Constructive advice, please

[DMB]

I have been friends for about 30 years with a Texan fundie. She is a thoroughly nice person, despite belonging to a megachurch and espousing the usual SB weird beliefs. I have detected increasing religiosity over the years and that bothers me slightly. She knows we are Humanists and worries that we shall end up in hell. She used to send us batches of proselytising material, but that stopped a few years back.

Yesterday we got a parcel of three books from her. One was a perfectly ordinary secular book that my husband will probably enjoy reading. The other two are supposedly about something else but are clearly full of the fundie message. I imagine she supposes that if we learn how important Jesus is in someone else's life, we shall see the light.

I don't like to think that she is spending her hard-earned money sending us this junk. Over the years, I, and more particularly my husband, have tried to get across to her that we do not think there is a god, do think that Jesus is a dead Jew of little interest to us and feel pretty sure that there is no afterlife, with or without hell. Clearly, we haven't managed it. How should we try to convince her once and for all?

I did wonder whether to send her this book (http://www.amazon.com/Good-Without-God-Billion-Nonreligious/dp/0061670111/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1264766425&sr=8-1).

For various reasons it doesn't appeal greatly to me, but he is a "Chaplain", which might be reassuring for her.

I actually like this one (http://www.amazon.com/Humanism-Introduction-Jim-Herrick/dp/1591022398/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1264767376&sr=1-1) myself.

Any ideas on either of these or on how to get the message across?

[Deadlokd]

Sorry, I have no decent advice. I lack diplomacy when it comes to religion. That may be a reason why I have no friends.

[Faerie]

Be honest imo. Thank her for the gifts and the fact that she has thought of you and that she cares, then gently tell her that it bothers you that she spends the money on these gifts, suggest that it would please you more if she donated that money to a worthy cause of her choice. Fundie's like charity, and she'll possibly feel better that you care about a cause other than yourself.

I wouldnt throw books back at her, however well intentioned, she might take it wrong, rather ask her to which charity you can donate on her behalf? Something in that line?

[Valheru]

Send her a toaster. She won't get the reference, but at least you won't be guilty of sending useless shit like she does.

[DMB]

Be honest imo. Thank her for the gifts and the fact that she has thought of you and that she cares, then gently tell her that it bothers you that she spends the money on these gifts, suggest that it would please you more if she donated that money to a worthy cause of her choice. Fundie's like charity, and she'll possibly feel better that you care about a cause other than yourself.

I wouldnt throw books back at her, however well intentioned, she might take it wrong, rather ask her to which charity you can donate on her behalf? Something in that line?

That's a brilliant idea, Faerie, so long as it's not a bible-bashing one! Red Cross or UNICEF for Haiti would be good.

[Flick Flack Fluck]

Does it have to be a book? Can you not just tell her again that you are perfectly happy to have a chat about your beliefs but please don't waste money on books of a religious nature because you have seen it all before, heard it all before and can see and hear it all again for free on the internet if you have the urge.

A book for a book is getting a wee bit close to Old Testament :D

[Eudaimonist]

clearly full of the fuare ndie message.

The what message? What is "fuare ndie"? Is this a typo? :confused:


eudaimonia,

Mark

[DMB]

As you may imagine, we have tried in many ways to get her attention on this. We aren't just passive Humanists; we are Humanist activists at the international level. But somehow she thinks someone wittering on about Jesus will convert us. I really don't want to hurt her by attacking her beliefs. That's why I wondered about those two books in particular, because they don't attack religion but do explain Humanism as a positive way of thinking.

For her, God is there all the time taking care of her and answering her prayers, except the ones he doesn't answer. She is just like that woman who was pulled from the rubble last week in Haiti incanting "thank you, Jesus" all the time, even though her teenage duaghter had died next to her shortly before. If she prays to God to avoid injury but is injured anyway, she keeps on praying. If it then turns out that the injury is not the worst possible, it is because God has answered her prayer.

