What are the dumbest alternative medicines?

[David B]

There are so many, but I give you Bach Flower Remedies, as sold widely in Britain and Europe, and much of the rest of the world for all I know.

http://www.bachremedies.co.uk/

Dr Edward Bach was a Physician and Homeopath who spent his life searching for the purest methods of healing. Dr Bach discovered 38 remedies which he split into seven different groups and can be combined to suit the individual. The flower remedies are made from wild plants, trees and bushes. They work by treating the individual rather than the disease or its symptoms and are a gentle way to manage your emotions and rediscover the positive side of ourselves.

Each of the 38 Bach Original Flower Remedies is unique and helps to treat a different emotion....

Skepdic is sceptical.

http://www.skepdic.com/bachflower.html

Bach claimed to have psychically or intuitively discovered the healing effects of 38 wildflowers. His "discoveries" were arrived at by "inspirations." For example, while on a walk he had an inspiration that dew drops on a plant heated by the sun would absorb healing properties from the plant. He claimed that all he needed to do was hold a flower or taste a petal and he could intuitively grasp its healing powers. From these intuitions he went on to prepare "essences" using pure water and plants.

Bach claimed that these wildflowers have a soul or energy with an affinity to the human soul. The flower's spiritual energy is transferable to water.

Quackwatch is hardly encouraging, either

Bach flower therapy (Bach flower essence method, Bach flower essence system): Quasi-homeopathic system of pseudodiagnosis and pseudotherapy developed in the 1930s by British physician Edward Bach (1886-1936). Bach put forth his philosophy in Heal Thyself: An Explanation of the Real Cause and Cure of Disease, first published in 1931. Therein he described five "fundamental truths," in sum: (1) Souls, invincible and immortal sparks of the Almighty, are the "real," "Higher" selves of humans. (2) Humanity's purpose is to develop virtues and wipe out all intrapersonal wrongs. Souls know what circumstances conduce to the perfection of human nature. (3) One's lifetime is a minuscule part of one's evolution.

Bach held that disease was essentially beneficial and that its design was to subject the personality to the "Divine will" of the "Soul." Supposedly, he "psychically" discovered the specific "healing" effects of 38 wildflowers. The "life force" ("soul quality" or "energy wavelength") of each of these flowers allegedly is transferable to water and thence to humans. Each of the so-called Bach flower remedies is a liquid that supposedly contains a "soul quality" with an affinity to a human "soul quality"; and each vegetable "soul quality" allegedly harmonizes its human counterpart with the "Soul." The bases of classical "diagnosis" are conversation and intuition. Administration of the "remedies" is usually oral but may be external.

Dumb though the flower remedies are, I can't claim that they are the dumbest therapy around, and I look forward to others putting other candidates forward.

David B

[Free in Freeport]

Homeopathy!

The more you dilute something, the stronger it gets...water has memory, like cures like, etc.

Followed closely by quackopractic.

[Ray Moscow]

A US friend is taking "Himalayan sea salt" solution twice a day, because it's good for what ails you.

(It's so much better for you than normal salt.)

[David B]

A US friend is taking "Himalayan sea salt" solution twice a day, because it's good for what ails you.

(It's so much better for you than normal salt.)

What is the rationale (using the term loosely) for this, and who thought it up?

David

[hecaterin]

homeopathy ties with reiki

[PostMortem]

homeopathy ties with reiki

What exactly is reiki?

[David B]

What exactly is reiki?

Waving hands over people to make them better.

David

[Garnet]

How about wearing copper bracelets to reduce arthritis pain.

[Goldie]

Cranial Scaral therepy
Wiki link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craniosacral_therapy
Basically they have you lie down, put your feet together ansd hold them, then put their hands on your forehead, then wave a hand over youy crotch.
Worked wonders for me! Yea....right.

This was doctor recommended and insurance approved.
Unreal bunch of hooey!

[Goldie]

Magnets!
Crystals!

[David B]

How about wearing copper bracelets to reduce arthritis pain.

I don't think that's as dumb as some of the ones above, as it is possible, I think, to come up with some superficially plausible explanation of how it might work.

As in this site, which I'm not saying I agree with, but does seem to provide at least something of a rationale for not ruling it out.

http://www.sabona.com/copper

Studies have shown that some people with arthritis seem to have difficulty metabolizing copper from the food they eat, leading to increased pain. That observation led Helmar Dollwet, Ph.D., of the University of Akron to theorize that arthritis sufferers may need to get their copper from another source. "The dissolved copper from [a copper] bracelet bypasses the oral route by entering the body through the the skin," he wrote in his book, The Copper Bracelet and Arthritis. Dr. Dollwet thought this might be the only way arthritics ever receive the copper their bodies need-copper that studies have shown can indeed relieve pain.

David

[Garnet]

David, that site sells copper bracelets.

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1276/do-copper-bracelets-ease-pain

[David B]

Yes I know.

But it does at least provide a superficially plausible explanation of why it might work.

In contrast to Bach, other homeopathy, reiki et al.

David

[Garnet]

Most quackery has superfically plausible explanations.

[David B]

Most quackery has superfically plausible explanations.

Some more superficially plausible than others.

'The more you dilute something, the better it works' being a particularly weak one.

Unless its very weakness makes it stronger:D

David

[Garnet]

*grins* Regardless, superficially plausible ain't good enough.

[David B]

*grins* Regardless, superficially plausible ain't good enough.

I never claimed that it was!

Superficially plausible can still be dumb.

But not even superficially plausible is really dumb.

David

[Garnet]

I never claimed that it was!

Superficially plausible can still be dumb.

But not even superficially plausible is really dumb.

David

I agree.

[Joykins]

Homeopathy: boiled down, it says that water cures everything.

[Brianna]

Yeah. I am going to have to object.

None of these things are the cure all to cure all. None of them should EVER replace going to a medical doctor, but after checking with your medical doctor, what difference does it make?

Dumb is the wrong word.

Though I think that colon cleanses right up there with unhealthy and something I am skeptical of.

P.s. You aren't going to convince anyone of anything using the word dumb. Cause anything is dumb and to be honest that is just your opinion. Which comes across as arrogant and ignorant.

I suggest if you don't like a therapy, prove to me that it doesn't work with the science to back it up.

[dancer_rnb]

.....................
I suggest if you don't like a therapy, prove to me that it doesn't work with the science to back it up.

Not directed so much at you, Brianna, but my response a few years back would be show me it works before you try selling it to my desperate, stroke crippled mother, or my dad who was her primary caretaker.

If they only stuck with relieving aches and pains, it wouldn't be so bad. But when they start talking about
relieving the effects of a stroke......

[Brianna]

I do not like scams either.

My chiropractor who focuses on my muscle alignment and works just like a physical therapist, has a doctorate degree. Most Physical therapists have a bachelor degree at most. He doesn't try to sell me anything. He just aligns my back. He is covered by my insurance and physical therapy isn't. He helped me with a postural issue that I have been trying to correct for years, which allows me to sit up straight and not have chronic pain.

I give bach remedies to my cats one drop at a time when they are stressed. They like it and it seems to help. I wouldn't use it to treat anything specifically. my vet says it is fine.

Most medical doctors I know will advise you to wear copper jewelry to help with arthritis. If nothing else it looks pretty and turns your skin a nice shade of green.

Crystals are freaking cool to look at and magnets are so amusing I could play with them for hours. :)

Again, not interested in selling anyone a scam but ... these things aren't inheritantly dumb, people believing they cure everything aren't dumb either. They just maybe need some education and some comfort. :)

[David B]

Yeah. I am going to have to object.

None of these things are the cure all to cure all. None of them should EVER replace going to a medical doctor, but after checking with your medical doctor, what difference does it make?

What do you think?

I'd hazard a few guesses, myself.

There could be a placebo effect from taking something.

It could get the patient out of the doctor's office quicker by not arguing with them.

If someone is convinced about the value of something, and the doctor doesn't, arguing with the patient might damage the the doctor/patient relationship, or lead to the patient seeking another doctor.

It could damage the bank balance of the person taking the alternative therapy, to the benefit of the scam artist or true believer who sells it.

Dumb is the wrong word.

Seems to reflect my view adequately.

Though I think that colon cleanses right up there with unhealthy and something I am skeptical of.

What do you think is wrong with it? I've never looked into colons:D

P.s. You aren't going to convince anyone of anything using the word dumb. Cause anything is dumb and to be honest that is just your opinion. Which comes across as arrogant and ignorant.

Well it is my opinion. And it remains my opinion that the rationale of Bach was dumb.

Bach flower therapy is a type of homeopathic aromatherapy developed in the 1930s by British physician Edward Bach (1886-1936). Bach claimed to have psychically or intuitively discovered the healing effects of 38 wildflowers. His "discoveries" were arrived at by "inspirations." For example, while on a walk he had an inspiration that dew drops on a plant heated by the sun would absorb healing properties from the plant. He claimed that all he needed to do was hold a flower or taste a petal and he could intuitively grasp its healing powers. From these intuitions he went on to prepare "essences" using pure water and plants.

Bach claimed that these wildflowers have a soul or energy with an affinity to the human soul. The flower's spiritual energy is transferable to water. Devotees drink a homeopathic concoction of flower essence, mineral water and brandy in order to get the flower soul to harmonize their own soul's energy. According to Desde San Felipe y Santiago de Montevideo of Uruguay, flower remedies "do work." Bach thought that illness is the result of "a contradiction between the purposes of the soul and the personality's point of view." This internal war leads to negative moods and energy blocking, which causes a lack of "harmony" which leads to physical diseases. "Each of the 38 flowers of the Bach system is used to balance specific emotional pains or, in advanced stages of the lack of balance, to remit physical symptoms" [personal correspondence]. I have no idea what is meant by saying that this therapy "works," but I do not see how it could be tested since its main claims are metaphysical not empirical.

I suggest if you don't like a therapy, prove to me that it doesn't work with the science to back it up.

That isn't how proper medicine works. Proving a therapy does work, with the science to back it up, is better.

However

A recent database review of randomized trials concluded:

The hypothesis that flower remedies are associated with effects beyond a placebo response is not supported by data from rigorous clinical trials.[4]

All randomized double-blind studies, whether finding for or against the remedies, have suffered from small cohort sizes but the studies using the best methodology were the ones that found no effect over placebo.[23][24] The most likely means of action for flower remedies is as placebos, enhanced by introspection on the patient's emotional state, or simply being listened to by the practitioner. The act of selecting and taking a remedy may act as a calming ritual.

[Cath B]

The most likely means of action for flower remedies is as placebos, enhanced by introspection on the patient's emotional state, or simply being listened to by the practitioner. The act of selecting and taking a remedy may act as a calming ritual.

Certainly I find something inherently interesting and appealing about Bach's method of describing alleged internal states.

This, of course, is not to say there's anything of merit in it. :D

I'm a bit unclear about Bach remedies - are the doses of homoeopathic strength or a is there really something there?

[David B]

From what I gather the dose is not diluted as homeopathic remedies are, but there is not much there.

This agrees with what I've read in a few places.

http://www.hpathy.com/bachflower/bach-flower-prepare.asp

Looks raving mad to me:D

David

[Cath B]

Perhaps the brandy does the trick :D

[David B]

Perhaps the brandy does the trick :D

I'm reminded of the story of one of our ancestors taking Guinness by the spoonful for anaemia:D

David

[Ray Moscow]

What is the rationale (using the term loosely) for this, and who thought it up?

David

I didn't find the brochure she left us about it, but here's a similar website: http://www.himalayancrystals.com/

Her chiropractor (often a great source of woo) recommended this.

[Cath B]

I'm reminded of the story of one of our ancestors taking Guinness by the spoonful for anaemia

David

I thought I was the expert in family lore!

Who was that?

[David B]

I thought I was the expert in family lore!

Who was that?

I was hoping you could tell me. Great Grandmother on Mum's side, I think.

[BioBeing]

It used to be thought that Guinness had lots of iron in it, so it was often prescribed for anemia, and to pregnant mothers. I think it has since been found to not contain enough iron to do any good, unless you drink a couple of gallons. Which has negative effects in other areas...

My favourite dumb Complementary/Alternative Medicine (sCAM) is DNA activation (http://www.dnaperfection.com/). Dumb dumb dumb.

[David B]

It used to be thought that Guinness had lots of iron in it, so it was often prescribed for anemia, and to pregnant mothers. I think it has since been found to not contain enough iron to do any good, unless you drink a couple of gallons. Which has negative effects in other areas...

My favourite dumb Complementary/Alternative Medicine (sCAM) is DNA activation (http://www.dnaperfection.com/). Dumb dumb dumb.

Wow, only 400 bucks to get started.

