Sexual Discrimination

[Notta]

I'm old enough that I can remember, and have experienced many, many times, blatant sexual discrimination against women. One would have thought that by 2009, things would be radically different.

However, a certain occurrence that has been repeated now FOUR times in the past WEEK has me wondering what the hell is going on.

I travel for business. A lot. Up to 15 or more times a year. When I do, I have an expense account and I wear what I consider to be my 'power suits' -- tailored business attire for women.

And I travel alone. I end up going out to restaurants for most of my meals. Last week I was in New Orleans. Tonight I'm in Bethesda, MD.

So I go to the restaurant (not 4 star, but not mass-market chains, either), tell them I'm alone, and get seated. Invariably, someone seats me at the very back of the restaurant, near the kitchen entrance, or far over in some corner. I didn't think much about it in New Orleans, as it is obviously a tourist town, and there were a lot of people at the same conference (several thousand) that I was attending. But tonight I ended up following the headwaiter through the ENTIRE restaurant until he found me a very small table right next to the kitchen doors. I thought, "he must want to save the bigger tables and the ones by the windows for large parties of people." After ordering, I went to the restroom. I passed by no fewer than THREE men, all apparently dining alone, each at a bigger booth AND by the windows!

I had already ordered, or I would have asked for a different seat. Do you suppose these waiters seat me far away from the other diners because a women eating alone is still seen as unseemly? Or do you think they give me a shitty seat because many women do not complain about such treatment (as many men would)? Or what?

But I'm getting damned sick and tired of being treated like a second class citizen because I travel alone and like it! (Taxi drivers will pass me by to pick up a man standing a couple of feet away, too. I usually have to call for a taxi at my hotel to avoid this.)

I can tell you this, though -- the NEXT time I get the shitty seat at a restaurant I'll tell them I want a better one or I'm leaving. My money is as good as a man's, and I tip extravagantly if I'm treated well. If this had happened in the same city I would think nothing of it, but thinking back on my travels it happens at least once in every place I stay more than one night.

Do any of the other women on this board have current examples of sexual discrimination they encounter? (Other than the infamous car salesmen who say, "Bring your husband/boyfriend and we'll talk.")

[LoneWolf]

Well, I wasn’t there but it could also be a combination of coincidence and confirmation bias on your part. Half the time I dine alone I’m given similar seating to what you received. Often times there are better tables that are empty. And often times there are better tables with women eating alone sitting at them.

What is most likely is they are spreading the customers out amongst the wait staff and by the luck of the draw you came in when the next waiter/waitress up was assigned to the area in which you were seated.

But regardless, if you don’t like where they have seated you just ask to sit somewhere else. I would bet good money they will move you. I bet you don’t even have to threaten to leave.

That being said, sexism still exists and maybe you did get those seats because you are a woman dining alone. But it wouldn’t be the first conclusion that I jump to.

[Christina]

I think that it's more about being alone than being female because I've heard men complain about the same thing on business trips. I think that maybe restaurants can spot an out-of-towner and know you won't be back often if at all anyway. I understand being seated at a tiny table but I usually try to point out one that I'd prefer if they try to stick me by the kitchen or bathroom doors.

I can't really complain about the expected levels of condescension at auto and hardware stores because unfortunately I fit the stereotype when it comes to those things. My partner deals with those parts of life so I rarely have to face it. The only gender bashing or blatant discrimination that I ever see is online.

[Brianna]

I'm old enough that I can remember, and have experienced many, many times, blatant sexual discrimination against women. One would have thought that by 2009, things would be radically different.

However, a certain occurrence that has been repeated now FOUR times in the past WEEK has me wondering what the hell is going on.

I travel for business. A lot. Up to 15 or more times a year. When I do, I have an expense account and I wear what I consider to be my 'power suits' -- tailored business attire for women.

And I travel alone. I end up going out to restaurants for most of my meals. Last week I was in New Orleans. Tonight I'm in Bethesda, MD.

