Will the sky fall?

[DMB]

US Anglicans consecrate lesbian bishop. A double strike against her: she's a woman <shock! horror!> and she's homosexual. What an abomination in the eyes of a patriarchal god! One would have thought they might have found a black lesbian while they were at it, just to ruffle the maximum number of feathers!

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article7128036.ece

[Free in Freeport]

Too bad she isn't also jewish!

:p

[DMB]

Yes! Black, Jewish, lesbian!

Reminds me of that mind game where you got points for hypothetically running over different categories of pedestrians. IIRC maximum score was for a pregnant black nun pushing a pram. But I guess you could easily top that with a pregnant, black, Jewish lesbian bishop pushing a pram.

[Free in Freeport]

Seems to me there's some joke about 'when the KKK finds out god is a black jewish lesbian...."

[DMB]

Yes! Black, Jewish, lesbian!

Reminds me of that mind game where you got points for hypothetically running over different categories of pedestrians. IIRC maximum score was for a pregnant black nun pushing a pram. But I guess you could easily top that with a pregnant, black, Jewish lesbian bishop pushing a pram.

Umm, I forgot one-legged.

[Politesse]

The Anglican Church has been ordaining female bishops for the past twenty years, so never mind the patriarchy talk. The issue of contention is homosexuality.

[Clivedurdle]

Isn't there a fish on a bicycle somewhere?

[Roo St. Gallus]

Yes! Black, Jewish, lesbian!

Reminds me of that mind game where you got points for hypothetically running over different categories of pedestrians. IIRC maximum score was for a pregnant black nun pushing a pram. But I guess you could easily top that with a pregnant, black, Jewish lesbian bishop pushing a pram.

Umm, I forgot one-legged.


Yeah, crippled somehow.

Then it becomes a great lead-in for a tasteless James Watt joke.

[espritch]

nevermind.

[Aupmanyav]

IIRC maximum score was for a pregnant black nun pushing a pram.Who breathed into her?

[DMB]

Well, Politesse, there are still plenty of CofE priests who are ready to leave over woman bishops.

[Politesse]

Well, Politesse, there are still plenty of CofE priests who are ready to leave over woman bishops.

Yeah, but they're assholes. The rest of the world has moved on.

[Ray Moscow]

Well, Politesse, there are still plenty of CofE priests who are ready to leave over woman bishops.

Yeah, but they're assholes. The rest of the world has moved on.

Assholes, yes, but "the rest of the world" has not moved on very much. Most of it is still fundie on these issues.

Lots of Anglicans left the COE for the RCC when it started ordaining women as priests in the 1990's. Yes, in England.

[Politesse]

Their numbers weren't as many as all that, but yes, they did leave, and are leaving, and will probably continue to leave. And good riddance to them, because the churches of the Anglican communion can't afford to cling to medieval sexual mores. In England especially. Because there will be no Church of England in England in a few more decades if they continue to insist on social attitudes opposite to those of the nation where they reside. Fortunately, though conservatives still hold much sway, even in Britain they have not been the major deciding force in the last few decades. They will continue to give way until a reasonable mean is met. It's not like in America where church membership is perceived as more voluntary and conservative social values more ingrained in secular society. They will change, or disappear.

[Alex]

There's a tendency to muddle canon law with the moral law. Celibacy is a case in point; the Catholic church could revoke its traditional requirement that Holy Orders can only be conferred on celibates. In fact it already does so when an married Anglican clergyman is accepted for the Catholic priesthood. However, I don't think the RCC will ever "update" its position on women priests.

Some "medieval mores" don't refer to canon law: they are understood to be impervious to the mutability of social attitudes because they are part of an eternal moral truth which was, catholics believe, ordained by God.

[Politesse]

Nonsense. Canon law has changed many times. It will again. Hell, the restriction against female priests was an itself an alteration of early church practice, and a stupid one at that. At any rate, I said nothing about the RCC changing anything. Though a similar ultimatum hangs over their head, if it comes to that. If they don't also learn to adapt, sheer depopulation of the holy orders will do them in, to say nothing of public opinion.

[Alex]

You haven't understood a word that I posted.

I referred to an example of canon law being adapted in the case of Anglican clergy becoming Catholic priests. I made a distinction between canon law and the moral law - the former being mutable, the latter not.

Maybe you should stop bellowing "nonsense" at stuff you haven't read properly.

[Politesse]

I see. You're right that I misunderstood your gist in the above post, though your actual point is even less convincing, as at least canon law is theoretically codified. The perception of what constitutes moral law is even more fluid between the generations, and there's nothing to stop that perception from changing again.

[Alex]

What's unconvincing about the "actual point" that canon law is theoretically subject to revision or abrogation? I gave an instance of such being the case.

As far as even secular opinion is concerned, the fluidity of the moral law is moot. If you think that the entire corpus of moral law is merely a perception that changes between generations, you need to clarify the basis on which you believe the moral system of Christianity is founded.

[Haswell]

Canon law, seems on the face of it (and the latest RCC priest diddling episodes seem to bear it out) to be nothing but an attempt by church authorities to abrogate their responsibilities to the secular laws by which everyone else subjects themselves to. And as we have seen, its nothing more than a power struggle and an attempt to keep transgressors in house and away from public scrutiny. Fail.

Church of England - break the law and it doesnt get kept in house. You face the full justice of English law and this is the right way to run it.

So Canon law changes the goalposts every so often just to suit those who delude themselves into supposing it is an adequate judicial system. It aint.

You dont slap buggering priests on the wrist and transfer them to other hapless victims. You slap them in prison and throw away the key.

[Alex]

So Canon law changes the goalposts every so often just to suit those who delude themselves into supposing it is an adequate judicial system. It aint.


I think canon law is a bit more complicated than what happens to be an expediency of the hour. For starters it's supposed to originate in divine law and in natural law. If you have any information that sexual abuse (by the clergy) is condoned in either of those sources, perhaps you can divulge it.

[Haswell]

Where did I say sexual abuse was condoned by anyone let alone an in house judiciary?

[Alex]

Where did I say sexual abuse was condoned by anyone let alone an in house judiciary?

In that case why mention the "moving of goalposts" and link it to the behaviour of abusive priests?

The canon law is what governs a human institution that is supposed to discover and interpret the divine will. It also applies to liturgy, ceremony, administration of the clergy etc. Ecclesiastical regulations are not the same as the moral law: they can be revised, suspended, or even abolished from time to time.

A priest who breaks the moral law by committing a sin, cannot be absolved by any tinkering with the canon law. If he breaks the criminal law then secular punishment (in addition to defrocking) is necessary and appropriate. Who in their senses would argue otherwise?

The fact that some abusive clergy weren't denounced by the hierarchy isn't due to any failure in canon law or the moving of goalposts. It was a failure of moral responsibility in the bishops and cardinals who covered up the scandal.