Atheists and Anger: Lisa's Homework

[SallyAnne]

I take the RCC very seriously indeed.


Oh. ok.

whats the point of anyone bothering to reply to you, sallyanne, if you're going to take the snarky catty road.




That wasn't me being snarky or catty, that's your own judgement of it. But it's just me accepting what DMB said, there is nothing sinister about it. I didn't think an atheist would take religion seriously, DMB put me straight and I am accepting that that's why I said "oh. ok." If you want to read that negatively, that's your choice.

[SallyAnne]

people have gone out of their way to engage you and you're one liner posts don't come across well for you. they make you seem petty, disrespectful, and rude.



Ok, in future I wont respond at all. I wanted to acknowledge that I accept what he said that's why I said "oh. ok" and I didn't have anything else to say because there is nothing else to say. I couldn't understand why an atheist would take the RCC seriously but DMB said that he did. That's it in a nutshell, there is nothing else to say unless I want to start arguing with DMB but I don't.

But don't worry, I wont even bother acknowledging in future.

[SallyAnne]

You have just provided SallyAnne with the recommended daily intake of Interaction with Angry Atheist(tm). She is now officially persecuted on this board. Need moar lions.

SallyAnne, by all means stay and keep posting. But you should know that there is a poll thread in an atheist forum here that you, as a theist, cannot access, and which asks 'What's SallyAnne's beef with atheists?'. It goes right now 'She is reacting to bad past experiences': 0, 'She is overcompensating her inferiority complex': 1, 'She knows deep down that her faith is BS': 6, 'Magical brownies': 2. Just saying.


If I were to vote for myself, I'd say I've spent far too much time around them. I should probably spend more time around Christians.

You probably shouldn't, IMV.

David


I can't anyway, it's a private joke for atheists only, I just said that I think I've spent far too much time around atheists (who I don't agree with or have any fellowship with) and not enough around Christians. It's like being amongst people you're never truly welcome with unless you start argreeing with them or become their pet.

[SallyAnne]

You have just provided SallyAnne with the recommended daily intake of Interaction with Angry Atheist(tm). She is now officially persecuted on this board. Need moar lions.

SallyAnne, by all means stay and keep posting. But you should know that there is a poll thread in an atheist forum here that you, as a theist, cannot access, and which asks 'What's SallyAnne's beef with atheists?'. It goes right now 'She is reacting to bad past experiences': 0, 'She is overcompensating her inferiority complex': 1, 'She knows deep down that her faith is BS': 6, 'Magical brownies': 2. Just saying.


If I were to vote for myself, I'd say I've spent far too much time around them. I should probably spend more time around Christians.

You probably shouldn't, IMV.

Positive reinforcement can be very powerful, and when you get positive reinforcement for obviously, demonstrably wrong stuff, like a literal Adam and Eve, that is really bad news.

David


Oh hang on. I misread what you meant, I thought you were saying that I shouldn't vote in the atheists private joke poll but you're saying I shouldn't spend more time around Christians.

I think I need to, it's nothing to do with "positive reinforcement" because I already believe and don't need positive reinforcement. It's more about fellowship in the spiritual sense.

[Lisa0315]

If I were to vote for myself, I'd say I've spent far too much time around them. I should probably spend more time around Christians.

You probably shouldn't, IMV.

David


I can't anyway, it's a private joke for atheists only, I just said that I think I've spent far too much time around atheists (who I don't agree with or have any fellowship with) and not enough around Christians. It's like being amongst people you're never truly welcome with unless you start argreeing with them or become their pet.

Weird because I find their brutal honesty refreshing compared to the nice to your face, stab you in the back kind of fellowship I have received from my brothers and sisters.

You were invited here to give a Christian point of view not judge people. I told you when I invited you that there would be no special treatment, no protection by Christian staff, and the questions would be hard.

Go to any fun thread, and you will find that the atheists leave these arguments behind and will be friends with you. This is not personal against you, but it is personal TO them. Do you understand the difference?

That is why I set up the "Throw Them to the Lions" thread so that they could get to know you and you could get to know them. I have enduring, long-time friendships with some of the folks here. They were friends with me when I held the most extreme fundy views, and they are still friends now. I attempted to convert them, tried to get some of them in trouble at CF, and they forgave me, welcomed me back, and told me how they felt in no uncertain terms.

Atheists will teach you a thing or two about how to follow Christ, I promise you that. They will teach you how to be a good human being period. It is kind of a thing with them.

Lisa

[David B]

If I were to vote for myself, I'd say I've spent far too much time around them. I should probably spend more time around Christians.

You probably shouldn't, IMV.

David


I can't anyway, it's a private joke for atheists only, I just said that I think I've spent far too much time around atheists (who I don't agree with or have any fellowship with) and not enough around Christians. It's like being amongst people you're never truly welcome with unless you start argreeing with them or become their pet.

That's actually not quite true. I, and many of us here, have a great deal of respect for able apologists.

And a great deal of respect for people like Glen Morton, who is an ex fundy, a geologist, and is now an Old Earth Creationist who stands up against biblical literalism in the Genesis creation and flood accounts.

If he were to come here, I would be over the moon.

David

[SallyAnne]

You probably shouldn't, IMV.

David


I can't anyway, it's a private joke for atheists only, I just said that I think I've spent far too much time around atheists (who I don't agree with or have any fellowship with) and not enough around Christians. It's like being amongst people you're never truly welcome with unless you start argreeing with them or become their pet.

That's actually not quite true. I, and many of us here, have a great deal of respect for able apologists.

And a great deal of respect for people like Glen Morton, who is an ex fundy, a geologist, and is now an Old Earth Creationist who stands up against biblical literalism in the Genesis creation and flood accounts.

If he were to come here, I would be over the moon.

David


I would be over the moon if Ryft from CF came here, he's my favourite one from CF.

