Bill aims to end forced marriages in Scotland

[neilstone40]

BBC News: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-11442851

Some potentially good news on the horizon...

Ministers have unveiled proposals which they say will help consign forced marriages to the "history books".

The bill would, for the first time in the UK, make it a criminal offence to breach laws protecting people from being forced into getting wed against their will in Scotland.

Breaking the proposed laws could lead to a prison sentence of up to two years, a fine, or both.

The bill would enable courts to issue forced marriage protection orders.

Those at risk, or anyone worried about someone's welfare, would be able to apply for an order, which could ensure people were taken to a place of safety or help those in danger of being taken abroad for marriage.

Deputy First Minister Nicola Sturgeon revealed details of the legislation during a visit to the Shakti Women's Aid in Edinburgh, where support workers provide help and assistance to young people who risk being forced into marriage.

She said: "Forced marriage has no place in 21st Century Scotland. We know people who refuse are often subjected to threats, assault, captivity or worse at the hands of their own family.

"This important bill will help confine this abusive behaviour to the history books, providing flexible legal support to allow victims to take control and get their lives back on track.

"And Scotland is leading the way in ensuring that anyone who flouts a protection order - and anyone aiding or abetting them - will feel the full force of the law."



Further information on the proposed bill here: http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/s3/bills/53-forcedMarriage/index.htm

[Roo St. Gallus]

Forced marriage? In Scotland? Really?

Is this a widespread problem? Or, a recently reintroduced one?

[neilstone40]

Forced marriage? In Scotland? Really?

Is this a widespread problem? Or, a recently reintroduced one?

It's quite prevalent mostly in the Muslim/Hindu community. Not as common amongst Sikhs but it does happen. Some instances in other south east Asian cultures too.

It tends to be young people who are taken abroad to be married, sometimes also to help others gain visas or are forced to remain in other countries against their will.

The legislation seems quite promising as there have been very few legal options previously unless assaults, threats or abductions have already taken place. There have been a few truly gifted individuals though who have creatively interpreted other recent legislation (such as the Adult Support and Protection Act) to assist people who are at risk of abduction, assault or other measures.

This is definately a big step forward though.

[Anne]

you need a law for that?

yikes.

[neilstone40]

you need a law for that?

yikes.

Erm, yeah...pretty much!

It's a big problem and also dovetails into the so called "honour killings" thing.

Quite often young people, particularly young females, go for a family holiday and simply don't return. Marriage planned without their knowledge or consent, next thing you're in a mountain village in Pakistan with no way of getting home, for example.

Passport confiscated or destroyed, young women then raped, forced to bear children, prevented from leaving, etc. Women often killed or horrendously assaulted if they refuse to co-operate or attempt to escape.

Some marriages also take place in Scotland under duress although it's difficult to prevent unless a registrar "smells a rat" at some point in the proceedings.

This law allows anyone who suspects the marriage is forced (rather than simply arranged) can apply for a restriction order.

The new law allows for restrictions to be put in place to prevent or annul marriages as well as protecting those being threatened. It's a long overdue attempt to break these archaic and misogynistic religious/cultural practices.

[David B]

you need a law for that?

yikes.

Are there no similar cases emerging in America from people coming from a culture of arranged and young marriages?

If some cases were to arise, what would happen to those who in effect kidnapped their own children and took them abroad for a forced marriage?

David

[Anne]

perhaps, but overall, I'd think that there are already existing laws (in the US and in Scotland) against rape, kidnapping, etc that would come into play here. If there is one thing I hate (and there are plenty of things I hate) it's too many fucking laws.

[Clivedurdle]

34 years ago I was a social worker in London for two teenagers who were shipped off to Cyprus to be married.

My immediate reaction is that the law as proposed is meaningless - in Scotland - forced marriages occur somewhere else in the world whilst the teenager is on holiday.

If they are extremely lucky this might be a second holiday after the fgm several years earlier.