So far, I think we have a winner, but let's give it some time.

David

[ofro]

Anybody up for urine therapy?

It's perfect: you can make your own medicine! Or share it with your family! Or sell it at a profit!

Perhaps there is something to topically treating acne, but I am not convinced.

And certainly drinking it is, in my mind, stoopider than homeopathic water, no matter how sterile urine is.

[Free in Freeport]

Oh COME ON!! Show me one reputable doctor who recommends copper for arthritis!

:rolleyes:

[Brianna]

I get stuck on the word dumb and don't think I can discuss it with out feeling like you are calling me dumb. Even though I am maybe skeptic of the alternative, I can do with out the conscending attitude.


What do you think?

I'd hazard a few guesses, myself.

There could be a placebo effect from taking something.

It could get the patient out of the doctor's office quicker by not arguing with them.

If someone is convinced about the value of something, and the doctor doesn't, arguing with the patient might damage the the doctor/patient relationship, or lead to the patient seeking another doctor.

It could damage the bank balance of the person taking the alternative therapy, to the benefit of the scam artist or true believer who sells it.



Seems to reflect my view adequately.



What do you think is wrong with it? I've never looked into colons:D



Well it is my opinion. And it remains my opinion that the rationale of Bach was dumb.





That isn't how proper medicine works. Proving a therapy does work, with the science to back it up, is better.

However

[Notta]

Japanese foot detox pads. (http://www.natural-foot-detox.com/)

I had the devil of a time convincing my husband they were nothing but woo.

[David B]

Japanese foot detox pads. (http://www.natural-foot-detox.com/)

I had the devil of a time convincing my husband they were nothing but woo.

Bloody hell!

Any idea what they are made of, and what the rationale for them working is?

David

[Notta]

Bloody hell!

Any idea what they are made of, and what the rationale for them working is?

David
Apparently they have green tea and charcoal in them. Heat and moisture makes the pads turn black & stinky. So, if you're wearing them on the soles of your feet all night long, you are guaranteed to create a moist, warm environment for them to 'work.'

[Moriah Conquering Wind]

OMG David, as soon as Moriah read the thread title, Bach Flower Remedies became the FIRST thing to spring to mind!!! :D

Reiki would be another, though not technically an alternative medicine, it bes its own kind of woo crackery, similar to aura fluffing and other assorted quasi-new-agey horsefeathers.

[Joykins]

It used to be thought that Guinness had lots of iron in it, so it was often prescribed for anemia, and to pregnant mothers. I think it has since been found to not contain enough iron to do any good, unless you drink a couple of gallons. Which has negative effects in other areas...

My favourite dumb Complementary/Alternative Medicine (sCAM) is DNA activation (http://www.dnaperfection.com/). Dumb dumb dumb.

Some beers (homebrews mostly) do have brewer's yeast still in them, which contains B vitamins (and some iron) which can act as a kind of galactagogue and used to be recommended for nursing mothers.

Fenugreek is apparently much better a galactagogue though. And most commercial beers have the yeast filtered out (don't know about Guinness, specifically).

[ofro]

Some beers (homebrews mostly) do have brewer's yeast still in them, which contains B vitamins (and some iron) which can act as a kind of galactagogue and used to be recommended for nursing mothers.

Fenugreek is apparently much better a galactagogue though. And most commercial beers have the yeast filtered out (don't know about Guinness, specifically).

Just about the only unfiltered beers nowadays are wheat beers (Weizen and perhaps some Belgian beers).

[BioBeing]

Mmmm homebrew. Think I'll go crack one. Of course, I leave the yeast in the bottom when I pour.

[Joykins]

Our days of home brew ended abruptly with parenthood. The days will probably return in time for one of them to be old enough to want to sneak in and illegally drink our homebrew.

[Ray Moscow]

It used to be thought that Guinness had lots of iron in it, so it was often prescribed for anemia, and to pregnant mothers. I think it has since been found to not contain enough iron to do any good, unless you drink a couple of gallons. Which has negative effects in other areas...

My favourite dumb Complementary/Alternative Medicine (sCAM) is DNA activation (http://www.dnaperfection.com/). Dumb dumb dumb.

Guinness apparently promoted the idea. One sees a lot of old posters like these:

http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/6817/10095916a7eguinnessfors.jpg

[BioBeing]

Our days of home brew ended abruptly with parenthood. The days will probably return in time for one of them to be old enough to want to sneak in and illegally drink our homebrew.

My kids are just old enough now that I can finally (almost) spare some time for a hobby of my own again! My youngest is 4. My oldest (9.5) likes to taste my hydro samples.

[DMB]

Guinness apparently promoted the idea. One sees a lot of old posters like these:

http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/6817/10095916a7eguinnessfors.jpg

Stout used to be prescribed by UK doctors for nursing mothers.

[Laton]

Homeopathy!

The more you dilute something, the stronger it gets...water has memory, like cures like, etc.

Followed closely by quackopractic.

I've always wondered why this "water memory" is just for "cures" and not, say, putting a drop of gasoline in a bucket of water and using that to re-fuel my car?

[Uthgar the Brazen]

Stout used to be prescribed by UK doctors for nursing mothers.

British children have been frail little weenies ever since this stopped.

[MrFungus420]

Most quackery has superfically plausible explanations.

Some more superficially plausible than others.

'The more you dilute something, the better it works' being a particularly weak one.

Unless its very weakness makes it stronger:D

David

There actually was a time, when homeopathy was new (late 1700s), that it was almost reasonable.

Considering that a fair number of the "medical cures" then would be likely to kill the patient, homeopathy probabably had at least as good a record.

I love Randi explaining homeopathy:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2785985155605802136&hl=en

[ofro]

On a trip to Washington D.C. two years ago I discovered (on Scott Circle, not just hidden away) a statue of Christian Friedrich Samuel Hahnemann, the founder of homeopathic medicine. Here he is:


http://farm1.static.flickr.com/104/306920837_239697f3cf.jpg

Too bad that the vitalistic ideas that drove his fairly thorough studies, led him down the wrong path. After all, he did have a few good ideas, too, for example about the infectiousness of some diseases, before Robert Koch and Louis Pasteur provided the final proof.

[Joykins]

There actually was a time, when homeopathy was new (late 1700s), that it was almost reasonable.

What, did they boil the water? First do no harm...

[Ray Moscow]

The allopaths of the day had wrongheaded and dangerous practices, like bloodletting. The homeopaths at least "did little harm" in comparison.

Things have of course moved on a bit in allopathy, aka "medicine".

[Hex]

And most commercial beers have the yeast filtered out (don't know about Guinness, specifically).

Guinness in Ireland is generally unfiltered. Anywhere else in the world (even the rest of the UK) is 'for export' and thus is filtered.

[reddhedd]

I swear I'm torn between those foot pad detoxers and reiki.

I paid for a reiki session for my husband, as an experiment. (of course I use him for the guinea pig!:evil:)

I had to walk away because I didn't want to hurt the chick's feelings by laughing at her openly.....She never touched him, just waved her hands over his prone body, from about a foot away, from his head to his feet, talking about how she could feel the energy, her hands were getting hot, and she could feel blockages in his energy and so on and so forth.
After about 20 minutes, my husband got up and she said "So, how do you feel?" He said he never felt anything...she expressed shock and surprise, because she felt "it" so strongly. :rolling:

I laughed for days, and still get a chuckle out of it!

I was amazed when a dear friend told me she is a reiki master and can help my scoliosis. No...REALLY? You're gonna wave your hands at me and my hips will suddenly be even with each other?
I don't say anything, because she is SOOO sincere, but WTF?:dunno:

[Free in Freeport]

Ear-Candling.

Anti-vaxers

Chelating for autism

[Free in Freeport]

This isn't exactly medicine, but anal bleaching is pretty stupid!

[David B]

Ear-Candling.

Anti-vaxers

Chelating for autism

The first two I'm familiar enough with to have them on the short list.

Chelating?

WTF is that?

David

[Notta]

This isn't exactly medicine, but anal bleaching is pretty stupid!
I read about that, and all I could think was "OW!!!"

[Notta]

Ear-Candling.

Anti-vaxers

Chelating for autism

The first two I'm familiar enough with to have them on the short list.

Chelating?

Chelation therapy: sounds good in theory; in practice, it kills people.

[Garnet]

Anal bleaching? I thought that was a joke. People really do that???

I...uhh.......dayum.

[Brianna]

Ear-Candling.

Anti-vaxers

Chelating for autism

The first two I'm familiar enough with to have them on the short list.

Chelating?

Chelation therapy: sounds good in theory; in practice, it kills people.

I guess no one should be exposed to heavy metals then. :dunno:

[BioBeing]

Chelating for autism.

I have a friend on chelation therapy for Wilson's Disease (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilson%27s_disease). It is NOT something that should be taken lightly, or used for random diseases, just because. Medicine should be used responsibly. sCAM practitioners do not do this.

[Brianna]

I agree that it probably doesn't help autism cases. It still looks pretty deadly.

There is a low occurrence of side effects when chelation is used at the dose and infusion rates approved by the U.S. FDA as a treatment for heavy metal poisoning. A burning sensation at the site of delivery into the vein is common. Rarer side effects include fever, headache, nausea, stomach upset, vomiting, bone marrow depression (dropping blood cell counts), a drop in blood pressure, and hypocalcemia. Kidney toxicity is a safety concern, but a rare occurrence.[2]

When EDTA is not administered by a health professional for the treatment of heavy metal poisoning more serious side effects can occur.[2]

Chelation therapy can be hazardous, even conducted with the FDA-approved chelation agents. In August 2005, botched chelation therapy conducted by an ACAM member killed a 5-year-old autistic boy,[14] a 3-year-old nonautistic girl died in February 2005, and a nonautistic adult died in August 2003. These deaths were due to cardiac arrest caused by hypocalcemia during chelation therapy.[30] Only the 3-year-old girl had been medically assessed and found to have a elevated blood lead level and resulting low iron levels and anemia, a proper medical cause for chelation therapy to be conducted.[31]

More than 30 deaths have been recorded in association with IV-administered disodium EDTA since the 1970s.[14]

the [14] reference http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pmcentrez&artid=2438277 - I believe this study is actually looking at heart disease.

[David B]

Ear-Candling.

Anti-vaxers

Chelating for autism

The first two I'm familiar enough with to have them on the short list.

Chelating?

Chelation therapy: sounds good in theory; in practice, it kills people.

Wow! I gather from wiki that it is a reasonable thing to try if people are known to be suffering from heavy metal poisoning, but it's a damfool and dangerous thing to try because some quackery tells you that autism is caused bu mercury poisoning.

David

[Brianna]

The first two I'm familiar enough with to have them on the short list.

Chelating?

Chelation therapy: sounds good in theory; in practice, it kills people.

Wow! I gather from wiki that it is a reasonable thing to try if people are known to be suffering from heavy metal poisoning, but it's a damfool and dangerous thing to try because some quackery tells you that autism is caused bu mercury poisoning.

David

Actually if you read the stats, more people have died from it are NOT autistic. And the people that have given out the drugs are FDA approved to give the drugs. So... though I think it is an unreasonable way to treat autism...

[Free in Freeport]

Anal bleaching? I thought that was a joke. People really do that???

I...uhh.......dayum.

Here's a youtube on the subject

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhyNZDGs228

[Garnet]

I am soooooo not clicking on that link.

[Free in Freeport]

Betcha will!

;)

[Garnet]

Nuh uh!

[dancer_rnb]

Chelation therapy: sounds good in theory; in practice, it kills people.

Wow! I gather from wiki that it is a reasonable thing to try if people are known to be suffering from heavy metal poisoning, but it's a damfool and dangerous thing to try because some quackery tells you that autism is caused bu mercury poisoning.

David

Actually if you read the stats, more people have died from it are NOT autistic. And the people that have given out the drugs are FDA approved to give the drugs. So... though I think it is an unreasonable way to treat autism...

So hopefully no one is claiming it can't be dangerous. ;)

[dancer_rnb]

I swear I'm torn between those foot pad detoxers and reiki.

I paid for a reiki session for my husband, as an experiment. (of course I use him for the guinea pig!:evil:)

I had to walk away because I didn't want to hurt the chick's feelings by laughing at her openly.....She never touched him, just waved her hands over his prone body, from about a foot away, from his head to his feet, talking about how she could feel the energy, her hands were getting hot, and she could feel blockages in his energy and so on and so forth.
After about 20 minutes, my husband got up and she said "So, how do you feel?" He said he never felt anything...she expressed shock and surprise, because she felt "it" so strongly. :rolling:

I laughed for days, and still get a chuckle out of it!

