Is saying a prayer the same thing as casting a spell?

[Pendaric]

A prayer is a request that a supernatural entity will cause something to happen in the real world. Does that class as the person saying a prayer actually casting a spell?

Given the various ceremonies and rituals, how far removed is Christianity from witchcraft anyway?

[reddhedd]

I think it's talking to yourself.

Wicca is a religion, so no, it's not that different.

[Pendaric]

I'm not suggesting that either option would actually have any effect, just that to all intents and purposes they are the same thing.

I have a feeling that most Christians might object to 'saying your prayers' being relabeled as 'casting your spells', but it seems to me that's what they are doing.

[MattShizzle]

There's a slight difference I'd say - that your asking God to do it rather than doing it yourself. Though the results will be exactly the same and thinking it will actually do anything is equally silly.

[BioBeing]

But anyone who has read enough fantasy knows that it is the Gods who give you magic power, so yes they are the same.

Now you know why fundies hate Harry Potter so much. They don't like the competition.

[DanB]

A prayer is a request that a supernatural entity will cause something to happen in the real world. Does that class as the person saying a prayer actually casting a spell?

Given the various ceremonies and rituals, how far removed is Christianity from witchcraft anyway?Yes and No? Are a casual wish, crossed fingers, or knocking on wood examples of prayers and spells?

Depends on the perspective/expectation of the individual. What degree of intent involves cathartic/therapeutic results as compared to actual measurable impacts on reality?

[Politesse]

Christian prayer occupies a space between spell-casting and meditation practices; individual prayer may fall anywhere along the spectrum between the two, because of the very diverse set of practices Christianity has incorporated under the name over the years. Corporate intercessory prayer is the form that most closely resembles a Wiccan ceremony, and it is fairly common among mainstream denominational Christianity. Evangelical group prayer is not as closely akin, since it actively strives not to incorporate ritual words of any kind, however unsuccessfully- this is an important aspect of spellcasting. Witchcraft deeply values tradition, where stadium Christianity tends to avoid it; that's the biggest point of departure, I think, as far as prayer goes. Not whether one does it, but how and why.

[Jobar]

When I was back there in seminary school
There was a person there
Who put forth the proposition
That you can petition the Lord with prayer
Petition the lord with prayer
Petition the lord with prayer
You cannot petition the lord with prayer!
-The Doors

I agree with Politesse that prayer *can* be more meditation than petition- consider Clarice Starling's prayer in the book Silence of the Lambs: "Teach us to care and not to care; teach us to be still."

However, most of the Christians I have known tend much more to petitionary prayer, from requests that their sports team win this week's game, or asking that some illness be healed.

[Politesse]

When I was back there in seminary school
There was a person there
Who put forth the proposition
That you can petition the Lord with prayer
Petition the lord with prayer
Petition the lord with prayer
You cannot petition the lord with prayer!
-The Doors

I agree with Politesse that prayer *can* be more meditation than petition- consider Clarice Starling's prayer in the book Silence of the Lambs: "Teach us to care and not to care; teach us to be still."

However, most of the Christians I have known tend much more to petitionary prayer, from requests that their sports team win this week's game, or asking that some illness be healed.
Oh, but it can vary some. I think casual prayer, among faithful and faithless alike, does often tend toward the "please don't let it get me" or "I hope I do well on this exam" varieties. Not that there's anything at all wrong with that or any other kind of propitiatory magic imo. But that's not the end-all. Take table grace for instance, at least theoretically rather the opposite thought and quite common in the Christian world. Or what has been called "accidental prayer", the rush of joy, wonder and gratitude one feels when witnessing wonders of nature or milestones of human life, no less or more common among Christians than anyone else, but certainly cast in a Christian cultural framework to someone who was raised in that subculture. "I see the stars, I hear the rolling thunder/Thy power throughout the universe displayed/Then sings my soul, my saviour God to thee/ how great thou art! how great thou art!" Hardly spellcraft, that. Though of course, Wiccans have their own cultural forms to describe that experience. The "dancing prayer" is a popular response. The Abundance/Gratitude Circle ritual is really based on the notion of trying to recreate the feeling within the group by opening one's eyes to the wondrous character of everyday abundances.

[Eudaimonist]

A prayer is a request that a supernatural entity will cause something to happen in the real world. Does that class as the person saying a prayer actually casting a spell?

They will probably say something like this:

A spell operates according to one's own power, or at least the belief that one has the power to cause supernatural effects with one's mind (it could be caused by demons instead, but what makes it a spell is that one believes it is one's own power that is at work).

A prayer is, OTOH, a request to God to do something.

