What is the point of Islam?

[Clivedurdle]

People being stoned and cross amputated, printer cartridges as bombs, you know....

But why?

What is the endgame, the strategy?

Where are they going?

[Ray Moscow]

Islam, like most "revealed" religions, claims to be submission to God's revealed will.

Actually, it's just a way to control people and oppress them by claiming the power and authority of a fictional god and his "prophet".

The endgame is to take control of as much of the world and as many people and resources as possible -- again, like most other "revealed" religions.

[Clivedurdle]

But how does this explain a judge in Iran or Islamicists in Somalia or a top student knifing an MP?

World domination does not seem part of it.

And why are they not submitting?

[Politesse]

The goal of Islam is to enlighten the world to the one true faith, one of submission to the will of god in all things, reform those faiths which have gone astray, restore humility to those who can bear it and warn those who cannot, before the end times come and all the choices are withdrawn.

[Politesse]

But how does this explain a judge in Iran or Islamicists in Somalia or a top student knifing an MP?

World domination does not seem part of it.

And why are they not submitting?

Because their motivations are political and they therefore don't give a shit about Islam unless it serves their own ends? Power has always behaved thus.

[Clivedurdle]

Would that be Sunni or Shia or Sufi or....?

[Clivedurdle]

What is happening in Somalia for example does not feel political.

Humans with a blood lust..

[Politesse]

The one true faith, you mean? I would say most Muslims agree that all Muslims and indeed many of the people of the book strive toward it. The violent types you mention, of course, may be more inclined to advance Shi'a or Sunni as the golden article. I have yet to hear of a Sufi extremist.

[Politesse]

What is happening in Somalia for example does not feel political.

Humans with a blood lust..

Somalia is analogous to Dark Age Europe; power is localized and brutally maintained however it can be. It might not be political in the sense of political parties, but most of the heinous acts taking place there- the systematic rape, the conscription of child soldiers as "taxes", private armies, example killings of all variety, and yes, extremized religion that sounds more like tribalism than theology- are all expressions of power intended to create more power. They all sound familiar to a student of history.

[Rie]

Um... The U S of A has bought into some pretty dark situation. All the stranger then as supposedly America is 'enlightened' according to the above arguments?
Come on ! We are living in a global village and politics is politics and evermore will be so!

[Ray Moscow]

The goal of Islam is to enlighten the world to the one true faith, one of submission to the will of god in all things, reform those faiths which have gone astray, restore humility to those who can bear it and warn those who cannot, before the end times come and all the choices are withdrawn.

I think you're confusing its PR with its actions.

[Clivedurdle]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/nov/03/lauren-booth-conversion-to-islam

Read this and despair!

[Haswell]

Subjugation. Oppression and submission. To become part of the Borg Hive.

[Ray Moscow]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/nov/03/lauren-booth-conversion-to-islam

Read this and despair!

What an idiot.

She should try de-converting now to see how sweet and tolerant it is.

[Clivedurdle]

Is there something about us humans that the more ridiculous and unbelievable and plain nasty something is, the more people join up?

Ignoring Godwin's Law, maybe Naziism is just another example of how not like angels or made in god's image we are.

[DMB]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/nov/03/lauren-booth-conversion-to-islam

Read this and despair!

I wouldn't despair about anything emanating from Lauren Booth, a "celebrity" whose only claim to fame is being the half sister of Tony Blair's wife. And don't forget that Cherie, who is supposed to have a massive brain, is in hock to the RCC and an assortment of batty new age nonsense.

I really do think you have to draw some sort of distinction between Islam and Islamism. It's like the difference between normal cultural supporters of the CofE and the mad bastards in America who think that it is God's will that they murder abortion doctors.

I can't see that any one religion has more or less point than any other. Most of them have their loony corners, but most of their supporters are just people. To take Iran, where, pace Ms Booth, some of the worst human rights abuses are perpetrated in the name of religion, even most of the people who are prepared to risk their lives opposing the Islamist regime are probably themselves Muslims, and will see the current regime as distorting Islam.