I was amazed when a dear friend told me she is a reiki master and can help my scoliosis. No...REALLY? You're gonna wave your hands at me and my hips will suddenly be even with each other?
I don't say anything, because she is SOOO sincere, but WTF?:dunno:

Is this related to healing touch?

[David B]

I swear I'm torn between those foot pad detoxers and reiki.

I paid for a reiki session for my husband, as an experiment. (of course I use him for the guinea pig!:evil:)

I had to walk away because I didn't want to hurt the chick's feelings by laughing at her openly.....She never touched him, just waved her hands over his prone body, from about a foot away, from his head to his feet, talking about how she could feel the energy, her hands were getting hot, and she could feel blockages in his energy and so on and so forth.
After about 20 minutes, my husband got up and she said "So, how do you feel?" He said he never felt anything...she expressed shock and surprise, because she felt "it" so strongly. :rolling:

I laughed for days, and still get a chuckle out of it!

I was amazed when a dear friend told me she is a reiki master and can help my scoliosis. No...REALLY? You're gonna wave your hands at me and my hips will suddenly be even with each other?
I don't say anything, because she is SOOO sincere, but WTF?:dunno:

Is this related to healing touch?

Yes and no, I think.

My opinion is that it is related insofar as it makes some people feel better in the short term because it is suggested to them that they will feel better in a situation of some ritual, and some people are more suggestible than others.

As does healing touch.

But healing touch actually involves touching, and I read something I found plausible somewhere (wish I could remember where) that suggested that touch has some physiological effect involving endorphins or something.

I don't, therefore, think that healing touch is quite as dumb as waving hands over people, it the aim is to do anything other than basically hypnotise the patient.

David

[Brianna]

Wow! I gather from wiki that it is a reasonable thing to try if people are known to be suffering from heavy metal poisoning, but it's a damfool and dangerous thing to try because some quackery tells you that autism is caused bu mercury poisoning.

David

Actually if you read the stats, more people have died from it are NOT autistic. And the people that have given out the drugs are FDA approved to give the drugs. So... though I think it is an unreasonable way to treat autism...

So hopefully no one is claiming it can't be dangerous. ;)

Yeah, I definitely got the impression someone was cherry picking the results.

[Brianna]

I swear I'm torn between those foot pad detoxers and reiki.

I paid for a reiki session for my husband, as an experiment. (of course I use him for the guinea pig!:evil:)

I had to walk away because I didn't want to hurt the chick's feelings by laughing at her openly.....She never touched him, just waved her hands over his prone body, from about a foot away, from his head to his feet, talking about how she could feel the energy, her hands were getting hot, and she could feel blockages in his energy and so on and so forth.
After about 20 minutes, my husband got up and she said "So, how do you feel?" He said he never felt anything...she expressed shock and surprise, because she felt "it" so strongly. :rolling:

I laughed for days, and still get a chuckle out of it!

I was amazed when a dear friend told me she is a reiki master and can help my scoliosis. No...REALLY? You're gonna wave your hands at me and my hips will suddenly be even with each other?
I don't say anything, because she is SOOO sincere, but WTF?:dunno:

Is this related to healing touch?

Yes and no, I think.

My opinion is that it is related insofar as it makes some people feel better in the short term because it is suggested to them that they will feel better in a situation of some ritual, and some people are more suggestible than others.

As does healing touch.

But healing touch actually involves touching, and I read something I found plausible somewhere (wish I could remember where) that suggested that touch has some physiological effect involving endorphins or something.

I don't, therefore, think that healing touch is quite as dumb as waving hands over people, it the aim is to do anything other than basically hypnotise the patient.

David

It is the same concept. Only in healing touch, it involves touch.

[Notta]

Chelation therapy: sounds good in theory; in practice, it kills people.

Wow! I gather from wiki that it is a reasonable thing to try if people are known to be suffering from heavy metal poisoning, but it's a damfool and dangerous thing to try because some quackery tells you that autism is caused bu mercury poisoning.

David
It's been tried for everything from heart failure to ADD/ADHD. Extremely few people suffer from heavy metal poisoning; it shouldn't be used for anything but that.

[Notta]

Did you ever hear about the high school girl who studied whether people could actually see auras?

She questioned those who claimed to see colored auras around people as to whether the aura extended outwards from the body in all directions. The 'aura seers' said, "Yes." She asked if the auras extended above the head. Again, the answer was "Yes."

So she set up a simple experiment where people stood behind a screen that came exactly to the tops of their heads, and had them walk back & forth behind the screen. She asked the 'aura seers' to tell her where the person was standing and what color the aura was.

Her results showed that the 'aura seers' had answers that more or less were random. None of them could accurately and consistently tell where the person behind the screen was standing (remember -- the aura, if seen, should have pinpointed the person's location), and different people reported differently colored auras for the same person.

It reminded me of the Amazing Randi's experiment with dowsers -- he put bottles (or buckets) of water under random cardboard boxes and asked them to identify which boxes had water underneath them. Again, the results were similar to chance and random guessing. None of his professional dowsers could give accurate answers.

[Brianna]

Chelation therapy: sounds good in theory; in practice, it kills people.

Wow! I gather from wiki that it is a reasonable thing to try if people are known to be suffering from heavy metal poisoning, but it's a damfool and dangerous thing to try because some quackery tells you that autism is caused bu mercury poisoning.

David
It's been tried for everything from heart failure to ADD/ADHD. Extremely few people suffer from heavy metal poisoning; it shouldn't be used for anything but that.

Oh so the scientists that are doing a study about it are quacks? did you read the the links?

I am again not saying it is a good treatment for anything. I tend to agree with you, Notta. I am just thinking this looks like cherry picking.

[Free in Freeport]

Wow! I gather from wiki that it is a reasonable thing to try if people are known to be suffering from heavy metal poisoning, but it's a damfool and dangerous thing to try because some quackery tells you that autism is caused bu mercury poisoning.

David
It's been tried for everything from heart failure to ADD/ADHD. Extremely few people suffer from heavy metal poisoning; it shouldn't be used for anything but that.

Oh so the scientists that are doing a study about it are quacks? did you read the the links?

Scientific study is the route by which "cures" are vetted, or shown to be quackery. To continue to give chelating agents to persons who don't have heavy metal poisoning, after it's been shown to be highly dangerous, is indeed quackery of the worst sort.

[dancer_rnb]

It's been tried for everything from heart failure to ADD/ADHD. Extremely few people suffer from heavy metal poisoning; it shouldn't be used for anything but that.

Oh so the scientists that are doing a study about it are quacks? did you read the the links?

Scientific study is the route by which "cures" are vetted, or shown to be quackery. To continue to give chelating agents to persons who don't have heavy metal poisoning, after it's been shown to be highly dangerous, is indeed quackery of the worst sort.

I'm not sure I'd call it quackery. Just pretty unethical.
Generally, if a drug by a pharmaceutical company is shown to be dangerous, it won't be marketed, and if it already on the market, is often pulled of the market. I had that happen with a diabetes medication, Rezulin, that was working well for me. Really angered me. Why should chelation be treated any different?

[dancer_rnb]

Now that I think about it, I really hate the fuckers responsible for pulling Rezulin off the market. Those jerks have really screwed me over. I wish there was a hell they could go to. :bang::bang::bang::bang::bang:

[Brianna]

Oh so the scientists that are doing a study about it are quacks? did you read the the links?

Scientific study is the route by which "cures" are vetted, or shown to be quackery. To continue to give chelating agents to persons who don't have heavy metal poisoning, after it's been shown to be highly dangerous, is indeed quackery of the worst sort.

I'm not sure I'd call it quackery. Just pretty unethical.
Generally, if a drug by a pharmaceutical company is shown to be dangerous, it won't be marketed, and if it already on the market, is often pulled of the market. I had that happen with a diabetes medication, Rezulin, that was working well for me. Really angered me. Why should chelation be treated any different?

They do drug testing and trials on all sorts of animals and treatments and drugs. It isn't quackery if it is performed in a clinical trial or by a medical professional, in experiment trials. I again state that I don't agree with it being used in any form by unlicensed people but morals and ethics are a completely different matter.

[ofro]

Now that I think about it, I really hate the fuckers responsible for pulling Rezulin off the market. Those jerks have really screwed me over. I wish there was a hell they could go to. :bang::bang::bang::bang::bang:

The problem with Rezulin was that it caused liver damage in too many people. In addition, there are two drugs, Avandia and Actos, that appear to be equally efficient but not toxic. The sad thing is that, on an individual level, this may be the wonder drug, but the manufacturer (and the FDA) must be concerned about the general population, and this is where the statistical evaluation of a drug's safety comes in.

[Free in Freeport]

Scientific study is the route by which "cures" are vetted, or shown to be quackery. To continue to give chelating agents to persons who don't have heavy metal poisoning, after it's been shown to be highly dangerous, is indeed quackery of the worst sort.

I'm not sure I'd call it quackery. Just pretty unethical.
Generally, if a drug by a pharmaceutical company is shown to be dangerous, it won't be marketed, and if it already on the market, is often pulled of the market. I had that happen with a diabetes medication, Rezulin, that was working well for me. Really angered me. Why should chelation be treated any different?

They do drug testing and trials on all sorts of animals and treatments and drugs. It isn't quackery if it is performed in a clinical trial or by a medical professional, in experiment trials. I again state that I don't agree with it being used in any form by unlicensed people but morals and ethics are a completely different matter.

Where are clinical trials being conducted by unlicensed people?

[Ray Moscow]

Now that I think about it, I really hate the fuckers responsible for pulling Rezulin off the market. Those jerks have really screwed me over. I wish there was a hell they could go to. :bang::bang::bang::bang::bang:

The problem with Rezulin was that it caused liver damage in too many people. In addition, there are two drugs, Avandia and Actos, that appear to be equally efficient but not toxic. The sad thing is that, on an individual level, this may be the wonder drug, but the manufacturer (and the FDA) must be concerned about the general population, and this is where the statistical evaluation of a drug's safety comes in.

Unless the toxicity is really high, drugs often do not show their problems until they've been in general use for some years because of the limited data in the qualifying trials. Hence the recalls.

Unfortunately this one suited you, dancer.

[dancer_rnb]

Now that I think about it, I really hate the fuckers responsible for pulling Rezulin off the market. Those jerks have really screwed me over. I wish there was a hell they could go to. :bang::bang::bang::bang::bang:

The problem with Rezulin was that it caused liver damage in too many people. In addition, there are two drugs, Avandia and Actos, that appear to be equally efficient but not toxic. The sad thing is that, on an individual level, this may be the wonder drug, but the manufacturer (and the FDA) must be concerned about the general population, and this is where the statistical evaluation of a drug's safety comes in.

I guess I'll have to dig up the reports. While on Rezulin, I did ask my doctor about reports of liver toxicity, and he said it occurred in people who did not get adequate liver monitoring when starting out on the drug. He didn't pull me off Rezulin.
My current doctor pulled me off Avandia because of the reports of a connection with heart problems. Also, Byetta, which I am now taking is known to cause pancreatitis is some cases. I hope that isn't pulled.
Or that I don't have to stop taking it because of pancreatitis. Now, every time I feel discomfort in my stomach area........

Plus I also wonder how much of the decision was based on science and how much based on politics: shutting up the critics. It is a question that I think needs to be asked.

[Zebulon]

The Dungan light.

http://www.dowsers.info/toronto/dec2006.htm

Scroll down to "SECOND NUGGET: Ted Dungan".

I actually met this guy back in '91 or '92. His "treatment" never got very far outside of obscure circles, but it always struck me as the ultimate example of woooo! quackery.

[dancer_rnb]

Anyone see Jenny McCarthy Body Count?
Found a link over at Respectful Insolence.

http://www.jennymccarthybodycount.com/Jenny_McCarthy_Body_Count/Home.html

[ninewands]

http://www2.egr.uh.edu/~cwilkin3/jpg.jpg

So.

Delicious.

but.

Way.

Too.

Rich!


</Shattner_voice>

[Utu]

I was given a whacky test one time by the owner of a health food store.

I don't know what it's called but . . . Trying to measure the level of hydrochloric acid in my stomach by telling me to make a loose fist and that she would try to open my fist wider. This seemed suspicious to me. What does the ease of which my hand opens have to do with my stomach acid? It seemed doubtful one had anything to do with the other. Was suggestibility playing a role in thinking these do had anything to do with one another? I was curious what would happen if I asserted my independence by refusing to open my fist. Ergo, I put up quite the fight. Stifled chuckles on my part accompanied the events that unfolded next. She valiantly tried to pry my fingers apart, while I countered by clutching my fingers together as hard as I could. She stood there, arms shaking. I concentrated, heat swelling on my temples. I could feel sweat beginning to form. Until, finally: victory! After tugging on my fingers to no end, she gave up and concluded that the levels must be low. :rolleyes:

Yeah right. Hadn't she seen any martial arts movies? Clearly, it was that my Kung Fu was superior.

