Freshwater hearings in Ohio - separation of church & state

[Notta]

For those of you who may not know, our very own RBH has been doing an outstanding job of summarizing the testimony in a trial in Ohio about a middle school science teacher, John Freshwater, who has been accused of using a Tesla coil to burn a cross on a student's arm, using creationist material in his science classroom, and proselytizing to students during the school day.

You can find more links to the daily testimony at The Panda's Thumb (http://pandasthumb.org/).

What really intrigued me lately was the supporting testimony from another 7th/8th grade math/science teacher as to her own actions in school about religion, proselytizing, and promoting her viewpoint to the students.

Here's a link to the full testimony (http://pandasthumb.org/archives/2009/03/freshwater-day-10.html)(scroll down to Lori Miller direct examination).

Here are some choice tidbits that really got my dander up, being a former middle school science teacher myself:

Displaying a picture of her desk, she showed that the Bible and devotional books were plainly visible, piled on a corner of the desk. She described religious materials displayed on one quadrant of her classroom bulletin board. They included a cross given to her by a student (roughly 8” high by 5” wide), a “Faith” card, and notes from her husband with Bible verses on them. She had removed those items on instructions from Bill White, middle school Principal, and Superintendent Short before the start of the 2008-2009 school year.

Miller testified that she had never had any instruction on the First Amendment Separation Clause. Asked if she had encouraged students at school to embrace Christianity before the Freshwater affair began last year, she readily responded that she had done so. She gave examples in an excited voice. She had prayed over students in the halls and lunchroom, had counseled them to seek Christ, and so on. She said, “I honestly didn’t think that was wrong.” She was very enthusiastic in voice and manner about her proselytizing in the public schools.

How on EARTH could a public school teacher in this century think it was a good thing to do to counsel her student to seek Christ, have multiple religious books on her desk, pray over and with students in the halls and lunchroom, etc.??

It doesn't matter how strong her faith is, or how much she wants to bring kids to Christ. What matters is that, as a public school teacher, she has no right to impose her religious beliefs on her students in her classroom on school time. And she didn't know??? That beggars belief. She is either incredibly ignorant about the law (which is entirely possible), or simply thinks it is wrong and does what she wants to.

According to information that is coming out in the trial, other teachers at this school share her viewpoint. It's entirely likely that many parents share it, too.

I wonder if the school board or superintendent can put her on notice and remove her from the classroom if this continues. It seems as if the principal, superintendent, other teachers, and parents knew this was going on, but it was implicitly approved until the lawsuit came along.

At any rate, kudos to RBH for sitting in on the days & days of testimony and condensing it for readers of The Panda's Thumb.

[DMB]

What I can't get over is how these teachers come over as totally dumb. How did they get to be teachers?

[Free in Freeport]

by sucking up to stupid principals

[DMB]

What's the career path for principals. Do they start off as teachers? What are the requirements to become a principal?

[RBH]

What's the career path for principals. Do they start off as teachers? What are the requirements to become a principal?In Ohio at least, most are former teachers, sometimes for only a year or two, who went to graduate school to get the necessary certifications for administration. There are requirements for cert defined by the State Department of Education for administrators, and degree programs in graduate schools of education. I don't know the requirements in detail, but it mainly requires persistence, not brains or common sense.

[Notta]

What's the career path for principals. Do they start off as teachers? What are the requirements to become a principal?In Ohio at least, most are former teachers, sometimes for only a year or two, who went to graduate school to get the necessary certifications for administration. There are requirements for cert defined by the State Department of Education for administrators, and degree programs in graduate schools of education. I don't know the requirements in detail, but it mainly requires persistence, not brains or common sense.
In PA, you need 3 years in the classroom and a 1 year program to get a principal certification. Most principals and superintendents (director of an entire school district) I met were examples of the Peter Principle.

[DMB]

Why don't you need many more years teaching first?

[Notta]

Why don't you need many more years teaching first?
That would be logical, wouldn't it? And I find that very little policy or practice in education is based on logic.

[RBH]

Why don't you need many more years teaching first?
That would be logical, wouldn't it? And I find that very little policy or practice in education is based on logic.Consider this: I am qualified to do everything from teaching first-year university students to supervising post-doctoral researchers, but I am not qualified to teach high school in the U.S. :)

[Notta]

Why don't you need many more years teaching first?
That would be logical, wouldn't it? And I find that very little policy or practice in education is based on logic.Consider this: I am qualified to do everything from teaching first-year university students to supervising post-doctoral researchers, but I am not qualified to teach high school in the U.S. :)
It used to be policy in South Dakota that anyone with a bachelor's degree who had taken even ONE course in a subject was 'qualified' to teach that subject.

