Bullying

[Alex]

Over the past week there have been allegations (in British newspapers) that the Prime Minister is a bad tempered man who bullies his staff. This is understood to be verbal violence and he hasn't threatened anyone with his fists. He is said to shout and snarl at people who either can't or won't answer back.

It's been reported that two or three staff who work at 10 Downing Street have contacted a telephone help line to ask for advice on coping with their boss's intimidating behaviour. They might think they can sue for damages if they can prove they've been hounded to the point of resignation from their jobs.

I've never been bullied in the workplace. I have, of course, encountered bullies in the school playground and in the military where it's endemic - especially during initial training of recruits or at what Americans call boot camp. Some people think there is such a thing as "long distance bullying" on the internet.

I'm sceptical of counselling being of any use, and think you have to work out your own way of dealing with bullies. But I may be wrong.

What advice would you give to someone, maybe a child in particular, whose life is being made miserable by bullies?

[Valheru]

Baseball bats.

[Faerie]

Advice for bullying should be situation specific, so its a bit of a tough one to generalise upon.

My eldest child was physically bullied in his preschool and I suggested to him to hit back, which he duly did... during lunch, he simply walked up to this little kid and punched in square off his chair, and my son, not having an ounce of malice in him, promptly burst out in tears and was hauled to the principals office for bullying, cost me an afternoon off to explain the complete scenario to the powers that be. The ending of that situation was pleasant though, the two boys are still friends now 13 years later.

Most bullies back off if you challenge them, especially in the work environment - although workplace bullying amongst women is the most horrendous thing imaginable. Women are wicked subtle fighters and will undermine you in such a manner that you have no idea how to counteract it.

Another reason not to work for a woman... flipping never again.

[Ray Moscow]

What advice would you give to someone, maybe a child in particular, whose life is being made miserable by bullies?

Martial arts or boxing lessons, and their verbal & emotional equivalents

[Valheru]

Baseball bats.

[Alex]

Most bullies back off if you challenge them, especially in the work environment - although workplace bullying amongst women is the most horrendous thing imaginable. Women are wicked subtle fighters and will undermine you in such a manner that you have no idea how to counteract it.

Another reason not to work for a woman... flipping never again.

I've worked for a woman boss in a couple of different places. They were both quite amiable.

It's not been my experience, but I know it's naive to think that women bosses are always likely to be more considerate than men.

[Free in Freeport]

Document, document, document!

Document inappropriate actions and words from the boss. Document your attempts to improve the situation. Confront the boss about the situation, using specific terminology, such as "please stop standing so close to me and shouting, because it is hostile. I dislike working in a hostile environment". Ask witnesses to document their version of events.

When someone is in your face, say "I won't discuss this when you are shouting/sweating/threatening/belittling me" then walk out. And document what just happened - just the facts!

[Free in Freeport]

Document, document, document!

Document inappropriate actions and words from the boss. Document your attempts to improve the situation. Confront the boss about the situation, using specific terminology, such as "please stop standing so close to me and shouting, because it is hostile. I dislike working in a hostile environment". Ask witnesses to document their version of events.

When someone is in your face, say "I won't discuss this when you are shouting/sweating/threatening/belittling me" then walk out. And document what just happened - just the facts!

Oh sorry, after a re-read I saw that you asked about children, and I responded with workplace strategies.

Well for kids, I advise to avoid the person, place, and situations where the bully(s) are, as much as possible. If it's verbal, teach them to ignore. During my school years I had a few jerks try to toy with me a bit, but they moved on when I didn't give them a reaction.
If it's physical, do whatever you must, to protect oneself! Nobody should have to put up with being slammed around. If its in school, report to the office. Repeatedly, if necessary. Document reports.

If it's in the neighborhood, start by talking to the parents. If that doesn't help, call the police.

[Matty]

i dont count shit talking as bullying. to do so belittles the swathes of kids who ar actually bullied

for the actual physical bullying get Jr into martial arts lessons early on.

[rog]

i dont count shit talking as bullying. to do so belittles the swathes of kids who ar actually bullied


I think you will find that a lot have people have been deeply affected by verbal bullying - the stress caused can indeed make people ill, the memories can last a life time; your sentiment goes against the principle of providing a safe, happy environment for children - something anyone in a position of loco parentis should strive to maintain.

[Alex]

Oh sorry, after a re-read I saw that you asked about children, and I responded with workplace strategies.



That's okay. Advice for children at school threatened by bullies or how to handle bullying in the workplace is on topic.

[Ray Moscow]

i dont count shit talking as bullying. to do so belittles the swathes of kids who ar actually bullied


I think you will find that a lot have people have been deeply affected by verbal bullying - the stress caused can indeed make people ill, the memories can last a life time; your sentiment goes against the principle of providing a safe, happy environment for children - something anyone in a position of loco parentis should strive to maintain.

The child (or adult) needs to learn to defend himself/herself from verbal attacks as well as physical.

Being a doormat and taking it is not a good solution.

