Let Sikh pupils wear ceremonial daggers, judge says

[Ray Moscow]

I'm OK with the jewelry bit but not the actual knife carrying, religion or no.

Let Sikh pupils wear ceremonial daggers, judge says (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/feb/08/sikhs-pupils-ceremonial-daggers-judge)

Britain's first Asian judge has called for Sikhs to be allowed to wear their ceremonial daggers to school.

The comments by Sir Mota Singh QC, come after a number of cases of Sikhs being banned from wearing the daggers – known as kirpans – and other religious artefacts in schools or workplaces.

"Not allowing someone who is baptised to wear a kirpan is not right," Singh told the BBC Asian Network.

Let's just be glad no-one has invented a "carrying hand grenade" religion yet.

[Faerie]

A couple years ago (about 15 to be exact) it was very much accepted for some of our cultures to carry "traditional" weapons (the knobkierrie - basically a thick cane with a rounded head), in fact the government actively encouraged it. Until the first mass altercation between two groups that left a couple' people with their heads bashed in. Now if you go toy-toying while striking for whatever cause down the road waving your traditional weapon, you're bound to be arrested.

[Free in Freeport]

I'm OK with the jewelry bit but not the actual knife carrying, religion or no.

Let Sikh pupils wear ceremonial daggers, judge says (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/feb/08/sikhs-pupils-ceremonial-daggers-judge)

Britain's first Asian judge has called for Sikhs to be allowed to wear their ceremonial daggers to school.

The comments by Sir Mota Singh QC, come after a number of cases of Sikhs being banned from wearing the daggers – known as kirpans – and other religious artefacts in schools or workplaces.

"Not allowing someone who is baptised to wear a kirpan is not right," Singh told the BBC Asian Network.

Let's just be glad no-one has invented a "carrying hand grenade" religion yet.

Wrong. It's called the NRA.

[Ray Moscow]

A couple years ago (about 15 to be exact) it was very much accepted for some of our cultures to carry "traditional" weapons (the knobkierrie - basically a thick cane with a rounded head), in fact the government actively encouraged it. Until the first mass altercation between two groups that left a couple' people with their heads bashed in. Now if you go toy-toying while striking for whatever cause down the road waving your traditional weapon, you're bound to be arrested.

Traditional weapons are usually perfectly adequate for killing people, which is why they are traditional weapons.

[Eudaimonist]

This ruling seems fine to me.


eudaimonia,

Mark

[Bane]

Yet another example of religionists getting a free pass where others do not....

[Ray Moscow]

I think this is just a public statement by a judge, not an actual court ruling.

[Aupmanyav]

Carrying 'kirpans' does make sikhs volatile in nature. They are likely to use it if there is a group clash between sikhs and muslims in UK or at any other place (the hindu/sikh differences are now over). Sikhs are also enjoined not to cut their beards or head-hair, but many do that in India or outside India. If that does not diminish their sikhism, they could also do without a 'kirpan'. Guru Nanak was against alcoholic drinks, but most sikhs drink. Therefore, it seems more like a lame excuse.

[lpetrich]

Reminds me of a common practice at fantasy and science-fiction conventions:

Peace-bonding

A peace-bonding is a conspicuous lock, tie, or mark which makes or identifies something as unusable as a weapon, that is, that the owner's intentions are purely peaceful.

So as long as those Sikhs peace-bond their daggers, they should be OK.

[Haswell]

As I understood it, Sikhs are allowed to wear Kirpans at schools as long as they are plastic, bendy replicas.

If this is not the case then even the judge's opinion is crap and should not stand.

Sikhs are, I think, exempt from wearing crash helmets on motorbikes and, in a recent test case, a Sikh police officer was found for in court when he complained that he was being forced to wear a riot helmet, during riot training.

I hope these are the first ones in the line, get brained within minutes so that we can stand in line and tell them to fuck off when the inevitable insurance claim comes in. Bastards.

[rog]

I've hear a lot of them are spotwelded into the sheath.

[Politesse]

Has there actually been any kirpan-related school violence in Britain? If there's an actual problem, I could see banning them. Otherwise, who cares?

[Notta]

Hey, if I'm a Jedi, can I let my kid bring his light sabre to school?

[MrFungus420]

Hey, if I'm a Jedi, can I let my kid bring his light sabre to school?