In PA, even if you have a PhD, have published numerous books and articles, and have taught at the university level for your ENTIRE career, you are no longer considered "highly qualified" or are even certified to teach K-12 in any subject whatsoever.

[Ronin]

For those of you who may not know, our very own RBH has been doing an outstanding job of summarizing the testimony in a trial in Ohio about a middle school science teacher, John Freshwater, who has been accused of using a Tesla coil to burn a cross on a student's arm, using creationist material in his science classroom, and proselytizing to students during the school day.

You can find more links to the daily testimony at The Panda's Thumb (http://pandasthumb.org/).

What really intrigued me lately was the supporting testimony from another 7th/8th grade math/science teacher as to her own actions in school about religion, proselytizing, and promoting her viewpoint to the students.

Here's a link to the full testimony (http://pandasthumb.org/archives/2009/03/freshwater-day-10.html)(scroll down to Lori Miller direct examination).

Here are some choice tidbits that really got my dander up, being a former middle school science teacher myself:

Displaying a picture of her desk, she showed that the Bible and devotional books were plainly visible, piled on a corner of the desk. She described religious materials displayed on one quadrant of her classroom bulletin board. They included a cross given to her by a student (roughly 8” high by 5” wide), a “Faith” card, and notes from her husband with Bible verses on them. She had removed those items on instructions from Bill White, middle school Principal, and Superintendent Short before the start of the 2008-2009 school year.

Miller testified that she had never had any instruction on the First Amendment Separation Clause. Asked if she had encouraged students at school to embrace Christianity before the Freshwater affair began last year, she readily responded that she had done so. She gave examples in an excited voice. She had prayed over students in the halls and lunchroom, had counseled them to seek Christ, and so on. She said, “I honestly didn’t think that was wrong.” She was very enthusiastic in voice and manner about her proselytizing in the public schools.

How on EARTH could a public school teacher in this century think it was a good thing to do to counsel her student to seek Christ, have multiple religious books on her desk, pray over and with students in the halls and lunchroom, etc.??

It doesn't matter how strong her faith is, or how much she wants to bring kids to Christ. What matters is that, as a public school teacher, she has no right to impose her religious beliefs on her students in her classroom on school time. And she didn't know??? That beggars belief. She is either incredibly ignorant about the law (which is entirely possible), or simply thinks it is wrong and does what she wants to.

According to information that is coming out in the trial, other teachers at this school share her viewpoint. It's entirely likely that many parents share it, too.

I wonder if the school board or superintendent can put her on notice and remove her from the classroom if this continues. It seems as if the principal, superintendent, other teachers, and parents knew this was going on, but it was implicitly approved until the lawsuit came along.

At any rate, kudos to RBH for sitting in on the days & days of testimony and condensing it for readers of The Panda's Thumb.

This is pure gold!

RBH, I cannot fully express in words my appreciation of your efforts to compile and keep a record of this event.

Is there anyway to get the official transcripts of the hearing?

Also, you should seriously consider making one file for inevitable publishing purposes.

:notworthy:

[RBH]

This is pure gold!

RBH, I cannot fully express in words my appreciation of your efforts to compile and keep a record of this event.

Is there anyway to get the official transcripts of the hearing?

Also, you should seriously consider making one file for inevitable publishing purposes.

:notworthy:Thanks for the kind words.

Transcripts have to be bought from the court reporter and cost on the order of $2.50 per page. (Court reporters are private contractors and make a significant part of their living selling transcripts. I don't know if the two sides to a hearing get one free transcript each or have to pay for them, too.)

I will likely do some sort of consolidation post, or at least write an annotated list of links for the individual posts sometime this summer. The hearing is definitely dragging on into the summer. The next hearing dates are this week Thursday and Friday, April 2 and 3, and then we're looking at June since there are apparently no May dates when all the attorneys are available. Gaaah! :eek:

(BTW, just to add to the labor involved, the referee has prohibited recording devices so it's all based on dozens of pages of handwritten notes per day/witness. I haven't taken so many notes since I was an undergraduate! :D)

[crazyfingers]

Miller testified that she had never had any instruction on the First Amendment Separation Clause. Asked if she had encouraged students at school to embrace Christianity before the Freshwater affair began last year, she readily responded that she had done so. She gave examples in an excited voice. She had prayed over students in the halls and lunchroom, had counseled them to seek Christ, and so on. She said, “I honestly didn’t think that was wrong.” She was very enthusiastic in voice and manner about her proselytizing in the public schools.


:bang:

[nygreenguy]

Thought this was going to be about wetlands....

[RBH]

Thought this was going to be about wetlands....LOL! That's what my Google News trap often gets for this topic.