[Matty]

Exactly

I think you will find that a lot have people have been deeply affected by verbal bullying - the stress caused can indeed make people ill, the memories can last a life time;
I never said it was harmless now did i?
I said i dont count it as bullying, actually i'll modify that in some extreme cases where kids have been verbally abused repeatedly for a long time, it could count i guess . But jr coming home upset because someone at school said something nasty to him or her isnt bullying untill the actual harassment bit takes over. Thats key, the protracted and persistent aspect of it. I also think that bullying has a personal aspect. If the nom du jour in a given schoolyard is say "Flid" and all the kids are hurling it about, does sensitive jr who finds it much more hurtful have a case for being bullied after a week of it being thrown about the schoolyard, or is it purely contextual?

Some kid at school takes a dislike to you and calls you a cunt when he gets chance? Not bullying.

Same kid follows you home every night taking the piss out of the fact that your mom died or your ran off with the milkman? More like it but it depends on how long it goes on for. If said wee wanker is just picking on you for a few days for something to do. Not bullying.

Same kid follow you home giving you shit about your dead mom and a couple of slaps for good measure.
probably is bullying, depends how long it goes on for.


your sentiment goes against the principle of providing a safe, happy environment for children - something anyone in a position of loco parentis should strive to maintain. how about the job of teaching children to deal with different social situations including uncomfortable ones? isnt that part of the job too?

i completely disagree that a parents job is to cotton wool wrap their kids and protect them from every sign of confrontation. I think the job is to make them ready to be adults. Part of that entails existing in a world where not every one likes you, and sometimes for no good reason, but where you cant go running to some authority figure every time some cunt does your head in.

My main problem is that in good old PC UK it is seen as bullying these days for there simply to be a power imblance that is acted on, or to mention an obvious difference (muslim kids being "bullied" by comments about their headwear for example) and as soon as you make every bit of to and fro with a winner and a loser, or every time there is some shift in the schoolyard pecking order, "bullying", then the actual poor fuckers that are being relentlessly victimized over a protracted time, get lost in the resultant storm of pseudo-bullying PC bullshit claims.

Schoolyards are a jungle for good reason. Its a training ground for life no? That applies to the social contexts well as the classroom and if you teach a generation of kids that everyone will be forced to be nice to them always, for fear of being branded a bully, they are in for a real fucking shock when they enter the real world.


as for adults in the workplace being "bullied". Grow the fuck up and sort it out. If you dont have the stones to file grievances or take it to the PtB, then start looking for another job. There are a bunch of cunts in the world and some of them are bosses, get used to it. You cant force people to be nice.

[Notta]

One of the most effective ways to deal with bullies is to stand up to them. Not just the target: EVERYONE who witnesses it. Bullies like to isolate their targets. If observers of bullying came forward and said something like, "Hey! Stop that! Don't be such a bully," the bully becomes the target of peer pressure and will eventually back down. When observers say nothing, the bully becomes stronger because of implicit acceptance of his/her behavior.

There's a reason why bullies surround themselves with people who support their behavior: they are essentially cowards. When the crowd turns against them, they stop.

The people in the workplace should have banded together and approached their boss. People who were not bullied should say, "I think this is wrong. You're bullying these people."

[DMB]

My son got very badly bullied at school. It's all right saying "fight back", but if they gang up on you, it's not necessarily a help. My son was bullied by 4 kids and I complained repeatedly to the school but always got crap along the lines that he had bullied them. He was only at that school for a year, when he was aged 11--12. I got him into a much better school thereafter. It had a decent anti-bullying policy in place. But now he is almost 30 he still gets very emtional about the kids who beat him up and told me a few years ago that if he met one of them in the street he'd be ready to kill him.

Any decent school should have a well thought-out anti-bullying policy. Parents need to ask the direction of the school about it as early as possible.

I got bullied for part of my school career. I became very physically tough, fought back with great determination and ratted on the bullies.

[Matty]

There's a reason why bullies surround themselves with people who support their behavior: they are essentially cowards. When the crowd turns against them, they stop.

The people in the workplace should have banded together and approached their boss. People who were not bullied should say, "I think this is wrong. You're bullying these people."

sense. and something that will never be learnt by those who are taught its just a case of blowing the whistle and the teacher comes running to solve your problems for you.

Any decent school should have a well thought-out anti-bullying policy. no issues with that statement as long as it is a realistic one. Not just an all encompassing blanket for stopping all negative social interaction in the schoolyard. Thats seems to be the aim of much antibullying rhetoric and legislation.

[Valheru]

Baseball bats.

[Valheru]

Did I mention baseball bats?

[Valheru]

Not? Okay.

Baseball bats.

Applied to the vulnerable parts of the anatomy.

Lather, rinse, repeat until the bullying stops.

[Ray Moscow]

Adults can probably alleviate much of the bullying, but with human nature being as shitty as it often is, kids have to be taught to protect themselves. Sooner or later the bullies will come.

Most of them can be sorted out with a poke in the nose, although there are times when this doesn't work (too many of them, too big, etc.). Then one has to seek some help or a baseball bat.

[Goldie]

I was a tiny child, but one hell of a scapper.
I was raised with 3 brothers and 62 kids on my block. I was in a fist fight most everyday for as far back as I can remember. I wasn't a bully. Infact, I used to stick up for kids who wouldn't stick up for themselves. In my neighborhood, you either fought back or you were horribly bullied. My younger brother was just a sweetheart and refused to fight.
I often fought his battles. (I'll never forget they day that he finally did stick up for himself. He beat the shit out of the other kid. I was jumping up and down, "Get 'em, Jay!!!")
One kid, though, I simply could not beat. My mom asked why I didn't just kick his ass, and when I told her that I had tried and we were just too even, she came up with a plan.