[SallyAnne]

Weird because I find their brutal honesty refreshing compared to the nice to your face, stab you in the back kind of fellowship I have received from my brothers and sisters.

I dunno, a lot of Christians I come into contact with are pretty brutally honest. Maybe you latched onto the superficial ones.


You were invited here to give a Christian point of view not judge people. I told you when I invited you that there would be no special treatment, no protection by Christian staff, .

But I didn't get protection from Christian staff anyway, so I dunno who gets the "special treatment" over there but it doesn't apply to all Christians. So again, maybe you latched onto the superficial ones.

and the questions would be hard

The questions are loaded and framed from an atheist perspective, that's always hard. But they're the same old questions and arguments that appeared on CF (and every other atheist forum out there).


Go to any fun thread, and you will find that the atheists leave these arguments behind and will be friends with you. This is not personal against you, but it is personal TO them. Do you understand the difference?

Why would atheists want to be friends with me? Seriously, atheists think we are delusional and believe fairy tales, I don't understand how any friendship is formed on that basis. Maybe I can pretend that they don't think I'm delusional and pretend to be friends.


That is why I set up the "Throw Them to the Lions" thread so that they could get to know you and you could get to know them.

Oh, you mean the one where they're all kidding and laughing around about us? LOL, cool title "Throw them to the Lions" but really it's a place to get to know each other, haha.


I have enduring, long-time friendships with some of the folks here. They were friends with me when I held the most extreme fundy views, and they are still friends now. I attempted to convert them, tried to get some of them in trouble at CF, and they forgave me, welcomed me back, and told me how they felt in no uncertain terms.

Why would you want to get anyone into trouble over at CF?


Atheists will teach you a thing or two about how to follow Christ, I promise you that. They will teach you how to be a good human being period. It is kind of a thing with them.

Lisa


It's a shame you don't speak so highly about your brothers and sisters in Christ. It's a shame you don't have the same love for them. I'm pretty convinced that you must have known at least as many loving Christians from CF but you seem to have castigated your brethren in favour of atheists instead.

[TheBear]

Lighten up, everybody. Have a beer or something. I'll have one with you! :cheers:

[Lisa0315]

Weird because I find their brutal honesty refreshing compared to the nice to your face, stab you in the back kind of fellowship I have received from my brothers and sisters.

I dunno, a lot of Christians I come into contact with are pretty brutally honest. Maybe you latched onto the superficial ones.


You were invited here to give a Christian point of view not judge people. I told you when I invited you that there would be no special treatment, no protection by Christian staff, .

But I didn't get protection from Christian staff anyway, so I dunno who gets the "special treatment" over there but it doesn't apply to all Christians. So again, maybe you latched onto the superficial ones.



The questions are loaded and framed from an atheist perspective, that's always hard. But they're the same old questions and arguments that appeared on CF (and every other atheist forum out there).



Why would atheists want to be friends with me? Seriously, atheists think we are delusional and believe fairy tales, I don't understand how any friendship is formed on that basis. Maybe I can pretend that they don't think I'm delusional and pretend to be friends.



Oh, you mean the one where they're all kidding and laughing around about us? LOL, cool title "Throw them to the Lions" but really it's a place to get to know each other, haha.


I have enduring, long-time friendships with some of the folks here. They were friends with me when I held the most extreme fundy views, and they are still friends now. I attempted to convert them, tried to get some of them in trouble at CF, and they forgave me, welcomed me back, and told me how they felt in no uncertain terms.

Why would you want to get anyone into trouble over at CF?


Atheists will teach you a thing or two about how to follow Christ, I promise you that. They will teach you how to be a good human being period. It is kind of a thing with them.

Lisa


It's a shame you don't speak so highly about your brothers and sisters in Christ. It's a shame you don't have the same love for them. I'm pretty convinced that you must have known at least as many loving Christians from CF but you seem to have castigated your brethren in favour of atheists instead.

No, I bled for CF, literally and figuratively. The first time I ever MET Greenmunchkin online, she was very direct. She said, "My heart fell when I read your name here." Funny enough, she turned out to be one of the nicest ones there. Funny how the saying things right to your face ends up being easier to deal with and a whole lot less hypocritical. Oh, how about the ones who used their sock accounts to try and influence voting in their favor, then, bragged about it. Oh, that one ended up as an Admin. Oh, and I wasn't Conservative enough, didn't you hear? Also, a woman preacher was insulted until she left.

Oh, and in real life, my daughter didn't cry enough for the Lord. Oh, and then, there was the whole family who got punished by God cuz they let their boy play sports on Wednesday nights. Nevermind the Christians who literally physically tortured me on a daily basis until I got old enough to make them stop. If I complained, I was being disrespectful. So, hey, I just prayed and prayed and prayed and prayed...to die, but since that didn't happen, I went all OCD. I guess I figured that if I memorized enough Bible verses, I would finally be good enough. Uhm, nope. I was a worthless girl, not fit for anything except marrying a controling husband whom I needed to stay with until one of us died no matter how he abused me and the kids. I still have that Bible though. It is barely together but you should see all the different colored underlined verses, stars and numbers in it. I cannot remember the order and the rules, but I sure do remember spending hours doing it.

Yeppers, I am loving these old atheists right into hell, you know, the one they don't believe in? Yeah, I sure am a bad ole Christian hanging over here with all these sinners. My, my, my, let me know when people at CF think I am good enough to come hang out with them again. Oh, wait...I think they (with few exceptions) are NOT GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME.

Prolly cuz they are idiots and I am not, but hey! There, I go being all arrogant and shit. Must be from hanging out with these heathens all the time. God bless their little hearts. I am sure you are praying for all of them, me too, right?

Lisa

[Lisa0315]

I will report it myself.

Lisa

[TheBear]

SallyAnne,

Let me just say that you and Lisa have the same basic beliefs, and you both defend them. Lisa just comes across with love and compassion. Same beliefs, different approach. That's all.

