Is Christianity declining in America?

[DMB]

See this news report:

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/LIVING/wayoflife/03/09/us.religion.less.christian/index.html

The rise in evangelical Christianity is contributing to the rejection of religion altogether by some Americans, said Mark Silk of Trinity College.

"In the 1990s, it really sunk in on the American public generally that there was a long-lasting 'religious right' connected to a political party, and that turned a lot of people the other way," he said of the link between the Republican Party and groups such as the Moral Majority and Focus on the Family...

...In the survey, one in five Americans said they have no religious identity or did not answer the question, and more than one in four said they do not expect to have a religious funeral.

[Mung Dynasty]

That's getting up there for percentage. I wonder how the questions were phrased.

[Ray Moscow]

William Donohue, president of the Catholic League said he thinks a radical shift towards individualism over the last quarter-century has a lot to do it.

"The three most dreaded words are thou shalt not," he told Lou Dobbs. "Notice they are not atheists -- they are saying I don't want to be told what to do with my life."

I thought that the three most dreaded words were "priest screwing kids".

[Christina]

I think that the Republicans have (perhaps unintentionally) combined religion, conservatism and a sneering attitude toward the "educated elite" into a platform and in many eyes that simply translates to "ignorant intolerance". It may garner votes in their district but overall I think it scares most people to feel like they're heading toward a theocracy of the not-very-bright.

I love when religious people criticize 'liberal college professors who indoctrinate our children" while at the same time sneering about higher education as if there is no connection there.

[lpetrich]

One does have to be careful of the vagaries of polling and survey questions, but there is evidence of steady declines.

I'd researched a few years back about Catholic Nuns becoming "None": Dwindling and Aging (http://www.freeratio.org/showthread.php?t=134971). The average age of US Catholic nuns is now about 70, and the nun population has dropped by a factor of 2.5 since the 1960's. Catholic schools used to hire lots of nuns; nowadays they hire laypeople and non-Catholics.

Why the Gods are Not Winning (http://richarddawkins.net/article,956,Why-the-Gods-Are-Not-Winning,Edge-Gregory-Paul-amp-Phil-Zuckerman), by Edge, Gregory Paul, and Phil Zuckerman, takes a longer view, but points to a slow but steady decline over the years. I recall some studies that show generational differences, with younger generations of Americans being less religious than older ones -- and with each generation keeping its amount of religiosity as it ages.

Right next door in Canada, Churches come tumbling down (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20071222.wcoessay1222/BNStory/specialComment/home/?pageRequested=all), with the number of people who professed no religion increasing dramatically:
1961 - 1%
1971 - 4%
2001 - 16%
with 35% in British Columbia.

Many people there still have some religious affiliation, but it is often pro forma, with religious activity largely being among older people.

A possible reason? Women having more opportunities, so they could do more than be housewives and Sunday-school teachers and church-picnic organizers -- and nuns. PZ Myers noted this factor in his report on this work, O Canada! O Women! (http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/01/o_canada_o_women.php), and he suggested pointing out some female "New Atheist" activists.

And scientists? Despite all the numerous claims of scientific research "finding God" over the decades, the actual beliefs of scientists are a different story. Leading Scientists Still Reject God (http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/sci_relig.htm) reports on a study that found:

Belief in Personal God | 1914 | 1933 | 1998
Personal belief | 27.7 | 15 | 7.0
Personal disbelief | 52.7 | 68 | 72.2
Doubt or agnosticism | 20.9 | 17 | 20.8
Belief in Immortality | 1914 | 1933 | 1998
Personal belief | 35.2 | 18 | 7.9
Personal disbelief | 25.4 | 53 | 68.7
Doubt or agnosticism | 43.7 | 29 | 23.3

Figures are percentages. ("Personal disbelief" adjusted down from 76.7 to 68.7 to add up more reasonably)

Source: Edward J. Larson and Larry Witham: "Leading Scientists Still Reject God." Nature, 23 July 1998; v. 394, p. 313.