That depends.

You have to send me one first so that I can play with verify that it really is a lightsaber.

[Lugubert]

Kirpans are OK in Sweden as well. I approve, and know of no case where a kirpan (or even a sikh) has been involved in violent actions in this country.

On knife laws, isn't the case that True Scotsmen are allowed to wear their sgian dubh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sgian_dubh) in Britain?

And sikhs don't like the "dagger" label. Daggers are for killers, the kirpan should only be used in self-defence.

[Politesse]

On knife laws, isn't the case that True Scotsmen are allowed to wear their sgian dubh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sgian_dubh) in Britain?Certainly by adults, but not children at school, I believe.

[Haswell]

I once photographed a wedding where they were alll Jocks in Kilts. They whipped out their Dirks at every occasion and the buggers looked authentically sharp to me.

The Kirpan is a knife; a sharp knife. Knives are forbidden in schools, in fact carrying a knife in a UK street, even if concealed, without good reason (there isn't one) is an offence. You cant even claim it as a tool aif youa re a tradesman. Its just not cricket; nether is allowing a small minority of people to get away with flaunting UK laws on the basis that it is their belief. End of.

Although, If I am allowed to carry a Glock 9mm so I may follow the dictates of my conscience then thats fine.

[Valheru]

Let's just be glad no-one has invented a "carrying hand grenade" religion yet.

Sorry, but you're too late, unfortunately. US neo-con bibliatarism fits the description admirably.

[munnki]

This came up in Scotland when for their graduation students would wear a decorative knife in their kilt as part of the costume. The school I worked in compromised by allowing the students to carrying a plastic or replica knife rather than the real thing. I'm not sure why such a compromise shouldn't be acceptable to the Sikhs in Britain when it's acceptable for the Scots.

[Haswell]

This came up in Scotland when for their graduation students would wear a decorative knife in their kilt as part of the costume. The school I worked in compromised by allowing the students to carrying a plastic or replica knife rather than the real thing. I'm not sure why such a compromise shouldn't be acceptable to the Sikhs in Britain when it's acceptable for the Scots.

However, if anyone is going to kick off first it will be the Jocks.

Originally Posted by Ray Moscow View Post
Let's just be glad no-one has invented a "carrying hand grenade" religion yet.

What about the Holy hand grenade of Antioch?

[darjeeling]

I'm not sure why such a compromise shouldn't be acceptable to the Sikhs in Britain when it's acceptable for the Scots.

I've heard of some Sikhs carrying replicas or tiny mini-replicas on a necklace and whatnot.

[Bane]

Yeah, if the kirpan is worn only with traditional dress (referring to the Scottish costume) for ceremonies, then it's fine.

However, the Scottish costume is ceremonial, i.e. not everyday, so the daggers can't be worn most of the time.

[Notta]

I once photographed a wedding where they were alll Jocks in Kilts. They whipped out their Dirks at every occasion and the buggers looked authentically sharp to me.

Hmmm....I don't recall penises being called "Dirks" before. It must be a cultural thing.

[Ray Moscow]

I once photographed a wedding where they were alll Jocks in Kilts. They whipped out their Dirks at every occasion and the buggers looked authentically sharp to me.

Hmmm....I don't recall penises being called "Dirks" before. It must be a cultural thing.

The "c" is trilled like an "r" in many parts of Scotland.

not really

[HinduWoman]

In many USA schools students are allowed the kirpan if it is dull and three inches long.
As long as it is kept hidden and never used to threaten others, it won't cause problems.

[Notta]

HinduWoman, I'm not sure you're correct in saying that kirpans are allowed in "many USA schools."

Most schools here have a 'zero tolerance' policy about knives and weapons. For instance, a child bringing a plastic butter knife to school can be suspended or expelled; even a child as young as five or six. A child who had a toy plastic fireman's axe as part of a costume was suspended. A 17-year-old male with a Swiss Army knife LOCKED UP IN HIS CAR was suspended for 10 days. A member of a school's rifle drill team with a WOODEN RIFLE GIVEN TO HER BY THE SCHOOL was suspended because she had it in her car - locked up.

A child who had a stainless steel butter knife in her lunchbox gave it to her teacher, after her mother had included it in her lunch, and she was suspended for 10 days. She was 8 years old.