[SallyAnne]

No, I bled for CF, literally and figuratively. The first time I ever MET Greenmunchkin online, she was very direct. She said, "My heart fell when I read your name here." Funny enough, she turned out to be one of the nicest ones there. Funny how the saying things right to your face ends up being easier to deal with and a whole lot less hypocritical. Oh, how about the ones who used their sock accounts to try and influence voting in their favor, then, bragged about it. Oh, that one ended up as an Admin. Oh, and I wasn't Conservative enough, didn't you hear? Also, a woman preacher was insulted until she left.

Oh, and in real life, my daughter didn't cry enough for the Lord. Oh, and then, there was the whole family who got punished by God cuz they let their boy play sports on Wednesday nights. Nevermind the Christians who literally physically tortured me on a daily basis until I got old enough to make them stop. If I complained, I was being disrespectful. So, hey, I just prayed and prayed and prayed and prayed...to die, but since that didn't happen, I went all OCD. I guess I figured that if I memorized enough Bible verses, I would finally be good enough. Uhm, nope. I was a worthless girl, not fit for anything except marrying a controling husband whom I needed to stay with until one of us died no matter how he abused me and the kids. I still have that Bible though. It is barely together but you should see all the different colored underlined verses, stars and numbers in it. I cannot remember the order and the rules, but I sure do remember spending hours doing it.

Yeppers, I am loving these old atheists right into hell, you know, the one they don't believe in? Yeah, I sure am a bad ole Christian hanging over here with all these sinners. My, my, my, let me know when people at CF think I am good enough to come hang out with them again. Oh, wait...I think they (with few exceptions) are NOT GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME.

Prolly cuz they are idiots and I am not, but hey! There, I go being all arrogant and shit. Must be from hanging out with these heathens all the time. God bless their little hearts. I am sure you are praying for all of them, me too, right?

Lisa



Actually, lets cut all the drama of your last two paragraphs because I can see from your preceeding text that you have suffered a lot of pain and I don't want to treat that lightly. It appears that you have experienced some very bad things in religion and around those who you regarded as Christian, instead of just "being" with you in your pain, they started piling on the religious guilt. I'm sorry for you, and I have no desire to keep piling it on just because you feel more comfortable around atheists.

But let me explain this from my point of view. I don't have any influence or power over at CF, I'm just one poster amongst thousands and try to take each person as they come rather than what "camp" they belong to. Naturally, I feel more welcome in some forums rather than others. So it lands me in hot water sometimes when I say things I shouldn't, and I never know what controversy is swirling over there and I truly believe that God doesn't want me involved in it because I never seem to be. So when you speak about some of the political wranglings that have taken place over there, I'll have to take your word for it because I'm not on the inside of anything and haven't got a clue how it works over there.

The first time I ever came into contact with you was when you invited me to GA because I made that declaration of faith on the fundy forum. I didn't know you from Adam and had no preconceived ideas about you, but I just responded to your invitation and went there. I didn't know what "flavour" of Christian you were but imagined that maybe you were fundy to be on that GA forum because obviously it was tough. Anyway, I read your posts in there and warmed to you very much, you defended the faith as best you could and I was very proud of you.

Then I took a break for a few months from CF and when I came back I discovered that the GA forum had closed in my absence. For a while I started thinking about some of the folks I had met there and missed you in particular. I went to some forums and started asking for you, asking where you and all the others had gone. Someone directed me to a board there that they thought everyone from GA had re-camped to but you weren't there. So I just thought "oh well she's left."

Then all of a sudden I hear from you about this place, I was glad to hear from you because I had missed you. So then I come here and I see you saying things about Christians, CF, and Christianity in general that I haven't seen from you before. It has nothing to do with not being "good enough" just that I had no idea you felt that negatively towards Christians and Christianity in general. Obviously, you have had bad experiences and it has tainted your view negatively and you prefer to be around atheists because they accept your negative feelings about Christianity and Christians and you formed previous friendships. But I OTOH was a bit taken a back by it and saw it more as badmouthing your brethren behind their backs, the very thing you accuse them of doing and having no love for them. But obviously you are hurt by what you've experienced and I accept that, it's understandable. I didn't fully comprehend all of this before and just regarded what you've been doing here as extemely judgemental of your own brothers and sisters where you put the atheists on a pedastal at the expense of your own brethren. I didn't like it and I never do like it when I see Christians siding against their own.

So when you're trying to make them appear wonderful at the expense of your own brethren that just made me feel crap because I do love the brethren. Sure, none of us is perfect, but we are supposed to love each other and and forgive each others sins not broadcast them to all the atheists, so I don't feel any desire to side with atheists against my own no. There is good and bad on both sides and we all just have to learn to live together in this mortal coil.

Anyway, I love you Lisa and I always missed you, I hope you will forgive me if you've felt judged, but I've felt judged myself by you as not being good enough for your friends here....So I'll probably just bow out now and leave this place. I'm obviously not communicating well anyway and I have no desire to side against Christians or Christianity in general to placate atheists.

I hope you keep well anyway and it was nice catching up with you. Bye to everyone else.

[Lisa0315]

No, I bled for CF, literally and figuratively. The first time I ever MET Greenmunchkin online, she was very direct. She said, "My heart fell when I read your name here." Funny enough, she turned out to be one of the nicest ones there. Funny how the saying things right to your face ends up being easier to deal with and a whole lot less hypocritical. Oh, how about the ones who used their sock accounts to try and influence voting in their favor, then, bragged about it. Oh, that one ended up as an Admin. Oh, and I wasn't Conservative enough, didn't you hear? Also, a woman preacher was insulted until she left.