BTW, the district did offer a voluntary 'religion and the schools' workshop for teachers in the fall of 2003. Freshwater didn't take it. I don't know if Miller did. Most likely not, given her testimony.

[Notta]

BTW, the district did offer a voluntary 'religion and the schools' workshop for teachers in the fall of 2003. Freshwater didn't take it. I don't know if Miller did. Most likely not, given her testimony.
I can't believe that the district even needed to hold a workshop like that. I'm guessing that there were problems long before anything became public.

[frazier]

I can't believe that the district even needed to hold a workshop like that. I'm guessing that there were problems long before anything became public.
I'm guessing that our definition of "problem" is quite a bit different from theirs.

[RBH]

BTW, the district did offer a voluntary 'religion and the schools' workshop for teachers in the fall of 2003. Freshwater didn't take it. I don't know if Miller did. Most likely not, given her testimony.
I can't believe that the district even needed to hold a workshop like that. I'm guessing that there were problems long before anything became public.Sure. But in fact, prospective teachers don't much training at all in those kinds of issues, I've learned. So offering a workshop on religion and the schools isn't as strange as it may sound. One has to remember that we here are hyper-aware of those kinds of issues, whereas most people are actually pretty ignorant of them. They didn't follow the Dover trial, don't know what the Establishment Clause means as interpreted by the Supreme Court, and in many cases would be surprised (as Lori Miller was) to find that casual "sharing my faith" in the schools was illegal.

I've bugged AU about materials for that kind of thing, to no avail yet. There may be some out there in other venues, though. I'll have to look around.

[crazyfingers]

I've bugged AU about materials for that kind of thing, to no avail yet. There may be some out there in other venues, though. I'll have to look around.

A summary of current law on religion in the public schools can be found in these nearly identical documents. The only thing that they don't say is that students and staff have the right to sit out the pledge and that ID is understood to be religion.

http://www.ed.gov/Speeches/08-1995/religion.html

http://www.aclu.org/religion/schools/16146leg19950412.html

Note the list of signers at the bottom of the ACLU version.

Though over 10 years old, they are still current.

[RBH]

Many thanks for that.

And I've just put up another 4,100 well-chosen words (http://pandasthumb.org/archives/2009/04/freshwater-hear-5.html), including links to the docs you provided, cf.

[DMB]

I really do admire you, RBH, for sitting so patiently through what must be excruciatingly deadly days at that hearing.

[Notta]

Great work!

Plus, RBH gave a shout-out and a link to our new board here on his page at The Panda's Thumb.

[RBH]

Great work!

Plus, RBH gave a shout-out and a link to our new board here on his page at The Panda's Thumb.Thank crazyfingers: He gave me the perfect opportunity to do so. :)

[crazyfingers]

Many thanks for that.

And I've just put up another 4,100 well-chosen words (http://pandasthumb.org/archives/2009/04/freshwater-hear-5.html), including links to the docs you provided, cf.

Cool. More people need to read those documents. The rules are really very simple and easy to follow for anyone with a desire to follow them.

[Notta]

I've been reading them for weeks. Coming from a school district in PA that is near Dover, I have a vested interest in seeing how this whole thing is handled.

I once had a local preacher show up at my classroom door with a fistful of pamphlets he wanted to 'share' with my 8th grade class about how dinosaurs and humans coexisted.

My spineless principal and science department chair refused to issue a statement supporting the Dover teachers who refused to read the statement about evolution being 'just a theory' in their classrooms.

My elderly dean wouldn't let me organize a big symposium on evolution for Darwin's 200th birthday because he 'didn't want to open that can of worms' and put people at risk (some had received anonymous death threats when speaking publicly in support of evolution).

Evolution wars are alive & well in PA, regardless of the Kitzmiller v Dover decision.

[RBH]

Many thanks for that.

And I've just put up another 4,100 well-chosen words (http://pandasthumb.org/archives/2009/04/freshwater-hear-5.html), including links to the docs you provided, cf.

Cool. More people need to read those documents. The rules are really very simple and easy to follow for anyone with a desire to follow them.Yup. I'm going to push them into the schools, too, either via the administration or Board of Education. They're being shown the costs of screwing around now, and will be well tenderized and ready soon.

[crazyfingers]

Yup. I'm going to push them into the schools, too, either via the administration or Board of Education. They're being shown the costs of screwing around now, and will be well tenderized and ready soon.

Nice! :thumbup: I'd love to hear of your progress from time to time when you have the time.

[crazyfingers]

I've been reading them for weeks. Coming from a school district in PA that is near Dover, I have a vested interest in seeing how this whole thing is handled.

