View Full Version : No prayer in City Council meetings?
Notta
05 Feb 2010, 06:22 PM
Of all places, a group of atheists in FLORIDA, heart of the Bible belt, are petitioning against holding prayers at city government meetings! Those heartless bastards!
What's next? Removing "Under God" from the Pledge of Allegiance? I hope so!
Atheists of Florida says the invocation at the beginning of Tampa City Council meetings discriminates against their beliefs. They want the council to either do away with the prayer, or change it to a moment of silence.
The appearance before the council comes a few weeks after the group sent a letter to city leaders making the same request.
"When it comes to respecting people's rights, there can not be any compromise," said Rob Curry, president of Atheists of Florida.
From here. (http://www.abcactionnews.com/content/news/local/hillsborough/west/tampa/story/Atheist-group-wants-prayer-out-at-City-Council/_hmHoO-9NUeM5QsQ-Od8pg.cspx)
There's an ongoing campaign on this issue with reapect to local councils in Britain.
Notta
05 Feb 2010, 06:27 PM
It's big news that it's happening in Florida. That state is full of fundamentalist Christians.
Jobar
05 Feb 2010, 06:43 PM
That story made CNN. At least the city won't be able to just ignore them, anyway.
There's an ongoing campaign on this issue with reapect to local councils in Britain.
http://www.parliament.uk/about/how/business/prayers.cfm
NSS campaign:
http://www.secularism.org.uk/council-prayers.html
All you need for the House of Commons is an atheist Speaker who will refuse to have a chaplain. This has happened with various mayors already. And we need to chuck the bishops out of the Lords.
And we need to chuck the bishops out of the Lords.
I think that would be a hard sell to the public at the moment.
And we need to chuck the bishops out of the Lords.
I think that would be a hard sell to the public at the moment.
?????
Notta
05 Feb 2010, 07:08 PM
DMB, do you know what courts do (at least here in the US), if you refuse to swear an oath on a Bible in a court of law? I don't, and I was wondering.
And we need to chuck the bishops out of the Lords.
I think that would be a hard sell to the public at the moment.
?????
Any group of politicians trying it will face the wrath of the daily mail, accusations of political correctness gone mad, talk of destroying the traditional foundations of the union, ect...
It should still be done though, if that battle were won it really could change the way things run.
Next on my list would be stopping the head of state also being the head of the church .
Haswell
05 Feb 2010, 07:49 PM
I don't think the UK public would give a flying flick flack fluck if they sacked the Lord's Spiritual. I'm not so sure the Temporal ones would be sitting comfortably either.
Is it not the case that you can swear on anything given the fact you may have a total disregard for the bible and notion of God?
Notta
05 Feb 2010, 07:51 PM
Is it not the case that you can swear on anything given the fact you may have a total disregard for the bible and notion of God?I don't know. That's why I asked.
Worldtraveller
05 Feb 2010, 07:57 PM
You are allowed to 'affirm' instead of swearing on a bible. Depending on where you are, the judge and bailiff may look at you funny, and possibly have no clue what you are on about. Ronin was a police officer who had several good posts about this topic.
Jobar
05 Feb 2010, 08:08 PM
One of those threads Lane mentioned- Swearing in as a witness (http://www.freeratio.org/thearchives/showthread.php?t=139812)
Notta
05 Feb 2010, 08:11 PM
That was great!
BioBeing
05 Feb 2010, 08:14 PM
I've only been to court once in the US (other than several trips to traffic court :innocent:), and was kind of worried about having to swear on a bible. Turns out the Judge did a "mass affirmation" with no mention of gods or bibles. I was in juevenile court, with my then 4 yo son giving testimony against a 14 yo car jacker... But yeah, I hear you can ask to "affirm" instead of "swear".
Jobar
05 Feb 2010, 08:29 PM
The way I have usually heard it done is, you raise your right hand, and are asked to swear or affirm that you will tell the truth. And that's in Georgia. Can't recall ever seeing a Bible enter into the matter.
They'd have to stand over me with threats of something or other and still I wouldn't swear on the Good Book. This affirm thing is strange though.