So I go to the restaurant (not 4 star, but not mass-market chains, either), tell them I'm alone, and get seated. Invariably, someone seats me at the very back of the restaurant, near the kitchen entrance, or far over in some corner. I didn't think much about it in New Orleans, as it is obviously a tourist town, and there were a lot of people at the same conference (several thousand) that I was attending. But tonight I ended up following the headwaiter through the ENTIRE restaurant until he found me a very small table right next to the kitchen doors. I thought, "he must want to save the bigger tables and the ones by the windows for large parties of people." After ordering, I went to the restroom. I passed by no fewer than THREE men, all apparently dining alone, each at a bigger booth AND by the windows!

I had already ordered, or I would have asked for a different seat. Do you suppose these waiters seat me far away from the other diners because a women eating alone is still seen as unseemly? Or do you think they give me a shitty seat because many women do not complain about such treatment (as many men would)? Or what?

But I'm getting damned sick and tired of being treated like a second class citizen because I travel alone and like it! (Taxi drivers will pass me by to pick up a man standing a couple of feet away, too. I usually have to call for a taxi at my hotel to avoid this.)

I can tell you this, though -- the NEXT time I get the shitty seat at a restaurant I'll tell them I want a better one or I'm leaving. My money is as good as a man's, and I tip extravagantly if I'm treated well. If this had happened in the same city I would think nothing of it, but thinking back on my travels it happens at least once in every place I stay more than one night.

Do any of the other women on this board have current examples of sexual discrimination they encounter? (Other than the infamous car salesmen who say, "Bring your husband/boyfriend and we'll talk.")

How about next time you just request a spot? I see a spot I want and if it is open, I ask for it. I've never been refused. Alone or with someone. Or sit at the bar if they have one, even if I am not drinking. The bartenders usually are very friendly.

[Garnet]

I usually sit at the bar when I travel on business. I've found that I get the best service there and oddly enough, people don't bother me if I've got my face buried in a book. I'm more likely to be bothered by some well-meaning person if I'm sitting at a table. Go figure.

[Loren Pechtel]

I think that it's more about being alone than being female because I've heard men complain about the same thing on business trips. I think that maybe restaurants can spot an out-of-towner and know you won't be back often if at all anyway. I understand being seated at a tiny table but I usually try to point out one that I'd prefer if they try to stick me by the kitchen or bathroom doors.

Yes, I think that has a lot to do with it. You're probably not repeat business anyway, save the good tables for customers they hope to lure back.

The few times I've dined alone as a business traveler I've not been very impressed with seating, either. It's not really something I've cared much about, though.

[Loren Pechtel]

How about next time you just request a spot? I see a spot I want and if it is open, I ask for it. I've never been refused. Alone or with someone. Or sit at the bar if they have one, even if I am not drinking. The bartenders usually are very friendly.

My wife has been turned down a couple of times when asking--because she had the bad luck to ask for a seat in a section that wasn't currently open.

[PostMortem]

I'm not suggesting that this is necessarily related to the OP, but unfortunately there is a common belief in the restaurant industry that women don't tip as well as men. I don't believe it, but it was something I used to hear when I worked in food service. That was quite a few years ago though, so ideas may have changed.

[Brianna]

I'm not suggesting that this is necessarily related to the OP, but unfortunately there is a common belief in the restaurant industry that women don't tip as well as men. I don't believe it, but it was something I used to hear when I worked in food service. That was quite a few years ago though, so ideas may have changed.

I think its probably true.
I tend to tip based on how cute I think the waiter is. I will leave absolutely NO tip if the waitress calls me honey one too many times.

[Goldie]

I have heard that waitstaff think women, especially alone, are poor tippers. This couldn't be further from the truth because I tip better than any man I know.
But...I HAVE heard that.
Still...if you don't like where they are seating you, tell them. I do it all of the time whether my family is with me or not.

And...I don't want to go into detail right now...but...yes sexism is still alive and well, I can assure you.

[Notta]

I have heard that waitstaff think women, especially alone, are poor tippers. This couldn't be further from the truth because I tip better than any man I know.
But...I HAVE heard that.
Still...if you don't like where they are seating you, tell them. I do it all of the time whether my family is with me or not.