I once had a local preacher show up at my classroom door with a fistful of pamphlets he wanted to 'share' with my 8th grade class about how dinosaurs and humans coexisted.

My spineless principal and science department chair refused to issue a statement supporting the Dover teachers who refused to read the statement about evolution being 'just a theory' in their classrooms.

My elderly dean wouldn't let me organize a big symposium on evolution for Darwin's 200th birthday because he 'didn't want to open that can of worms' and put people at risk (some had received anonymous death threats when speaking publicly in support of evolution).

Evolution wars are alive & well in PA, regardless of the Kitzmiller v Dover decision.

I don't know how you stand it. I couldn't.

[RBH]

Yup. I'm going to push them into the schools, too, either via the administration or Board of Education. They're being shown the costs of screwing around now, and will be well tenderized and ready soon.

Nice! :thumbup: I'd love to hear of your progress from time to time when you have the time.Interesting development today. My wife came home from a union meeting (she teaches in the same system), with the statement you linked to above, crazyfingers. The union distributed it at the meeting. Appears someone is pushing it in the union. I know a union district rep has been involved in some of the meetings between administration and some teachers (e.g., with Lori Miller, the middle school hall evangelizer), and the impetus may have come from him. I'll see what I can find out.

[crazyfingers]

That is interesting. I'd expect that the union would have at least as much interest in keeping its members OUT of legal troubles as the school system should be.

[RBH]

That is interesting. I'd expect that the union would have at least as much interest in keeping its members OUT of legal troubles as the school system should be.A little more info: The document (http://www.aclu.org/religion/schools/16146leg19950412.html) was included in a packet handed out to building reps. There was no elaboration or instruction concerning it. So I still get to push. :D

[RBH]

And another 6,700 well-chosen words are up (http://pandasthumb.org/archives/2009/04/freshwater-day-12.html).

[crazyfingers]

]A little more info: The document (http://www.aclu.org/religion/schools/16146leg19950412.html) was included in a packet handed out to building reps. There was no elaboration or instruction concerning it. So I still get to push. :D

My advice would be to find out who decided to copy and put it into the info package. Such a person on the inside of the teachers union could be helpful and influential in getting the school system to teach its employees about the law.

Edit: Never mind. I reread your post several up and you are already tracking down the clues.

[RBH]

Yup. :)

[DMB]

It really does give a pretty horrific picture of middle school science education in that neck of the woods.

[dug_down_deep]

I think it's more to do with the people in charge and the culture they establish than the region. I was educated in rural Ohio, and we didn't have to deal with any of that nonsense, despite the fact that most everyone was protestant christian.

[RBH]

I think it's more to do with the people in charge and the culture they establish than the region. I was educated in rural Ohio, and we didn't have to deal with any of that nonsense, despite the fact that most everyone was protestant christian.D3's right. It's the local culture. Mt. Vernon/Knox County has a plethora of tiny independent fundamentalist churches, was formerly the home of a seminary of the Church of the Four-Square Gospel, has the district headquarters of the Seventh Day Adventists, and a Nazarene university. So there's a strong institutional concentration of evangelicals and fundamentalists, together with troops to man the barricades.

You'll have noted the incestuous character of the place -- conservative Christian kids come up through the school system with evangelicals leading Fellowship of Christian Athletes clubs, get education degrees at the Naz, and then move right back into the public schools as teachers. Some administrators came by the same route. So there's a culture of Christian entitlement that's self-reinforcing at all levels.

Couple that with an already tough environment for passing school levies and you have ample incentive for administrators and BoEs to tiptoe around Christian "sensitivities."

[RBH]

And now Thursday is "Bring Your Bible to School Day in the middle school. It's the anniversary of passage of the Board's termination resolution. Gack.

[VoxRat]

And now Thursday is "Bring Your Bible to School Day in the middle school. It's the anniversary of passage of the Board's termination resolution. Gack.Are you serious???

If so, who's sponsoring this?

[RBH]

And now Thursday is "Bring Your Bible to School Day in the middle school. It's the anniversary of passage of the Board's termination resolution. Gack.Are you serious???

If so, who's sponsoring this?Not clear, but it wouldn't amaze me to know that it came from the kids, possibly stimulated their pastors but not necessarily. You have to remember that Freshwater is a charismatic and much-loved teacher. I like him personally. I think it's tragic -- in the Greek sense -- that his religious beliefs have led him into this morass.

[dug_down_deep]

And the kids break your heart, too. They're trying so hard to be good. They just have no idea that they're talking nonsense.

[RBH]

And the kids break your heart, too. They're trying so hard to be good. They just have no idea that they're talking nonsense.Yup. Some of the contrasts are amazing. In the last couple of months I've advised an 8th grade girl on her science fair project (she did well), and judged the regional science fair. Seeing those kids so excited about science is one thing, and then there's the Bible brigade whose minds have been poisoned.