A prayer is not a spell because it is not understood as having anything to do with one's own power.


eudaimonia,

Mark

[Ray Moscow]

A prayer is a request that a supernatural entity will cause something to happen in the real world. Does that class as the person saying a prayer actually casting a spell?

Given the various ceremonies and rituals, how far removed is Christianity from witchcraft anyway?


Yes, it's the same thing.

The difference is that most forms of witchcraft forbid spells to manipulate other people -- aka "black magic" -- whereas Christians do those all the time.

[Monad]

I agree with Politesse that prayer *can* be more meditation than petition

So "can" spell making and casting. Many pagan rituals involve deep meditative or even trance states. Also a lot of spell casting is not petitionary either - it's invocational or about extending control over forces.

[Free in Freeport]

Both are attempts to control things we have no control over, so yes.

[rog]

Imprecatory prayer seems a lot like an attempt at black magic to me.

http://freethinker.co.uk/2009/07/15/feel-the-love-one-christian-sacks-atheist-worker-another-prays-for-obamas-death/

"If he [Obama] does not turn to God and does not turn his life around I am asking God to enforce in imprecatory prayers throughout the scripture that would cause him death..."

[kennyc]

In most ways yes.

[Clivedurdle]

Politesse, I do not understand what you are arguing.

Are you arguing some xian prayer is somehow more authentic or what?

[Clivedurdle]

I wonder if there might be a class and culture vector here.

I was brought up Pentecostal, but the old quiet waiting on the Lords types where if you got speaking in tongues in the service it was once and was a formal prophecy with interpretation.

The Americans trundled in and mass produced it with everyone being holy rollers.

Anglicans can be more formal and liturgical.

I am used to casting hallelujahs and be healed in the name of the lawd hither and thither.

Not much liver of blaspheming Jew got used. Might have been fun having a cauldron a bubbling away by the pulpit!

[Politesse]

Politesse, I do not understand what you are arguing.

Are you arguing some xian prayer is somehow more authentic or what?

Why on earth would I say that? I have every respect for Wicca. Are you under the impression that whenever two things are different, one of them must be better? I can't see how you got that from my post, otherwise.

[Clivedurdle]

Because you have said elsewhere that you are a xian!

among faithful and faithless alike

[Clivedurdle]

Christian Spiritual Warfare: How to Cast Out Demons

Would you like to learn more about spiritual warfare and how to cast out demons, just like Jesus did? Learn the simple steps and examples of how to cast demons out of yourself or on behalf of another in Christian spiritual warfare. Discover whether or not it is always a good idea to take the authority and do so.


http://hubpages.com/hub/Christian-Spiritual-Warfare-How-to-Cast-Out-Demons

In this example - yes. But we are talking about the Holy Spirit, not evil spirits!

[Clivedurdle]

Why is it called casting out?

How to Cast on Stitches

http://knitting.about.com/od/learntoknit/ss/caston.htm

[Politesse]

Because you have said elsewhere that you are a xian!

among faithful and faithless alike

Faithless in that case was in reference to atheism, actually. My point was that moments of being overcome with awe and wonder are a universal experience, framed by but not exclusively owned by any particular faith, or non-faith. However, Christianity certainly does have a tradition surrounding and honoring that experience, which it considers to be a part of the prayer experience (and so does Wicca, as I pointed out in the ensuing sentences). And neither fall under what I would consider to be the practice of spell-casting as such.

[Clivedurdle]

What is it about spell casting that you do not like?

[Roo St. Gallus]

What is it about spell casting that you do not like?

When the spell fly lodges in the trees behind me. Or worse, me.

[Clivedurdle]

The word cast is fascinating - theatre, fishing, knitting and demons.

Why?

[Roo St. Gallus]

The word cast is fascinating - theatre, fishing, knitting and demons.

Why?

Don't forget orthopedic.

[Jobar]

Because you have said elsewhere that you are a xian!

among faithful and faithless alike

Clive, Politesse has said he is a theistic pantheist (http://secularcafe.org/showthread.php?t=5682).

[reddhedd]

The word cast is fascinating - theatre, fishing, knitting and demons.

Why?

Don't forget orthopedic.

As well as throwing, and molding.
Cast the first pitch,
a bronze casting,

And isn't there an archaic meaning of cast meaning a squint?

/derail

[Monad]

The word cast is fascinating - theatre, fishing, knitting and demons.

Why?

Don't forget orthopedic.

As well as throwing, and molding.
Cast the first pitch,
a bronze casting,

And isn't there an archaic meaning of cast meaning a squint?