And...I don't want to go into detail right now...but...yes sexism is still alive and well, I can assure you.
I work with scientists in the 'hard science' fields. Sexism, overt and covert, is rampant.

[Goldie]

I have heard that waitstaff think women, especially alone, are poor tippers. This couldn't be further from the truth because I tip better than any man I know.
But...I HAVE heard that.
Still...if you don't like where they are seating you, tell them. I do it all of the time whether my family is with me or not.

And...I don't want to go into detail right now...but...yes sexism is still alive and well, I can assure you.
I work with scientists in the 'hard science' fields. Sexism, overt and covert, is rampant.

I know what you mean. I was a woman in charge. Some men thought that was sexy...others took offence... either way, it should have been about my ability, not my sex.
I did a good job, so...I have no regrets. If I hadn't gotten sick, I'd probably be in charge of state agencies by now. :(

I've always worked in a man's world...and had to work twice as hard just to get anywhere and "prove" myself.

[Christina]

I didn't find people working in tech to be particularly sexist. There were always a much smaller proportion of women programmers everywhere, especially in the early 80s, and the elitism and snobbery were more about how good and fast you were than about what gender you happened to be. I only worked for one Director that was blatantly sexist and he was put on notice for it almost immediately and was gone 6 months later. That's like 3 seconds in government time. I wonder if the fact that most of us didn't need graduate degrees has anything to do with it.

None of my teams ever seemed to mind a female PM. They sure as hell didn't want to have to dress up and do it.

[Joykins]

I don't know if it was sexism or not. I'm with Garnet with the at-the-bar-with-a-book when I dine alone.

I do work in Bethesda and now I'm wondering where you went.

[LoneWolf]

I'm not suggesting that this is necessarily related to the OP, but unfortunately there is a common belief in the restaurant industry that women don't tip as well as men. I don't believe it, but it was something I used to hear when I worked in food service. That was quite a few years ago though, so ideas may have changed.

Interesting. When I delivered pizzas back in the day I found the opposite to be true. Women tended to tip better than men. Maybe women tip men better than they tip women and maybe men tip women better than they tip men? I’d like to think gender doesn’t play a part in how I tip.

[Brother Daniel]

I'm a former pizza deliverer also. I never noticed a male/female difference in tipping.

I did notice that rich people don't tip, though. :mad:

[DMB]

I'm a former pizza deliverer also. I never noticed a male/female difference in tipping.

I did notice that rich people don't tip, though. :mad:

That's how they stay rich. :D

[Brother Daniel]

That's probably what they think. But I don't buy it. Seriously, tips to service industry workers would be a tiny drop in the bucket for these people.

ETA: Back in those days, my wages were my rent, and my tips were my food. I had no other money.

[Loren Pechtel]

I didn't find people working in tech to be particularly sexist. There were always a much smaller proportion of women programmers everywhere, especially in the early 80s, and the elitism and snobbery were more about how good and fast you were than about what gender you happened to be. I only worked for one Director that was blatantly sexist and he was put on notice for it almost immediately and was gone 6 months later. That's like 3 seconds in government time. I wonder if the fact that most of us didn't need graduate degrees has anything to do with it.

None of my teams ever seemed to mind a female PM. They sure as hell didn't want to have to dress up and do it.

Also, even apparent sexism in tech is often just joking because competent female techs are rare.

[Loren Pechtel]

That's probably what they think. But I don't buy it. Seriously, tips to service industry workers would be a tiny drop in the bucket for these people.

ETA: Back in those days, my wages were my rent, and my tips were my food. I had no other money.

I think it's part of a more general trend--they don't pay anything they don't have to.

[Brother Daniel]

I think it's part of a more general trend--they don't pay anything they don't have to.
Hence the 10,000 sq.ft. homes and the multiple extra-showy motor vehicles. :rolleyes:

[Christina]

Also, even apparent sexism in tech is often just joking because competent female techs are rare.