[Lisa0315]

I have a question:

If a student on his own initiative asked the teacher to pray with him, is that against the law?

Lisa

[BigEvil]

I have a question:

If a student on his own initiative asked the teacher to pray with him, is that against the law?

Lisa

Don't know the legality of it, but I would or would not have a problem with it depending upon context. The situation has potential for abuse but I don't neccessarily see abuse as inherent. I would judge it on a case by case basis.

Justifying one prayer session between a student and teacher is going to be easier than justifying student and teacher having daily prayer sessions.

[MadMez]

I have a question:

If a student on his own initiative asked the teacher to pray with him, is that against the law?

Lisa

I can't see how it could be. Any student should be able to ask any teacher anything on any topic and get a good reply, depending on the teacher's knowledge of the subject and time allowed for the info.

In so far as a student asking a teacher to actually participate in an ancient ritual of supplication by surrendering their intelligence to superstition by abasing themselves to some fucking idiot made-up Deity during school time; then no that's not legal.

[Lisa0315]

I have a question:

If a student on his own initiative asked the teacher to pray with him, is that against the law?

Lisa

I can't see how it could be. Any student should be able to ask any teacher anything on any topic and get a good reply, depending on the teacher's knowledge of the subject and time allowed for the info.

In so far as a student asking a teacher to actually participate in an ancient ritual of supplication by surrendering their intelligence to superstition by abasing themselves to some fucking idiot made-up Deity during school time; then no that's not legal.

Have the teachers testified that the students asked them for prayers, or did the teachers offer it?

Also, is simply letting students know ones religion against the law? Or is offering spiritual help against the law?

Like if the teacher said one day in class: I am a Christian and if anyone is ever interested, I will talk to you about that after class.

Would that be legal?

Lisa

[RBH]

Have the teachers testified that the students asked them for prayers, or did the teachers offer it? According to sworn testimony, both.
Also, is simply letting students know ones religion against the law? That's very close to the edge, and is an invitation (by the teacher) to go over the edge.Or is offering spiritual help against the law? Yes, when a teacher is acting is his or her capacity as a teacher, though it depends on what is meant operationally by "spiritual help".
Like if the teacher said one day in class: I am a Christian and if anyone is ever interested, I will talk to you about that after class.

Would that be legal? Nope. That's not appropriate nor legal. The teacher in class (or anywhere in the school) is an agent of the state, and that statement would constitute an endorsement of a particular sectarian view by an agent of the state.

Earlier Lisa askedIf a student on his own initiative asked the teacher to pray with him, is that against the law?It's not against the law for a student to ask; it is against the law for a teacher (again, an agent of the state) to respond affirmatively in school. Outside of contract hours and outside of school, sure, it's OK.

The basic principle governing public school employees' behavior in this respect is "Not on the government's time, not on the government's dime."

[Lisa0315]

Have the teachers testified that the students asked them for prayers, or did the teachers offer it? According to sworn testimony, both.
Also, is simply letting students know ones religion against the law? That's very close to the edge, and is an invitation (by the teacher) to go over the edge.Yes, when a teacher is acting is his or her capacity as a teacher, though it depends on what is meant operationally by "spiritual help".
Like if the teacher said one day in class: I am a Christian and if anyone is ever interested, I will talk to you about that after class.

Would that be legal? Nope. That's not appropriate nor legal. The teacher in class (or anywhere in the school) is an agent of the state, and that statement would constitute an endorsement of a particular sectarian view by an agent of the state.

Earlier Lisa askedIf a student on his own initiative asked the teacher to pray with him, is that against the law?It's not against the law for a student to ask; it is against the law for a teacher (again, an agent of the state) to respond affirmatively in school. Outside of contract hours and outside of school, sure, it's OK.

The basic principle governing public school employees' behavior in this respect is "Not on the government's time, not on the government's dime."

Fair enough. Thanks!

[RBH]

Justifying one prayer session between a student and teacher is going to be easier than justifying student and teacher having daily prayer sessions.Nope, I have to disagree. One or many, it's still an endorsement of a particular sectarian view by an agent of the state.

[BigEvil]

Justifying one prayer session between a student and teacher is going to be easier than justifying student and teacher having daily prayer sessions.Nope, I have to disagree. One or many, it's still an endorsement of a particular sectarian view by an agent of the state.

Just to be clear, I was talking about my own subjective judgement and not the legality. I don't know the legality and indeed it might be illegal.