After that, she had a spiel replete with a mish-mash of scientific and pseudoscientific concepts, technobabble, and misapplied reductionism. I couldn't really tell you what she said as I was only listening politely, biding my time before I could make my exit. I think she might have realized I was laughing at her. I feel kind of bad about that. She [I]was only trying to help, after all. She may be wrong, but she doesn't deserve to have her feelings hurt. I could have adopted a blank stare and nodded quietly, but the thought of her futilely pulling on my fingers and me clutching them together in a Herculean contest of wills. Too damn funny. Fortunately for me this quackery was benign and didn't harm me. Although, it did give me a good story to tell. Maybe it actually benefited me. :D

Some time later I was able to find a page on the internet that explained the supposed basis of the fist pull, and it was, predictably, woo gobbledygook. I tried to find that page or a similar one so you all could revel in the absurdity, but I failed.

So check this out instead...
One method used to find out if you have a stomach acid insufficiency is to look at your fingernails or toe nails and see if there are vertical ridges or lines. If the lines are strong, then there is not only a stomach acid lack but also the body is too acidic with respect to the acid/alkaline balance.

But further reading on Quackwatch makes me think it, indeed, was AK.
Some people who undergo AK muscle-testing report that although they resisted as hard as they could, the practitioner was still able to pull down their arm. Differences from one test to another may be due to suggestibility; variations in the amount of force, leverage, or follow-through involved; and/or muscle fatigue. Distraction can also play a role. (Touching another part of the body just before pulling down the arm may cause the patient to focus less on resisting.) But trickery (deliberate or unconscious) may also be a factor. A sudden slight upward movement can cause a "set" muscle to relax so that it can be immediately pulled downward. I have found that when this is done quickly, the person being tested is unlikely to detect the upward motion. Try this on a friend.
Funnily enough, that is exactly what I thought when she was trying it on me. That if my attention wavered or I let up for even a bit, she would open my fist and I don't know what would happen then. She would confirm whatever she thought I had to begin with. Did that mean I had "leaky gut?" Did that mean I was healthy? I had to find out!

Me:
http://www.dbz-infinite.50megs.com/images/dbzcellsaga5.jpg

Her:
http://bond64kg.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/bye_bye_frieza.jpg

Pictured above: health food lady the instant my ki overwhelmed her.

She tried the same test on another person in the health food store and got her hand opened. I suspected she would. It took quite a bit of attention to keep my fingers together. The test on the other person confirmed that other person was normal. But my contrarianism was a sign something was wrong with me. Health food lady didn't say that, but that's essentially what it came down to. Other person, suggestible/distractible, opened her fist = normal; me, concentrated, exerting myself fully to keep my fingers together = low gut acid. That's sound clinical medicine, my friends.

And alternative medicine enthusiasts wonder why people don't take them seriously. I came across a website while searching for AK that offered alternative medicine health advice, and proposed conspiracy theories about the FDA and health organizations trying to hide natural cures from the public.

It makes sense in a way for alternative medicine enthusiasts to perceive a conspiracy against them for why no one accepts their views and for why people speak out against them. Unfortunately, they rarely consider the reason being that they themselves are simply mistaken.

Oh well.

Applied Kinesiology: Phony Muscle-Testing for "Allergies" and "Nutrient Deficiencies"

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/Tests/ak.html

I'll see you in HEALTH!

Disclaimer: No health food ladies or recipients of their care were harmed in the making of this post.

[ninewands]

So many choices, so little time ...

I guess I'll go with the apparent consensus of homeopathy with the Bach flowers as a sort of extreme subset of it.

[Matty]

What exactly is reiki?

Waving hands over people to make them better.

David

beautiful summation. :D

Magnotherapy must be the most retarded though its a tough call.
I love asking the hippy at the ubiquitous mall Magnotherapy stalls about the science behind the therapy.

"Magnifies the iron in the blood" is a common one, though how that is supposed to be beneficial they are often at a loss to expand on. And no you cant just sit near your big floor standing speakers becasue its a "different type of magnetism"

Angel Healing Reiki, whereby the practitioner cant be arsed to wave their own hands so ask an angel to do it to you whilst you are asleep.

In fact here, take your pick. This dizzy bint does the lot.
http://www.daisycentres.com/retreat_therapies.aspx


All of the advanced healing techniques Daisy uses can help emotional and physical issues by releasing fears and karmic blockages. On all levels this is a complete therapy session for mind, body & soul. Whether the illness or disease is in the early stages, minor, chronic or acute, VortexHealingฎ gets to the core root and has quite outstanding results. testimonies of Daisy’s work, amongst the many satisfied clients are those with Cancer, Psoriasis, Ovarian cysts, Fertility Problems, Post Natal Depression, ME, Weight problems, Bereavement, Divorce Issues, Broken Bones and Sports Injuries, Smoking , Drug and Chocolate Addictions and many more. Sometimes you just don’t feel right and want to feel better, this is the time to let Daisy “perk up your petals” and help you to “heal from the inside out”
Look, Vortex healing cures cancer AND divorce issues.
I once had a "discussion" with one of her practitioners, her in house Gong Therapist who happens to be a friend of a friend. Thats anoher beaut come to think of it. Thinking it all through though. homoeopathy must get some significant clout for being the most established, and one of the older brands of highly believed bullshit, and ALL becasue hanemhman invented it to fleece those who were scared of non anaesthetised inexpert surgery. Smart man.

[Sock Puppet]

I think I can beat homeopathy 'n' such.

When my wife and I were dating about 17 years ago or so, one of her brothers was diagnosed with stomach cancer. He lives in Mexico and isn't rich, and thus didn't get the best of care. However, the family scraped together enough cash to take him to Guadalajara to see a "specialist doctor" who reportedly had great success with cancer patients. My then-fiancee drove from Northern California to Mexicali so he would have someone to fly with him to Guadalajara.

Seriously, we both thought she was taking him to a doctor.

The "specialist" met with them, and prescribed her therapy. He was to fill each of several jars, all of different colors, with water, and leave them in the sun for a specified amount of time. Then drink the water from each jar in a particular order. If he kept this up for a couple of months, it would bring his cancer into remission.

That was the entire treatment.

Said brother is still alive, btw. He probably thinks that it worked.

AND WHO'S TO SAY IT DIDN'T, SMART GUY?

[ofro]

Were the different-colored liquids different kinds of beer? Because then I might understand the rationale behind the treatment.

[Free in Freeport]

Has anyone mentioned prayer? That's pretty damned worthless.

[Sodong]

Were the different-colored liquids different kinds of beer? Because then I might understand the rationale behind the treatment.Maybe tequila. It was Mexico after all. :)

[Sodong]

Hey Matty, the only thing Daisy's remedy doesn't cure apparently, is chronic gullibility.

[Garrett]

I get stuck on the word dumb and don't think I can discuss it with out feeling like you are calling me dumb. Even though I am maybe skeptic of the alternative, I can do with out the conscending attitude.

I felt something similar, just based on the thread title. This isn't a thread about science and skepticism - it's a thread about mocking. Fuck that.

A goddamn sugar pill can have physical effects against diseases sometimes.

[Garrett]

Homeopathy!

The more you dilute something, the stronger it gets...water has memory, like cures like, etc.

I don't care much about the subject, but it seems to me that's a distortion. (I don't mean that you cause the distortion - quacks have definitely been cashing in and they have caused it.) The basic premise of homeopathy isn't that the more you dilute something the stronger it gets - according to Wikipedia Homeopathy is a form of alternative medicine that treats a disease with heavily diluted preparations created from substances that would ordinarily cause effects similar to the disease's symptoms.

Vaccines, for example?

[ofro]

Homeopathy!

The more you dilute something, the stronger it gets...water has memory, like cures like, etc.

I don't care much about the subject, but it seems to me that's a distortion. (I don't mean that you cause the distortion - quacks have definitely been cashing in and they have caused it.) The basic premise of homeopathy isn't that the more you dilute something the stronger it gets - according to Wikipedia Homeopathy is a form of alternative medicine that treats a disease with heavily diluted preparations created from substances that would ordinarily cause effects similar to the disease's symptoms.

Vaccines, for example?

I am afraid that's not a distortion at all. Wiki is very diplomatic in its description when it refers to heavily diluted preparations. In fact, homeopathic dilutions are so extensive that statistically there is not a single molecule left of that substance. You can easily calculate that. In other words, you really only get water and whatever inactive filler has been added to the water.

A vaccine always contains enough of the agent so that the immune system recognizes and produces antibodies to it.

[Garrett]

Well, according to NCCAM (http://nccam.nih.gov/health/homeopathy/#q5) Many homeopathic remedies are so highly diluted that not one molecule of the original natural substance remains. So some of the remedies are not that highly diluted. Maybe some of those function not unlike vaccines, boosting or priming the natural immune system or something.

And for the rest, those remedies with "not one molecule of the original natural substance", I see no reason to think they can't function like an elaborate sugar pill.

[Coragyps]

And for the rest, those remedies with "not one molecule of the original natural substance", I see no reason to think they can't function like an elaborate sugar pill.

Thereby risking the health or life of the folks that use them when they have a condition that demands real medicine.

[Garrett]

Who said homepathy should replace mainstream medicine?

[ofro]

Well, according to NCCAM (http://nccam.nih.gov/health/homeopathy/#q5) Many homeopathic remedies are so highly diluted that not one molecule of the original natural substance remains. So some of the remedies are not that highly diluted. Maybe some of those function not unlike vaccines, boosting or priming the natural immune system or something.

And for the rest, those remedies with "not one molecule of the original natural substance", I see no reason to think they can't function like an elaborate sugar pill.

More precisely: overhyped and overpriced scam.

[Daynna]

My co-worker purchased some sort of silkworm stuff to take for cramps. I don't know the details, but after googling a little I wonder if it is "Can Sha" (poop).

I know some very intelligent people that will spend hundreds of dollars to go to a chiropractor every week rather than visit a real doctor once to find out the cause of their pain. It's amazing how many people I know that have the rare condition of "pinched nerve." :D

BTW, anyone else in the US notice that the Enzyte commercials are back?
http://consumerist.com/5043005/whos-smiling-now-enzyte-scammer-gets-25-years-in-prison
I'm not sure what change was made to the commercial to make it acceptable. It looks the same to me. Guess they can still make the claims as long as they give refunds when requested.

I will end with a confession. I recently purchased some Hydroxycut in an effort to lose weight and have more energy. Not exactly alternative medicine. It's more alternative to watching what I eat and getting off my butt to exercise. It made my stomach hurt and I was irritable. I tried taking my lunchtime walks and was so dizzy I almost fell down. I was also as hungry as ever. So, yeah, diet pills are dumb too.

[Goodchild]

Ever since seeing it on Penn & Teller, i've had a soft giggle-spot for Reflexology :) And it works, in a way ... anyone would feel better after a good foot massage.

[Matty]

Who said homepathy should replace mainstream medicine?
well the therapist friend of the guy that died of gangrene after treating a nail wound with Honey, for starters. Then there are the subset of more extreme alternative therapists who make such claims as Aids being a chi imbalance that can be cured by the correct herbs, but they are admittedly end of spectrum.
hers one lot but there are multiple sects out there http://www.aliveandwell.org/

fact is that even if it isnt explicitly recommended to replace mainstream medicine, the mindset of the person is more than likely anti big pharm etc and that is easily communicated without explicit instructions. We've been here before and i dont want to revisit all of it, but certain mindsets are more often found in the same type of person than not.

Alternative therpy circles are rife with those who claim conventional medicine is a placebo (or worse, a poison) meant to keep people ill and in debt. "However OUR treatment is much cheaper"

[Daynna]

Anyone post this link yet?
http://www.whatstheharm.net/

[Matty]

no but that site is gold. thank you.

[Utu]

Anyone post this link yet?
http://www.whatstheharm.net/
Good site. :thumbup:

[epepke]

The dumbest one is the one I have yet to invent in order to make money off of stupid people.

[Free in Freeport]

I get stuck on the word dumb and don't think I can discuss it with out feeling like you are calling me dumb. Even though I am maybe skeptic of the alternative, I can do with out the conscending attitude.

I felt something similar, just based on the thread title. This isn't a thread about science and skepticism - it's a thread about mocking. Fuck that.

A goddamn sugar pill can have physical effects against diseases sometimes.

And can kill a diabetic!

[espritch]

A US friend is taking "Himalayan sea salt" solution twice a day, because it's good for what ails you.