[Valheru]

Print out Datasandwich's posts, bind it and send them to her. She'll get the message.

[DMB]

clearly full of the fuare ndie message.

The what message? What is "fuare ndie"? Is this a typo? :confused:


eudaimonia,

Mark

Sorry, Mark, yes. I have corrected it now. I am typing lying down in bed because of being unable to walk. The bedclothes sometimes type thngs for me or suddenly move the cursor, and I don't always realise where my typing has gone. Obviously, I am stricken in this way because I don't pray enough.

[Ray Moscow]

TBH, I think it's hopeless. She will either respect you, or she won't.

She will never give up on winning you for Jesus, and she won't understand humanism.

[sohy]

I don't know if this would be appropriate but let me share what I once told my agnostic neighbor's fundy daughter. The daughter knows I'm an atheist so it was kind of weird that she vented to me, but for some reason people seem comfortable telling all their problems to nurses. :D

Delores, the daughter, told me that she was very worried about mom going to hell. I told her that although I'm quite sure that no gods exist, if there was one, there was absolutely no way he would send her wonderful, kind decent mother to be tortured for all eternity. She seemed a little bit relieved and told me that she hoped I was right. As far as I know, she stopped pestering her mother, who now lives in an assisted living home. I haven't thought of asking her if Delores has backed off, but maybe I will the next time I visit.

If you feel comfortable, perhaps you could express something along similar lines, explaining to her in your next correspondence, that you simply have a problem with a god that would judge his children so harshly for their simple inability to believe the claims in the Bible. Maybe that will help her accept your disinterest in further efforts on her part to convert you.

[munnki]

My honest advice - you can't change her but you are a threat to her worldview. Attempts to convert her or change her would probably fall on deaf ears. I've always associated missonary types as reflecting a deep internal insecurity in their own beliefs - this plays out as a need to convert others and gain 'safety in numbers'. This is not what I believe you are experiencing - but it may well be what she is experiencing. Be yourselves and show contentment in your own worldview - this may remain a threat to them but that in itself is a positive form of attempted conversion.

I read fundamentalism as the last stages of a sickness - the death throes of what religion represents. It's true that it does kill some of those who go down its path. The real death, I mean - the death of reason and enjoyment - the death of the pleasure of truth - the truth that is the confession of the lack of answers to the big questions.

Many in my family are religious in this way. I simply answer honestly if asked questions about my beliefs with them and try not to engage strongly in argumentation over truth. They will either come to it if they wish - or not.

I hope that helps - it is my honest experience.

[Notta]

TBH, I think it's hopeless. She will either respect you, or she won't.

She will never give up on winning you for Jesus, and she won't understand humanism.That would be my advice, too. Thank her, donate the books to a library, and tell her that you've reciprocated her kindness by donating to the victims in Haiti. But she'll never cease trying to convert you -- fundies believe to the bottom of their hearts that if you'll just LISTEN to them, you'll become a believer, too.

[Ray Moscow]

That, and the "fact" that you're going to hell will continue to drive her crazy.

[lpetrich]

I suggest inviting her to read this document:

Ebon Musings: Introduction to the Atheism Pages (http://ebonmusings.org/atheism/intro.html)

Ebonmuse doesn't seem nasty or angry about his atheism, so that may be a good introduction.

[Alethias]

I have been friends for about 30 years with a Texan fundie. She is a thoroughly nice person, despite belonging to a megachurch and espousing the usual SB weird beliefs. I have detected increasing religiosity over the years and that bothers me slightly. She knows we are Humanists and worries that we shall end up in hell. She used to send us batches of proselytising material, but that stopped a few years back.

Yesterday we got a parcel of three books from her. One was a perfectly ordinary secular book that my husband will probably enjoy reading. The other two are supposedly about something else but are clearly full of the fundie message. I imagine she supposes that if we learn how important Jesus is in someone else's life, we shall see the light.