My mom was a tall, large built woman....very different than me. When she wore her leathers and helmet she looked like a man. She got on her motorcycle and Jay was on the back, my brother and his friend, Duffy were both big and mean and they rode along. I was on the back of Duffy's bike. We found the kid, walking alone, and ran the bikes onto the sidewalk and surrounded the bully. My brother said, "See this kid?" and pointed at Jay. "You touch him again and we are coming after you. You got it?"
Oh, that kid was scared shitless and he was never a problem again. :)

Sometimes, you have to bluff them.

[Matty]

gett'er in counselling with the skool therapist quick sharp before she bullies someone to death. ;)

[BioBeing]

My son is caught in the middle of an odd "bullying" situation right now...

One of his classmates, T, he has been friends with since they were 2 years old. They are now 10. T is a bit odd: he wears odd colored crocs. Like blue on his left foot, with a green sock; and greenon his right foot with a blue sock. When he was 5, he proudly wore his sparkly red Dorothy slippers from the Wizard of Oz, and rode a Barbie bike his parent bought specifically for him. He also has an IQ of 165 and is VERY smart. My son has always stood up for him, even if he doesn't quiet understand. They have been like brothers.

However, T has been sick for months now, and only goes to school for a few hours a day most days. No-one is quite sure what is up with him, but he gets bad headaches, hallucinations, and other weird shit. So my son has made new friends at school. One in particular, W (no, not that W), who lives a few blocks from us, has been on many sleepovers at our house, and is as quiet and polite as a 10 year old can possibly be.

So... T has taken a huge dislike to W. He has accused W of bullying him; calling him names; antisemitism (Yes, T is Jewish); and dreams that W is killing him. At school yesterday, T wrote down two pages of notes of occasions when he claimed W bullied him. My son says this is ridiculous: W barely even spoke to T, let alone bullied him. Most of the things T wrote down simply never happened, according to my son. Like T says W kept kicking his chair: W does not sit close enough to T to be able to do that!

As an aside (maybe), in first grade, one boy (N) who was accused of bullying T was suspended from school for 3 days. Now, that kid was a bit of a bad apple anyway, but some of the things he was accused of saying to T (like "the holocaust was a good thing") were apparently made up. According to my son, N talked about the holocaust as he had watched a show about it on TV, and had said that it was a bad thing. N and my son were also becoming friends.

And, also yesterday, T went to the school counsellor who then went to the class and gave them a talk on bullying. Saying it did not have to be just physical etc...

So, as we are seeing it right now, T is bullying W with the (unspoken) threat of having him kicked out of school. All for the offense of being buddies with my son! Which is causing my son tears, as well as W. My wife was going to be in school today, and was going to speak to the counsellor herself. She has, of course, also been on the phone with both Mothers, also all of them in tears and accusing everyone else of lying...

Anyway, sorry for the long post! tl;dr: Bullies come in all shapes and sizes. But they all suck.

[Pendaric]

As a parent of a 14 year old daughter, if she comes home and tells me that other children have been repeatedly giving her unwelcome attention of whatever form and they haven't desisted when asked, I'm taking it further.

That doesn't mean to the police, unless we're talking about serious assault, but it does mean to the teachers at the school and it possibly means a phone call to the other child's parents. And if those actions don't cause the behaviour to cease, then I would eventually involve the police.

A lot of people seem to believe in some 'Karate Kid' kind of world where the bullied quiet kid is actually Bruce Lee in disguise just waiting until he is provoked enough to beat the crap out of the other guy. That's not always the way it works in real life. Not all bullies are cowards, and not all picked on kids are able to fight. Nor should they have to.

We live in a civilized society, and one of the things that makes it so is the rule of law over the rule of violence. I don't want my child bringing up to believe that violence is an appropriate course of action at any point, or that she should have to put up with it.

Bullying can be nasty and vindictive and damaging for the kid concerned, and a lot of what people are calling the knocks of growing up is just bullying re-labelled. It's only accepted behaviour for as long as society is prepared to accept it, and like a lot of things we would be better off outgrowing the acceptance of it.

[JamesBannon]

I despise bullies. That is all.

[Cath B]

My son is caught in the middle of an odd "bullying" situation right now...

Anyway, sorry for the long post! tl;dr: Bullies come in all shapes and sizes. But they all suck.

No need to be sorry.

This seems a highly valid example of a scenario where the issue of who is actually doing the bullying is not necessarily clear cut.

[Horrorfan]

For kids I think bluffing is the first step, however with a bluff you MUST MUST MUST be prepared to back it up so do not make the bluff something you will regret or cannot or are not capable of fulfilling such as " If you touch me again I will kill you." that is over the top.

I would suggest a simple. "Excuse me?" in a negative tone of voice followed by "if you do that again I guarantee I am going to break your nose and every time I see you I am going to smash you in the face." "Leave me alone or else."

If the bully does it again let him have it with all you have too show everyone that you are not going to take being bullied and let him know again if he does it again you are going to smash him in the face again.

Even a smaller kid that is weak can produce pain on a bully with a good straight punch right on the tip of the nose. When you are hauled off to the office (if it occurs at school) you explain the entire history and state plainly that you will not be bullied.