Oh, and in real life, my daughter didn't cry enough for the Lord. Oh, and then, there was the whole family who got punished by God cuz they let their boy play sports on Wednesday nights. Nevermind the Christians who literally physically tortured me on a daily basis until I got old enough to make them stop. If I complained, I was being disrespectful. So, hey, I just prayed and prayed and prayed and prayed...to die, but since that didn't happen, I went all OCD. I guess I figured that if I memorized enough Bible verses, I would finally be good enough. Uhm, nope. I was a worthless girl, not fit for anything except marrying a controling husband whom I needed to stay with until one of us died no matter how he abused me and the kids. I still have that Bible though. It is barely together but you should see all the different colored underlined verses, stars and numbers in it. I cannot remember the order and the rules, but I sure do remember spending hours doing it.

Yeppers, I am loving these old atheists right into hell, you know, the one they don't believe in? Yeah, I sure am a bad ole Christian hanging over here with all these sinners. My, my, my, let me know when people at CF think I am good enough to come hang out with them again. Oh, wait...I think they (with few exceptions) are NOT GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME.

Prolly cuz they are idiots and I am not, but hey! There, I go being all arrogant and shit. Must be from hanging out with these heathens all the time. God bless their little hearts. I am sure you are praying for all of them, me too, right?

Lisa



Actually, lets cut all the drama of your last two paragraphs because I can see from your preceeding text that you have suffered a lot of pain and I don't want to treat that lightly. It appears that you have experienced some very bad things in religion and around those who you regarded as Christian, instead of just "being" with you in your pain, they started piling on the religious guilt. I'm sorry for you, and I have no desire to keep piling it on just because you feel more comfortable around atheists.

But let me explain this from my point of view. I don't have any influence or power over at CF, I'm just one poster amongst thousands and try to take each person as they come rather than what "camp" they belong to. Naturally, I feel more welcome in some forums rather than others. So it lands me in hot water sometimes when I say things I shouldn't, and I never know what controversy is swirling over there and I truly believe that God doesn't want me involved in it because I never seem to be. So when you speak about some of the political wranglings that have taken place over there, I'll have to take your word for it because I'm not on the inside of anything and haven't got a clue how it works over there.

The first time I ever came into contact with you was when you invited me to GA because I made that declaration of faith on the fundy forum. I didn't know you from Adam and had no preconceived ideas about you, but I just responded to your invitation and went there. I didn't know what "flavour" of Christian you were but imagined that maybe you were fundy to be on that GA forum because obviously it was tough. Anyway, I read your posts in there and warmed to you very much, you defended the faith as best you could and I was very proud of you.

Then I took a break for a few months from CF and when I came back I discovered that the GA forum had closed in my absence. For a while I started thinking about some of the folks I had met there and missed you in particular. I went to some forums and started asking for you, asking where you and all the others had gone. Someone directed me to a board there that they thought everyone from GA had re-camped to but you weren't there. So I just thought "oh well she's left."

Then all of a sudden I hear from you about this place, I was glad to hear from you because I had missed you. So then I come here and I see you saying things about Christians, CF, and Christianity in general that I haven't seen from you before. It has nothing to do with not being "good enough" just that I had no idea you felt that negatively towards Christians and Christianity in general. Obviously, you have had bad experiences and it has tainted your view negatively and you prefer to be around atheists because they accept your negative feelings about Christianity and Christians and you formed previous friendships. But I OTOH was a bit taken a back by it and saw it more as badmouthing your brethren behind their backs, the very thing you accuse them of doing and having no love for them. But obviously you are hurt by what you've experienced and I accept that, it's understandable. I didn't fully comprehend all of this before and just regarded what you've been doing here as extemely judgemental of your own brothers and sisters where you put the atheists on a pedastal at the expense of your own brethren. I didn't like it and I never do like it when I see Christians siding against their own.

So when you're trying to make them appear wonderful at the expense of the brethren that just made me feel crap because I do love the brethren, sure, none of us is perfect, but we are supposed to love each other and I don't feel any desire to side with atheists against my own. There is good and bad on both sides and we all just have to learn to live together in this mortal coil.

Anyway, I love you Lisa and I always missed you, I hope you will forgive me if you've felt judged, but I've felt judged myself by you....

This is why I invited *you* here and did not invite some others here. I invited the best Christians I knew from different levels of fundie to liberal, but I didn't invite any assholes.

I am angry with Christians in general. So far there has only been one consistent Christian poster who has never had a bad word to say about anyone, and that is Criada.

Believe me, I am guilty as charged. I do bad mouth Christians and I do get patted on the head a bit for it here, I suppose. Never thought about it before you pointed it out.

However, initially, way, way back in the day, I was not drawn to atheists for friendship as much as I was drawn by what I considered a calling. Unlike you, I was not a near-atheist because I didn't know that much about religion period. I had been raised in it, and I was a near-atheist because I hated, literally, hated Christians. I thought I understood how atheists felt but I didn't.

I made many of the same mistakes you are making here only it was in a controlled environment where atheists couldn't tell me what they really thought or that would be flaming. In many ways, it made it much harder to talk because there was always an offended Christian or staff member who would yank a post just in case it was flaming someone.

I remember that challenge I issued and you took me up on it. That is why I invited you here because one, you were not part of that old CF crowd, and two, you were one of the few Christians who did attempt GA. The folks who shut down GA had never even darkened the door, but called it a ghetto.

You do not know how atheists were treated there and you do not understand the heightened sensitivity to any Christian there will be unless respect is earned. Every atheist here at some point or another has likely encountered someone who told them that they were going to hell, and it was said in a cheerful way.

Anyway, I am sorry that I ranted at you, but I suppose you do need to know the depths of my bitterness. It is deep and I am not even trying to heal it to be honest. It festers and the only person it hurts is me. I know this lesson, learned it before and I guess I need to learn it again.

My problem is if I see snappy, snarky, or disrespectful tones, it brings it all back again. You have done a bit of that here. Humility goes a long way here. Saying I don't know and I am sorry is very, very important. It is not a bowing down kind of thing, but it is about intellectual honesty.