I don't like to think that she is spending her hard-earned money sending us this junk. Over the years, I, and more particularly my husband, have tried to get across to her that we do not think there is a god, do think that Jesus is a dead Jew of little interest to us and feel pretty sure that there is no afterlife, with or without hell. Clearly, we haven't managed it. How should we try to convince her once and for all?

I did wonder whether to send her this book (http://www.amazon.com/Good-Without-God-Billion-Nonreligious/dp/0061670111/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1264766425&sr=8-1).

For various reasons it doesn't appeal greatly to me, but he is a "Chaplain", which might be reassuring for her.

I actually like this one (http://www.amazon.com/Humanism-Introduction-Jim-Herrick/dp/1591022398/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1264767376&sr=1-1) myself.

Any ideas on either of these or on how to get the message across?The one by Greg Epstein is excellent, and has been used by people in a similar fashion to how you are contemplating using it. Since she feels free to send you books, you have no good reason not to reciprocate.

Her megachurch pastor probably preached a sermon that made her feel guilty about not reaching out to her unsaved friends(Translation: you and your husband. She probably doesn't know very many unsaved people, lawl), so she sent you the packet. Feel free to respond in kind. Tell her that you want to help her have a greater understanding of your beliefs so she can present her message all the better. If she's like many, that will tempt her to take the bait and actually read the books.

I haven't read the 2nd one you linked, so I have no idea if it will help or not, sorry.

[DMB]

Thanks for the suggestions, guys. I have never wanted to try to convert her to atheism or Humanism. My husband did try once to engage her on the subject of evolution, but that was useless. I even steer clear of issues like abortion or gay rights. But the restraint has all been one-sided.

She has, however, made at least one sacrifice on our behalf. In 2008 we spent a long weekend with her and her husband. They invited us to accompany them to the church and stay to have lunch there. Once upon a time I would have gone for the anthropological interest, but I'm now at an age where I hear Time's Winged Chariot and simply don't want to waste time on such rubbish. We turned down their kind offer and suggested that they go as usual and we meet them later. But they decided to stay with us for a godfree Sunday instead.

[Alethias]

My assumption is that if she reads Greg Epstein's book that it won't even come close to converting her, but that it may help make her more willing to see your side of things. If so, that is a good thing. She obviously cares if she was willing to give up church to spend time with you, so I'm thinking it wouldn't be a fruitless gesture from that respect.

[Daydream]

Tell her that the likelihood of you ever believing in god is the same as the likelihood of her converting to Islam. Tell her you love her as she is and would never want to change her and you hope she feels the same way about you.

[Haswell]

She probably genuinely worries for your soul. Any self respecting christian would anyway. You might try and get to the bottom of why her religiosity seems on the increase. it may be a prelude to complete delusion or it may be a definitive act as she clings onto her beliefs in the face of overwhelming questions.

See elsewhere on my experiences with Texas fundies.

Why it should be considered impertinent to tell someone you don't appreciate what they are sending you, either literally or figuratively, is beyond me. it is a supreme arrogance that they think they can 'fix' what isn't broken. Even though she is a friend, you owe it to a balanced friendship to make it plain what your views are and that you do not appreciate being hectored and annoyed by unsolicited rubbish.

She sounds mentally ill. Get her some help before she sells the farm.

[DMB]

In the end we both sent her separate long emails trying to explain what our beliefs were. I used the dreaded word "atheist", even though in Texas one might as well say "child murderer".

[Notta]

I actually broke into a sweat when I first admitted in public that I was an atheist. The US is very weird that way. Baby eaters get more respect -- because they can repent, become 'saved', and go to heaven.

[veritas]

Could someone please inform me as to the meaning of fundie? Also, I am curious as to what is meant by the abbreviation SB in the original post.

[DMB]

Fundie is short for fundamentalist/ism. See Fundamentalism.