Yes some kids will beat your ass when you hit them, but the vast majority will find easier "prey" that does not hit back.

[Politesse]

I hated the "just hit them back" line of reasoning when I was a child; it was simply not something my personality or physique allowed for, so I felt it led to a case of blaming the victim- it made it my fault that people were beating me up every day.

[Cath B]

Yes some kids will beat your ass when you hit them, but the vast majority will find easier "prey" that does not hit back.

Well that's OK then :rolleyes:

[Valheru]

Yes some kids will beat your ass when you hit them, but the vast majority will find easier "prey" that does not hit back.

Well that's OK then :rolleyes:

I think men have a different take on this, CB.

Male bullying tends to be physical, and fighting fire with fire in this case can be highly effective. It can also be beneficial for the "victim's" self-esteem and sense of control.

[Ray Moscow]

There are times when sticking up for oneself is not enough.

Most of the time it is, though. Bullies are generally looking for the weak but usually leave those who resist alone -- in fact, they usually come to like them afterwards. Usually they are just looking for someone strong enough to resist them.

There are some bastard bullies who don't give up, though. I've known a couple.

[Horrorfan]

Yes some kids will beat your ass when you hit them, but the vast majority will find easier "prey" that does not hit back.

Well that's OK then :rolleyes:

What is ok? I do not understand your response.

[Alex]

Advising a child to "hit back" is too late. He has to hit first and, if that doesn't deter the bully, be prepared to take the consequences. Sometimes a really smashing first strike will get the bully off his back. It's more effective when the bully isn't expecting it. It won't work of course if a gang of bullies is picking on one child. And in many cases a child isn't aggressive enough or strong enough to deal with a more powerful bully. So striking first is no inclusive answer and more violence is to be deplored anyway.

Giving advice to girls who are bullied at school is very difficult, and I have no idea what might stop it other than demanding protection from the teachers who are supposed to be in loco parentis and thus have a duty to safeguard all the children in their care.

[Valheru]

You haven't been paying attention in class!

Baseball bats. :)

[Cath B]

Yes some kids will beat your ass when you hit them, but the vast majority will find easier "prey" that does not hit back.

Well that's OK then :rolleyes:

What is ok? I do not understand your response.

I mean it's not OK.

I don't see that if a particular child escapes from the clutches of a bully only for the said bully to pick on someone else that should be seen as problem solved.

[Matty]

it is for that kid.

its even more effective if a bunch of kids kick the living fuck out of the bully.

[Matty]

Bullying can be nasty and vindictive and damaging for the kid concerned, and a lot of what people are calling the knocks of growing up is just bullying re-labelled. It's only accepted behaviour for as long as society is prepared to accept it, and like a lot of things we would be better off outgrowing the acceptance of it. You think it would be a better world if people were forced to pretend to like or respect each other and only fuck each other up in sneaky underhanded ways?
Or are you going to actually mandate being nice to people? How you gonna do that?

From now on THIS is how the world shall be, or i'm calling the cops.
http://images.google.ca/url?source=imgres&ct=img&q=http://jenniferhr.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/rainbow1.jpg&usg=AFQjCNElAYCoiAo41AOPD7f7DtlFiZbRXA

Cos that shit isnt real and teaching your child that it is or ever can be is a lie, and teaching them that someone else will always sort their problems out for them is hardly a good thing in that context either. That all you need to do is go running to someone with a bigger [real or metaphorical] stick to fight your battles for them.

More to the point the second you make it all official YOU become the out of proportion aggressor. If the kids can sort it out themselves then its job done, if you steam in with threats of school boards and police cos your little angel got called names, you just made it official and pretty much ensured that

a) your kid is detested by the whole school for having such a prick of a father, NOT the desired effect i imagine.
b) the kid doing the "bullying" is thrown on the scrapheap at an as early an age as possible with black marks on their record that can have massive knock on effects for his or her whole life.

You method helps no one. Except you.

[JamesBannon]

This thread is pushing too many buttons for me, so I'll stay out of it for the most part. I have a question, though, for those of you who think counter-violence is "the answer". What happens when the bully is a parent or other authority figure? What happens when one's parent wakens one up in the middle of the night and proceeds to beat one senseless? This happens far more often than people are prepared to admit.

[Matty]

for sure, that isnt bullying as i see we were discussing, though it is obviously an extreme case of the same.

Thats an entirely different realm of scumbaggery, thats child abuse, comes with jail time if convicted and rightly so. I dont think anyone is defending that type of behaviour Jim, in fact i dont think anyone i defending any sorts of behaviour. My point is actually that by classing name calling as bullying along with more extreme physical cases (the far end of which you describe) you undermine or belittle the cases of people who are suffering in such a way.

[Celsus]

Holy crap, I really do hope those people proposing to try in-your-face resistance of a bully aren't serious. That is basically a high-risk strategy that could work but could also be extremely nasty if it fails and throw the kid into a far worse situation than when he/she began.

Bullies prey on those with weak self esteem, and it may well be an elaborate game of bluff, but there's also the chance that the bully really can beat the living daylights out of the kid and is looking for an excuse so he's not the one who throws the first punch. Kids need to raise their self-confidence in areas where they shine, and parental support is really important here: finding out what the kid likes doing, supporting them in it, and basically giving them a source of self-worth that doesn't derive from their peers alone and so their social networks won't collapse if they get humiliated by a bully.