It may be changing now but females at all levels have been relatively rare, competent or not. When we did recruitments at least 90% of the applicants were always male. We got shit from Personnel all the time for not hiring enough women but hardly any ever applied and we weren't going to hire them if they weren't the top candidate. None of the female programmers that I've worked with had gotten computer science degrees and had taken a few classes in one or 2 4th generation languages and could write basic code but had no idea of how computers actually worked and couldn't think outside of their little area of expertise. Most of the men had come out of college with degrees and at my first few jobs I was the only woman with one.

I remember reading something a while ago that said that women were still not very interested in it because it was seen as boring. :dunno:

[Garnet]

The breakdown of developers here is:

Females 4
Males 10

All of them are from India.

[Joykins]

The breakdown of developers here is:

Females 4
Males 10

All of them are from India.

Since the latest rounds of layoffs, I'm the only woman of a team of 8 data engineers.

[Garnet]

The BA split where I work is 50/50...but then, there are only two BAs. :D

[Christina]

The BA split where I work is 50/50...but then, there are only two BAs. :D

Now that I think of it, the only decent ones that I ever had were women. The male BAs all totally sucked at it and even on tiny projects the male programmers never got the requirements right and the BAs had to do it for them.

Maybe men just don't know how to listen. :evil:

[Notta]

I don't know if it was sexism or not. I'm with Garnet with the at-the-bar-with-a-book when I dine alone.

I do work in Bethesda and now I'm wondering where you went.
Just a restaurant on the border between Bethesda/Rockville.

I do contract work for NIH from time to time and have to go down there for overnights.

[Notta]

I'm not suggesting that this is necessarily related to the OP, but unfortunately there is a common belief in the restaurant industry that women don't tip as well as men. I don't believe it, but it was something I used to hear when I worked in food service. That was quite a few years ago though, so ideas may have changed.

Interesting. When I delivered pizzas back in the day I found the opposite to be true. Women tended to tip better than men. Maybe women tip men better than they tip women and maybe men tip women better than they tip men? I’d like to think gender doesn’t play a part in how I tip.
My husband still believes that a 15% tip is very generous. Poor service gets no tip.

I tip 15% for shitty service, and up to 50% for truly outstanding service. (Probably because I worked as a waitress in my teens and early 20s and remember getting shafted most of the time from families [worst tippers] and teen-aged customers.)

[dancer_rnb]

I tip 25 -30 percent, unless I'm really annoyed. I think it is a myth that either men or women tip good or poor. What matters is whether they are cheap fuckers or not.

What annoys me are the people who think that because I tip what they think is a high amount they can tip less or not at all. :angry:They seem to come in both genders.

[sohy]

I usually tip 20% unless I know the waitress personally, then I really over tip. My husband tips about the same as I do. I have a younger friend that works as a waitress. It's dreadful how people tip her. She's a wonderful waitress. I know this from personal experience. I'm not the only one that asks to be seated in her section. There have been shifts when she has only made a total of 15-20 dollars, not counting the big 2 bucks an hour that the restaurant pay her. Sometimes I wonder if people know how low the minimum wage is for wait staff. Maybe they don't care.

I can't remember any recent examples of being discriminated against due to my being a female, but I work in one of the most paternalistic profession ever so I have past examples. There have been papers and at least one book written about the paternalism that influenced the nursing profession. I just don't work around any doctors anymore and when I do have to reach one, I either speak with his/her nurse or fax my report. The ones that will actually come to the phone and speak to me are always the most congenial, respectful ones.

Due to my past bad experiences with sexist male physicians, all of my primary care providers are now female, except my dentist. He's nurturing and gentle, traits that are more commonly found in female care providers.

[DMB]

Don't you think it's an iniquitous system where people are expected to live on tips? I hate the whole tipping idea. You go to school and don't tip the teacher. You go to hospital and don't tip the nurse or doctor. Why can't people be paid a living wage and not have to have tips?

