea our president's men would engineer an invasion of Iraq to put military bases there. But these men had been openly calling for just that. For years.

Fucking Blair. Look at the Downing Street Memos. He knew Bush was fixing the intelligence around the policy. So Blair sexed it up too, by copying a graduate student paper IIRC.

The forged niger uranium document is most likely sourced in the Office of Special Plans headed up by Doug Feith - also of course a PNAC principal. This office manufactured all of the "intelligence" the policy of invasion was based on. It is important to understand Doug Feith was Rumsfeld's Chief Assistant. Rumsfeld was also running a propaganda department on his own.

Cheney openly stated we were going to take a trip on the "dark side" of dirty war tactics - Bush proudly announced he was violating FISA and would keep doing it. Declared men ineligible for Geneva or civil judicial rights - and (duh!) the court has said it is illegal.

So on the one hand the basic core is an openly professed strategy to invade Iraq and therefore cannot be conspiracy in the sense of hidden "conspiracy theory". They even announce their own crimes!

We know all the names and we know how they did it as defense secretary, vice president, OSP director, etc. In large part right out in the open. Via published policy papers.

But there were more secret criminal acts committed too. One was prosecuted - Scooter Libby (PNAC) as Cheney's Chief of staff. Covering up that a CIA agent was outed by Cheney as retaliation for her husband blowing the whistle on the forged niger uranium papers.


Because there is way too much truth in open source information, a great strategy is to just label it "conspiracy theory" when it is criticized.

[BigEvil]

When I was a teenager, I somewhat believed that "Paul is Dead," and I definitely believed that Jim Morrison was still alive.

[BigEvil]

Oh, I also believed that Mama Cass choked to death on ham sandwhich, but is that is urban legend and not conspiracy.

Additionally, and this is more urban legend, I was completely convinced that on the song Love Rollercoaster by the Ohio Players, you could hear a girl scream while she was being killed in the studio. Me and my brother would just stare in horror at each other whenever it got to that point in the song.

[Christina]

When I was a teenager, I somewhat believed that "Paul is Dead,"

I trashed a crappy plastic phonograph playing that song backwards over and over until I could hear "Paul is dead. We buried Paul". I'm pretty sure that it wasn't there : ).

[Pendaric]

Oh, I also believed that Mama Cass choked to death on ham sandwhich, but is that is urban legend and not conspiracy.

Additionally, and this is more urban legend, I was completely convinced that on the song Love Rollercoaster by the Ohio Players, you could hear a girl scream while she was being killed in the studio. Me and my brother would just stare in horror at each other whenever it got to that point in the song.

Snopes says it's false:

http://www.snopes.com/music/hidden/roller.asp

[Garrett]

Anybody go for any of these:
Princess Diana Was Murdered.
Criminally negligent homicide, maybe. She was harassed and trying to escape from paparazzi. None of your other suggestions even made a ping on my radar.

[Marduk]

"Lizard People Run The World"

clearly

[Anne]

holy fucking necromancy, batman!

anyhow...

there's a reason there are sayings about stopped clocks and blind squirrels...