And it is likely to be to a cousin so the risks to the children of hereditary issues are...

http://www.theahafoundation.org/

And again, this is primarily a Muslim issue.

[Clivedurdle]

It is more nuanced than the op suggests

http://news.scotsman.com/uk/Call-to-prosecute-the-husbands.6538333.jp

John Fotheringham, consultant at Fyfe Ireland Solicitors, experts in matrimonial law, said: "The literal shotgun marriage - marry this man or we'll kill you - is extremely rare. What is more likely is marry this man or we'll withdraw your university funding, or your mother will kill herself, or you'll bring shame on the family. That is still a forced marriage

[David B]

perhaps, but overall, I'd think that there are already existing laws (in the US and in Scotland) against rape, kidnapping, etc that would come into play here. If there is one thing I hate (and there are plenty of things I hate) it's too many fucking laws.

I'm not keen on too many laws, either.

I'd find it hard to believe, though, that the cultural prejudices of fairly recent immigrants to the USA from the areas where those cultural prejudices are prevalent don't lead to much the same sort of behaviours as in Britain, or the rest of Europe.

I'd guess that as a percentage there are less immigrants from those areas into the USA than to Britain and many parts of Europe, and I'd further guess that this sort of thing goes on quite widely among recent immigrants to the USA, but hasn't had the same sort of publicity.

What about honour killings, where people marry, or seek to marry, out of caste, or even to people outside the culture altogether? Does that happen in America, do you think? We get far too many cases reported over here.

David

[Clivedurdle]

Look at the AHA foundation link. It is happening in America, it gets reported as domestic incidents though, the dots are not joined up.

[Anne]

if it happens is not the discussion. Do we need new laws for them is.

Honor killings are illegal already, because murder is. Do we need a new law about them?

Underage marriage, rape, transporting women over state borders for sex are illegal. I'm sure lawyers here can load up on 20-30 more extant laws that already cover this. Why make new ones? Enforce the ones you have.

[David B]

if it happens is not the discussion. Do we need new laws for them is.

Honor killings are illegal already, because murder is. Do we need a new law about them?

Underage marriage, rape, transporting women over state borders for sex are illegal. I'm sure lawyers here can load up on 20-30 more extant laws that already cover this. Why make new ones? Enforce the ones you have.

State borders are one thing. Country borders another. What might happen if a young person is shipped out to Asia, and comes back married?

One question would be 'does the spouse gets citizenship, if the young person shipped out has citizenship'?

Another would be 'How would you know that the union was voluntary'? Especially if the young person were to believe, rightly or wrongly, that making a fuss might well result in their death.

David

[Anne]

and how does the law in Scotland address those last issues?

Laws in the US are formulated to be able to prosecute US citizens who engage in child prostitution (like in Thailand). O'm sure that those laws would also apply to protect other 'illegal' matches.

If there are laws about crossing an internal border for sex, don't you think that those would apply to international ones as well?

Spouses do not automatically get citizenship. Especially not if the US citizen is a minor/under age of consent.

[David B]

and how does the law in Scotland address those last issues?[quote]

I don't really understand that, on the basis of the reports I've read.

[quote]Laws in the US are formulated to be able to prosecute US citizens who engage in child prostitution (like in Thailand). O'm sure that those laws would also apply to protect other 'illegal' matches.

If there are laws about crossing an internal border for sex, don't you think that those would apply to international ones as well?

I'm not sure - rather as I'm not sure how the proposed Scottish law would work with them either.

Spouses do not automatically get citizenship. Especially not if the US citizen is a minor/under age of consent.

What about if the US citizen is not a minor or under the age of consent, but the spouse they are bringing in is?

The only vaguely similar case I remember is when Jerry Lee Lewis destroyed his career for a while in Britain by bringing his legal in Louisiana but not in Britain young wife on tour with him back in the days of Rock'n'Roll.