For example:

A student is distraught at school due to the death of the student's parent. Concerned for the student, a teacher has a private informal counseling session to express sympathy and concern. During the session, student asks teacher to pray and teacher prays with student.

Is it illegal? Maybe. I don't have a problem with it whether its technically legal or not.

I can come up with tons of situations in which I would have problems, and the events that you are documenting concerning Freshwater are ripe with them. But there are other situations that even if illegal, should be ignored (at least in my opinion).

(And as an aside, like many others, I greatly appreciate the time and effort you are expending to covering this.)

[RBH]

Justifying one prayer session between a student and teacher is going to be easier than justifying student and teacher having daily prayer sessions.Nope, I have to disagree. One or many, it's still an endorsement of a particular sectarian view by an agent of the state.

Just to be clear, I was talking about my own subjective judgement and not the legality. I don't know the legality and indeed it might be illegal.

For example:

A student is distraught at school due to the death of the student's parent. Concerned for the student, a teacher has a private informal counseling session to express sympathy and concern. During the session, student asks teacher to pray and teacher prays with student.

Is it illegal? Maybe. I don't have a problem with it whether its technically legal or not.Well, yeah, I can see that. Problem is, at least here we've got an inch-mile situation, where a death of a parent can morph into 'screwed up an exam' or 'trouble with girlfriend,' or 'a visitor feeling poorly,' and the evangelicals on the staff don't differentiate among them: any seeming problem is an occasion for in-school prayer.

[David B]

Justifying one prayer session between a student and teacher is going to be easier than justifying student and teacher having daily prayer sessions.Nope, I have to disagree. One or many, it's still an endorsement of a particular sectarian view by an agent of the state.

Just to be clear, I was talking about my own subjective judgement and not the legality. I don't know the legality and indeed it might be illegal.

For example:

A student is distraught at school due to the death of the student's parent. Concerned for the student, a teacher has a private informal counseling session to express sympathy and concern. During the session, student asks teacher to pray and teacher prays with student.

Is it illegal? Maybe. I don't have a problem with it whether its technically legal or not.

I can come up with tons of situations in which I would have problems, and the events that you are documenting concerning Freshwater are ripe with them. But there are other situations that even if illegal, should be ignored (at least in my opinion).

(And as an aside, like many others, I greatly appreciate the time and effort you are expending to covering this.)

My bold.

I would see this as a circumstance in which 'Don't ask, don't tell' would be the wise course of action, whether it is, strictly interpreted, an abuse of school time or not.

However, such a request would present something of a quandry for an atheist teacher, who does not want to be hypocritical, would it not?

How could one say no, to such a request, without either explaining that one is an atheist, or without looking like a shit?

David

[RBH]

How could one say no, to such a request, without either explaining that one is an atheist, or without looking like a shit?

DavidThose aren't the only two alternatives. One could -- I would -- say something like "Look Danny, if you want to pray about it I'll stay here with you." I've had religious students who have had problems who I've not had a problem counseling even when they invoked religion. Last semester I taught a seminar on the history of the religion/evolution controversy, and had a range of religious beliefs among the students. I spent no little time after class talking with (mostly listening to) some of them work through problems associated with their beliefs and the role of their beliefs in their lives and specific troubles, and they didn't seem to hold back because they knew I'm an atheist.

It's much more in how one handles oneself as a person rather than what religious persuasion one transmits.

[David B]

How could one say no, to such a request, without either explaining that one is an atheist, or without looking like a shit?

DavidThose aren't the only two alternatives. One could -- I would -- say something like "Look Danny, if you want to pray about it I'll stay here with you." I've had religious students who have had problems who I've not had a problem counseling even when they invoked religion. Last semester I taught a seminar on the history of the religion/evolution controversy, and had a range of religious beliefs among the students. I spent no little time after class talking with (mostly listening to) some of them work through problems associated with their beliefs and the role of their beliefs in their lives and specific troubles, and they didn't seem to hold back because they knew I'm an atheist.

It's much more in how one handles oneself as a person rather than what religious persuasion one transmits.

Got it.

What a bugger! I try to be assiduous about watching for false dichotomies in others, and then go and commit the sin of false dichotomy myself:o

David

[Notta]

I would see this as a circumstance in which 'Don't ask, don't tell' would be the wise course of action, whether it is, strictly interpreted, an abuse of school time or not.

However, such a request would present something of a quandry for an atheist teacher, who does not want to be hypocritical, would it not?

How could one say no, to such a request, without either explaining that one is an atheist, or without looking like a shit?

DavidI would tell the student that I was sorry, but I couldn't do that in my role as a teacher, but if the student wanted to pray in my presence (if we were in a relatively private area), I wouldn't ask him/her to stop.

