Christian group defends Ugandan death-to-gays bill

[Jobar]

http://www.christiannewswire.com/news/3241012954.html

"Uganda's people and government deserve support, not criticism, from the United States," said Kincaid. "They are up against the international homosexual lobby, the money of George Soros, and the Obama Administration. They are trying to create a Christian culture that is protective of families and children."

Ahhh, True Christian love and charity.

Maybe we can get them to all move to Uganda?

[rog]

Maybe we can get them to all move to Uganda?
I think it's bad enough without you sending your rubbish there too!

[Master Taran]

Maybe we can get them to all move to Uganda?I don't care who you are......That's funny. :evil:

[Celsus]

I found that statement demeaning and insulting. There are many Ugandans, including my fiancee and several of my former colleagues, who oppose this bill but unfortunately the politics of Western liberalism has painted the entire country with this ridiculous smear about their general intolerance.

Yes people are conservative, but no this characterisation is not necessarily representative and certainly is not fair to them.

[Jobar]

Celsus, are you referring to that news story, or my comment on it?

I trust the former; if not, my remark was intentional sarcasm.

[DMB]

I think it's US fundie Christianity that has fuelled this in the first place.

[Haswell]

Piss boiling stuff.

[Celsus]

Celsus, are you referring to that news story, or my comment on it?

I trust the former; if not, my remark was intentional sarcasm.
I meant yours, because it presupposes what a horrible place Uganda supposedly is.

[Ray Moscow]

Celsus, is this sort of oppressive legislation typical of Uganda?

I don't know much about the country except a bit of TV documentary about the Idi Amin days, which were a long time ago.

Shipping our religious nuts to them is not going to help them, regardless.

[Celsus]

Uganda has among the most progressive refugee rights legislation in all of Africa (though implementation has been another matter). I'm proud to have worked on it. It also tabled a very progressive bill on female genital mutilation at the same time as the anti-homosexuality bill. It may become the first country in Africa to pass an anti-torture bill, which my fiancee is currently working on, and is now sitting in Parliament.

On the other hand, it has old colonial hangovers like outlawing of homosexuality, but many ex-colonial countries are not so different in this regard. It practices capital punishment with often farcical trials. It has rarely if ever prosecuted homosexuality, and even heterosexual under-aged sex (termed "defilement") here is usually settled out of court through customary practice (often the reason defilement ends up in court is actually disputes over dowry). The point is that it has now become the norm to ascribe backward political conservatism to Uganda, which is unfair at best and xenophobic at worst. Does it have a long way to go? Yes, certainly. Are backwards steps also possible? Again yes, certainly. But where it currently is at regarding legislation shouldn't be forgotten.

There has been unhelpful foreign meddling on both sides of the debate. Where conservatives have succeeded really, is in 'naturalising' homophobia in the country, and combatting this has been very problematic for outsiders - it is almost a fight Ugandans themselves must take on, despite the risks to themselves.

[sohy]

Thank you for the information Celsus. How much do you think the spread of AIDS has influenced homophobic policy? Do you think AIDS has simply been used in an opportunistic way by extreme Xian outsiders or do you think the fear and spread of AIDS has been a big factor in draconian legislation in regards to homosexuality? Has any inside or outside group made any large effort in the area of public health, such as condom distrubution and education in regards to the spread of STDs? What about heterosexual transmission? Do people even understand the high risk of the spread of AIDS to women ( especially ) that are in relationships with men.

Is there as much outrage directed toward lesbians, who have a much lower rate of transmission of STDs, when compared to men? Is all homosexual activity targeted, or is it mostly male homosexuality?

I don't expect you to know everything about this issue, just wondering what your opinion might be. It seems to me that homophobia became a lot worse over here once the spread of AIDS was associated with homosexuality. I would hope that by now, people realize that the spread is not limited to gay sex, but back in the late 70s or early 80s, before the disease was well understood, it was often referred to as, "the gay disease." I would think that this had some influence on the rise of homophobia. Of course the conservative Xian mentality helped perpetuate this attitude as well. It could be that the emerging openness of the gay community had more influence on attitudes than anything else. Are there many gay activists in Uganda and are gay people open about their sexual orientation?

Things are usually much more complex than they first appear and I'm trying to figure out what other factors, besides the hubris of extremist Xians may have influenced this type of legislation in Uganda.

[Worldtraveller]

I think we should get all the fundies to move to Uganda, we'll take all the Uganda gays (and anyone else who wants to get away from the fundy whackmuffins).