It's not an easy thing to legislate for, but forcing kids into arranged marriages seems something to be stood up against from where I'm coming from, and at least this proposed Scottish legislation makes that clear.

David

[Anne]

You then seem to have asked me a question that you can't answer yourself, after implying that I seem to be ignoring the problem in my own backyard. Now I'm confused.

JLL destroyed his career in the US as well, despite how legal that marriage was.

And I said, spouses do not automatically get citizenship. No matter anyone's age.

Perhaps it's a cultural thing. Arranged and forced marriages are anathema to US culture. We marry for love, which is why our divorce rate is so high. I recently read some interesting articles where Americanized Indians were discussing the pros and cons of arranged marriages (of consenting adults) versus the US style of love. But because arranged marriages are wrong inherently, I would think that we'd need fewer laws preventing them than a class based system where until recently it was still the norm for the Brits of a certain royal status.

Would the Scottish law have protected Charles from being forced to marry Diana?

[Berthold]

We marry for love, which is why our divorce rate is so high.
Is this a recommendation to do things American style? :dunno:

[DMB]

Arranged marriages are not the same thing as forced marriages.

[Anne]

Did Charles have a 'choice'?

[David B]

Did Charles have a 'choice'?

Sure. His great uncle was in much the same position, and made a different choice.

David

[Anne]

At a punishment very similar to many of the forced marriages discussed here. Ostracism.

Yes, there is a difference between a shotgun at a head and much milder force, but when you get right down to it, unless both parties went to a matchmaker and asked to be set up, it's 'forced'.

How can a head scarf elicit such anger and Charles' wasted life be brushed away?

[David B]

At a punishment very similar to many of the forced marriages discussed here. Ostracism.

Yes, there is a difference between a shotgun at a head and much milder force, but when you get right down to it, unless both parties went to a matchmaker and asked to be set up, it's 'forced'.

How can a head scarf elicit such anger and Charles' wasted life be brushed away?

I wonder how much the ostracism of the ex king was caused by his marriage - it's on record that the Queen Mum bitterly resented her husband having to take on the throne, sure - and how much was down to the his treachery during the war, which has only really come out to the public in recent years, but which the present royal family would surely have been aware.

David

[Anne]

There is good reason to believe that he never believed any threats of what would and did happen after he married, as well.

He made a choice, not to get out of an arranged marriage, but to marry someone the family didn't like, and he and she suffered. To me and my ilk, that's fine, because the system sucks, but to rail against 'forced' marriages and still accept it in your own culture is kinda hypocritical.

[DMB]

Who in the Royal family had a forced marriage? That is surely fantasising. Charles couldn't marry the woman he loved (Camilla) because when he was ready to get married, she was already married to someone else. With younger siblings and cousins there was no real pressure on him to get married at all.

[Anne]

right.

So he entered into a loveless marriage with a woman he didn't care for and didn't want to marry because he just felt like it.

[DMB]

If he wanted to remain heir to the throne there were restrictions on whom he could marry. But he could have done what his GG-grandfather Edward VII did and have strings of mistresses. He didn't have to marry at all. And he didn't have to remain heir to the throne. His real problem seems to have been that he really loved Camilla and wanted her above all else. But she was married.

[Rie]

And little ole Queen Victoria was no slouch in the sexual gratification stakes. Charles did a great wrong to Diana... for me that much is certain. And her legacy is the likeability of her sons. Charles isn't likeable... no PR team has managed it, but if you want a woman so badly that you clumsily let the press know that you want to be her tampon??????

[rcscwc]

Forced marriage? In Scotland? Really?

Is this a widespread problem? Or, a recently reintroduced one?
No. It targets certain communities, mostly Asians.

What can the law do if there is no complaint? Will the police have prior investigation, suo motto, into every marriage? Can the police do it without intrusion?

[rog]

They can offer protection in the event of a complaint.

[rcscwc]

There must already be some law to take care of that too.