If you learn anything at all, and I used to think of GA as practice grounds for the real world, but if you learn anything at all here, learn to listen. There is validity in what they say, and in most cases, it comes from inner struggles which lasted years. Don't discount what atheists say here and try not to get angry back.

Believe me, it is easier said than done. My arguments with ronin are already notorious around this site, and the forum has only been open to the public since March 31st.

Some people just rub you the wrong way. In the case of ronin and myself, it was a case of me not having done apologetics in a long, long time, and I was spoiled to the highly controlled environment (in favor of Christians) of GA at CF. So, like at CF, I saw flames in almost every word when maybe I should have toughened up a bit.

You are not the only one who has stepped wrongly here. You are not the only one who has gotten a bit stubborn or flippant. Put me in a corner and I am going to fight.

This is a learning experience for everyone and the tone is still being set. This is a new board and unlike any other forum that has ever been. It is an attempt to take best practices from all the other boards folks have been a part of.

I am tired and I am rambling.

Lisa

[DMB]

I think you mean Ronin, Lisa, not rlogan.

[DMB]

SallyAnne, I would say that most people here have tried to engage you honestly and with reasonable politeness, although there is a spectrum for the latter quality.

Of course, we don't share your beliefs and we are not respectful of your beliefs. We are not respectful of anyone's beliefs, including one another's. We don't have an authoritative book that presents us with a favoured path to follow. We are all single, separate human beings trying to find our own way, and arguing about it while we do so.

Obviously in this particular forum, where the subject under discussion is religion, differences are going to come to the fore. But overall, don't you think we can share our common humanity, regardless of ideology?

[Barbarian]

If I were to vote for myself, I'd say I've spent far too much time around them. I should probably spend more time around Christians.OK, where do we fork from here? Let me just state that there is no such Atheist Basement subforum here that I know of, and I am 7.0 on the Dawkins scale, so I should know. I made the entire stuff up on the spot, during a very boring meeting I had to attend. My goal was to set up a number of continuations for this discussion, exemplifying the impossibility of proving a negative being the main branch. There were a couple of other apropos for subsequent discussion embedded in there, like preferential bias for believing bad things about atheists, the wonderful world of groupthink, the psychology of belief etc. depending on whether we started discussing the claim of having such a subforum, the fact of someone starting such a poll, the wording of any one of the choices or the alleged distribution of votes.

IOW the entire post reflects my opinion about what we should have been discussing at that stage of the nascent drama. It was a nice touch that Lisa played by (and no, I never believed that Ronin is her sock; Lisa50ck on the other hand ...).

In before someone tells me there is really such a forum, only I am not invited.

[SallyAnne]

SallyAnne, I would say that most people here have tried to engage you honestly and with reasonable politeness, although there is a spectrum for the latter quality.

Of course, we don't share your beliefs and we are not respectful of your beliefs. We are not respectful of anyone's beliefs, including one another's. We don't have an authoritative book that presents us with a favoured path to follow. We are all single, separate human beings trying to find our own way, and arguing about it while we do so.

Obviously in this particular forum, where the subject under discussion is religion, differences are going to come to the fore. But overall, don't you think we can share our common humanity, regardless of ideology?


Of course.

[JamesBannon]

So when you're trying to make them appear wonderful at the expense of the brethren that just made me feel crap because I do love the brethren, sure, none of us is perfect, but we are supposed to love each other and I don't feel any desire to side with atheists against my own. There is good and bad on both sides and we all just have to learn to live together in this mortal coil.

A desire to side with atheists against your own? That's a pretty strong condemnation, is it not? Why is it only Christians are brothers and sisters? Why not atheists too? We are, after all, human just like you. We think pretty much the same things, speak pretty much in the same way, wear similar kind of clothes, eat similar things and bleed the same colour. What makes us not brothers and sisters?

[SallyAnne]

So when you're trying to make them appear wonderful at the expense of the brethren that just made me feel crap because I do love the brethren, sure, none of us is perfect, but we are supposed to love each other and I don't feel any desire to side with atheists against my own. There is good and bad on both sides and we all just have to learn to live together in this mortal coil.

A desire to side with atheists against your own? That's a pretty strong condemnation, is it not? Why is it only Christians are brothers and sisters? Why not atheists too? We are, after all, human just like you. We think pretty much the same things, speak pretty much in the same way, wear similar kind of clothes, eat similar things and bleed the same colour. What makes us not brothers and sisters?




Nothing I guess, but I don't feel spiritually bonded with atheist brothers and sisters (apart from my real brother). But there are equally some Christians who I don't feel spiritually bonded with either.

[SallyAnne]

OK, where do we fork from here?


I dunno. Maybe I just need to spend more time with Christians. (yes I understand that you were making proposals about what we should have been discussing, it just got me thinking about something else).

[SallyAnne]

Anyway, I am sorry that I ranted at you


That's ok, I'm sorry too....

[Pendaric]

Hi SallyAnne.

A few observations and comments. I'm jumping in at the end of the thread rather than reading from the beginning, so forgive me if I have anything out of context:

I didn't think an atheist would take religion seriously,

Many of us take the subject very seriously indeed - that's why we have several discussion forums for it. A lot of people here spent several decades of their lives in the church, and at least one I know of here was a preacher. A fair number of people are educated to degree level on subjects which touch at least partially on the subjects under discussion.


Ok, in future I wont respond at all. I wanted to acknowledge that I accept what he said that's why I said "oh. ok" and I didn't have anything else to say because there is nothing else to say. I couldn't understand why an atheist would take the RCC seriously but DMB said that he did. That's it in a nutshell, there is nothing else to say unless I want to start arguing with DMB but I don't.

But don't worry, I wont even bother acknowledging in future.