[DMB]

I am encouraged to hope that America is at last following the path of western Europe and the rest of the developed world. American religiosity was always a bit puzzling through the last half of the 20th century.

[Ray Moscow]

I am encouraged to hope that America is at last following the path of western Europe and the rest of the developed world. American religiosity was always a bit puzzling through the last half of the 20th century.

Unfortunately religion, woo and extremism tend to flair up during times of crisis, so I expect a rebound of all three.

[DMB]

Unfortunately religion, woo and extremism tend to flair up during times of crisis, so I expect a rebound of all three.

You mean any port in a storm?

[Ray Moscow]

Fear is largely what drives people into these things, and there's plenty to stoke that fear coming up.

[wordy]

I am a pessimist. Many of these people get their living out of being evangelical so see it as a biz. What does a Biz or Big Biz do when the customer fails to buy their product.

They regroup, find other products. Adapt to the market, find new ways of persuading new suckers to get fooled. Bling bling like high tech sound and videos and smoke machines and Hard rock music and Hip Hop lyrics and Conspiracy myths about Materialism and Science Establishment being the Great Evil Satan and so on.

They start cooperate with Islamistic Muslims to make all criticism of faith into a Hate Crime and they start their own gated communities and isolate themselves and get self sufficient not needing anything from outside? just guessing but these people don't give up, they defend their faith until they die. They invent new things that are still as much fundy as the old faith. Christianity may decline but what comes next is worse.

[Moriah Conquering Wind]

William Donohue, president of the Catholic League said he thinks a radical shift towards individualism over the last quarter-century has a lot to do it.

"The three most dreaded words are thou shalt not," he told Lou Dobbs. "Notice they are not atheists -- they are saying I don't want to be told what to do with my life."

Did we miss something here? Did we not get some all-important Life Memo stating that wanting to be told what to do with one's life constituted "the right, only, and true way to be" or at the very least, some type of virtue to be aspired toward?

Serious question here -- who the fuck would come up with the notion that "being told what to do with your life" constituted something admirable or desirable AT ALL let alone something all should aspire to or should be/become "by default" ... who in their right minds would NOT immediately hold such a facile notion suspect for smacking so hard of agenda?

[Ray Moscow]

As usual, religious extremists get morality backwards. To them, thinking things through for oneself is bad, while accepting what authority figures tell you is good.

[Moriah Conquering Wind]

Ray, exactly. But unfortunately this backasswards meme does not only flourish in religious camps. A great majority of ordinary secular society runs on this same assumption, sad to say.

[Hex]

As usual, religious extremists get morality backwards. To them, thinking things through for oneself is bad, while accepting what authority figures tell you is good.

Well, if all knowledge and goodness comes from a central figure in the supernatural realm, then why not the same in the material one?

And besides, all that thinking for yourself? It's too hard ... and you might not get the same answer as everyone else, and that'd be bad, right? :bang:

[Moriah Conquering Wind]

Yeah and heaven forbid your answer(s) might be ... SUPERIOR!!!

And cause you to see through their SHIT!!!

[Garnet]

It's hard for me to believe that Christianity is declining in America when even in Michigan I can hardly go a single day without hearing or reading some meme from the religious right.

[lpetrich]

It's hard for me to believe that Christianity is declining in America when even in Michigan I can hardly go a single day without hearing or reading some meme from the religious right.
True, it may seem like that, but what you are seeing are those who are the loudest about their beliefs. And fundies are often very loud. The overall numbers tell a different story, however.

One does not see the more liberal sort of Christians being very loud about their beliefs. How many people have been yelling "Galileo was right! The Bible tells us how to go to Heaven, not how the heavens go!" or "Worshipping the Bible is idolatry!" or "Calling Jesus the literal Son of God is a pagan absurdity!"?