Deal? :D

[Matty]

lol @ celsus.
On the other hand, it has old colonial hangovers like outlawing of homosexuality, but many ex-colonial countries are not so different in this regard.

"Dont blame retarded laws like hanging gays on the country that just adopted it. Blame it on the colonisation of that country back in the day. The good stuff is due to the progressive Ugandans striving so hard against the background of colonial evil, the nasty shit is ALL colonial hangover so dont you be blaming the country that just okayed it. Blame the colonists. "


Riiiight. Is there anything you dont handwave aside without laying it at the door of old school colonialism? Racism comes in many forms no?

[Haswell]

Anyone who agrees or promotes this is just a sick fuck.

[Celsus]

lol @ celsus.
On the other hand, it has old colonial hangovers like outlawing of homosexuality, but many ex-colonial countries are not so different in this regard.

"Dont blame retarded laws like hanging gays on the country that just adopted it. Blame it on the colonisation of that country back in the day. The good stuff is due to the progressive Ugandans striving so hard against the background of colonial evil, the nasty shit is ALL colonial hangover so dont you be blaming the country that just okayed it. Blame the colonists. "


Riiiight. Is there anything you dont handwave aside without laying it at the door of old school colonialism? Racism comes in many forms no?
Singapore has the Internal Security Act, which permits indefinite detention without trial. We got it directly from the British.

Singapore and Uganda both outlaw "unnatural" sex. Presumably, oral and anal sex are included in that. We got those laws directly from the British.

Uganda outlaws homosexuality. They did in fact get it from the British.

I am not laying the stupidity of the current regime on the foot of the colonial door, though I can see some over-sensitive wanks getting into a fit about the implications. What I'm saying is that many of the faults of current legislation are exactly the same faults British legislation had in the 1950s, that have never been repealed. Britain is to be congratulated for repealing the ISA and bans on homosexuality and unnatural sex. Other countries may be about 50 years behind, but the gulf in terms of normative standards is really not as large as the "omgUgandansareev0l" crowd would have it, which is the only point I'm making.

Congrats on revealing the stick up your ass again though.

[Matty]

Singapore has the Internal Security Act, which permits indefinite detention without trial. We got it directly from the British.

Singapore and Uganda both outlaw "unnatural" sex. Presumably, oral and anal sex are included in that. We got those laws directly from the British.

Uganda outlaws homosexuality. They did in fact get it from the British. Right. and the reason it is STILL enforced is the fault of the Brits how?


I am not laying the stupidity of the current regime on the foot of the colonial door,Bullshit you arent, why even mention it then? Let alone in an accusatory fashion.

I have no urgent need to defend the colonial past of the british empire Celsus, in fact i'll be happy to criticise it where its relevant (like not in this case) but your kneejerk "OMG Colonialist throwback to every modern ill is really fucking laughable.

[Celsus]

Thank you for the information Celsus. How much do you think the spread of AIDS has influenced homophobic policy?
In Uganda, not really. The homophobic legislation is just stuff that's been around since the British left them behind and has never been repealed. It's also legally an offense to commit adultery (payable with a fine of 50 shillings which in current monies is worth about 2p. They've all been on the books since the 1920s colonial administration and Uganda did not change any of these in response to the HIV fight.

Anyone who's studied the spread of HIV in Africa even marginally objectively will know the main vectors have been the unholy alliance of truck drivers, prostitution and militaries as the principle problems relating to its spread. Truck drivers in particular, carried the virus all across the continent in the 1990s.
Do you think AIDS has simply been used in an opportunistic way by extreme Xian outsiders or do you think the fear and spread of AIDS has been a big factor in draconian legislation in regards to homosexuality? Has any inside or outside group made any large effort in the area of public health, such as condom distrubution and education in regards to the spread of STDs?
Uganda has some of the best anti-AIDS programmes in Africa, though it is threatened by retarded abstinence-only programmes (national awareness programmes normally promote "A B C" as in Abstain, Be faithful, use a Condom, and it is quite deeply rooted in the social psyche now). It has been executed by both NGOs and government.
What about heterosexual transmission? Do people even understand the high risk of the spread of AIDS to women ( especially ) that are in relationships with men.
Yes, the association between homosexuality and AIDS is not particularly strong here, though worryingly, they have become scapegoated occasionally. The story everyone "knows" that it's usually unfaithful husbands who catch AIDS and spread it to the wife then both die leaving two-tier grandparents-grandchildren families which are quite tragic.
Is there as much outrage directed toward lesbians, who have a much lower rate of transmission of STDs, when compared to men? Is all homosexual activity targeted, or is it mostly male homosexuality?
Actually, most of Ugandans I know simply don't know very much about homosexuality, other than that it's "disgusting". Teaching gender issues (something my former boss tried to do in our organisation) was a nightmare of clearing misconceptions and then having to deny you were gay and all sorts of stupidity. But I think in the long run, most people got the idea that from a human rights perspective (which is fundamentally what my former organisation is, and you couldn't work for it without subscribing to some notion of human rights), there is no ethical or legal rationale for unequal treatment of homosexuals, never mind criminalisation of their activities.
Things are usually much more complex than they first appear and I'm trying to figure out what other factors, besides the hubris of extremist Xians may have influenced this type of legislation in Uganda.
I think personally, that this legislation was a bait-and-switch by the government. Basically, they're facing huge resistance from the Baganda kingdom over federalism (there were massive riots with hundreds killed in the capital last year), and they tabled this populist motion in order to distract the population. Bahati is a Baganda from the ruling party, and it was designed to generate some local support. What wasn't anticipated was the international backlash which led to some furious backpeddling by those higher up and it became a "foreign policy" issue. There's little chance it will go through as-is now. But what I fear is a long-term resistance to outside opinion because of the heavy-handed way in which certain states opposed their motion, and this ammunition will be used for a long time to come.