What are you asked to affirm?
OH I get it ... it's your word against the Bible's. WHAT a farce.
Jobar
05 Feb 2010, 10:34 PM
More that you're supposed to swear on what you hold holy. I wonder if Muslims ever do that with the Qu'ran?
David B
05 Feb 2010, 11:00 PM
Hey, isn't swearing on the Bible anti biblical?
There again, public prayers are anti biblical IIRC.
I suppose biblical inerrantists have never been much influenced by what the bible actually says.
David
For a very long time English law has allowed you to affirm rather than swear. See Affirmation in law.
The only times I have had to give evidence in court I have affirmed.
Haswell
06 Feb 2010, 09:17 AM
If they allowed this in council meetings they would be whipping out prayer mats all over the national council chambers and that would be unacceptable. Anyone who is fighting to have prayers instated there is of course only referring to the Christian religion.
sohy
06 Feb 2010, 01:02 PM
I've only been to court once in the US (other than several trips to traffic court :innocent:), and was kind of worried about having to swear on a bible. Turns out the Judge did a "mass affirmation" with no mention of gods or bibles. I was in juevenile court, with my then 4 yo son giving testimony against a 14 yo car jacker... But yeah, I hear you can ask to "affirm" instead of "swear".
The last time I had jury duty they did that, but they did include god somewhere in the swearing in process. I sat silently and never opened my mouth. Nobody noticed. It's really pretty silly to swear people in imo. Why not just tell people that they can prosecuted if they don't tell the truth or don't perform their jury duties honestly? I guess that would be too modern and grown up.
Mediancat
06 Feb 2010, 01:23 PM
You are allowed to 'affirm' instead of swearing on a bible. Depending on where you are, the judge and bailiff may look at you funny, and possibly have no clue what you are on about. Ronin was a police officer who had several good posts about this topic.
Yeah. Though the only case I was involved in was as a teenager in the heart of Pennsylvania and my Mom's lawyer strongly advised me not to ask for an affirmation.
Of course, what they did use was something about "Under pain of punishment from the Almighty" -- a lot stronger than simply "So help me, God."
Rob
crazyfingers
06 Feb 2010, 05:18 PM
One of those threads Lane mentioned- Swearing in as a witness (http://www.freeratio.org/thearchives/showthread.php?t=139812)
For the life of me I can't seem to find the switch to make it reveal the old posts. Clicking thread tools does nothing.
Iblis waswas
07 Feb 2010, 01:05 PM
I contacted my local council as part of the NSS campaign despite living in Scotland's least religious city (Aberdeen). Local government, like national, is no place for religious ceremony.
On the topic of swearing an oath in court, I have been in court in Scotland three times, twice as a witness and once facing a charge. At no point did I have to swear an oath on a bible. I did have to agree to tell the truth verbally but I don't recall any mention of God or religion as I would think I would have challenged this. It could be though that under the stress of those court appearances that I didn't notice any mention of God but I feel that would have been unlikely. It's over ten years since all of those appearances so my memory of being there is time faded.
Alethias
07 Feb 2010, 10:02 PM
More that you're supposed to swear on what you hold holyI'd ask the judge if i could swear on my belly. It kinda looks like a buddha belly, and it's pretty divine as far as I'm concerned.
Jobar
07 Feb 2010, 11:26 PM
One of those threads Lane mentioned- Swearing in as a witness (http://www.freeratio.org/thearchives/showthread.php?t=139812)
For the life of me I can't seem to find the switch to make it reveal the old posts. Clicking thread tools does nothing.
I noticed that problem yesterday, too. It appears to be fixed now.
crazyfingers
08 Feb 2010, 01:43 AM
One of those threads Lane mentioned- Swearing in as a witness (http://www.freeratio.org/thearchives/showthread.php?t=139812)
For the life of me I can't seem to find the switch to make it reveal the old posts. Clicking thread tools does nothing.
I noticed that problem yesterday, too. It appears to be fixed now.
Cool. I'm not crazy or stupid. It's not like I haven't been using VB for a while... :D
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