Over the last 3 decades or so, the middle-of-the-road denominations have been fraying at both ends. On one end is the people who join fundie and sort-of-fundie churches. On the other end is the people who became New Agers and neopagans and agnostics and atheists and people indifferent to religion.

Also, the post-WWII social consensus of "Don't ask, don't tell" about religion has been breaking down. It had not been good for atheist visibility, but one was safe as long as one hid one's beliefs. The fundies, of course, have been loudly violating it for some time.

[sohy]

I recently read somewhere that evangelical Xianity was on the rise due to the economic crisis. I don't think that religion or magical thinking is on the decline. I even read in a recent Humanist newsletter that about 30% of Americans believe in astrology. For dog's sake, if people believe something that stupid, what makes anyone think religion will die out?

I do think that more people are cherry picking religious beliefs, frequently making up their own versions of spirituality. I think that's a good thing. At least individualized religion lacks authoritarian dogma and tends to promote tolerance.

One good thing that is happening in America is that secular people are becoming more outspoken and are organizing more into groups. At least we don't feel as if we have to hide anymore. Not that I've ever been shy about saying what I believe.

[wordy]

Yes Christian Churches is declining in so far that the children of the members tend to not do as their parents did. They drop out. But as Ipetrich wrote they could either go to competing Christian Churches who has structured themselves in a more attractive way or they can drop out to something else.

So a lot of Churches looses so many people and money they have to sell the property and go together with other denominations that are not too alien to them.

This has happen in Sweden too. But at same time the interest for finding meaning in life has increased and it is maybe soaked uo by all this company consults for health and management courses and such. So faith is only regrouping into Health biz. The amount of woo woo is not going down. There are most people involved in "Health" now than ever and that is as much faith as the old Churches had only they pretend it is evidence based but they never show the studies it is supposed to be based on.

It is a billion worth industry so that one is rising.

Even such odd thing as "Divining" or "Fortune telling" is a paid job that the authorities pay those who are unemployed to do a course and start their own biz to make a living.

That shows that faith is only regrouping adjusting to the changing market demands of novelty. Same old woo woo in a new package.

[ck1]

I recently read somewhere that evangelical Xianity was on the rise due to the economic crisis. I don't think that religion or magical thinking is on the decline. I even read in a recent Humanist newsletter that about 30% of Americans believe in astrology. For dog's sake, if people believe something that stupid, what makes anyone think religion will die out?

I do think that more people are cherry picking religious beliefs, frequently making up their own versions of spirituality. I think that's a good thing. At least individualized religion lacks authoritarian dogma and tends to promote tolerance.

One good thing that is happening in America is that secular people are becoming more outspoken and are organizing more into groups. At least we don't feel as if we have to hide anymore. Not that I've ever been shy about saying what I believe.

I would have guessed that more than 30% of Americans believe in astrology.

It is true that more people are cherry-picking religious beliefs, and this accounts in part for the decline in mainline denominations. (And the high rate of contraceptive use among Catholics who regularly attend services.) It also accounts for the huge increase in unaffiliated, nondenominational churches, and this includes most of those megachurches. Those churches are thriving. Their services are uplifting, lite, and entertaining. And they act as community centers with lots of activities.

Religious belief is not going away any time soon, just becoming more personalized. Some of the more vocal creationists (who shall remain nameless) claim to be "nonreligious" or to have nothing to do with churches of any kind, while proclaiming the absolute truth of their own bible-based beliefs.

Secular people are organizing, but it is interesting that some of those groups use a church-like model. There is a group of humanists in my area that meets on Sunday mornings in a church like meeting center, has Sunday school for the kids, and performs ceremonies for marriages and funerals.

[Hex]

That shows that faith is only regrouping adjusting to the changing market demands of novelty. Same old woo woo in a new package.