/derail

Also worm shit

[Rie]

Cast is as in the old practice of divination when bones were cast.. as in thrown at random and the pattern was read or divined.. by i suppose a 'magic' person or maybe just anybody.

When you cast a spell I assume you are throwing it out to the universe to deal with. I don't think it means you yourself have the power here.

In Christianity, a prayer is also casting a request out to the powers that be. however Christians will never agree that there is any other power but that of Christ and his buddies. However I would love to hear this 'talking in tongues' that Baptist friends attribute to some power taking over the individual.

[Anne]

Yes, Rie. Cast simply means 'throw'.

[Politesse]

What is it about spell casting that you do not like?

Me? Nothing at all. I'm just answering the OP.

[Politesse]

Because you have said elsewhere that you are a xian!

among faithful and faithless alike

Clive, Politesse has said he is a theistic pantheist (http://secularcafe.org/showthread.php?t=5682).

Oh, I do consider myself a Christian as well, he's right enough in that.

[Clivedurdle]

Cast is as in the old practice of divination when bones were cast.. as in thrown at random and the pattern was read or divined.. by i suppose a 'magic' person or maybe just anybody.

When you cast a spell I assume you are throwing it out to the universe to deal with. I don't think it means you yourself have the power here.

In Christianity, a prayer is also casting a request out to the powers that be. however Christians will never agree that there is any other power but that of Christ and his buddies. However I would love to hear this 'talking in tongues' that Baptist friends attribute to some power taking over the individual.

As an ex pentecostal I can still speak in tongues - you must have come across it somewhere. It is a learned behaviour like riding a bike. The alleged best type is what is called singing in the spirit, where us humans actually harmonise.

It is assumed to be from the gods but actually it is another example of how us humans are pretty impressive all by ourselves sometimes.

Back to cast there is also casting lots.

So if it is all about throwing prayers around, maybe spiritual warfare involves spiritual spears and being spiritual bouncers?

(Xian pantheists sounds a tad heretical!)

[Politesse]

(Xian pantheists sounds a tad heretical!)And proud of it.

[Clivedurdle]

(Xian pantheists sounds a tad heretical!)And proud of it.

What on earth is a good atheist to do when he can't pin down the theists?

And that does bring us back to the op - do you think xian prayer is the same thing as spell throwing?

(And do your pagan and xian sides have conflicting viewpoints?)

[Politesse]

And that does bring us back to the op - do you think xian prayer is the same thing as spell throwing?
As I said in my first post, sometimes and sometimes not.

[Anne]

:notworthy::evil::popcorn:

A theist who can't be pigeon holed! I like!

[Ray Moscow]

As a Methodist minister said (in jest): It doesn't matter what you believe -- I believe the same thing.

[DMB]

As Anne said, "cast" is a synonym for "throw".

[Rie]

But where in this context is the explanation of a 'cast' in the eye? My money is on it being a sign of the devil but I don't understand the .. wait for biiig word... etymology?

[mygunshowsoldout]

The process of casting a spell was the pagan ritual of naming something.
This was twisted by the church into being evil, satan worshipping witchcraft, just like goats head(to look like pan) inside the pentagram.
So I would say no, a prayer doesnt really get anything done, however referencing something and adding to our collective knowledge does, so lets all find something new and cast a spell.

[Clivedurdle]

So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds of the air and all the beasts of the field. But for Adam no suitable helper was found.

And what is that dominion about?

[Clivedurdle]

A band of renegade biologists is taking on a mammoth task that threatens to upset a status quo that has been unchallenged for almost 250 years. Put simply, they want to change the way scientists name every living organism on the planet.

These rebels say that our system of naming plants, animals, fungi and bacteria, famously introduced by Linnaeus in 1758, is frustrating efforts to understand the living world. They want to replace it with a more rational scheme they call the PhyloCode.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn6369-linnean-naming-system-faces-challengers.html

Naming is a critical part of science.

[BioBeing]

A band of renegade biologists is taking on a mammoth task that threatens to upset a status quo that has been unchallenged for almost 250 years. Put simply, they want to change the way scientists name every living organism on the planet.

These rebels say that our system of naming plants, animals, fungi and bacteria, famously introduced by Linnaeus in 1758, is frustrating efforts to understand the living world. They want to replace it with a more rational scheme they call the PhyloCode.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn6369-linnean-naming-system-faces-challengers.html

Naming is a critical part of science.

Naming is needed for classification; it does not impart or imply any magic properties.

[Clivedurdle]

Naming is needed for classification; it does not impart or imply any magic properties

But

The process of casting a spell was the pagan ritual of naming something

As astrology was very important in the evolution of science, maybe magical thinking is?