[Matty]

That is basically a high-risk strategy that could work but could also be extremely nasty if it fails and throw the kid into a far worse situation than when he/she began.Its not an all or nothing. You hit them back when you have no other option than do so or take it. Is a slightly worse kicking than you were going to get anyway, a far worse response or is there a point the potential reward of not being picked on becomes worth hte risk? Is it worth the extra slap amongst a half dozen other in the scheme of things?

Take it, then run to daddy, have him speak to he school, and get the bully into counselling, is a laughable PC response and pretty much guaranteed to get you a kicking from the bully plus the disdain of a chunk more of your peers that never had an issue with you before. I'd say getting the folks and school involved, and fucking the bully over in an official capacity, is an almost sure fire way to make sure you get another beating and helps precisely no one except the school counsellor (such an idea is a joke anyway, we dont actually do that teenage therapy shit in the Uk these days do we? Tell me thats an American affection? )

[Celsus]

Depends on the kid though. It's not a blanket strategy - for a kid who's never punched anyone in anger, what if he embarasses himself when he tries? He'll be permanently remembered for that for (schooling) life. This isn't the Marty McFly version of reality.

[Alex]

This thread is pushing too many buttons for me, so I'll stay out of it for the most part. I have a question, though, for those of you who think counter-violence is "the answer". What happens when the bully is a parent or other authority figure? What happens when one's parent wakens one up in the middle of the night and proceeds to beat one senseless? This happens far more often than people are prepared to admit.

This goes way over the line of what might be described as "playground bullying" and becomes criminal violence of adults against children. There's no question that the police should always be informed about this sort of abuse - - if possible.

[Matty]

of course it depends on the kid. But the point isnt to actually beat the crap out of the bully (though its a total bonus when you do) , its to make you less fun to pick on than someone else.

Harsh?
Yeah.
Effective?
More so than a half dozen enforced after school anger management classes for the bully, i'll wager.

[Ray Moscow]

Didn't bullies pick on you guys when you were growing up and in school? I thought it was damn-near universal.

What did you do to cope? There are several different strategies that might work, but the worst (IMO) is just taking it.

I had my share of fights (though I don't remember starting any) and I didn't always win, but usually things sorted out after the (usually very minor) violence was over.

Like I said, sometimes the bullying is more serious and needs some adult intervention, but then people are often assholes, and that just how life is. I don't see any point in teaching kids to expect anything different.

Re James' point about adults "bullying" children: it's child abuse, and it should be prosecuted. There's not much a child can do against an adult except try to get some help from other adults.

[Alex]

Depends on the kid though. It's not a blanket strategy - for a kid who's never punched anyone in anger, what if he embarasses himself when he tries? He'll be permanently remembered for that for (schooling) life. This isn't the Marty McFly version of reality.
Since I advocated punching first, let me say only that it worked for me a couple of times. But there are too many risks involved to recommend it as a general strategy. You could end up beaten to a pulp.

Everything depends on the particular circumstances and sometimes it's impossible to get even with a bully. I don't think it's "cowardly" to ask for protection from a thug.

[Celsus]

I have to say I never really got bullied much in school. But I know a lot of dorky kids who did, and asking them to punch some of the bullies in my school who were connected with gangs outside and regularly got in street fights and much worse - well just bad bad bad advice.

[Alex]

I remember a youth attempting to bully me after I lost my job as an altar boy for fighting in the sacristy and setting the censer swinger's hair on fire with my candle. The kid whose hair caught fire had an elder brother who tried to "punish" me.

It seems a joke now, but it was no laughing matter at the time.

[dancer_rnb]

This thread is pushing too many buttons for me, so I'll stay out of it for the most part. I have a question, though, for those of you who think counter-violence is "the answer". What happens when the bully is a parent or other authority figure? What happens when one's parent wakens one up in the middle of the night and proceeds to beat one senseless? This happens far more often than people are prepared to admit.

This goes way over the line of what might be described as "playground bullying" and becomes criminal violence of adults against children. There's no question that the police should always be informed about this sort of abuse - - if possible.

That's what people think NOW. Wasn't so long ago that the attitude was similar to that taken to bullying.

[Matty]

:rolleyes:

[BioBeing]

I was bullied myself. mainly name calling: being called gay when you are an adolescent was not much fun, and limits your chances of (a) getting other male friends and (b) getting a girl friend. They would steal my stuff, break things. There was physical intimidation, but not much in the way of actual violence.

I only resorted to violence one time when one of them spat on me and I lost my temper. I hit the guy one time, and walked off. Just in time, as a teacher popped out of the room just then. Being expelled makes beating the bully a Pyrrhic victory, if you ask me.

My usual strategy was just to ignore the bullies. For the most part, this really gets their goat. How can they intimidate you if you are ignoring them? This only works for a certain sort of situation though. But it is the advice I give my kids. Don't rise to their bait. If they are calling you names, don't show them how much it hurts. If you bore them, they will often go away.

My life improved when they found out I was not all into book learning. I started running, and won some races for the school and got on the county team. Again though, that is not going to work in all situations.