Which is much like what happened in the late 1970's/early 1980's in the US. The counter-cultural protests of the 1960's/early 1970's pulled people away from the versions of religion seen as the 'establishment', as well as introducing many other cultural beliefs, philosophies and religions. More people were dissatisfied and found they had other acceptable choices. During the 1970's we see the cults that have 'establishment' aspects, like the Hare Krishnas and the Unification Church (the 'Moonies'), coming to more power, since they 'lead' people but in a different direction than the established western religions. But even those cults lose membership as people figure out in the late 1970's/early 1980's that there are more personal and customizable religions, and that, with the breakdown of the social power-base of the established religions, that it's okay to even not have religion. And, of course, this aspect of losing members causes the religions' remaining adherents to become more outspoken/active as they react to what they see as negative change.

I think it's important to see this as a slow and gradual change. During the mid-1800's there were many who predicted that with the prevalence of science in society, religion would decline and fade away, some even predicted that it would be gone before 1900. This is about the same time that Spiritualism starts up, so it shows that science, at that time, wasn't driving away religions.

Personally, I think that we're heading toward that aspect of losing religions, at least many of the big 'established' religions. Since many religions are dogmatic in appealing to large groups of people in a world of increasing individualism, they're losing memberships. Here in Buffalo you can't drive for more than a couple of minutes in any direction in any part of the city without seeing a church. But I'm seeing lots of them that are empty, derelict, or being changed into day-care or community centers. I see the same of Masonic Temples and other social organizations, if that helps to show the individualism of the society.

But, this change also shows that there is something to supernatural beliefs over-all. The bulk of people don't stop cold-turkey. There are plenty of 'searchers' out there, flitting from religion to religion, trying to find the one that 'fits'. And I wonder sometimes, even about myself, what is it that is so compelling about those views in the supernatural that they persist in our modern world? :dunno:

[Hex]

Secular people are organizing, but it is interesting that some of those groups use a church-like model. There is a group of humanists in my area that meets on Sunday mornings in a church like meeting center, has Sunday school for the kids, and performs ceremonies for marriages and funerals.

The Center For Inquiry (http://www.centerforinquiry.net/) is headquartered out here and they've been building family-oriented activities and meetings, places to discuss topics or literature, for a while they had a game night, they have movies and really interesting speakers (some might be called motivational?), and they'll do marriages, naming-ceremonies for babies, hospice and death-bed access (I can't say that it's counseling in the traditional sense of performing last rites or the like, but they can be there for you), as well as funerals.

In looking at the functionality of the group in terms of what it does for the people, yeah, it does a lot of what a religion does. Just without a highly dogmatic angle (unless you look at the aspects of free-speech, equal-rights, and the protection of scientists and the discipline of science), or any invisible sky-daddy looking over your shoulder to spank you later.

[wordy]

ck1, don't get me wrong now but is it not typical for us atheists that we don't want to be evangelistic so you chose to not say how we can find that church like secular group.

I guess it is Church of Freethought in Texas.

[DMB]

Wordy, this place (http://www.ethicalsoc.org.uk/)might meet your needs. But you'd have to move to London.

[wordy]

Yes sort of but in practice it doesn't seem to work.

Ideally that is what they hope but there is no good statistical evidence that it is successful.

I looked for such Ethical Groups since about 1986 and renewed around 1997 when I had internet. As far as I know there is no such group with young people. Only guys my age.

It fails to be attractive. So they do something very wrong.

[Redshirt]

Perhaps religion might be declining a bit in the US, but it is still by far the most religious nation compared to other western countries. From a 1999-2000 comparison based on the World Values Survey (http://www.worldvaluessurvey.org/):

Question: "How important is God in your life?"

Importance rating (%)|USA|Canada|UK|France|
Not at all important|4|11|21|30
2|2|3|10|6
3|2|4|9|8
4|2|3|8|6
5|4|7|10|16
6|4|6|8|8
7|6|9|8|7
8|9|12|7|7
9|10|8|5|4
Very important|59|37|14|8