Christian girl sues school for being 'forced' to 'empathize with homosexuals'

[Jobar]

http://www.nbcaugusta.com/news/local/Student-sues-ASU-over-anti-homosexual-beliefs-99145694.html

This woman wants to get a degree in counseling, despite her religious objections to homosexuals.

Keeton is suing Augusta State University for "promising to expel her" for voicing her opposition to homosexuality.

...
"The school counseling faculty has decided that my views are not acceptable for me to share with other students and because of that they've required a remediation plan where the end result would be altering my beliefs and values,” Keeton said.

Keeton says she believes homosexuality is a choice rather than a "state of being."

"I'm not willing to and I know I can't change my biblical views," Keeton said.

The affidavit also says a fellow student said Keeton "relayed her interest in conversion therapy" for the gay, lesbian and transgender communities and tried to convince classmates to agree with her religious beliefs.

These personal values could violate the American Counseling Association's code of ethics.

Section A-4, b states that counselors should avoid imposing their "values attitudes and beliefs" on others.

:rolleyes:

[Free in Freeport]

I'd call Keeton a cunt, but she lacks the warmth and depth of one.

[Roo St. Gallus]

:notworthy:

I've been waiting for the right opportunity to see that used, or use it myself.

Kudos.

[espritch]

The lady may be an ass, but she probably has a valid case. A university should teach people, not indoctrinate them, even if that indoctrination involves indoctrination to be less of an ass. You can't make a person empathize with others, that is a position they have to arrive at on their own accord.

[Politesse]

The lady may be an ass, but she probably has a valid case. A university should teach people, not indoctrinate them, even if that indoctrination involves indoctrination to be less of an ass. You can't make a person empathize with others, that is a position they have to arrive at on their own accord.
Empathizing with people is both her job and her professional responsibility as a counsellor- if she can't do that, especially on the grounds of an attribute almost certainly covered by the school's student code of rights, and very certainly the code of ethics followed by professional counsellors, then the school has a responsibility not to give her a degree unless she is willing to conform to professional standards.

[Monad]

The lady may be an ass, but she probably has a valid case. A university should teach people, not indoctrinate them, even if that indoctrination involves indoctrination to be less of an ass. You can't make a person empathize with others, that is a position they have to arrive at on their own accord.


It is but you'd make a crappy counsellor if you can't and she's refusing to even try so should be kicked out on those grounds.

Keeton says she believes homosexuality is a choice rather than a "state of being."

And this is not even relevant - even if it's a choice a basic principle of counselling is establishing a non judgemental attitude - again she fails for not wanting to even try - good grounds to kick her off the course and prevent her joining a profession she is clearly unsuitable for.

[DMB]

There is a vote on that page about whether she is justified or not. I suggest people here should follow the link and vote.

ETA if it had been 40 years ago, she would probably have been complaining about having to empathise with "coloreds", i.e. the Sons of Ham.

[Ray Moscow]

She could also sue them for those mean science classes forcing her to change her biblical views of the age of the Earth, the origin of races, the origin of language, the shape of the Earth (flat), the nature of space (not a firmament), heredity (striped goats), etc.

[Free in Freeport]

What the hell is she doing in college if she's afraid she might actually LEARN something.

[Notta]

The lady may be an ass, but she probably has a valid case. A university should teach people, not indoctrinate them, even if that indoctrination involves indoctrination to be less of an ass. You can't make a person empathize with others, that is a position they have to arrive at on their own accord.But if the university is providing the education whereby she can receive a counseling certificate / degree, and what she espouses is specifically prohibited by the code of conduct for that degree, why should the university continue her education? She's already stated, for the record, that she won't follow the code of conduct for her chosen profession.

I would think it would be like a med student stating in med school that he wouldn't treat people of another race. Why should the med school continue to invest their resources in someone who will not follow a mandatory code of ethics?

[Jet Black]

I would think it would be like a med student stating in med school that he wouldn't treat people of another race. Why should the med school continue to invest their resources in someone who will not follow a mandatory code of ethics?

or perhaps more relevantly, a doctor who refuses to abide by the hippocratic oath.

[BioBeing]

Sounds to me like she wants to do "Christian Counseling", but with the cachet of an accredited degree. If she wants the qualification, however, she has to do the work!

[Roo St. Gallus]

I would think it would be like a med student stating in med school that he wouldn't treat people of another race. Why should the med school continue to invest their resources in someone who will not follow a mandatory code of ethics?

Well, here in the US, they changed the 'ethics'. I'm guessing they had to excise the "do no harm" portion because it was an impediment to practice.

The Hippocratic Oath is no longer the standard. It was evidently 'inconvenient'. Now, I suppose they invoke the Hypocritical Oath.

[Notta]

Roo, this is not the thread for your soapbox about the medical establishment. It was merely used for an analogy.

[Roo St. Gallus]

Roo, this is not the thread for your soapbox about the medical establishment. It was merely used for an analogy.

Well, then, it's a poor analogy.

[columbus]

The lady may be an ass, but she probably has a valid case.

The devil is in the details.

I sincerely doubt that the ASU ever promised to expel her. But that is what she claimed. I expect that what happened was more like "several faculty members pointed out that if she wasn't going to do the coursework, she would fail". That is not the same, although it might have sounded the same to Ms. Keeton.

The article was vague, and there is no way to know what actually happened in Ms Keeton's case. But the most likely explanation for such facts as have been presented is that Ms. Keeton wants a particular degree confered on her by ASU without having the credentials that will get her that degree from ASU. That is not the same as being expelled, although I don't that student financial aid became a problem.