[Pendaric]

Bullying can be nasty and vindictive and damaging for the kid concerned, and a lot of what people are calling the knocks of growing up is just bullying re-labelled. It's only accepted behaviour for as long as society is prepared to accept it, and like a lot of things we would be better off outgrowing the acceptance of it. You think it would be a better world if people were forced to pretend to like or respect each other and only fuck each other up in sneaky underhanded ways?
Or are you going to actually mandate being nice to people? How you gonna do that?

Mandating not assaulting people is not the same as mandating being nice to people.

Cos that shit isnt real and teaching your child that it is or ever can be is a lie, and teaching them that someone else will always sort their problems out for them is hardly a good thing in that context either. That all you need to do is go running to someone with a bigger [real or metaphorical] stick to fight your battles for them.

Teaching that violence is not the best way to sort out problems is more what I'm advocating.

More to the point the second you make it all official YOU become the out of proportion aggressor. If the kids can sort it out themselves then its job done, if you steam in with threats of school boards and police cos your little angel got called names, you just made it official and pretty much ensured that

a) your kid is detested by the whole school for having such a prick of a father, NOT the desired effect i imagine.
b) the kid doing the "bullying" is thrown on the scrapheap at an as early an age as possible with black marks on their record that can have massive knock on effects for his or her whole life.

You method helps no one. Except you.

Kids sorting it out by themselves more often than not means the kid being picked on having to endure it for years. It isn't a satisfactory solution, it's just what happens when the path of least resistance is followed.

I'm not talking about a reaction to a bit of name calling. I wouldn't tend to label that as bullying unless it were carried to extremes. I'm talking about a response to repetitive abusive behaviour. You obviously don't view it as a serious problem, but it can be.

There are plenty of reported instances of children committing suicide because they were the subjects of prolonged bullying. Is that a better outcome than a parent taking steps to put a stop to something?

http://www.bullyonline.org/schoolbully/cases.htm

In April 1998, Brian Franklish died whilst trying to escape the children bullying him.

Yorkshire: Twelve-year-old Debbie Shaw agrees to a challenge by other girls to end her bullying and victimisation by fighting the school bully. She died of her injuries.

Thirteen-year-old Roger Hillyard found dead near his home after a lifetime of bullying.

Sisters Samantha and Michaela Kendal are so taunted and bullied about their overweight they go on hunger strike ... both died.

Burton-upon-Trent: Fifteen-year-old choirboy Darren Steele is found hanged in his bedroom after a life of bullying and victimisation at school.

West Midlands: Twelve-year-old schoolboy Stephen Woodhall hanged himself with his brother's school tie rather than face bullying by the school bullies for another day. "He must have been going through hell," his father, Ken, said. Later, forty-seven-year-old Kenneth Woodhall also hanged himself. He had never got over the hanging suicide five years earlier of his son Stephen.

* In September 1997, 13-year-old Salvation Army girl Kelly Yeomans took a fatal overdose after months of tormenting and bullying. Her bullies were given a slap on the wrist.

Stephen Sandon, six, collapsed and died in terror of a bully pack almost a year to the day after the death of Joanna Canlin in the same tough schoolyard.

So, are these kids to blame for their own misfortunes because they couldn't get all Incredible Hulk on their tormentors?

Just because it's kids assaulting kids - and assault is what it commonly is - doesn't make it alright. Far from it.

[Matty]

Just because it's kids assaulting kids - and assault is what it commonly is - doesn't make it alright. Far from it. Who says it is. My point is that childhood is where you learn the correct way to interact with others, including assholes who hate you for no reason.

As for those cases, i hope they arent just sensationalist cases of emo kids, and are normalised against the number of people who got picked on more than once, sorted it out themselves, and turned out just fine?


Twelve-year-old schoolboy Stephen Woodhall hanged himself with his brother's school tie rather than face bullying by the school bullies for another day. "He must have been going through hell," his father, Ken, said. Later, forty-seven-year-old Kenneth Woodhall also hanged himself. He had never got over the hanging suicide five years earlier of his son Stephen.Riiight. It was the bullying. The bullying is why all the kids in that family top themselves. You think the bullying is the be all and end all of such cases as that?

you think that a perfectly normal well adjusted kid top themselves in a fit of teenage pique becasue they are picked on, or that maybe, just maybe the bullying (if it is even directly implicated) is simply the final straw.

[Politesse]

Adults are often complicit in "playground" bullying, too, I would note. Either by allowing it to happen or even by engaging in verbal bullying of the same children. Happened to me all the time, anyway, and I've heard such from others. So James' question is not off the wall. What do you for a child who is facing down more than just ten-year-olds? What about children who are being abused at school because they are being abused at home, something else that happens all the fucking time? Because that's who'll be left when your kids "learn to stick up for themselves". Or the weak ones who can't do the latter. Or the developmentally disabled. Or... whoever can't. A whipped cur is a whipped cur, and everyone wants in on the torment of those less fortunate than themselves.

I get that this whole "punch them back" mentality worked for some people, so they think it would be great for everyone. It isn't the case, and indeed it has a tendency to create more bullies as the excessive self-confidence you've trained your kiddos in gets turned against the less fortunate and you refuse to admit your own little tyke could also become a monster. The best of you lot became the mass of the blind, smugly self-confident enablers; having "solved" bullying yourselves, you calmly ignored the plight of others, allowing them to be tormented in your stead.

[Pendaric]

I think that kids can be driven to suicide by bullying. Maybe some have other problems as contributory factors, but I don't think you can remotely dismiss all incidences as such.