(It's so much better for you than normal salt.)

I didn't think there were any seas in the Himalayas. :confused:

But what do I know. :dunno:

[dancer_rnb]

I get stuck on the word dumb and don't think I can discuss it with out feeling like you are calling me dumb. Even though I am maybe skeptic of the alternative, I can do with out the conscending attitude.

I felt something similar, just based on the thread title. This isn't a thread about science and skepticism - it's a thread about mocking. Fuck that.

A goddamn sugar pill can have physical effects against diseases sometimes.

And can kill a diabetic!

That's a bit of an exaggeration.

[dancer_rnb]

Patrick Timpone Show.


http://www.590klbj.com/hosts-local/Story.aspx?ID=1017582

[Garrett]

Well, according to NCCAM (http://nccam.nih.gov/health/homeopathy/#q5) Many homeopathic remedies are so highly diluted that not one molecule of the original natural substance remains. So some of the remedies are not that highly diluted. Maybe some of those function not unlike vaccines, boosting or priming the natural immune system or something.

And for the rest, those remedies with "not one molecule of the original natural substance", I see no reason to think they can't function like an elaborate sugar pill.

More precisely: overhyped and overpriced scam.
When sugar pills work, why do they work? Whatever that mechanism is, for all you or I know maybe being overhyped and overpriced is exactly what some people need in order for that mechanism to be engaged. Also, what makes you think that such remedies can't be home-brewed?

And there are still those homeopathy remedies which are not diluted to the point that no molecules remain - how do you know they don't function similar to the way vaccines function, by priming the bodies natural defenses?

[Garrett]

Anyone post this link yet?
http://www.whatstheharm.net/
Good site. :thumbup:
Holy shit, mainstream medicine is full of horror stories too. :rolleyes:

[Matty]

yeah, for sure, but the signal to noise ratio is considerably (exponentially) higher, and at least they admit culpability when shit does go wrong.

the point of true medical fuckups is that they are usually because of a side effect, of course they do have a primary effect which DOES help people in the majority of cases.

And medical/pharmaceutical fuckups always tell us something, there is always something to be gained even if it is too late to help the poor bugger who "discovered" the problem, a magical cure not working tells us nothing. Thats becasue there is feedback and accountability in mainstream medicine. No such thing in alternative therapies.

When sugar pills work, why do they work? Whatever that mechanism is, for all you or I know maybe being overhyped and overpriced is exactly what some people need in order for that mechanism to be engaged.

Dont forget that you also get the "benefits" of the placebo effect with actual medicine as opposed to fake. As well as an actual effect

[Brianna]

And for the rest, those remedies with "not one molecule of the original natural substance", I see no reason to think they can't function like an elaborate sugar pill.

Thereby risking the health or life of the folks that use them when they have a condition that demands real medicine.

Define real medicine.

I have meet doctors that are dumber then shit and shouldn't have a license.
I have meet people who are really intelligent and know what they are talking about that don't have a license.

Alternative medicine eliminating stupid people off the face of the earth one idiot at a time. If a person is that stupid to take their health into their own hands, then I guess then it is good population control at least.

[Garrett]

yeah, for sure, but the signal to noise ratio is considerably (exponentially) higher, and at least they admit culpability when shit does go wrong.
Again, no one said homeopathy should replace mainstream medicine. And it seems way to broad a brush when you imply no homeopathy practitioner would ever "admit culpability when shit does go wrong".

the point of true medical fuckups is that they are usually because of a side effect, of course they do have a primary effect which DOES help people in the majority of cases.
"True medical"? Like true scotsman. As alternative methods become understood, sometimes they join the mainstream.

Hell, some people are allergic to aspirin, and a good doctor would accept that meditation for example can be a good idea for dealing with a headache. The attitude in our culture that we should just take a pill for all our problems isn't a very healthy attitude, imo.

And medical/pharmaceutical fuckups always tell us something, there is always something to be gained even if it is too late to help the poor bugger who "discovered" the problem,
That's fair. I see no reason that shouldn't apply to alternative methods also.

a magical cure not working tells us nothing.
Stop that please. Placebo-like and vaccine-like affects aren't magic.

Thats becasue there is feedback and accountability in mainstream medicine. No such thing in alternative therapies.
I see no reason to think that alternative medicine shouldn't submit to feedback and accountability, and I don't believe they don't.

When sugar pills work, why do they work? Whatever that mechanism is, for all you or I know maybe being overhyped and overpriced is exactly what some people need in order for that mechanism to be engaged.
Dont forget that you also get the "benefits" of the placebo effect with actual medicine as opposed to fake. As well as an actual effect
That is hard to parse. Did you just say that placebos never actually work? Did you just say that alternative medicine is fake medicine?

If so, I guess I shouldn't take your opinions here seriously.

[dancer_rnb]

Do alternative practitioners ever pull patients off of treatments?

I've been pulled off of two diabetes medications, so I know mainstream medicine does so.

[Brianna]

Do alternative practitioners ever pull patients off of treatments?

I've been pulled off of two diabetes medications, so I know mainstream medicine does so.

there is a lot of difference between an herbalist and homeopathic treatment.
All I suggest is that you make wise choices based on what you believe is right.

[dancer_rnb]

If I could still do what I believe is right, i'd still be taking Rezulin, Briana

[Matty]

there is a lot of difference between an herbalist and homeopathic treatment.
Well on the surface maybe, however the most important similarity is that despite claiming to be medical remedies none of them have ever succesfully undergone a clinical trial to assess safety or efficacy. You take them on the say so of the "practitioner" and with no evidence to back them up.

All I suggest is that you make wise choices based on what you believe is right. No. Thats a bollocks suggestion i'm afraid. You might believe that praying for a cure is the best bet but you aint gonna get better through it are you? .

Read some papers and make a choice on the basic of evidence for whichever one will actually work in your case. That's advice.

And garrett, its all well and good assuming that there is some sort of vaccine like reaction but all that tells me is that you understand the claimed and proven mechanisms of both incorrectly.

That is hard to parse. Did you just say that placebos never actually work? Did you just say that alternative medicine is fake medicine?Well i was actually referring to your "sugar pill" as a fake medicine, but since you ask in the vast majority of cases yes, alternative remedies are fake. Homoeopathy is a fake medicine, unless you actually think water can remeber what was once dissolved in it. Your average homoeopathic remedy has much much LESS biological effect than even the sugar pill.

Thats why they are "alternative" were they to actually work they would be be mainstream pharmacopoeia, they would be studied, the mechanism and active ingredients identified and isolated. And the correct dosage for optimal efficacy with minimal side effects assessed. Then after extended triels to asses saftey they might be put on the market assuming the pros out weiigh the cons to a significant degree.

Alternative in this case always means alternative to something that has been proven to work. Feel free to prove me wrong with evidence of an alternative remedy (or therpy, lets give you a bigger chance) that actually works according to its claims (actual evidence, hot New Ager anecdotes if you dont mind. )

[dancer_rnb]

One of my medicines was found in Gila Monster venom. :eek::evil:

Again, I can see its effect on my glucometer readings.

[Brianna]

If I could still do what I believe is right, i'd still be taking Rezulin, Briana

I know that. I can't imagine how frustrating it would be to lose a drug that is important to me.

The FDA is fallible. They make mistakes.

I do think that all people should have choices, regardless of the outcome of their choices. There is no way you can always apply logic and reasoning to what happens with humans with out stepping on free will.

[Brianna]

there is a lot of difference between an herbalist and homeopathic treatment.
Well on the surface maybe, however the most important similarity is that despite claiming to be medical remedies none of them have ever succesfully undergone a clinical trial to assess safety or efficacy. You take them on the say so of the "practitioner" and with no evidence to back them up.

All I suggest is that you make wise choices based on what you believe is right. No. Thats a bollocks suggestion i'm afraid. You might believe that praying for a cure is the best bet but you aint gonna get better through it are you? .

Read some papers and make a choice on the basic of evidence for whichever one will actually work in your case. That's advice.

And garrett, its all well and good assuming that there is some sort of vaccine like reaction but all that tells me is that you understand the claimed and proven mechanisms of both incorrectly.

That is hard to parse. Did you just say that placebos never actually work? Did you just say that alternative medicine is fake medicine?Well i was actually referring to your "sugar pill" as a fake medicine, but since you ask in the vast majority of cases yes, alternative remedies are fake. Homoeopathy is a fake medicine, unless you actually think water can remeber what was once dissolved in it. Your average homoeopathic remedy has much much LESS biological effect than even the sugar pill.

Thats why they are "alternative" were they to actually work they would be be mainstream pharmacopoeia, they would be studied, the mechanism and active ingredients identified and isolated. And the correct dosage for optimal efficacy with minimal side effects assessed. Then after extended triels to asses saftey they might be put on the market assuming the pros out weiigh the cons to a significant degree.

Alternative in this case always means alternative to something that has been proven to work. Feel free to prove me wrong with evidence of an alternative remedy (or therpy, lets give you a bigger chance) that actually works according to its claims (actual evidence, hot New Ager anecdotes if you dont mind. )

Have you ever done research on test results? Alternative means not practiced main stream.

For example: The morning after pill works - most countries make this available Because of POLITICS the FDA in this country does not. Does that mean it is not workable solution? You need to wake and smell the coffee. Oh by the way, coffee makes you pooh. Better not take that, it isn't FDA regulated.

*mumbles incoherently about unsympathetic skeptics

[dancer_rnb]

If I could still do what I believe is right, i'd still be taking Rezulin, Briana

I know that. I can't imagine how frustrating it would be to lose a drug that is important to me.

The FDA is fallible. They make mistakes.

I do think that all people should have choices, regardless of the outcome of their choices. There is no way you can always apply logic and reasoning to what happens with humans with out stepping on free will.

I still like to have as much info as possible. I had heard about the liver problems, and had asked my doctor about it, thinking maybe I needed to have my liver enzymes checked more frequently. Only thing I would have really be concerned about would be that the med caused problems without warning, but I hadn't heard so and don't know if that was the case. If it was, pulling Rezulin would have been justified in my opinion.

[Matty]

The morning after pill works - most countries make this available Because of POLITICS the FDA in this country does not.

Bad analogy Brianna, you show me a homoeopathic remedy or similar that works in ANY country. Shit, show me some reflexology, reiki, any of it that works in ANY country and you may have a point, but you cant. The claims that homoeopathy et al are bunk arent political or rhetorical devices, they are simply based on the fact that in no way have they ever been shown to work any where or at any time.

Fact is that the morning after pill is KNOWN to work, and why, even if the fundy retards in various states dont allow it

Granted occasional the stopped clock does tell the right time twice a day and all that. IN such cases where some sort of efficacy is suspected proper studies soon follow. The main one is that there is actual interest in acupuncture for some efficacy. Even that is kinda moot because it certainly isnt working by relieving the flow of chi energy through the chakras (thought to me bore related to localised endorphin release) .

Claiming that something works without proving it in any way other than wooly collections of anecdotes simply isnt good enough when you are fucking with peoples well being, you have to know why it works, how it works and under what conditions. As well as potential risks. Given that many alternative medicines commonly have themselves classified as food supplements specifically to bypass the safety issues, necessity for teats etc, that says to me they KNOW its all bollokcks and can simply add some small print disclaimer that no one reads.

Question. If any of these things actually worked, and was celarly show in tests dont you think that would be trumpeted from the rooftops? Any remedy that relies n chi or "energy" to work would be a Nobel win were it proven to wirk that way. How come thee manufacturers of such bullshit remedies DONT submit to trials if their case would be so much more strong with the bolster of some real evidence?

[ofro]

For example: The morning after pill works - most countries make this available Because of POLITICS the FDA in this country does not. Does that mean it is not workable solution? You need to wake and smell the coffee. Oh by the way, coffee makes you pooh. Better not take that, it isn't FDA regulated.

*mumbles incoherently about unsympathetic skeptics



That's not alternative medicine. It's called off-prescription medication.

As to that coffee stuff, I won't fight you if you want to call that herbal medicine.

[Garrett]

And garrett, its all well and good assuming that there is some sort of vaccine like reaction but all that tells me is that you understand the claimed and proven mechanisms of both incorrectly.
Could be.

That is hard to parse. Did you just say that placebos never actually work? Did you just say that alternative medicine is fake medicine?Well i was actually referring to your "sugar pill" as a fake medicine, but since you ask in the vast majority of cases yes, alternative remedies are fake.
So sometimes alternative medicine works.

Homoeopathy is a fake medicine, unless you actually think water can remeber what was once dissolved in it.
False dichotomy.

Your average homoeopathic remedy has much much LESS biological effect than even the sugar pill.
So it doesn't work, except when it works.

