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DMB
31 Jul 2010, 09:52 AM
Military intervention in Afghanistan did break the Taleban's almost complete control, but they still have power. In any case the normal treatment of women is abysmal.

http://www.france24.com/en/20100727-worst-thing-be-afghan-woman

Despite the despair in her voice and the obvious emotional trauma she is struggling to cope with, Shabnam would be considered lucky by many women in Afghanistan.

She has found a refuge where she is safe from the physical and mental abuse millions of Afghan women endure, simply because they were born female.

The shelter offers counselling and legal advice to ensure her constitutional rights are respected. She can stay as long as she wants.

Few women make it this far. . .

. . . In reality, however, despite their constitutional rights, women continue to be treated as chattels and slaves in the name of religion and tradition.

Anecdotal examples abound of young women betrothed as toddlers, exchanged for fighting dogs or to pay debts, beaten and raped by their husbands, jailed by their families for refusing arranged marriages, murdered for the family's "honour," becoming mothers as soon as their bodies are ready, barred from leaving their homes. . .

. . . "Running away is seen as a sign of guilt, of adultery. Many women who run away, when they are picked up by the police, are sent straight to prison," Hagan said.

Gul Andam, a Pashtun woman of 24 with a distinctive nomadic tattoo between her waxed eyebrows, spent a year in prison, accused of 'zina', the crime of having sex outside marriage.

Her brothers sent her to prison, she said, after she had a religious wedding ceremony with the man she loved and refused to marry a man they had chosen for her.

Both she and her husband, an ethnic Hazara, were sentenced to two years in prison after her brothers convinced a court they were not legally married, she said.

When she was released after serving half the sentence, her brothers continued to insist that she marry the man they had chosen for her.

"They told me that if I did not marry that man, they would kill me," she said.

Yahzi
02 Aug 2010, 10:51 PM
In any case the normal treatment of women is abysmal.
Why are you blaming this on the Taliban? As far as I can tell, it is the normal behavior for that culture.

True, at one point in the past (like 1960), the normal culture was suppressed by a central government that imposed more Western values at gunpoint, but that was only ever in the cities.

This is why the Taliban succeeds there: because the people, by and large, agree with them. Even most of the women do.

This is what makes nation-building and liberation so hard.

I freed a thousand slaves I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves.

premjan
08 Aug 2010, 03:22 PM
Religious fundamentalism is recurrent but not entirely normal in Afghanistan I think.

DMB
08 Aug 2010, 05:49 PM
Afghanistan was relatively liberal before the 1960s.

richardtheatheist
08 Aug 2010, 05:51 PM
Those people are barbarians. Our intervention there was only bound to go one way, because we refuse to face the reality. The current fighting represents the failure of cultural relativism. Some cultures have no redeeming qualities, and they only way to fix them is to wipe them off the map.

columbus
08 Aug 2010, 07:26 PM
This is why the Taliban succeeds there: because the people, by and large, agree with them. Even most of the women do.

This is what makes nation-building and liberation so hard.

I freed a thousand slaves I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves.

This is the fundamental(ist) problem. The Afghani people by and large support the Taliban. Of course, it doesn't help US credibility that we did also. Nor that we dropped Afghanistan, women, children, and all, like a used kleenex once we had accomplished our goal of embarrassing the USSR. We built up the Taliban, ourselves, knowing full well what they espoused.

There is an old fable, maybe Aesop, about a frog and a scorpion that is highly appropos to this problem.

A big part of the reason that I oppose just declaring victory in Afghanistan and leaving is that I think we will be doing the same thing all over again. Leaving the people to suffer and re-inforcing their belief that the Taliban is more powerful than godless outsiders and their nonsensical beliefs about womens rights and such will not be much different than what we did in the 80s.

Tom

premjan
09 Aug 2010, 12:45 AM
The country has been through very traumatic wars. The Taliban can be seen as sort of scar tissue resulting from years of refugeeism in Pakistan, and the absolute breakdown of social norms etc.