Some people can sort stuff out for themselves. That doesn't mean that those who can't should be abandoned to the wolves.

[Pendaric]

And in adult life, it really isn't common or normal to sort out situations by applying violence to them. Teaching children that the correct way to sort out a situation is to hit someone isn't preparing them for normal society.

Maybe I'm just a naive middle class wuss, but I've never had the need to hit anybody during my adult life, and I don't know many, if any, people where violence is a routine or indeed exceptional part of their daily life.

[Ray Moscow]

I ask again: how did you guys deal with bullying when you were growing up?

Didn't you have to face it?

[Ray Moscow]

Adults are often complicit in "playground" bullying, too, I would note. Either by allowing it to happen or even by engaging in verbal bullying of the same children. Happened to me all the time, anyway, and I've heard such from others. So James' question is not off the wall. What do you for a child who is facing down more than just ten-year-olds? What about children who are being abused at school because they are being abused at home, something else that happens all the fucking time? Because that's who'll be left when your kids "learn to stick up for themselves". Or the weak ones who can't do the latter. Or the developmentally disabled. Or... whoever can't. A whipped cur is a whipped cur, and everyone wants in on the torment of those less fortunate than themselves.

I get that this whole "punch them back" mentality worked for some people, so they think it would be great for everyone. It isn't the case, and indeed it has a tendency to create more bullies as the excessive self-confidence you've trained your kiddos in gets turned against the less fortunate and you refuse to admit your own little tyke could also become a monster. The best of you lot became the mass of the blind, smugly self-confident enablers; having "solved" bullying yourselves, you calmly ignored the plight of others, allowing them to be tormented in your stead.

And what's your solution, o self-righteous judge of us all?

[Bane]

When I was a kid, other kids hated my guts. The feeling became mutual eventually. I just became adept at hiding--never said anything because no-one took me seriously anyhow.

[Alex]

A whipped cur is a whipped cur, and everyone wants in on the torment of those less fortunate than themselves.

Everyone? No they don't.

[Ray Moscow]

A whipped cur is a whipped cur, and everyone wants in on the torment of those less fortunate than themselves.

Everyone? No they don't.

No, they don't.

I always detested bullies and their bullying. I hate those who prey on the weak, and seeing it is about the only thing that will make me mad enough to pick a fight, with the bully.

Although I probably shouldn't.

[Goldie]

I was raised in a different world than my son or granddaughter.
It has less to do with time period than where we were raised, I think.
My mom was from the downriver area of Detroit and that is where I was raised. People physically fought everyday. It was a part of life. My mother encouraged me to fight, if need be. (Note in my last post where my mom asked me why I hadn't kicked the other kid's ass. I was made to feel guilty when I had to confess that we were too even and I couldn't beat him.) I was not a bully, but a defender.

Now, my granddaughter's school has a very strict policy against bullying. They begin teaching the children in kindergarten. They encourage helpfullness and empathy. If someone is being bullied, the other children will gather around the child, telling the bully to stop, until a teacher comes. You really don't hear about bullying in her school.
I am amazed by it.

[dancer_rnb]

Having been fairly tall for my age most of my life, I generally stopped bullying rather than suffering it. Even when I was young I didn't see any reason to allow it to go on, if I could do something about it.

[Alex]

Few naturally self-effacing and gentle children are lucky enough to escape the attentions of bullies at school. Sometimes quick wits and a kind of animal cunning will help them to avoid being threatened or worse. But when "canniness" fails and they simply can't handle the risks of physical confrontation (with bullies), they surely need protection from the strong and/or the "authorities" etc.

I don't think any of us who have usually got the upper hand with bullies would deny that we ought to have looked out for others who were being persecuted. You'd have to put an adult's mind in a child's body for that to work out though.

[Matty]

The best of you lot became the mass of the blind, smugly self-confident enablers; having "solved" bullying yourselves, you calmly ignored the plight of others, allowing them to be tormented in your stead.damn striaght i did. You say it like self preservation is a bad thing.

No doubt you would have taken the beating and then asked for an extra in lieu of some other poor schmuck?

Or... whoever can't. A whipped cur is a whipped cur, and everyone wants in on the torment of those less fortunate than themselves.in on it? Nope. Not to be the subject of it? Fo Sho.

[Politesse]

And what's your solution, o self-righteous judge of us all?
There isn't one. People are vicious to each other, and each generation passes that viciousness on to the next.

[Matty]

lets not also forget that it is indeed contextual as well. Its not as simple as bully or bullied, many kids play the role of both at some point or another (especially if, for the sake of argument if not realism, aggressive taunting or taking the piss = bullying ).

[Goldie]

Adults are often complicit in "playground" bullying, too, I would note. Either by allowing it to happen or even by engaging in verbal bullying of the same children. Happened to me all the time, anyway, and I've heard such from others. So James' question is not off the wall. What do you for a child who is facing down more than just ten-year-olds? What about children who are being abused at school because they are being abused at home, something else that happens all the fucking time? Because that's who'll be left when your kids "learn to stick up for themselves". Or the weak ones who can't do the latter. Or the developmentally disabled. Or... whoever can't. A whipped cur is a whipped cur, and everyone wants in on the torment of those less fortunate than themselves.