Thats why they are "alternative" were they to actually work they would be be mainstream pharmacopoeia, they would be studied, the mechanism and active ingredients identified and isolated.
Apparently you are actually unaware that alternative medicine sometimes becomes mainstream. And you also seem unaware that mainstream medicine often doesn't work.

And the correct dosage for optimal efficacy with minimal side effects assessed. Then after extended triels to asses saftey they might be put on the market assuming the pros out weiigh the cons to a significant degree.
You've been drinking. :eek:

Alternative in this case always means alternative to something that has been proven to work.
No, I'm positive it doesn't always mean that.

Feel free to prove me wrong with evidence of an alternative remedy (or therpy, lets give you a bigger chance) that actually works according to its claims (actual evidence, hot New Ager anecdotes if you dont mind. )
When such alternatives are 'proven' to work, they become mainstream. Do you believe no alternative remedies have ever become mainstream?

But to directly answer your question. Although I'm a total noob on the subject, still I managed to learn about integrative medicine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_medicine).

Your mind is closed, Matty, and it's a shame to see. You aren't being skeptical, you're being a bigot. Take a pill.

[Garrett]

you show me a homoeopathic remedy or similar that works in ANY country.
Homeopathic remedies work at least as well as placebos, which are definitely known (by mainstream medicine!) to actually work.

Any dumbass with a google-machine can learn that fact.

[Garrett]

As to that coffee stuff, I won't fight you if you want to call that herbal medicine.
:notworthy:

[Goodchild]

IMO, Flying Buttress wins the 'dumbest alternative medicine' competition by nominating prayer :)

[Matty]

you show me a homoeopathic remedy or similar that works in ANY country.
Homeopathic remedies work at least as well as placebos, which are definitely known (by mainstream medicine!) to actually work.

Any dumbass with a google-machine can learn that fact.

no. they are known to work exactly as well as a placebo. Not at least as, so the point is there is no pharmaceutical activity, there is a mind related feel good factor/PMA type effect. You think that it is acceptable to sell them for significant money on the basis of a claimed effect when the absolute best it does is the same as a fake pill?

you think it is okay to delay the person getting actual medical treatment because the healer tells them the alternative will work just as well. People have and do die(d) because of that, Garrett.

You think it is alright for therapists to claim they can cure actual medical disorders with them when they cant. Placebo effect doesnt CURE anything, it can lessen some symptoms at best, and you get the placebo effect with actual medicine too, plus actual proven pharmacological effect.

Honestly mate, do you know what the placebo effect IS? You can get a placebo effect with a cup of tea or mommy kissing it better. Should we prescribe those too?

So sometimes alternative medicine works. as far as i know the only alternative therapies with any evidence to back them up are acupuncture and chiropractic, and those in very confined ways (Chiro has been shown to have a comparable effect to massage in relieving acute lower back pain) .

What you seem to be ignoring is that the mechanism is also important, acupuncture has shown some effect in lessening pain, however it is not because of the traditionally claimed mechanism. it is not unblocking the chakras and letting the chi energy flow more effectively , because there are no such things.

So real medics and scientist have to assess quite what is actually going on, and as it stands its thought to be a localized endorphin release (akin to that wee buzz you get when you have a tattoo, if you have any)

False dichotomy. There was no dichotomy there. Homoeopathy is a fake medicine because it doesnt do as it claims. It is physically impossible for it to do as it claims, and no effect above placebo has ever been shown. Becasue it is impossible on a chemical and physical basis for it to work as it claims.

So it doesn't work, except when it works.No. It just doesnt work. If you think placebo effect is "working" then you are wrong. Placebo effect can cure nothing, and what we are talking about here are people taking such things because they are told it will cure their illness when it most definitely wont. Did you see the link to the angel healing vortex energy channeling bitch who claims to help cure cancer with her bullshit? Is that okay? Or should such ill people be seeing a real doctor not some flake who claims she talks to Archangel Gabriel and the spirit of Merlin on your behalf to make you well?

Delays in such cases cost lives mate, this isn't just temporary relief for your psoriasis we are talking about.

When such alternatives are 'proven' to work, they become mainstream. Do you believe no alternative remedies have ever become mainstream?
No in fact i said exactly the opposite. It IS however pretty damn rare and only in certain remedies that something does work. Homoeopathy isnt one of them. The odd herbal remedy might show some effect, however it is in no way dosage and efficacy controlled, and the chance of side effects using an alternative "pure" source, is consequently higher than the dose controlled purified active ingredient.

And you also seem unaware that mainstream medicine often doesn't work."Often" is one helluva stretch but i already mentioned the difference in the feedback loop above, why are you making out like i claimed something i didnt?

Your mind is closed, Matty, and it's a shame to see. You aren't being skeptical, you're being a bigot. Take a pill.Why is my mind "closed" just because i require evidence for something to believe it works?
You show me a peer reviewed study of an alternative remedy that works and i'm all for it. :dunno:


My base opinion in this is that if you manufacture or prescribe a medical treatment, you should have the same level of accountability and responsibility as a doctor or pharmaceutical company. You should have to show that what you are saying is true before you can prescribe it to the credulous public, and be accountable if any false or exaggerated claims cause any harm. If you are an herbalist or other therapist who prescribes any sort of compound to cure illness, you should have (a) some sort of pharmaceutical or medical qualification to practice and (b) be opened to being sued of you blatantly lie about the effect of said remedy.

Why does that make me a bigot Garrett? Why the double standard?

[dancer_rnb]

I don't think you need to see and pay an alternative practitioner to get a placebo effect, in any case. I'll often prescribe myself a hot shower, or a bag of frozen raspberries. I think they have an effect.

[Matty]

For sure. The "nice hot cuppa" is the british cure all placebo.

[Brianna]

Just like a hot toddy will fix a cold.

[Monad]

Feng shui

[Garrett]

...
whatever you say Matty

[Garrett]

IMO, Flying Buttress wins the 'dumbest alternative medicine' competition by nominating prayer :)
Oh good another skeptical view to attack.

There are two types of prayer, and one of them actually works.

:)

[Garrett]

Feng shui
Hm. Is feng shui an alternative medicine?

[ofro]

It's not medicine but might as well be applied to medical situations. In my mind its notion of a life energy is roughly on par with Hahnemann's notion that, if something causes a symptom, all you have to do is dilute it into oblivion and it will cure anything causing a similar symptom, no matter what the mechanism.

[dancer_rnb]

IMO, Flying Buttress wins the 'dumbest alternative medicine' competition by nominating prayer :)
Oh good another skeptical view to attack.

There are two types of prayer, and one of them actually works.

:)

Don't get me started on prayer, and the fucking worthless people who push it.

[Ray Moscow]

Don't get me started on prayer, and the fucking worthless people who push it.

You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it. -- Jebus, John 14:14

He doesn't qualify this, either, saying you have to ask the right things, or with enough faith, or with the right preparation or attitude. Just ask, and he'll do it.

Worthless liar Jebus!

[dancer_rnb]

Well, don't forget to count this when you're counting cases of prayer that worked.
I prayed for my mother's suffering to end, and the response I got was
for my father to shoot her and then himself.

[Ray Moscow]

Well, don't forget to count this when you're counting cases of prayer that worked.
I prayed for my mother's suffering to end, and the response I got was
for my father to shoot her and then himself.

That's terrible. I'm sorry for your loss.

(Words don't really do it, though.)

[dancer_rnb]

Thank you. It has been five years though, and I'm not really looking for sympathy at this point, it's just that the topic of prayer, and the cherry picking so often involved, still riles me so.

[baddaboom]

IMO, Flying Buttress wins the 'dumbest alternative medicine' competition by nominating prayer :)
Oh good another skeptical view to attack.

There are two types of prayer, and one of them actually works.

:)

Don't get me started on prayer, and the fucking worthless people who push it.
I'm sorry for your loss and the whole situation.

There are still two types of prayer, and one of them actually works.

[baddaboom]

Well, don't forget to count this when you're counting cases of prayer that worked.
I prayed for my mother's suffering to end, and the response I got was
for my father to shoot her and then himself.
That's intercessory prayer, the type that doesn't work. The connection between your prayer and the murder-suicide is just coincidence.

[Garrett]

Aw shoot, the above two posts were made by Garrett, not baddaboom. We're sharing this computer right now and I forgot to notice which tab I was on. :(

[Christina]

There are two types of prayer, and one of them actually works.

Could you elaborate on this? What are the two kinds and how does one of them work?

[Matty]

Feng shui
Hm. Is feng shui an alternative medicine?
its not an alternative medicine but it IS the fucking KING of alternative therapies. by freeing the flow of your "house chii" you can promote better health and longer life for your WHOLE FAMILY at the same time, as well as make your self rich, and ensuring you are fertile of course.

Furniture rearranging for greatah longevity, higher sperm counts and increased cash flow. Doesnt get much better than that really, hey chi is wonderful stuff y'know, no limits, be it in reiki, acupuncture OR feng shui.

Anyway, dont knock it you cynic, there MIGHT be something in it. you never know. There are a couple million feng shui "experts" out there and even a good few feng shui hairdressers and pet groomers.

They cant ALL be full of shit can they?
They cant ALL be just making a buck off the credulous with specious crap can they? where is your willingness to believe now Garrett?

whatever you say Matty
and i shall consider you totally owned if that is the best you can do. So shall everyone else, probably.

If nothing else please answer why it is bigoted to require evidence for things that supposedly fuck with people's well being. I look forward to your response and am sending some creative chi your way to help you along, can you feel it?
:)


Oh and add me to the list of people waiting to hear of some evidence for any kind of prayer. The only study i know of showed a slightly negative correlation with recovery and being prayed for.

[dancer_rnb]

Well, don't forget to count this when you're counting cases of prayer that worked.
I prayed for my mother's suffering to end, and the response I got was
for my father to shoot her and then himself.
That's intercessory prayer, the type that doesn't work. The connection between your prayer and the murder-suicide is just coincidence.

Prove that it wasn't the action of a coyote type god that resulted in an assisted suicide-suicide.

[Ray Moscow]

The Hebrew Bible strongly indicates that Bible God will punish those who pray incorrectly.

If one tosses that out, he/she might as well toss the whole Bible. (which I recommend, BTW)

[Barefoot Bree]

At the risk of futilely attempting to reopen a closed conversation, I'd still like to address one thing Garrett said a while back, that homeopathy is akin to vaccination.

Vaccination is (veeeery loosely in layman's terms) taking a very small portion of the virus or whatever that is the cause of the particular disease in question and injecting it into the patient so their immune system will learn to recognize it and kill it if they ever get exposed to it again.

Homeopathy is based on "like cures like", and aims to "cure" symptoms already present. One of the symptoms of smallpox is those huge ugly puss-filled blisters. A homeopath would find something else that causes huge ugly puss-filled blisters, such as a toxic weed, and proceed to make his medicine from that and have the patient swallow it.

How (ignoring the extreme dilution for a moment) is a smallpox patient injesting a toxic weed preparation supposed to cure those blisters, let alone the smallpox itself that is causing them?

The answer is obviously that it doesn't, either one.

And no, this is not a misrepresentation. Replace "smallpox" with "common cold", "blisters" with "runny/stuffy nose", and "toxic weed" with some substance that commonly causes a runny nose, and you've got the basis for current, modern-day homeopathic cold "remedies". How does this make it a vaccine?

Now, let's get back to that extreme dilution. How could even a true smallpox vaccine work after being diluted to the point where no molecule of said vaccine remains in the water used to dilute it?

[Barefoot Bree]

If I were to venture a guess, I'd say the type of prayer said to work is the type requesting that God "show me the way" and "help me face this trial" sort of thing, of which the Serenity Prayer is one of the most famous.

God grant me the Serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
the Courage to change the things I can,
and the Wisdom to know the difference.

The effect of which is to my eyes, the same as meditation. Which I am not dumping on, by the way. No, I'm not promoting the wild-eyed "fly through the air and become a mental superman" type of meditation. I'm promoting the well-established effects of calming, stress-reduction, and mental 'sharpening'.

Am I right, Garrett?

[Monad]

Feng shui
Hm. Is feng shui an alternative medicine?
its not an alternative medicine but it IS the fucking KING of alternative therapies. by freeing the flow of your "house chii" you can promote better health and longer life for your WHOLE FAMILY at the same time, as well as make your self rich, and ensuring you are fertile of course.

Yes therapy (not that "alternative" "medicine" really differentiates anyway)

Who was it that said the "alternative" stood for alternative to "working"? :)

[Matty]

:wave::)

[Garrett]

There are two types of prayer, and one of them actually works.