[Haswell]

I think prayer is the same as spell casting. One might as well (to paraphrase dan Dennett) slaughter a goat at the same time.

[Notta]

But where in this context is the explanation of a 'cast' in the eye? My money is on it being a sign of the devil but I don't understand the .. wait for biiig word... etymology?It's an old, nearly obsolete definition of the word.

CAST
v. cast, cast·ing, casts
v.tr.
1.
a. To throw (something, especially something light): The angler cast the line.
b. To throw with force; hurl: waves that cast driftwood far up on the shore. See Synonyms at throw.
2. To shed; molt.
3. To throw forth; drop: cast anchor.
4. To throw on the ground, as in wrestling.
5. To deposit or indicate (a ballot or vote).
6. To turn or direct: All eyes were cast upon the speaker.
7. To cause to fall onto or over something or in a certain direction, as if by throwing: candles casting light; cast aspersions on my character; findings that cast doubt on our hypothesis.
8. To bestow; confer: "The government I cast upon my brother" (Shakespeare).
9.
a. To roll or throw (dice, for example).
b. To draw (lots).
10. To give birth to prematurely: The cow cast a calf.
11. To cause (hunting hounds) to scatter and circle in search of a lost scent.
12.
a. To choose actors for (a play, for example).
b. To assign a certain role to (an actor): cast her as the lead.
c. To assign an actor to (a part): cast each role carefully.
13. To form (liquid metal, for example) into a particular shape by pouring into a mold.
14. To give a form to; arrange: decided to cast the book in three parts.
15. To contrive; devise: cast a plan.
16. To calculate or compute; add up (a column of figures).
17. To calculate astrologically: cast my horoscope.
18. To warp; twist: floorboards cast by age.
19. Nautical To turn (a ship); change to the opposite tack.
v.intr.
1. To throw something, especially to throw out a lure or bait at the end of a fishing line.
2. To add a column of figures; make calculations.
3. To make a conjecture or a forecast.
4. To receive form or shape in a mold.
5. To become warped.
6. To search for a lost scent in hunting with hounds.
7. Nautical
a. To veer to leeward from a former course; fall off.
b. To put about; tack.
8. To choose actors for the parts in a play, movie, or other theatrical presentation.
9. Obsolete To estimate; conjecture.
n.
1.
a. The act or an instance of casting or throwing.
b. The distance thrown.
2.
a. A throwing of a fishing line or net into the water.
b. The line or net thrown.
3.
a. A throw of dice.
b. The number thrown.
4. A stroke of fortune or fate; lot.
5.
a. A direction or expression of the eyes.
b. A slight squint.
6. Something, such as molted skin, that is thrown off, out, or away.
7. The addition of a column of figures; calculation.
8. A conjecture; a forecast.
9.
a. The act of pouring molten material into a mold.
b. The amount of molten material poured into a mold at a single operation.
c. Something formed by this means: The sculpture was a bronze cast.
10. An impression formed in a mold or matrix; a mold: a cast of her face made in plaster.
11. A rigid dressing, usually made of gauze and plaster of Paris, used to immobilize an injured body part, as in a fracture or dislocation. Also called plaster cast.
12. The form in which something is made or constructed; arrangement: the close-set cast of her features.
13. Outward form or look; appearance: a suit of stylish cast.
14. Sort; type: fancied himself to be of a macho cast.
15. An inclination; tendency: her thoughtful cast of mind.
16. The actors in a play, movie, or other theatrical presentation.
17. A slight trace of color; a tinge.
18. A distortion of shape.
19. The circling of hounds to pick up a scent in hunting.
20. A pair of hawks released by a falconer at one time.

[BioBeing]

Naming is needed for classification; it does not impart or imply any magic properties

But

The process of casting a spell was the pagan ritual of naming something

As astrology was very important in the evolution of science, maybe magical thinking is?

Well, alchemy was too. And Adam got to name all the animals.

But Biological classification is just about describing. I highly doubt Linnaeus thought he was doing magic.

[Jack Willsson]

Our Father in heaven,
your name be honoured as holy.
Your reign come,
your will be done,
on earth as in heaven.
Give us today our daily bread.
Forgive us our sins,
as we forgive those who sin against us.
Lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.
For the reign, the power and the glory are yours.
Now and for ever. Amen

The prayer was given as an example of a prayer for Christians to pray when they had been warned off reciting a shopping list..

It is more like meditation in that what is potentially changed is the one saying the prayer.

[Clivedurdle]

name

The Lord's Prayer looks like a classic example of casting!