I get that this whole "punch them back" mentality worked for some people, so they think it would be great for everyone. It isn't the case, and indeed it has a tendency to create more bullies as the excessive self-confidence you've trained your kiddos in gets turned against the less fortunate and you refuse to admit your own little tyke could also become a monster. The best of you lot became the mass of the blind, smugly self-confident enablers; having "solved" bullying yourselves, you calmly ignored the plight of others, allowing them to be tormented in your stead.

That wasn't true in my case. I was TINY...but had been taught to fight by living with 3 brothers and other bullies on my block.

I grew to defend my younger brother and other kids that were being bullied.
I didn't like fighting. I hated it. Oh, how I would have loved a day without it. There was a great deal on my shoulders all through grade school. As I grew older, others grew stronger and were better fighters than me and I learned to make friends with people who were bigger/older and who would defend me.

It's not right, but I hope it is getting better. I've never heard of a neighborhood worse than mine...short of E. LA.

So, no....I wasn't ignoring the plight of others... neither were most of my friends. I didn't hang with assholes.

[dancer_rnb]

lets not also forget that it is indeed contextual as well. Its not as simple as bully or bullied, many kids play the role of both at some point or another (especially if, for the sake of argument if not realism, aggressive taunting or taking the piss = bullying ).

I wouldn't be surprised if many really don't.

[JamesBannon]

And in adult life, it really isn't common or normal to sort out situations by applying violence to them. Teaching children that the correct way to sort out a situation is to hit someone isn't preparing them for normal society.

Maybe I'm just a naive middle class wuss, but I've never had the need to hit anybody during my adult life, and I don't know many, if any, people where violence is a routine or indeed exceptional part of their daily life.


You've been somewhat protected, Pendaric (and that's a good thing). When I was a youngster, violence was part of normal daily life, not only for me, but for just about everyone where I was brought up. Of course, being a geeky type, I tended to rather avoid conflict than confront it.

[BioBeing]

Now, my granddaughter's school has a very strict policy against bullying. They begin teaching the children in kindergarten. They encourage helpfullness and empathy. If someone is being bullied, the other children will gather around the child, telling the bully to stop, until a teacher comes. You really don't hear about bullying in her school.
I am amazed by it.

This sounds like a good approach. It will be interesting to see how it plays out as the children get older.

[David B]

Now, my granddaughter's school has a very strict policy against bullying. They begin teaching the children in kindergarten. They encourage helpfullness and empathy. If someone is being bullied, the other children will gather around the child, telling the bully to stop, until a teacher comes. You really don't hear about bullying in her school.
I am amazed by it.

This sounds like a good approach. It will be interesting to see how it plays out as the children get older.


Yes - and particularly as the kids start to compete for girl/boy friends, which is when a pecking order can really kick in. I think, anyway.

David

[Horrorfan]

Yes some kids will beat your ass when you hit them, but the vast majority will find easier "prey" that does not hit back.

Well that's OK then :rolleyes:

What is ok? I do not understand your response.

I mean it's not OK.

I don't see that if a particular child escapes from the clutches of a bully only for the said bully to pick on someone else that should be seen as problem solved.

I agree it is only problem solved, for the kid that stands up for himself. I think bullies have been around since man has been around so there is no fool proof system.

However being bullied when very young until my freshman year in High school, I found this extremely useful and was not picked on any longer once I fought back and showed I had full intentions of fighting when being bullied.

To this day I cannot stand bullies, and if I personally see it done in adults I will ask the bully to please pick on me............... I triple dog dare ya. :)

Usually they will respond with something along the lines of I have no problem with you. To which I reply you do now so leave the guy/girl alone. I have not once had a bully continue their practices at least not while I was around.

[Rie]

I know something about a bully in my life and that is that he is a coward.
I don't know if this is true for all bullies?

[The Naked Mage]

Baseball bats.

With nails in them.

[LoneWolf]

I ask again: how did you guys deal with bullying when you were growing up?

Didn't you have to face it?

I got bullied quite a bit. I was skinny, smart and wore big glasses. I would usually try to ignore them as long as I could. Eventually the stress would get to me and then I would beat the bully's face to a pulp. It worked every time. The bullying would stop until a new bully came along that didn't know I knew how to fight.

But I wouldn't say it prepared me for adulthood. What works as a kid doesn't work as an adult and vice versa.

[Bane]

When I was very little, I'd fight back, but as I got older, that had to stop, so I tried telling adults, but that didn't help......so I just learned to go where the more beastly children wouldn't--usually the library--or just never keep still during breaks.

Another interesting thing is that it was mostly boys who gave me trouble, until I was a teen. Then it was the girls, they were bitchy about my weight, nerdiness, and cluelessness regarding people.

I'd have to say that the nastiness of my peers has done me no good.

[Goldie]

Now, my granddaughter's school has a very strict policy against bullying. They begin teaching the children in kindergarten. They encourage helpfullness and empathy. If someone is being bullied, the other children will gather around the child, telling the bully to stop, until a teacher comes. You really don't hear about bullying in her school.
I am amazed by it.




This sounds like a good approach. It will be interesting to see how it plays out as the children get older.
Bumpy is in 2nd grade now, and I am at her school almost every day. I've yet to see a fight break out.

I do know that there IS bullying in at least one of the other grade schools in the district, so I am not sure how it will pan out when they are all attending the same Jr. High (Middle school).
We'll see.