Sometimes it's easier to just click the comment buttom at the bottom left hand side. That sends a private comment to the person who made the post, so if you just want to acknowledge to them that you've read it, it's an easy way to do it. Even so, please, feel free to respond and acknowledge publicly if that's your preference. Perhaps just consider the tone that can sometimes inadvertently come across.


I can't anyway, it's a private joke for atheists only, I just said that I think I've spent far too much time around atheists (who I don't agree with or have any fellowship with) and not enough around Christians. It's like being amongst people you're never truly welcome with unless you start argreeing with them or become their pet.

To clarify, just in case it isn't absolutely clear. Barbarian was joking - there is no private forum that you can't see other than the staff ones, and no poll concerning you.

You're more than welcome here, and we wanted people with opposing views. We can have a better discussion with people we disagree with than we can with people who just say yes every time.


Why would atheists want to be friends with me? Seriously, atheists think we are delusional and believe fairy tales, I don't understand how any friendship is formed on that basis. Maybe I can pretend that they don't think I'm delusional and pretend to be friends.

Having differing beliefs doesn't make us enemies. My wife is a fundamentalist Christian. So is my daughter. I won't pretend to be thrilled about that, but I still like and love them. There are plenty of Christians that I'm friends with, both in real life and on the net. You aren't just your religion.

Most of my friends I disagree with on some aspect, be it religious, political, or just what sports team we support. You can disagree with someone on a topic whilst still being friends with them.


Bye to everyone else.

I hope you hang around, but if you must go then keep safe and well.

[DMB]

So when you're trying to make them appear wonderful at the expense of the brethren that just made me feel crap because I do love the brethren, sure, none of us is perfect, but we are supposed to love each other and I don't feel any desire to side with atheists against my own. There is good and bad on both sides and we all just have to learn to live together in this mortal coil.

A desire to side with atheists against your own? That's a pretty strong condemnation, is it not? Why is it only Christians are brothers and sisters? Why not atheists too? We are, after all, human just like you. We think pretty much the same things, speak pretty much in the same way, wear similar kind of clothes, eat similar things and bleed the same colour. What makes us not brothers and sisters?

I have this horrible weakness for quotations, particularly from the Bard:

I am a Jew. Hath not a Jew eyes? Hath not a Jew hands, organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions; fed with the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject to the same diseases, heal'd by the same means, warm'd and cool'd by the same winter and summer as a Christian is? If you prick us, do we not bleed? If you tickle us, do we not laugh? If you poison us, do we not die?

[Lisa0315]

I think you mean Ronin, Lisa, not rlogan.

This is part of what is wrong with my brain. I block out confrontations to the point that I cannot remember them. This drives me crazy. Imagine trying to testify against someone and you know they harmed you but you cannot remember any details. Your voice shakes and you are very nervous and people read you as if you are lying but you aren't. You just have something very wrong with your brain.

If there is a staff member who would PLEASE edit my post and change rlogan to ronin for me, I would be eternally grateful.

Lisa

[JamesBannon]

So when you're trying to make them appear wonderful at the expense of the brethren that just made me feel crap because I do love the brethren, sure, none of us is perfect, but we are supposed to love each other and I don't feel any desire to side with atheists against my own. There is good and bad on both sides and we all just have to learn to live together in this mortal coil.

A desire to side with atheists against your own? That's a pretty strong condemnation, is it not? Why is it only Christians are brothers and sisters? Why not atheists too? We are, after all, human just like you. We think pretty much the same things, speak pretty much in the same way, wear similar kind of clothes, eat similar things and bleed the same colour. What makes us not brothers and sisters?

I have this horrible weakness for quotations, particularly from the Bard:

I am a Jew. Hath not a Jew eyes? Hath not a Jew hands, organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions; fed with the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject to the same diseases, heal'd by the same means, warm'd and cool'd by the same winter and summer as a Christian is? If you prick us, do we not bleed? If you tickle us, do we not laugh? If you poison us, do we not die?

Funnily enough, Shakespeare didn't even cross my mind when I was writing my little piece. Must have paraphrased unconsciously I guess.

[maddog]

Hi SallyAnne.

A few observations and comments. I'm jumping in at the end of the thread rather than reading from the beginning, so forgive me if I have anything out of context:

I didn't think an atheist would take religion seriously,

Many of us take the subject very seriously indeed - that's why we have several discussion forums for it. A lot of people here spent several decades of their lives in the church, and at least one I know of here was a preacher. A fair number of people are educated to degree level on subjects which touch at least partially on the subjects under discussion.

I'd like to make an observation also: It is not only former theists who take religion seriously. Even people who have never been theists, such as myself, can take seriously the historical, cultural, social and political influence of an institution. After all, religion is a very important aspect of many people's lives. If we take other human beings seriously, as I think we must, then we must take seriously their values and ideas, which inform their actions. That includes religion.


Human beings holding many different beliefs, values and ideas interact physically in the world. In order to live together, we must communicate and understand one another as well as we can.

For many human beings, their religion is important to them. If other human beings are important to us, their religions must necessarily be important to us as well.

I do not understand the mindset that draws boundaries that say, "well, he believes X and I do not; therefore what he believes is of no consequence or importance to me."

[Athier than you]

Lisa, the most angry atheists I have seen online almost invariably have very strongly Christian relatives who give them a hard time for their godlessness.


eudaimonia,

Mark

I agree. I find most atheists to be less angry that most believers. The exceptions to this rule are those who have to deal with people in their personal lives who attack their atheism and/or atheists who are actively protecting our freedom from religion and the right to an education based on science and not faith.

Personally, I become an angrier, more vocal atheist when I in a position where I have to repeatedly explain my lack of faith or repeatedly defend it. I have just recently realized how much more of a dick about religion I am when I date someone of faith. Of course, I have solved that issue but that would be a thread for another forum ;)

[Jobar]

SallyAnne, I have been discussing religion via the internet for more than ten years now, and I've seen many believers leave boards run by unbelievers. But I can't recall, just offhand, ever seeing a believer leave a skeptic's board because of a dispute with another believer.