Given these cases, I seriously doubt ANY public school in the US allows students to carry a kirpan, no matter how small or how dulled the blade. The zero tolerance policy does not allow for any religious exemptions. ANYTHING that resembles a weapon or a blade is forbidden and the bearer can be expelled or suspended.

[Anne]

http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/world-news/sikh-students-now-can-carry-kirpan-in-61-us-schools_100252430.html

Apparently NY and Ohio have made it legal to be carried--- or rather made it illegal to deny a right to carry, but that has nothing to do with schools.

It looks like only certain private schools allow it.

[Aupmanyav]

the kirpan should only be used in self-defence.'Kirpan' also means a sword with a three feet blade. Which 'kirpan' do you mean? It is allowed in India too, even the three feet one. And who guarantees 'self defence'? And what if somebody feels threatened by the 'kirpan' and attacks first?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/leicester/content/images/2007/04/24/gurdwara_13_420x315.jpg, http://static.indianexpress.com/m-images/Thursday%20,%20Aug%2020,%202009%20at%201250%20hrs/M_Id_101288_sikh_Kirpan.jpg, http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2035/2430716615_c14f9c948b.jpg, http://infidelsunite.typepad.com/.a/6a0111685b4b71970c0120a55f343c970c-pi (Is he not cute?) :)

[sanshou]

seems to me the only relevant question here is: should students be allowed to bring knives to school? the matter of whether it's a religious knife or not is irrelevant

[Notta]

In public schools in the US, the answer is "no".

[sanshou]

thread deserves some images of kirpans, i think:
http://www.insidesocal.com/southbay/sikh-knife.ap.jpg
http://s.www.sikhnet.com/files/news/2009/February/kirpan-article.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_6zhoxv2svL0/Sp_ZM1O148I/AAAAAAAAEDQ/oomxAaZdD8A/s400/kirpan.jpg

[David B]

When I was a lad it was near universal for boys to have knives of some sort or other.

Though the staff tried to suppress it there were crazes for playing split the kipper. Dozens of games going on simultaneously during breaks.

http://strange-games.blogspot.com/2007/10/split-kipper-strange-games-with-knives.html

One time it was announced that only knives suitable for sharpening pencils could be carried. Next day - this from the authority of the brother of my then best friend, who was there - someone asked the teacher if he could sharpen his pencil, and on being told to go ahead, walked to the waste paper bin and proceeded to sharpen his pencil with his father's wartime bayonet. No action taken - viewed as humour.

I don't know what the world is coming to, these days. Bloody hell, not only are knives banned but I dread to think how our experiments with explosives would be viewed these days. I doubt if most of the ingredients we used to get would be available now:(

Kids today may have computer games, mobile phones and stuff, but in many ways they live impoverished lives compared with a couple of generations ago:(

David

[Anne]

I'm sure every generation thinks that. ;)

I carried a knife every day from fifth grade to... well, there's a leatherman in my purse right now.

[David B]

I'm sure every generation thinks that. ;)

I carried a knife every day from fifth grade to... well, there's a leatherman in my purse right now.

Well, it was a bit tongue in cheek:p

I still carry a penknife everywhere - comes in useful for cutting mushrooms, samphire, whatever.

David

[Haswell]

I have a really good fuck off Leatherman also, and I cant take it out; there have been several times when it would have been very handy.

[DMB]

I don't think religion should trump the law on issues like that.

[Anne]

I think the law should make it possible for all religions and people to have protection and freedom, and interfere as little as possible.

This, IMO, is a no brainer... Protect everyone else first. They can use rubber knives.

btw, 'plastic' knives are not all harmless disposable ones. There are many deadly ones.

http://www.keepshooting.com/productimages/knives/polymer/polymerknifebig.jpg

These black polymer hard plastic knives are made of the same material that Glock pistols are made from. They contain no magnetic material, so they are undetectable through metal detectors.

[Aupmanyav]

thread deserves some images of kirpans, i think: http://www.insidesocal.com/southbay/sikh-knife.ap.jpg, http://s.www.sikhnet.com/files/news/2009/February/kirpan-article.jpg, http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_6zhoxv2svL0/Sp_ZM1O148I/AAAAAAAAEDQ/oomxAaZdD8A/s400/kirpan.jpgAre the other kind not 'kirpans'? The idea is out-of-sync with times.