[Ray Moscow]

Booth would have her ass beaten, literally, for showing that much hair in public in Iran.

Such is Islam's respect for women.

[Politesse]

The goal of Islam is to enlighten the world to the one true faith, one of submission to the will of god in all things, reform those faiths which have gone astray, restore humility to those who can bear it and warn those who cannot, before the end times come and all the choices are withdrawn.

I think you're confusing its PR with its actions.

Is that like confusing propaganda for general fact, Ray? I assume you would know.

[Matty]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/nov/03/lauren-booth-conversion-to-islam

Read this and despair!

What an idiot.

She should try de-converting now to see how sweet and tolerant it is.

indeed,

[Jet Black]

the OP is of course talking about fundamentalist batshit insane people who ascribe to Islam, and not Islam itself and nor for that matter the wholly more normal muslims who live their lives much as the rest of us do.

to wit, the purpose of these crazy actions is simply to do something horrible in the name of Islam that will earn one a place in heaven.

[Jet Black]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/nov/03/lauren-booth-conversion-to-islam

Read this and despair!

What an idiot.

She should try de-converting now to see how sweet and tolerant it is.

it? No, people again. Many muslims would just see a devonversion as a sad thing, and not be baying to have her head removed courtesy of the baghdad barbers.

[Jet Black]

The goal of Islam is to enlighten the world to the one true faith, one of submission to the will of god in all things, reform those faiths which have gone astray, restore humility to those who can bear it and warn those who cannot, before the end times come and all the choices are withdrawn.

I think you're confusing its PR with its actions.

Is that like confusing propaganda for general fact, Ray? I assume you would know.

precisely. The sad thing that so many people here are falling for, is ascribing the actions of a limited few to the majority. There is little difference between this and saying "Atheists are evil murderers, hey, look at Stalin" Stalin was an evil murderer who happened to be atheist, just like these crazy people are crazies who just happen to be Muslim.

[Jet Black]

Booth would have her ass beaten, literally, for showing that much hair in public in Iran.

Such is Islam's respect for women.

Yet again you are talking about the Iranian code of law and conflating it with Islam.


this is getting really tiresome.

[Rie]

Humbly I add ... what the willingness to die for a belief system indicates to me is that we non- believers should respect belief of that enormous degree... at the same time abhorring the poiticians who urge this upon their people.
Yep... it's complicated.

[Free in Freeport]

Meh. Let them stone her stupid ass.

[DMB]

Humbly I add ... what the willingness to die for a belief system indicates to me is that we non- believers should respect belief of that enormous degree... at the same time abhorring the poiticians who urge this upon their people.
Yep... it's complicated.

If anything, I respect it less. And any belief that requires sacrifice of one's life is very dodgy indeed.

Much as I think that politicians in many Islamic countries are blameworthy, I feel that a majority of them are more to blame for going along with this stupidity or even exploiting it rather than for propagating it. There are obvious exceptions, such as Zia ul Haq of Pakistan, but a far more common type is Nawaz Sharif.

[Ray Moscow]

Booth would have her ass beaten, literally, for showing that much hair in public in Iran.

Such is Islam's respect for women.

Yet again you are talking about the Iranian code of law and conflating it with Islam.


this is getting really tiresome.

And the Iranian legal code is based on ....?

[Ray Moscow]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/nov/03/lauren-booth-conversion-to-islam

Read this and despair!

What an idiot.

She should try de-converting now to see how sweet and tolerant it is.

it? No, people again. Many muslims would just see a devonversion as a sad thing, and not be baying to have her head removed courtesy of the baghdad barbers.

JB, I work with Muslims. I travel to Islamic countries frequently, unlike most people here. I know that Muslims are just like anybody else.

What I'm saying is that Islam calls for an apostate's execution, and many Muslims and Islamic countries are quite willing to have that sentence carried out, simply because their religion calls for it.