SB is an abbreviation of Southern Baptist. See Southern Baptist Convention.

[Jobar]

SB- Southern Baptist. Surprised you didn't guess that one.

Fundie- from Fundamentalist, which word comes from the 1910-1915 set of essays The Fundamentals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fundamentals)-

The Fundamentals or The Fundamentals: A Testimony To The Truth edited by A. C. Dixon and later by Reuben Archer Torrey is a set of 90 essays in 12 volumes published from 1910 to 1915 by the Bible Institute of Los Angeles. They were designed to affirm orthodox Protestant beliefs and defend against ideas deemed inimical to them. They are widely considered to be the foundation of the modern Fundamentalist movement.

[veritas]

One of the things that I like to do with my atheist friends is to propose a "book swap." That is I will read one of their books on atheism if they will read one of mine on Christian apologetics. Now, I will warn you (but you probably know this better than I do) that some Christian apologetic books are absolute crap. See some which are quoted in Dawkins', "the God Delusion." If that is the case, then I would promptly let them know that you did not find the book convincing enough to finish. This idea is based on the fact that we should allow ourselves to be motivated by the best possible arguments and make decisions based upon the evidence that is most convincing. Most Christians do not think this way, but it sounds as if your friends might. Just an idea, but it requires open mindedness on both sides. The idea that Faerie had is also excellent. Caring for those who are suffering from natural disaster or social injustice is something that both theists and atheists can agree upon. Hope you get better soon.

[Matty]

I suggest inviting her to read this document:

Ebon Musings: Introduction to the Atheism Pages (http://ebonmusings.org/atheism/intro.html)

Ebonmuse doesn't seem nasty or angry about his atheism, so that may be a good introduction.

go straight to the religion 101 exam. That shit is gold.

ETA. link
http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/guestessays/religion101.html

[Jobar]

What we generally mean by "fundie" is someone who holds to an extremely conservative, even reactionary, form of religion. Sometimes you might see reference to 'Muslim fundies' or 'Jewish fundies', though that's not very common. Usually it means a Protestant Christian who considers all of us skeptics damned.

If someone holds to their scriptures literally, feels they are inerrant and unquestionable, and thinks that most of the people who aren't in their own particular denomination are probably going to hell, then most likely they qualify as a fundie.

For a parody of fundamentalists, check out the Landover Baptist Church (http://www.landoverbaptist.org/) website!

[Pandora]

Have you considered simply telling her that you find it offensive? It has worked well for me with my husband's fundie family. I've simply told them that while I like them all very much, I find it incredibly offensive that they insist upon discussing religion with me and trying to educate me on the topic. I told them that I'm actually quite well versed int he basics of a number of religions, and have actively chosen none of the above. It has definitely quieted their attempts to convert me... though I suspect I've become the topic of many a family discussion ;).

[Jobar]

One of the things that I like to do with my atheist friends is to propose a "book swap." That is I will read one of their books on atheism if they will read one of mine on Christian apologetics. Now, I will warn you (but you probably know this better than I do) that some Christian apologetic books are absolute crap. See some which are quoted in Dawkins', "the God Delusion." If that is the case, then I would promptly let them know that you did not find the book convincing enough to finish. This idea is based on the fact that we should allow ourselves to be motivated by the best possible arguments and make decisions based upon the evidence that is most convincing. Most Christians do not think this way, but it sounds as if your friends might. Just an idea, but it requires open mindedness on both sides. The idea that Faerie had is also excellent. Caring for those who are suffering from natural disaster or social injustice is something that both theists and atheists can agree upon. Hope you get better soon.

Cory, while I may want to read some of your apologetica purely from interest, I won't hold out much hope that I, or the other skeptics here, will find much that's really new to me. Many of us have at least a passing familiarity with such names as Spong, Tillich, Kung, and Bultmann; some of us (though not me, I freely confess!) have read in considerable depth on the subject.