When I can afford it (and that may mean never again), my favourite holiday is cruising in the Hebrides on a tiny little ship called the Hebridean Princess. (http://www.hebridean.co.uk/ship/index.html). One of the best things about them is that they have a strict no-tipping policy. This means that they charge more upfront than many cruise lines, but it's all-in. You know exactly what you're paying.

[Loren Pechtel]

Don't you think it's an iniquitous system where people are expected to live on tips? I hate the whole tipping idea. You go to school and don't tip the teacher. You go to hospital and don't tip the nurse or doctor. Why can't people be paid a living wage and not have to have tips?

When I can afford it (and that may mean never again), my favourite holiday is cruising in the Hebrides on a tiny little ship called the Hebridean Princess. (http://www.hebridean.co.uk/ship/index.html). One of the best things about them is that they have a strict no-tipping policy. This means that they charge more upfront than many cruise lines, but it's all-in. You know exactly what you're paying.

The thing about tips is that it ties a person's income very directly to their performance.

I have no problem with tipping waiters but I don't like tipping people in situations where I'm not otherwise paying them.

[Notta]

When I was in Japan, I was told emphatically that "no tipping" was a universal policy. It was an interesting way to interact with waiters, bellhops, and the like without trying to figure out what would be an appropriate tip at every turn.

[sohy]

I'd like to see the tip added to the bill. The current system is very unfair since many people are ignorant and/or cheap. We're going to pay for the service one way or another. If restaurants had to pay a living wage, they would up the price of the food. People would probably still tip something because at least in our culture, it's an ingrained habit. Just add the 18 or 20 per cent to the bill for gratuity and let the customer decide if she wants to be more generous.

[Joykins]

I don't know if it was sexism or not. I'm with Garnet with the at-the-bar-with-a-book when I dine alone.

I do work in Bethesda and now I'm wondering where you went.
Just a restaurant on the border between Bethesda/Rockville.

I do contract work for NIH from time to time and have to go down there for overnights.

Some of those restaurants get kind of snooty but I can't afford snooty when I'm not on the expense account so I usually end up at the Austin Grill!

[Joykins]

Oh, and I tip 15% for bad service, 20% for good service, and maybe 25% for excellent service.

[Goldie]

Don't you think it's an iniquitous system where people are expected to live on tips? I hate the whole tipping idea. You go to school and don't tip the teacher. You go to hospital and don't tip the nurse or doctor. Why can't people be paid a living wage and not have to have tips?

When I can afford it (and that may mean never again), my favourite holiday is cruising in the Hebrides on a tiny little ship called the Hebridean Princess. (http://www.hebridean.co.uk/ship/index.html). One of the best things about them is that they have a strict no-tipping policy. This means that they charge more upfront than many cruise lines, but it's all-in. You know exactly what you're paying.

I think this is long over-due.

If someone is a very bad waiter, complain to the management / owner, if someone is very good, do the same.
I think working for tips is a joke. These people should be paid a living wage, end of story.

[Daisy]

I used to work at a restaurant and we always tried to fill the worst seats first simply because they are the hardest to seat and we wanted to distribute the customers evenly to all the waiters and waitresses.

If you see a seat you'd prefer, simply ask for it. Or ask if you can have a booth or a window, if that's what you want. Unless they are packed or reserved, you'll probably get it - but you have to ask.

[Worldtraveller]

I have heard that waitstaff think women, especially alone, are poor tippers. This couldn't be further from the truth because I tip better than any man I know.
But...I HAVE heard that.
Still...if you don't like where they are seating you, tell them. I do it all of the time whether my family is with me or not.

And...I don't want to go into detail right now...but...yes sexism is still alive and well, I can assure you.
I work with scientists in the 'hard science' fields. Sexism, overt and covert, is rampant.

I know what you mean. I was a woman in charge. Some men thought that was sexy...others took offence... either way, it should have been about my ability, not my sex.
I did a good job, so...I have no regrets. If I hadn't gotten sick, I'd probably be in charge of state agencies by now. :(

I've always worked in a man's world...and had to work twice as hard just to get anywhere and "prove" myself.
Yabbut, yer like...hawt!! ;) *ducks and runs*

I remember when I waited tables (that was a loooong time ago), I think I averaged slightly higher tips from tables with single women or small groups of only women, but I was an admittedly shameless flirt. (Hard to believe, huh? :p)

I think the seating thing was probably a function of putting you in a section where the next waitstaff in rotation was due to be seated.