Frankly, unless a teacher had EXPLICITLY told the students his/her faith, how would a student even presume that the teacher shared the same belief system? My former students had no idea whether I went to church or not (even when I was an extremely devout Christian), and it never came up in discussions. I had kids ask me if they could pray during silent study hall or before a test, and I would always say, "Sure! As long as it's a silent prayer." (My favorite was from a kid who wanted to pray during sustained silent reading time -- I told him he was only required to read silently for 20 minutes a week - and he could use the rest of his time praying for as long as he wanted...)

[BigEvil]

Well, yeah, I can see that. Problem is, at least here we've got an inch-mile situation, where a death of a parent can morph into 'screwed up an exam' or 'trouble with girlfriend,' or 'a visitor feeling poorly,' and the evangelicals on the staff don't differentiate among them: any seeming problem is an occasion for in-school prayer.

And to a certain extent with Freshwater, it got to the point where he wasn't so much a teacher as he was a pastor-in-residence with some of his fellow teachers playing deacons. I get that.

But it wasn't because anyone accepted his justifications, it was that no one required him to justify anything.

[RBH]

Well, yeah, I can see that. Problem is, at least here we've got an inch-mile situation, where a death of a parent can morph into 'screwed up an exam' or 'trouble with girlfriend,' or 'a visitor feeling poorly,' and the evangelicals on the staff don't differentiate among them: any seeming problem is an occasion for in-school prayer.

And to a certain extent with Freshwater, it got to the point where he wasn't so much a teacher as he was a pastor-in-residence with some of his fellow teachers playing deacons. I get that.

But it wasn't because anyone accepted his justifications, it was that no one required him to justify anything.Worse, some administrators enabled and even encouraged it -- witness the former assistant principal at the middle school, Tim Keib, who inscribed an arguably religious poster to a guidance counselor thanking the counselor for "ministering" to students!

[crazyfingers]

And now Thursday is "Bring Your Bible to School Day in the middle school. It's the anniversary of passage of the Board's termination resolution. Gack.Are you serious???

If so, who's sponsoring this?Not clear, but it wouldn't amaze me to know that it came from the kids, possibly stimulated their pastors but not necessarily. You have to remember that Freshwater is a charismatic and much-loved teacher. I like him personally. I think it's tragic -- in the Greek sense -- that his religious beliefs have led him into this morass.

Even if it came from the kids, the administration can neither encourage or discourage it. Has the administration supported the plan even if they didn't initiate it?

[RBH]

Even if it came from the kids, the administration can neither encourage or discourage it. Has the administration supported the plan even if they didn't initiate it?Not to my knowledge. As far as I can tell, the administration is tolerating it, but neither discouraging nor encouraging it.

[crazyfingers]

Teacher accused of displaying Bible sues district (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hkpZQXwJBEVapUCY2FAM6e1WH4AAD98NUOP82)


COLUMBUS, Ohio (AP) — An Ohio school teacher fired over accusations that he preached Christianity in class says in a $1 million lawsuit that his free speech and civil rights were violated.

John Freshwater, an eighth-grade teacher in Mount Vernon, northeast of Columbus, also says he was harassed because of his religion, was defamed and suffered a hostile work environment.

The Mount Vernon school board created a work situation that allowed Freshwater "to be harassed by both administrators and co-workers on account of his religion," according to the lawsuit against the board and school administrators filed Tuesday in U.S. District Court in Columbus.

A message was left with Superintendent Steve Sharp on Wednesday seeking comment.

The Mount Vernon school board fired Freshwater last year, citing an internal investigation that found he had preached his Christian beliefs in class.

Freshwater was also accused of using a scientific device to burn a cross image onto a student's arm and of keeping a Bible on his desk.

... continues

[Notta]

Who's filing this lawsuit on his behalf? Wait -- let me guess. The Discovery Institute. Amiright?

[crazyfingers]

I don't know. It's a likely guess though.

But it could also be any number of Christian right wing theocratic litigation outfits.

Rutherford
"Liberty" Council founded by Jerry Fallwell
ACLJ founded by Pat Robertson
or others..

But I'd put my money on Discovery Institute too.

[DMB]

What are the odds on the suit succeeding?

[BigEvil]

I really don't think it would be the Discovery Institute. Freshwater was/is a blatant christian creationist, more along the lines of the AiG version than the DI version. Because of how much of his issue is purely religious, I can't see DI backing him directly, although they will clearly be cheering him on. It will be some christian right-wing political group along the lines crazyfingers listed.

From what I have read from RBH's postings at Panda's Thumb, I don't think it has much chance of success. But it will garner publicity and make for persecuted christian propaganda.