Could you elaborate on this? What are the two kinds and how does one of them work?
Intercessory vs non-intercessory prayer. The latter works as meditation, for example it reduces stress and boosts the immune system.

Thanks for the intelligent question.

[Garrett]

and i shall consider you totally owned if that is the best you can do. So shall everyone else, probably.
Speaking for others is a bad sign. Look, for an example I said you committed a false dichotomy, for the simple reason that you commited a false dichotomy, and your response was simple denial as opposed to asking what other alternatives were available. There is little point in engaging with you on this subject, Matty.

If nothing else please answer why it is bigoted to require evidence for things that supposedly fuck with people's well being. I look forward to your response and am sending some creative chi your way to help you along, can you feel it?
You already admitted that some alternative remedies should not be treated with disrespect. I've given two reasons to not disrespect homeopathy.

Oh and add me to the list of people waiting to hear of some evidence for any kind of prayer. The only study i know of showed a slightly negative correlation with recovery and being prayed for.
Yet you claim to know about the benefits of meditation. Just leave me alone Matty, please? You aren't reasonable on this subject.

[Garrett]

Well, don't forget to count this when you're counting cases of prayer that worked.
I prayed for my mother's suffering to end, and the response I got was
for my father to shoot her and then himself.
That's intercessory prayer, the type that doesn't work. The connection between your prayer and the murder-suicide is just coincidence.

Prove that it wasn't the action of a coyote type god that resulted in an assisted suicide-suicide.
Why? Maybe it was, but I see no reason to believe so. What reason do you have to believe so?

[Garrett]

At the risk of futilely attempting to reopen a closed conversation, I'd still like to address one thing Garrett said a while back, that homeopathy is akin to vaccination.

Vaccination is (veeeery loosely in layman's terms) taking a very small portion of the virus or whatever that is the cause of the particular disease in question and injecting it into the patient so their immune system will learn to recognize it and kill it if they ever get exposed to it again.

Homeopathy is based on "like cures like", and aims to "cure" symptoms already present. One of the symptoms of smallpox is those huge ugly puss-filled blisters. A homeopath would find something else that causes huge ugly puss-filled blisters, such as a toxic weed, and proceed to make his medicine from that and have the patient swallow it.

How (ignoring the extreme dilution for a moment) is a smallpox patient injesting a toxic weed preparation supposed to cure those blisters, let alone the smallpox itself that is causing them?

The answer is obviously that it doesn't, either one.
I think you have a point. Do vaccines work on the already infected?

And no, this is not a misrepresentation. Replace "smallpox" with "common cold", "blisters" with "runny/stuffy nose", and "toxic weed" with some substance that commonly causes a runny nose, and you've got the basis for current, modern-day homeopathic cold "remedies". How does this make it a vaccine?
I don't know. Maybe there are holistic remedies not understood by science? I'm opposing close-minded bigotry, and not necessarily advocating homeopathy.

Now, let's get back to that extreme dilution. How could even a true smallpox vaccine work after being diluted to the point where no molecule of said vaccine remains in the water used to dilute it?
Here's a repeat no one wants to touch: how do sugar pills work?

[Garrett]

God grant me the Serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
the Courage to change the things I can,
and the Wisdom to know the difference.
This is an aside, I have a brother who is a recovering addict and teaches recovery at the local VA, and that quote has always bugged me. I can change a lot of things (such as your ability to breath) but that doesn't mean I should even though I can.

[/derail]

[Garrett]

Prove that it wasn't the action of a coyote type god that resulted in an assisted suicide-suicide.
Based on the little I've heard, I think it was an assisted suicide-suicide. It wasn't your fault.

[Barefoot Bree]

At the risk of futilely attempting to reopen a closed conversation, I'd still like to address one thing Garrett said a while back, that homeopathy is akin to vaccination.

Vaccination is (veeeery loosely in layman's terms) taking a very small portion of the virus or whatever that is the cause of the particular disease in question and injecting it into the patient so their immune system will learn to recognize it and kill it if they ever get exposed to it again.

Homeopathy is based on "like cures like", and aims to "cure" symptoms already present. One of the symptoms of smallpox is those huge ugly puss-filled blisters. A homeopath would find something else that causes huge ugly puss-filled blisters, such as a toxic weed, and proceed to make his medicine from that and have the patient swallow it.

How (ignoring the extreme dilution for a moment) is a smallpox patient injesting a toxic weed preparation supposed to cure those blisters, let alone the smallpox itself that is causing them?

The answer is obviously that it doesn't, either one.
I think you have a point. Do vaccines work on the already infected?
Thank you. And no, they do not. Vaccines are a preventive measure, not a treatment.
And no, this is not a misrepresentation. Replace "smallpox" with "common cold", "blisters" with "runny/stuffy nose", and "toxic weed" with some substance that commonly causes a runny nose, and you've got the basis for current, modern-day homeopathic cold "remedies". How does this make it a vaccine?
I don't know. Maybe there are holistic remedies not understood by science? I'm opposing close-minded bigotry, and not necessarily advocating homeopathy.
Is someone who has spent some time looking into homeopathy, read up on the methods and concepts, and judged that it is without scientific merit (beyond the placebo effect; see below) being closed-minded? If so, hand me a symbolic lock. Better hand me a really big one, because there's a whole world of stuff out there I have similarly investigated and rejected. And yes, some I have investigated and accepted. Such as meditation. Just not very good at it yet.
Now, let's get back to that extreme dilution. How could even a true smallpox vaccine work after being diluted to the point where no molecule of said vaccine remains in the water used to dilute it?
Here's a repeat no one wants to touch: how do sugar pills work?
It's been touched. The placebo effect is quite well known and studied; you can look it up easily. Here's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo) a Wiki article to get you started.

The placebo effect is a medical phenomenon where the results of a medical treatment are affected by the patient's ideas about how effective the treatment is. The term is especially used when a patient responds dramatically to a physiologically inactive treatment. Inactive treatments used to induce the placebo effect are called placebos; inert "sugar" pills and sham surgeries are typical examples.

The placebo effect is the only thing that homeopathy has going for it, Garrett. I'm not discounting that effect; the mind can be quite powerful. But it can only work on symptoms; there's no cure there.

As long as we're talking about small issues like the common cold, fine. The old saying is still true: colds go away in 2 weeks with treatment, 14 days without. No damage.

But if a patient with a serious illness such as cancer turns away from mainstream medicine with proven results and spends all their time and considerable money on empty promises such as homeopathy, the outcome is virtually guaranteed: a wasted fortune and death for the patient.

[Barefoot Bree]

God grant me the Serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
the Courage to change the things I can,
and the Wisdom to know the difference.
This is an aside, I have a brother who is a recovering addict and teaches recovery at the local VA, and that quote has always bugged me. I can change a lot of things (such as your ability to breath) but that doesn't mean I should even though I can.

[/derail]

Interesting point. Would changing the first line to "accept the things I cannot or should not change" help?

(I always leave out the first word, myself, for obvious reasons. That prayer, so modified, begins and ends my (pathetic attempts at) meditation.)

[Garrett]

At the risk of futilely attempting to reopen a closed conversation, I'd still like to address one thing Garrett said a while back, that homeopathy is akin to vaccination.

Vaccination is (veeeery loosely in layman's terms) taking a very small portion of the virus or whatever that is the cause of the particular disease in question and injecting it into the patient so their immune system will learn to recognize it and kill it if they ever get exposed to it again.

Homeopathy is based on "like cures like", and aims to "cure" symptoms already present. One of the symptoms of smallpox is those huge ugly puss-filled blisters. A homeopath would find something else that causes huge ugly puss-filled blisters, such as a toxic weed, and proceed to make his medicine from that and have the patient swallow it.

How (ignoring the extreme dilution for a moment) is a smallpox patient injesting a toxic weed preparation supposed to cure those blisters, let alone the smallpox itself that is causing them?

The answer is obviously that it doesn't, either one.
I think you have a point. Do vaccines work on the already infected?
Thank you. And no, they do not. Vaccines are a preventative measure, not a treatment.
Agreed. I don't have a rebuttal, except for the weak "vaccine-like" doesn't mean "exactly-like". It's okay with me if the successes of homeopathy are pinned on placebo-like effects. Imo, that's enough to determine that homeopathy has value. And it's possible that however much we don't understand why, homeopathic remedies utilize some mechanism we've hardly begun to understand. If their function is purely psychological, isn't that still a reason to take them seriously?

Is someone who has spent some time looking into homeopathy, read up on the methods and concepts, and judged that it is without scientific merit (beyond the placebo effect; see below) being closed-minded?
No, since you at least admit they sometimes work. Isn't it possible that the currently-understood "scientific merit" will be modified? I think that's a given! Can you say for sure that there is no possibility that homeopathic remedies can never work other than as placebos?

If so, hand me a symbolic lock. Better hand me a really big one, because there's a whole world of stuff out there I have similarly investigated and judged.
Me too. No one understands the nature of life and mind. Not yet, maybe not ever.


Here's a repeat no one wants to touch: how do sugar pills work?
It's been touched. The placebo effect is quite well known and studied; you can look it up easily. Here's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo) a Wiki article to get you started.

The placebo effect is a medical phenomenon where the results of a medical treatment are affected by the patient's ideas about how effective the treatment is. The term is especially used when a patient responds dramatically to a physiologically inactive treatment. Inactive treatments used to induce the placebo effect are called placebos; inert "sugar" pills and sham surgeries are typical examples.
Proving my point, Bree.

The placebo effect is the only thing that homeopathy has going for it, Garrett. I'm not discounting that effect; the mind can be quite powerful. But it can only work on symptoms; there's no cure there.
I don't agree with your first point. I don't agree with your second point either. Cancer sometimes remits - why? No one knows, but it seems to me that the state of one's mind plays a key role.

As long as we're talking about small issues like the common cold, fine. The old saying is still true: colds go away in 2 weeks with treatment, 14 days without. No damage.
You just slammed mainstream medicine.

But if a patient with a serious illness such as cancer turns away from mainstream medicine with proven results and spends all their time and considerable money on empty promises such as homeopathy, the outcome is virtually guaranteed: a wasted fortune and death for the patient.
What about when mainstream medicine fails? Shouldn't the patient turn to alternatives?

[Garrett]

God grant me the Serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
the Courage to change the things I can,
and the Wisdom to know the difference.
This is an aside, I have a brother who is a recovering addict and teaches recovery at the local VA, and that quote has always bugged me. I can change a lot of things (such as your ability to breath) but that doesn't mean I should even though I can.

[/derail]

Interesting point. Would changing the first line to "accept the things I cannot or should not change" help?

(I always leave out the first word, myself, for obvious reasons. That prayer, so modified, begins and ends my (pathetic attempts at) meditation.)
I'd change the word "can" to "should", solving the problem and opening a can of worms at the same time. :p

[Barefoot Bree]

Agreed. I don't have a rebuttal, except for the weak "vaccine-like" doesn't mean "exactly-like". It's okay with me if the successes of homeopathy are pinned on placebo-like effects. Imo, that's enough to determine that homeopathy has value. And it's possible that however much we don't understand why, homeopathic remedies utilize some mechanism we've hardly begun to understand. If their function is purely psychological, isn't that still a reason to take them seriously?
You have a MUCH higher confidence in the efficacy of the placebo effect than I do. I tend to discount it entirely.
No, since you at least admit they sometimes work. Isn't it possible that the currently-understood "scientific merit" will be modified? I think that's a given! Can you say for sure that there is no possibility that homeopathic remedies can never work other than as placebos?
Yes, I can say that. Were you not paying attention? You take a substance that frequently causes headaches, dilute it out of existence, and sell it as a headache cure? That has NOTHING going for it EXCEPT the placebo effect. I am completely confident that there is no other explanation.

What else do you think it has?

As long as we're talking about small issues like the common cold, fine. The old saying is still true: colds go away in 2 weeks with treatment, 14 days without. No damage.
You just slammed mainstream medicine.
Mainstream medicine has not yet come up with a cure for the common cold, only alleviation of the symptoms. So what? That says nothing about cures for other, more serious things.
But if a patient with a serious illness such as cancer turns away from mainstream medicine with proven results and spends all their time and considerable money on empty promises such as homeopathy, the outcome is virtually guaranteed: a wasted fortune and death for the patient.
What about when mainstream medicine fails? Shouldn't the patient turn to alternatives?
No. Didn't I just say that? If alternative medicine is naught but empty promises and empty wallets before mainstream medicine fails, what is it about that failure that suddenly makes those promises and wallets not empty?

[Oolon Colluphid]

Meditation posts split here (http://secularcafe.org/showthread.php?t=1189). Carry on :)

[Matty]

Speaking for others is a bad sign. Agreed, i was just yanking your chain, but then seeing as you are wilfully ignoring all of the evidence that Bree and others have put your way too, i bet i'm not too far off the mark.