I hope you decide not to leave; we want to have many points of view represented here. IIRC, Jesus suggested that his followers who talk with unbelievers should be "gentle as doves and wise as serpents"; I've seen people who have managed this at least to a degree, and those sorts are almost always interesting to talk to.

[Garnet]

SallyAnne, I have been discussing religion via the internet for more than ten years now, and I've seen many believers leave boards run by unbelievers. But I can't recall, just offhand, ever seeing a believer leave a skeptic's board because of a dispute with another believer.

You didn't pay much attention to the CF threads at IIDB and TR, did'ja? This kind of conflict between believers is just as common as...well...conflicts between any humans.

[Jobar]

SallyAnne, I have been discussing religion via the internet for more than ten years now, and I've seen many believers leave boards run by unbelievers. But I can't recall, just offhand, ever seeing a believer leave a skeptic's board because of a dispute with another believer.

You didn't pay much attention to the CF threads at IIDB and TR, did'ja? This kind of conflict between believers is just as common as...well...conflicts between any humans.

True enough. I only occasionally popped in to the CF Ref threads; and I don't recall ever seeing a disagreement such as this lead to one of the believers exiting stage left.

[Garnet]

SallyAnne, I have been discussing religion via the internet for more than ten years now, and I've seen many believers leave boards run by unbelievers. But I can't recall, just offhand, ever seeing a believer leave a skeptic's board because of a dispute with another believer.

You didn't pay much attention to the CF threads at IIDB and TR, did'ja? This kind of conflict between believers is just as common as...well...conflicts between any humans.

True enough. I only occasionally popped in to the CF Ref threads; and I don't recall ever seeing a disagreement such as this lead to one of the believers exiting stage left.

It was fairly common in the IIDB threads for someone to get pissed and leave. I don't mean to marginalize some of the hurt that was caused there, but the a common thing was about "bad mouthing" fellow Christians. The same thing that apparently cheesed off Sally Anne here.

I've seen some fairly venomous arguments about that and folks not being "true" Christians.

[Notta]

So when you're trying to make them appear wonderful at the expense of your own brethren that just made me feel crap because I do love the brethren.Fer crying out loud, Sallyanne, we're all brethren here! We're all human, aren't we?

I am an atheist. Hath not an atheist eyes? hath not an atheist hands, organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions? fed with the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject to the same diseases, healed by the same means, warmed and cooled by the same winter and summer, as a Christian is? If you prick us, do we not bleed? if you tickle us, do we not laugh? if you poison us, do we not die? and if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that.
What atheists will NOT do is imply you are not 'one of us' or one of our own 'brethren' because you do not share our belief system.

That's one of the nastier comments I've ever read from a Christian who is supposed to love 'everyone.' Didn't Jesus say the greatest commandment was to 'love one another'?

[Notta]

Funnily enough, Shakespeare didn't even cross my mind when I was writing my little piece. Must have paraphrased unconsciously I guess.Again, I jump the gun and post without first finishing the thread. Great minds, I guess....

I'm in good company if James and DMB got there ahead of me, though.

[SallyAnne]

So when you're trying to make them appear wonderful at the expense of your own brethren that just made me feel crap because I do love the brethren.Fer crying out loud, Sallyanne, we're all brethren here! We're all human, aren't we?

I am an atheist. Hath not an atheist eyes? hath not an atheist hands, organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions? fed with the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject to the same diseases, healed by the same means, warmed and cooled by the same winter and summer, as a Christian is? If you prick us, do we not bleed? if you tickle us, do we not laugh? if you poison us, do we not die? and if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that.
What atheists will NOT do is imply you are not 'one of us' or one of our own 'brethren' because you do not share our belief system.

That's one of the nastier comments I've ever read from a Christian who is supposed to love 'everyone.' Didn't Jesus say the greatest commandment was to 'love one another'?



The greatest commandment is:

'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments" (Matthew 22:37-40 NIV).

Jesus also gave a new commandment in John 13:34 --

"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.

It's not just "love everyone" except Christians. Love God, Love neighbour as ourselves (everyone), and Love one another (addressed to His children and how we should love one another, as Christ loved us).

[JamesBannon]

But that doesn't square with what you said, SallyAnne. Besides, how can an atheist love a being he / she doesn't believe in?

[SallyAnne]

But that doesn't square with what you said, SallyAnne. Besides, how can an atheist love a being he / she doesn't believe in?


I was initially addressing Lisa about her love for atheists but castigation for her brothers and sisters in Christ. And the greatest commandment is to Love God. Atheists instead focus on the second commandment about loving neighbour and try to claim that it is the greatest commandment but it isn't.

[Norrin Radd]

...

If I were to vote for myself, I'd say I've spent far too much time around them. I should probably spend more time around Christians.

Yeah, trust you to invite me here, then you call your handler at MI-5 and volunteer for another mission that has you vanish for several weeks.

[Norrin Radd]

...
That wasn't me being snarky or catty, that's your own judgement of it. But it's just me accepting what DMB said, there is nothing sinister about it. I didn't think an atheist would take religion seriously, DMB put me straight and I am accepting that that's why I said "oh. ok." If you want to read that negatively, that's your choice.

I know you weren't being nasty. Sometimes you just tend to make very short replies.

[Norrin Radd]

...


That wasn't me being snarky or catty, that's your own judgement of it. But it's just me accepting what DMB said, there is nothing sinister about it. I didn't think an atheist would take religion seriously, DMB put me straight and I am accepting that that's why I said "oh. ok." If you want to read that negatively, that's your choice.

Sometimes several such short replies to a single post.

[Norrin Radd]

...