[BigEvil]

I am sure there is more than this, but the local group that is supporting and funding the lawsuit is the Community Council for Free Expression. Their official website is Bible On The Desk (http://www.bibleonthedesk.com/index.php).

From the web page:
As the board has now presented its case, its time for John's lawyers to step in and do their part. A group of community leaders fomed a non-profit group to collect monies to provide for John's defense. This group, The Community Council for Free Expression, is comprised of pastors, attorneys, an Ohio state representative and exists to support the Freshwater family and freedom of expression everywhere.

[dug_down_deep]

Freedom of expression. Hahahahahaha. Some brave teacher ought to test that by teaching satanism in their classroom and asking the CCFE for legal assistance.

[BigEvil]

For those of you following this, RBH has an update at Panda's Thumb. (http://pandasthumb.org/archives/2009/09/freshwater-upda-2.html)

[Valheru]

I wanna connect HER to a fucking Tesla coil and turn her head into another vision of the FSM. :mad:

[munnki]

Here (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/feb/10/brand-cross-christian-science-teacher)


Jennifer Dennis studied her 13-year-old son's skin and was uncertain which to be more astonished by: the shape made by the strange dots running the length of his forearm, or how they got there.

"When I looked at it, the shape was definitely a cross, like a Christian cross," said Dennis. "Zach said his teacher did it with an instrument that gave off something like a lightning bolt. It was red, like a sunburn or if you burn your arm on the oven."

The next morning, Dennis was standing in the reception of Mount Vernon middle school demanding to know what had been done to Zachary.

That was three years ago and the small, deeply religious Ohio town is bracing itself for the answer to Dennis's question after the lengthy de facto trial of a man who is either a decorated teacher martyred for his Christian faith, or a religious zealot who spent years undermining the very science he was paid to teach.

No comment... f£$king hell!

[Ray Moscow]

Our own RBH has been blogging about this at The Panda's Thumb (http://pandasthumb.org/)since it happened. Look for the keyword "Freshwater".

[David B]

See http://www.secularcafe.org/showthread.php?t=927&highlight=panda%27s+thumb

David

[Ray Moscow]

Let's bump this up for those who haven't seen it, as it's very much in the news again.

[munnki]

Ah... perhaps a merge then... I didn't realise.. can one of you admin types merge this?

[Haswell]

by sucking up to stupid principals

Or sucking stupid principals.....

[RBH]

Our own RBH has been blogging about this at The Panda's Thumb (http://pandasthumb.org/)since it happened. Look for the keyword "Freshwater".Our own RBH spent 2.5 hours with the Guardian reporter on the record and 4 hours drinking beer with him off the record. And he still got my former occupation wrong! :D

[Febble]

Our own RBH has been blogging about this at The Panda's Thumb (http://pandasthumb.org/)since it happened. Look for the keyword "Freshwater".Our own RBH spent 2.5 hours with the Guardian reporter on the record and 4 hours drinking beer with him off the record. And he still got my former occupation wrong! :D

ouch

I want to apologise for my favorite newspaper. Even we who love it know its flaws.

[DMB]

All reporters get things wrong. It's the norm. The worst example I suffered was when a Telegraph reporter interviewed me on a particular subject and asked "Would you agree that P is true?" (where P stands for a proposition). I answered, "No, because... (detailed explanation)".

The next day, his article appeared in the paper and said, "DMB said yesterday P".

I was furious and couldn't get the paper to issue a retraction. I suspect it was a deliberate lie.

[Ray Moscow]

But then, it was The Telegraph. You should have expected that.

(The Guardian seems to be scrapping the bottom these days with their pro-religion articles, though.)

[Febble]

But then, it was The Telegraph. You should have expected that.

(The Guardian seems to be scrapping the bottom these days with their pro-religion articles, though.)

Which pro-religion articles? I must have missed those....

[Ray Moscow]

Here's a takedown of a recent one in WEIT. (http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2010/02/10/famous-philosopher-and-templeton-prize-winner-science-faith/)

The article itself (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2010/jan/31/charles-taylor-philosophy-religion-science)is truly terrible, as was another one Vernon wrote that was published there a few weeks ago.

[RBH]

I've now been podcasted about the Freshwater affair (http://itunes.apple.com/podcast/the-big-podcast-a-pair-of/id301387273). The interview starts at about the 17:00 mark.

BTW, bonus points to whomever identifies the tune they used as an intro to the interview itself. Fat Steve has a subtle sense of humor, and I find the tune vaguely familiar but cannot name it.

[BioBeing]

Shazam couldn't ID it. Listening to the Podcast now - you sound great!

[RBH]

Shazam couldn't ID it. Listening to the Podcast now - you sound great!Shoot. Wish I knew what it was. :(