Look, for an example I said you committed a false dichotomy, for the simple reason that you commited a false dichotomy, and your response was simple denial as opposed to asking what other alternatives were available. There is little point in engaging with you on this subject, Matty. Ah garret there was no dichotomy there at all.
there was a conditional statement. Lemme try again.
Homoeopathy is a fake medicine, unless you actually think water can remember what was once dissolved in it. Homoeopathy claims to work via a defined mechanism involving water memory. Right?
Water doesnt have a memory, we know that ,it is a fucking oxygen and 2 hydrogen atoms. Right?
So the remedy cannot work in any way as it claims. Right?
Ergo it IS a medicine sold under false pretences and with false claims, unless you believe that water does have a memory, Right?
In which case you are wrong. Right? :)


You already admitted that some alternative remedies should not be treated with disrespect. I've given two reasons to not disrespect homeopathy. No you havent. If you have i guess they were missed by everyone that has responded.

You have mentioned the placebo effect (with undue significance) which is a blanket internal effect and nothing to do the efficacy of the remedy taken. You also likened it to vaccines which multiple people have told you is a bad analogy and why.

Yet you claim to know about the benefits of meditation. Just leave me alone Matty, please? You aren't reasonable on this subject. So you are talking about the mental focal benefits of prayer. Not claiming that some supernatural being does as you ask. So how then is prayer any better than any other method of the same? How is the prayer itself significant as an effector?

Most importantly, Why do you make no distinction between actual effect and claimed effect in all these cases Garrrett. If someone says that so and so pill sends a magical fairy to cure your headache, you take it and your headache abates, is that evidence that we should take fairy therapy seriously or does Occams razor dictate that fairys dont exist and there was another simpler reason for the headache going other than the fairy. ARe we getting there yet?

This seems to the be crux of some of these disagreements. That and giving massive undue credence to the placebo effect. If placebo effect were as powerful as you make out no one would need medicine, mommy could kiss it better for you your whole life.

And alluding to spontaneous cancer remission being due to the placebo effect is pretty laughable or ignorant. PE can help with the symptomatic side effects of chemo etc, but it cannot signal a cancer cell and tell it to stop proliferating and undergo apoptosis.

You can take that as a given from a cancer research scientist. You either dont know what constitutes cancer, or you dont understand the limits of the placebo effect. Either way you are wrong.

Honestly mate, sometimes you sound like one of those breatharians. Mind over matter can do anything right?

[ofro]

For your reference, here (http://www.ahjonline.com/article/PIIS0002870305006496/abstract?browse_volume=151&issue_key=TOC%40%40JOURNALSNOSUPP%40YMHJ%400151%40 0004&issue_preview=no&select1=no&select1=no&vol=) is a scientific test of the effect of prayer.

And some info and comments on that here (http://www.davidmyers.org/Brix?pageID=122) and here (http://www.davidmyers.org/davidmyers/assets/prayer-letter.pdf).

[Ray Moscow]

I like that last comment letter: Pure nonsense from someone who should know better.

[alien billie]

We got Matty, we got different alternative medicines fighting for a title...

We gots ourselves a competition thread!

What'll it be, eight groups of six feeding through to a three by six final? Nine groups of seven with thirteen best runners up? Best three go through out of eleven? Award points for level of gullibility required, quality of pseudo-scientific smokescreen, perceived wooiness of practitioners, with points taken off for any basis in scientific fact (oh, no, wait) :cool:

[alien billie]

For your reference, here (http://www.ahjonline.com/article/PIIS0002870305006496/abstract?browse_volume=151&issue_key=TOC%40%40JOURNALSNOSUPP%40YMHJ%400151%40 0004&issue_preview=no&select1=no&select1=no&vol=) is a scientific test of the effect of prayer.

And some info and comments on that here (http://www.davidmyers.org/Brix?pageID=122) and here (http://www.davidmyers.org/davidmyers/assets/prayer-letter.pdf).

And speaking as an actuary, I am happy to confirm that religious beliefs are not a factor we consider when calculating a person's future life expectancy :rolleyes:

[Ray Moscow]

But, but ... supposedly religious people live longer!

[Matty]

well the pope is usually quite old but thats apparently becasue he sprinkles a little purity brick on his cornflakes every morning.

[Anne]

Well, don't forget to count this when you're counting cases of prayer that worked.
I prayed for my mother's suffering to end, and the response I got was
for my father to shoot her and then himself.
That's intercessory prayer, the type that doesn't work. The connection between your prayer and the murder-suicide is just coincidence.

Prove that it wasn't the action of a coyote type god that resulted in an assisted suicide-suicide.

that would spook me into saying 'be careful what you wish for'.

I'd personally think it was a more fate-y god than Coyote.

[Barefoot Bree]

But, but ... supposedly religious people live longer!

OK, then, how can I become supposedly religious? Sneak into a church once in a while? Do I get another year for each supposed prayer or something? :cool:

[ofro]

For your reference, here (http://www.ahjonline.com/article/PIIS0002870305006496/abstract?browse_volume=151&issue_key=TOC%40%40JOURNALSNOSUPP%40YMHJ%400151%40 0004&issue_preview=no&select1=no&select1=no&vol=) is a scientific test of the effect of prayer.

And some info and comments on that here (http://www.davidmyers.org/Brix?pageID=122) and here (http://www.davidmyers.org/davidmyers/assets/prayer-letter.pdf).

And speaking as an actuary, I am happy to confirm that religious beliefs are not a factor we consider when calculating a person's future life expectancy :rolleyes:

Not even snake handlers?

[epepke]

But, but ... supposedly religious people live longer!

OK, then, how can I become supposedly religious? Sneak into a church once in a while? Do I get another year for each supposed prayer or something? :cool:

Go to a humanist Passover seder. There's no god talk. You still have time, but act quickly!

[alien billie]

For your reference, here (http://www.ahjonline.com/article/PIIS0002870305006496/abstract?browse_volume=151&issue_key=TOC%40%40JOURNALSNOSUPP%40YMHJ%400151%40 0004&issue_preview=no&select1=no&select1=no&vol=) is a scientific test of the effect of prayer.

And some info and comments on that here (http://www.davidmyers.org/Brix?pageID=122) and here (http://www.davidmyers.org/davidmyers/assets/prayer-letter.pdf).

And speaking as an actuary, I am happy to confirm that religious beliefs are not a factor we consider when calculating a person's future life expectancy :rolleyes:

Not even snake handlers?

*hurriedly adds footnote to mortality tables*

[Matty]

dont forget Xtian Scientists and Jovies. :)

[alien billie]

dont forget Xtian Scientists and Jovies. :)

But hang on, if the statistics show no significant difference in the life span of believers and non-believers, and there’s all these believers doing utterly lunatic things, then their effect on mortality must be counterbalanced by something like, gulp, prayer :eek:

:notworthy:*Gets down on hands and knees*

:notworthy:*prays fervently*

:notworthy:*for a plague of boils to afflict Manchester United*

[ofro]

Colon cleansing!!!!

Check here (http://www.bestcoloncleaning.com/) for full review of all the wonderful products!

And now you can do it yourself in the privacy of your home! (http://www.bestcoloncleaning.com/homemade_colon_cleanse/)

[Ray Moscow]

Colon cleansing!!!!

Check here (http://www.bestcoloncleaning.com/) for full review of all the wonderful products!

And now you can do it yourself in the privacy of your home! (http://www.bestcoloncleaning.com/homemade_colon_cleanse/)

Here's a great quote from your last link:

Your colon can hold up to 25 pounds of wasted food to dangerous toxins that should be cleaned out on an ongoing basis. Homemade colon cleansing formulas help you to stay on top of this five foot colon tube.

I didn't even know that my colon could hold 25 lbs of anything, much less "toxins". :)

ETA: Since these people are playing loose with orders of magnitude, maybe we could assert that "your colon can contain more than your entire body weight in toxins" to see whether anyone catches the joke?

[BWE]

I have some woo-ish acquaintances, one of whom is a "Colon Hydrotherapist". It says it on her business card.

eeeeeeewwwwwwww.

[Matty]

i'm afraid i dont trust anybody who is hugely enthusiastic and cringe inducingly descriptive about the dump they just took. they use words like "stringy" as well. yuk.

nice title aside you friend shoves hose pipes up peoples asses and then measures their volume of poo for a living, right. :)

Its a shitty job but someone's gotta, actually, no......they dont,

[ofro]

Your colon can hold up to 25 pounds of wasted food to dangerous toxins that should be cleaned out on an ongoing basis. Homemade colon cleansing formulas help you to stay on top of this five foot colon tube.

I didn't even know that my colon could hold 25 lbs of anything, much less "toxins". :)

It potentially could if you have a condition called Megacolon. But then you are one sick baby.

[Free in Freeport]

Haven't those folks ever heard of just taking a shit?

[Brianna]

Colon cleansing!!!!

Check here (http://www.bestcoloncleaning.com/) for full review of all the wonderful products!

And now you can do it yourself in the privacy of your home! (http://www.bestcoloncleaning.com/homemade_colon_cleanse/)

OMG I SAID THAT 4 pages ago.

[ofro]

Colon cleansing!!!!

Check here (http://www.bestcoloncleaning.com/) for full review of all the wonderful products!

And now you can do it yourself in the privacy of your home! (http://www.bestcoloncleaning.com/homemade_colon_cleanse/)

OMG I SAID THAT 4 pages ago.

Sorry, it's been too long to remember (7 pages ago!). :)

I went back and found your comment, but I think you were not critical enough.

[Brianna]

Colon cleansing!!!!

Check here (http://www.bestcoloncleaning.com/) for full review of all the wonderful products!

And now you can do it yourself in the privacy of your home! (http://www.bestcoloncleaning.com/homemade_colon_cleanse/)

OMG I SAID THAT 4 pages ago.

Sorry, it's been too long to remember (7 pages ago!). :)

I went back and found your comment, but I think you were not critical enough.

Clearly.

[Norrin Radd]

i'm afraid i dont trust anybody who is hugely enthusiastic and cringe inducingly descriptive about the dump they just took. they use words like "stringy" as well. yuk.

nice title aside you friend shoves hose pipes up peoples asses and then measures their volume of poo for a living, right. :)

Its a shitty job but someone's gotta, actually, no......they dont,

Somebody line up Mike Rowe.

[Norrin Radd]

i'm afraid i dont trust anybody who is hugely enthusiastic and cringe inducingly descriptive about the dump ...

"Dr. Oz" seems to think proper dumpage -- optimal frequency, size, texture, and buoyancy -- are very important.

He also says men should ejaculate about 3-5 times per week for optimal health... so maybe that counterbalances his poo fixation? :dunno:

[Matty]

if hes that enthusiastic about poo maybe it adds to it.......ick.

i'm sure proper dumpage is important, i just dont need a detailed breakdown of latest turd composition from people just because they've had a hose shoved up their ass by some new-ager, thank ye muchly all the same and all that, but people who have had the hose up the bum seem very inclined to discuss such things whether you want them to STFU or not, in my experience :)

[ofro]

We have talked about ear candling and about colon cleansing. How come nobody has ever thought about getting the best out of both treatments?

Colon Candling !!!!

[dancer_rnb]

We have talked about ear candling and about colon cleansing. How come nobody has ever thought about getting the best out of both treatments?

Colon Candling !!!!

Be careful not to fart.......

[Eudaimonist]

ETA: Since these people are playing loose with orders of magnitude, maybe we could assert that "your colon can contain more than your entire body weight in toxins" to see whether anyone catches the joke?

If they don't understand why that doesn't make sense, make sure to charge them double and call it a discount.


eudaimonia,

Mark

[Lanakila]

I love the Showtime series bullshit. Last season they had an episode on colon cleansing that was very informing. I go to a chiropractor as I have had a whiplash way back when that causes me neck pain and migraine when it goes out of whack. The Bullshit episode on chiropractors was informative and I pretty much agree that adjusting your spine won't cure bed wetting, ADHD or whatever else ails you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzjoKhBklYg&feature=PlayList&p=1340848F02BDDDBB&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=5

[Matty]

which season is it on now? I have 1-3 on DVD but thay must have done a ton since then.
Yeah i love it, though they arent always right. Most of the time granted .

The fengshui and bottled water one was just sublime. Feeding the bullshitting dickheads in the posh restaurant a series of 8buck "gourmet" bottled waters all filled from the same hose attached to a municipal water supply tap out back.

"Ohh, yeah this is so fresh tasting, i prefer it to the AMazonian one, you can almost TASTE the glacier"
Of course you can love. Keep digging.