I used to hate getting certain sections, knowing they were less prefferred tables.

[rlogan]

To the OP - I have to consciously be assertive in situations like you describe. I'm short, quiet, and polite (that's right). When some brusque person barges in after me the cashier, waitstaff, or attendant overlooks me and tends to them.

And discrimination works both ways. Just try to get your male professor's attention when some hottie with an IQ of 50 wearing shorts wants it too. When I ran my tae kwon do school I had to pry my assistant instructors off the girls to get them paying attention to mr. fatso or mr. geek.

Cops giving warnings instead of tickets to women. Women's night at bars but not men's nights.

It's injustice I tells ya...

[Notta]

To the OP - I have to consciously be assertive in situations like you describe. I'm short, quiet, and polite (that's right). When some brusque person barges in after me the cashier, waitstaff, or attendant overlooks me and tends to them.

And discrimination works both ways. Just try to get your male professor's attention when some hottie with an IQ of 50 wearing shorts wants it too. When I ran my tae kwon do school I had to pry my assistant instructors off the girls to get them paying attention to mr. fatso or mr. geek.

Cops giving warnings instead of tickets to women. Women's night at bars but not men's nights.

It's injustice I tells ya...I've met plenty of women who were given preferential treatment due to the size of their tits. Fortunately for women, this type of treatment only lasts for a decade or two, until gravity and age take their toll. Then, suddenly, it's the smarter woman who learned to rely on her brain who starts pulling ahead in the gender wars...

But I went back to the same restaurant this evening (on a repeat business trip), and when the waiter started to seat me, I asked for a seat by the windows, so I got a nice booth instead of an itty-bitty table in the back. I should have been more assertive the first time!

[rlogan]

But I went back to the same restaurant this evening (on a repeat business trip), and when the waiter started to seat me, I asked for a seat by the windows, so I got a nice booth instead of an itty-bitty table in the back. I should have been more assertive the first time!

Yay! I'm going to try to remind myself to be focused. Weird to think that you have to be "on top of your game" at a restaurant. But I guess so...

[JamesBannon]

The BA split where I work is 50/50...but then, there are only two BAs. :D

Now that I think of it, the only decent ones that I ever had were women. The male BAs all totally sucked at it and even on tiny projects the male programmers never got the requirements right and the BAs had to do it for them.

Maybe men just don't know how to listen. :evil:
They were probably former geeks! ;)

[Christina]

I've never met a BA ot PM that didn't suck unless they had some prior tech experience, even if just at a low level. There's some truth that being a PM or BA is the same no matter what the project is but IMO that's bull when it comes to tech projects. If you can't at least follow the conversation of your engineers and designers, you're toast and you can't manage effectively if you don't know what it takes to build and install a large system.

[Garnet]

I've never met a BA ot PM that didn't suck unless they had some prior tech experience, even if just at a low level. There's some truth that being a PM or BA is the same no matter what the project is but IMO that's bull when it comes to tech projects. If you can't at least follow the conversation of your engineers and designers, you're toast and you can't manage effectively if you don't know what it takes to build and install a large system.

Ahem.

I have no prior tech experience.

[Christina]

So how did you get to the point where you knew what level of detail to get to and how to organize it and communicate with your tech guys? Did you come in from the other side as a super-user or analyst? I shouldn't have left them out because if you are on the customer end of installing and testing new systems you get enough knowledge to handle the programmers.

[Garnet]

I was a legal assistant/supervisor and a core member of the user team for a statewide implementation of a child support enforcement system in Arizona. I was their worst pain-in-the-ass user...so they hired me in systems. :D

My first year was an intense learning curve but even then, I was able to produce top notch requirements and functional design documents. I was also a supervisor of a group of 10 BAs for about 3 years.