Tom

[Alethias]

She should transfer to Oral Roberts University. I'm sure she'd have no problem getting her degree there without having to deal with the pesky little issue of needing to empathize with homosexuals.

[Rie]

Oh well! it has been said and told like it is but nobody can be forced to empathise.
However it would seem to be an attitude to cultivate if you are going to be a person who 'helps' others.

[Bane]

Well, what the fuck is the point of becoming a counsellor if you can't be non-judgmental?

If she meant she wanted to help Christians only, why the hell didn't she just marry a priest? :rolleyes: Then she could "help" all the miserable women and girls in the church.

[Monad]

Well, what the fuck is the point of becoming a counsellor if you can't be non-judgmental?

Yeah it sounds like she doesn't have a clue what counselling is and simply wants a qualification she thinks can use as a vehicle for promoting her hate. Luckily she was weeded out before causing harm but there are plenty of therapists, doctors and counsellors (I use the term loosely) that unfortunately do not and we are seeing a big increase in cases of people "counselled" into seeing homosexuality and transgender identities as causes for treatment to convert them into heterosexuality (or at least asexuality) here in the UK.

[Bane]

Ugh. That's really awful. I live in the UK too, and I've heard very little about "conversion" attempts.

I used to live in South Africa, and when I had a breakdown, I ended up seeing a preacher's wife. She was a battleaxe, that one. Of course, over here, I've never gone to see fundies, but that's because there's help for people who are or may be losing the plot.

[Worldtraveller]

The lady may be an ass, but she probably has a valid case. A university should teach people, not indoctrinate them, even if that indoctrination involves indoctrination to be less of an ass. You can't make a person empathize with others, that is a position they have to arrive at on their own accord.
This is bullshit. As noted, if the job requires that, maybe this wannabe martyr should find another line of work.

It's not really any different that a right wing fundybot going into pharmacy with the intent of not prescribing birth control pills.

I would love for some interviewer to ask that woman her views on Muslim cab drivers refusing certain passengers. :cool:

[Ray Moscow]

I understand there's been a long-running dispute between religious (mostly Christian) "counsellors" and the mostly secular state bodies that license counsellors to practise. Religious counsellors usually want to get people to turn to the Lord or at least religious principles (and thereby be healed), whereas this approach is considered unethical and ineffective by secular standards.

The Christian "counsellors" of course claim that they are being discriminated against.

[Monad]

Ugh. That's really awful. I live in the UK too, and I've heard very little about "conversion" attempts.

You can read more about it here:

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?v=info&ref=mf&gid=284213565804

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/features/the-exgay-files-the-bizarre-world-of-gaytostraight-conversion-1884947.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/feb/09/conversion-therapy-homosexuality

of course when I say it's becoming more common I mean that in a relative sense - it's still thankfully uncommon but it's significant enough a concern for several professional bodies representing therapists, psychologists etc to issue firm statements condemning the practice and rightly saying there is no place for it in our practices. I think more needs to be done to strike people off though for such crimes against humanity - it is not simply an ethical question in relation to professional misconduct but one of human rights.

[Monad]

The Christian "counsellors" of course claim that they are being discriminated against.

They are not counsellors - that is part of the problem, that unlike with medical doctors and a few distinct evidence based therapies like Occupational and Physiotherapy, in the UK a person can still call themselves a counsellor or therapist without professional training, accreditation and licensing.

(tbh you still get too many fake podiatrists/chiropodists and still even some "physios" although this should not happen)

[Monad]

http://www.core-issues.org/uploads/Setting_Love_in_Order_A5_websmlspreads.pdf

http://www.core-issues.org/

[Monad]

Fuck - that Core Issues site is:

maintained and developed by Mike Davidson (BTh., PhD)

who is a fairly well known educator and has won awards (not for anti homosexual bigotry):

http://www.michaeldavidson.co.uk/index.html

and this is his blog:

http://mike-core-issues.blogspot.com/

if he comes to speak at my University I will make sure people know what his agenda is (I notice the fucker lists "Gender and race issues" as an "area of expertise")

[Ray Moscow]

Welcome to Christian counselling, where the experts don't know their ass from a hole in the ground and are willing to share that knowledge for a reasonable fee or love offering.

[Monad]

lol "We are not anti gay"

http://www.narth.com/docs/addresses.html

NARTH defends the rights of clients to seek treatment for unwanted homosexual attractions. Individuals who are dissatisfied with their unwanted homosexual attractions and enter therapy seeking change should be respected and not be coerced into embracing identities which clash with their deeply held values or religious beliefs.

So what if someone wanted to be treated for their unwanted heterosexual tendencies?

[Roo St. Gallus]

Or their unwanted fundamentalist tendencies?

Something actually treatable.

[Aca]

http://www.telladf.org/userdocs/KeetonComplaint.pdf

Text of the lawsuit

44. Miss Keeton asked Dr. Anderson-Wiley how her Christian convictions are any
less acceptable than those a Buddhist or Muslim student may possess. Dr. Anderson-Wiley
stated, “Christians see this population as sinners.”

45. Miss Keeton responded to Dr. Anderson-Wiley that all people are sinners,
including herself, and she would be happy to concede that to anyone, in any population.

46. Dr. Anderson-Wiley, holding her hands out to represent the two options, told Miss Keeton that she had a choice of standing by the Bible or by the ACA Code of Ethics.

47. Miss Keeton stated if there is no middle ground that conforms to both, her fidelity is to the Bible.