[Ray Moscow]

The goal of Islam is to enlighten the world to the one true faith, one of submission to the will of god in all things, reform those faiths which have gone astray, restore humility to those who can bear it and warn those who cannot, before the end times come and all the choices are withdrawn.

I think you're confusing its PR with its actions.

Is that like confusing propaganda for general fact, Ray? I assume you would know.

precisely. The sad thing that so many people here are falling for, is ascribing the actions of a limited few to the majority. There is little difference between this and saying "Atheists are evil murderers, hey, look at Stalin" Stalin was an evil murderer who happened to be atheist, just like these crazy people are crazies who just happen to be Muslim.

And what propaganda would that be?

Could it be this (http://www.light-of-life.com/eng/ilaw/)?

The Prophet -- the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him -- said, "He who changes his religion must be killed"; this holds true both for men and women. The apostasy of a man calls for putting him to death. It is unanimously agreed upon that apostasy is a horrible crime deserving a horrible punishment. The apostasy of a woman is no less horrible. Therefore, it too deserves a corresponding punishment: death.

For some goofy reason, you seem to think I'm saying that all Muslims are bad people. No, I'm saying that Islam itself calls for the death of anyone who deconverts.

Defend it if you want to, but why?

[DMB]

This is more worrying than Lauren Booth's hot air.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/nov/04/stephen-timms-attack-roshonara-choudhry

[Clivedurdle]

I had to call the Police out a couple of nights ago because of domestic violence at our neighbours.

She is 19 with a two year old, born and brought up in Britain, very British teenager. Taken out of school three years back so no qualifications although she is obviously intelligent and married off to a Pashtun speaking guy.

Discussing it with someone who knows about this stuff who is a muslim atheist who works in translation, she said that only illiterate families arrange marriages of their children to illiterate others who have not got a clue about how we do things.

Islam is the problem here - she has been wearing the veil out and about but significantly not when talking to me!

All Islam has done has taught them the koran but has not actually given them tools to create lives for themselves. The problem is Islam. The moderates have actually created a way of life for themselves that avoids the issues.

There is a reason why so many Jews have Nobel prizes and so few Muslims do not.

[Ray Moscow]

There is a reason why so many Jews have Nobel prizes and so few Muslims do not.

Few (any?) fundamentalist or evangelical Christians have won Nobels, either.

Jews have just about everyone else outnumbered for Nobel and other top scientific and academic prizes, I suppose because of the Jewish culture's emphasis on learning.

[Clivedurdle]

I thought some strange protestant sects also had produced disproportianate numbers of nobel prize winners, but my point is how come a religion based on reading an allegedly holy book ends up with so many illiterate people worldwide?

[Clivedurdle]

Marlene Winnell argues that evangelical xianity contains the seeds of its own destruction because if you do think about it it falls apart. Islam seems to have far stronger mechanisms in place to stop thinking and is therefore far more dangerous.

Is the purpose of Islam to prevent thinking?

[Clivedurdle]

Boris Johnson got severely criticised for commenting that Islamic art just does not cut it compared with what the Greeks achieved and other peoples are achieving.

Maybe he is correct.

[DMB]

The Pakistani nuclear physicist Pervez Hoodbhoy wrote a very good book called Islam and Science. Unfortunately it is long out of print. I have a copy hiding somewhere; I wish I knew where. It's a long time since I read it, but IIRC he highlighted the attitude of reliance on authority in Islam, which is inimical to scientific progress.

[Jet Black]

Humbly I add ... what the willingness to die for a belief system indicates to me is that we non- believers should respect belief of that enormous degree... at the same time abhorring the poiticians who urge this upon their people.
Yep... it's complicated.

no, respecting people's belief or level of belief is pretty dumb. respecting their right to believe in dumb shit is ok though.

[Eudaimonist]

What is the endgame, the strategy?

You give them too much credit. What makes you think there is a strategy?

People like that have no strategy. They are puppets following a doctrine. The strategy is all in Allah's hands.


eudaimonia,

Mark

[DMB]

The Muslim Brotherhood definitely have a strategy and have been following it for decades.

[Oranj]

/spank