I've been meaning to direct you to a forum where you'll find much more scholarly topics than those we usually discuss here; the Biblical Criticism and History forum (http://www.freeratio.org/forumdisplay.php?f=60) on the FreeRatio discussion board, which used to be Internet Infidels. That's where you'll find the serious scholars; though I seldom go there myself, and I don't really care for the way in which that board is run, I freely admit that they have the best experts!

[Daydream]

go straight to the religion 101 exam. That shit is gold.

ETA. link
http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/guestessays/religion101.html

Ha ha ha ha!! That exam is hilarious and brilliant! :D

[veritas]

One of the things that I like to do with my atheist friends is to propose a "book swap." That is I will read one of their books on atheism if they will read one of mine on Christian apologetics. Now, I will warn you (but you probably know this better than I do) that some Christian apologetic books are absolute crap. See some which are quoted in Dawkins', "the God Delusion." If that is the case, then I would promptly let them know that you did not find the book convincing enough to finish. This idea is based on the fact that we should allow ourselves to be motivated by the best possible arguments and make decisions based upon the evidence that is most convincing. Most Christians do not think this way, but it sounds as if your friends might. Just an idea, but it requires open mindedness on both sides. The idea that Faerie had is also excellent. Caring for those who are suffering from natural disaster or social injustice is something that both theists and atheists can agree upon. Hope you get better soon.

Cory, while I may want to read some of your apologetica purely from interest, I won't hold out much hope that I, or the other skeptics here, will find much that's really new to me. Many of us have at least a passing familiarity with such names as Spong, Tillich, Kung, and Bultmann; some of us (though not me, I freely confess!) have read in considerable depth on the subject.

I've been meaning to direct you to a forum where you'll find much more scholarly topics than those we usually discuss here; the Biblical Criticism and History forum (http://www.freeratio.org/forumdisplay.php?f=60) on the FreeRatio discussion board, which used to be Internet Infidels. That's where you'll find the serious scholars; though I seldom go there myself, and I don't really care for the way in which that board is run, I freely admit that they have the best experts!

I freely admit that many of the arguments that I have read on this board show excellent understanding of many apologetic arguments. I was not trying to imply otherwise I like the book swap idea just because it promotes the idea that information should inform our decisions.

[Yahzi]

First, I read their book. Then, I always send them "Atheism: the case against God" by George Smith, and then I tell them, "I'll read your next book after you've read mine."

They never send me anymore after that.

[alien billie]

Sorry, Mark, yes. I have corrected it now. I am typing lying down in bed because of being unable to walk. The bedclothes sometimes type thngs for me or suddenly move the cursor, and I don't always realise where my typing has gone. Obviously, I am stricken in this way because I don't pray enough.

Damn straight woman, now get down on your knees and PRAY!

Oh, wait, God's really got you coming and going, hasn't he?

[DMB]

Sorry, Mark, yes. I have corrected it now. I am typing lying down in bed because of being unable to walk. The bedclothes sometimes type thngs for me or suddenly move the cursor, and I don't always realise where my typing has gone. Obviously, I am stricken in this way because I don't pray enough.

Damn straight woman, now get down on your knees and PRAY!

Oh, wait, God's really got you coming and going, hasn't he?

He has! I can't even get down on my knees. :D

[Ray Moscow]

The LORD understands your limitations (He created them, remember?) but He reminds you of the importance of tithing if you are serious about receiving healing.

My church's Paypal account stands ready.

[Faerie]

Sorry, Mark, yes. I have corrected it now. I am typing lying down in bed because of being unable to walk. The bedclothes sometimes type thngs for me or suddenly move the cursor, and I don't always realise where my typing has gone. Obviously, I am stricken in this way because I don't pray enough.

Damn straight woman, now get down on your knees and PRAY!

Oh, wait, God's really got you coming and going, hasn't he?

He has! I can't even get down on my knees. :D


Your lack of faith appals me!