[Celsus]

Singapore has the Internal Security Act, which permits indefinite detention without trial. We got it directly from the British.

Singapore and Uganda both outlaw "unnatural" sex. Presumably, oral and anal sex are included in that. We got those laws directly from the British.

Uganda outlaws homosexuality. They did in fact get it from the British. Right. and the reason it is STILL enforced is the fault of the Brits how?


I am not laying the stupidity of the current regime on the foot of the colonial door,Bullshit you arent, why even mention it then? Let alone in an accusatory fashion.

I have no urgent need to defend the colonial past of the british empire Celsus, in fact i'll be happy to criticise it where its relevant (like not in this case) but your kneejerk "OMG Colonialist throwback to every modern ill is really fucking laughable.
You're just putting words in my mouth. I merely explained where it came from - pointing out how recently other "progressive" countries had the very same legislations on their books, and you can twist your knickers all you like and it still won't change where the legislation came from.

[Matty]

Okay, just so we are on the same page and agreeing the modern day hanging of gays by backward Ugandans is nothing really to do with their colonial heritage, except that such laws are more at home 150years back.

FWIW, and its a semantic point you dont twist your own knickers, you get your knickers in a twist. But nice one anyway i havent heard that in a while, its cute.

[Celsus]

FWIW, and its a semantic point you dont twist your own knickers, you get your knickers in a twist. But nice one anyway i havent heard that in a while, its cute.
Of course. I was emphasising how desperate you are to twist them up yourself so as to throw yourself into a wild fury. Just like how much you enjoy constipating yourself with that stick in your ass. :)

[David B]

Anyway, weren't the newer elements of Ugandan moves to draconian anti-gay laws largely incited by various American evangelists, like Rick Warren, who is now trying to retrace his steps to a degree?

David

[Celsus]

Anglicans say No to Gays Bill (http://www.monitor.co.ug/News/National/-/688334/858926/-/wi1k07/-/index.html). They join the Catholic Church, that had earlier rejected it, and they've now managed a unique feat of isolating the Evangelicals on this bill. What is especially interesting is that the Church of Uganda (official name for Anglicans) has been among the most virulently homophobic of Anglican wings over the consecration of gay bishops. It's not a full rejection however, they still would like something of an 'Unnatural Offences' act in place.

Also a very nice op-ed (http://www.monitor.co.ug/OpEd/OpEdColumnists/-/689366/858880/-/3xakedz/-/index.html) about AIDS and tolerance in Uganda by Charles Onyango-Obbo (imo one of the best journalists in the country). The Philly Lutaaya he talks about is this guy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOgATUN6HK4), Uganda's biggest music export of the 1970s-80s who died of AIDS in 1989 but played a huge role in publicising the disease before he died.

[Jobar]

I found this in Steve Mirsky's Anti Gravity column in February's issue of Scientific American-
[Sen. James M.] Inhofe's attacks on climate change science have been so engrossing that until recently I was unaware of his influence in Uganda. Investigative reporter Jeff Sharlet points out that Inhofe influences Ugandan parliament member David Bahati through their common membership in the Washington, DC evangelical group called The Family. Bahati introduced legislation in Uganda that recognized "aggravated homosexuality", punishable in some cases by death. (Scrutiny by MSNBC's Rachael Maddow led to Inhofe repudiating the bill as this issue went to press.)