Functional design is just something I get. Wow, I just realized that I've been doing this gig for almost 12 years now...

[Christina]

That makes sense. I've worked with a few BAs that came over after leading implementation teams from the customer angle and they were very good at understanding how the end users view things, what makes it user-friendly from their point of view and they can translate between the techies and the end users. Usually the BAs are the only ones that can be certain that they've nailed the requirements because the programmers think that their business processes can be changed easily when they're inconvenient and the end users are sometimes so confused that they're smiling and nodding just to get out of the room.

I take back my comment, or at least I'm expanding on it : )

[Garnet]

I often describe my job as that of a translator between users and developers. It's particularly apt now when I'm working in an environment where none of the developers are Americans and quite a few of them speak heavily accented English. I love working with them, though. The developers on my team right now are very talented, creative and eager to please the client. We're having a lot of fun on my current project.

[Christina]

I would literally get last minute calls to come into a meeting and translate between 2 groups that don't speak the same language or even worse, used the same terms to describe different things. It was a joke that my job title should have been 'Translator in Chief". I'm a firm believer that if you really understand something you can break it down in terms that non-technical people can understand and save months of QA headaches. People who purposely talk in high-tech acronyms to sound smart and important annoy the hell out of me.

[Garnet]

Amen, sister!

[Joykins]

I've never met a BA ot PM that didn't suck unless they had some prior tech experience, even if just at a low level. There's some truth that being a PM or BA is the same no matter what the project is but IMO that's bull when it comes to tech projects. If you can't at least follow the conversation of your engineers and designers, you're toast and you can't manage effectively if you don't know what it takes to build and install a large system.

I had no prior tech experience when I started as what they called a Data Analyst. They wanted someone who knew the business from head to toe and was willing and able to learn the tech stuff.

[Joykins]

Usually the BAs are the only ones that can be certain that they've nailed the requirements because the programmers think that their business processes can be changed easily when they're inconvenient

Ain't that the truth. And we've outsource the programming and outsourced programmers are the WORST at thinking that (& inflating sizings to match). I've had to knock heads.

[dancer_rnb]

I would literally get last minute calls to come into a meeting and translate between 2 groups that don't speak the same language or even worse, used the same terms to describe different things. It was a joke that my job title should have been 'Translator in Chief". I'm a firm believer that if you really understand something you can break it down in terms that non-technical people can understand and save months of QA headaches. People who purposely talk in high-tech acronyms to sound smart and important annoy the hell out of me.

This just shows that like me, you are old. You remember when people used ordinary language to communicate.

When did people start saying metrics?

[Christina]

When did people start saying metrics?

About the time I decided that I was past the point of ever going to a leadership seminar again. They just kept inventing more and more complicated ways of saying the same things that management best practices have been saying for decades. When in doubt, hold some meetings, invent some more buzzwords and throw a seminar or two. It's the private industry version of forming a committee.

It's not that hard to listen for the disconnect between 2 confused parties who don't know what the other one is talking about. The hard part is getting them to shut up and listen to each other.

[Joykins]

metrics (n) - arbitrary measurements of "productivity" set by managers and gamed by programmers.

[Christina]

I had a manager at one of my first programming jobs that actually had us counting lines of code every day to show how many we were writing and prove that we were working. Even if the idea wasn't ludicrous in itself, she didn't realize that all lines of code are not equal. We started adding a billing line for counting lines overhead to our timecards and that practice ended as soon as the people who paid the bills saw it.

[Notta]

Am I watching a thread hijack in process??

[Brianna]

Am I watching a thread hijack in process??

You betcha.

[Joykins]

http://www.buffettworld.com/forum/forumimages/HIJACK_onplane.gif

[Christina]

*suppresses countless Pendarica moderation jokes

I'm sure that one of our wonderful lovely admins will be along as soon as they have time and they'll split the thread if they think that's the best thing to do. We really shouldn't bother them or waste their time on unimportant things. I'll do my best not to get off-topic again.

:innocent:

[Brianna]

What? there was a topic here?