That wasn't me being snarky or catty, that's your own judgement of it. But it's just me accepting what DMB said, there is nothing sinister about it. I didn't think an atheist would take religion seriously, DMB put me straight and I am accepting that that's why I said "oh. ok." If you want to read that negatively, that's your choice.

For some reason they apparently are not yet accustomed to your style.

[Norrin Radd]

So when you're trying to make them appear wonderful at the expense of the brethren that just made me feel crap because I do love the brethren, sure, none of us is perfect, but we are supposed to love each other and I don't feel any desire to side with atheists against my own. There is good and bad on both sides and we all just have to learn to live together in this mortal coil.

A desire to side with atheists against your own? That's a pretty strong condemnation, is it not? Why is it only Christians are brothers and sisters? Why not atheists too? We are, after all, human just like you. We think pretty much the same things, speak pretty much in the same way, wear similar kind of clothes, eat similar things and bleed the same colour. What makes us not brothers and sisters?

Because while I might enjoy certain areas of common ground with some atheists -- be it Buffy and Angel, or WWII movies starring Clint Eastwood -- while we share in basic physical humanity, I remember that fundamentally (so to speak ;)) we are not kin. Paul made it fairly clear that some remain in the first man, Adam, while others -- Xians -- are "in Christ," the Last Adam. He explicitly said there are two groups, "light" and "darkness," and the two groups have no fellowship. And he didn't invent that notion, it followed from what Jesus taught. Jesus was the One Who taught that some, and only some, are "born of the Spirit," "born of God," etc. Jesus was the One Who said He did not come to bring peace, but division and a sword. Jesus was the One Who said, "He who is not with Me is against Me." Jesus was the One Who said that His *true* family were those who followed Him, not His fleshly kin.

[Norrin Radd]

...
I have this horrible weakness for quotations, particularly from the Bard:
...

"Bard" spelled backwards is "drab."


Sometimes my brain has a mind of its own.

[DMB]

Sometimes my brain has a mind of its own.

Washed in the Blood of the Lamb? :D

[DMB]

A few quotes from the Holy Quran:

3.28. Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah.

3.85. And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.

5.14. From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the day of judgment. And soon will Allah show them what it is they have done.

5.51. O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

5.57. O ye who believe! take not for friends and protectors those who take your religion for a mockery or sport,- whether among those who received the Scripture before you, or among those who reject Faith; but fear ye Allah, if ye have faith (indeed).

5.72. They do blaspheme who say: "(Allah) is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.

48.29. Muhammad is the apostle of Allah. and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other.

So that's all right, then.

[JamesBannon]

So when you're trying to make them appear wonderful at the expense of the brethren that just made me feel crap because I do love the brethren, sure, none of us is perfect, but we are supposed to love each other and I don't feel any desire to side with atheists against my own. There is good and bad on both sides and we all just have to learn to live together in this mortal coil.

A desire to side with atheists against your own? That's a pretty strong condemnation, is it not? Why is it only Christians are brothers and sisters? Why not atheists too? We are, after all, human just like you. We think pretty much the same things, speak pretty much in the same way, wear similar kind of clothes, eat similar things and bleed the same colour. What makes us not brothers and sisters?

Because while I might enjoy certain areas of common ground with some atheists -- be it Buffy and Angel, or WWII movies starring Clint Eastwood -- while we share in basic physical humanity, I remember that fundamentally (so to speak ;)) we are not kin. Paul made it fairly clear that some remain in the first man, Adam, while others -- Xians -- are "in Christ," the Last Adam. He explicitly said there are two groups, "light" and "darkness," and the two groups have no fellowship. And he didn't invent that notion, it followed from what Jesus taught. Jesus was the One Who taught that some, and only some, are "born of the Spirit," "born of God," etc. Jesus was the One Who said He did not come to bring peace, but division and a sword. Jesus was the One Who said, "He who is not with Me is against Me." Jesus was the One Who said that His *true* family were those who followed Him, not His fleshly kin.

So, since I am not "born of the Spirit", according to you and some others like you, I am in a group that is "of the darkness". That's very touching, I must say. Exclusive much? I am chaff, one of the goats, a weed, someone with "bad soil", and so on ad nauseum. What an evil character I must be, eh? Meh, I'd rather burn!

[DMB]

James, you have to face the fact that while the Christians are going to be damned according to the Muslims and the Muslims will be damned according to the Christians, you and I are damned the deepest by all the gods we refuse to believe in.

[JamesBannon]

James, you have to face the fact that while the Christians are going to be damned according to the Muslims and the Muslims will be damned according to the Christians, you and I are damned the deepest by all the gods we refuse to believe in.

I know, DMB. The funny thing is, though, of all the good people I know on-line, yourself included, there's no difference at all between those who are Christian and those who are not. (I have no idea about Muslims since I don't know any). I find that rather odd, considering atheists will be condemned and Christians won't.

[DMB]

James, you have to face the fact that while the Christians are going to be damned according to the Muslims and the Muslims will be damned according to the Christians, you and I are damned the deepest by all the gods we refuse to believe in.

I know, DMB. The funny thing is, though, of all the good people I know on-line, yourself included, there's no difference at all between those who are Christian and those who are not. (I have no idea about Muslims since I don't know any). I find that rather odd, considering atheists will be condemned and Christians won't.

Ahh! But they will, for having chosen the wrong god. You can't have a sort of universal Pascal's Wager.

[JamesBannon]

From the pen of Scotland's greatest poet, and one of the greatest in the English language (and my ancestor):

O Thou, that in the heavens does dwell,
As it pleases best Thysel',
Sends aen to Heaven an' ten to Hell,
For Thy glory,
And no for onie guid or ill
They've done afore Thee!

I bless and praise Thy matchless might,
When thousands Thou hast left in night,
That I am here afore Thy sight,
For gifts an' grace
A burning and a shining light
To a' this place.

[SallyAnne]

...

If I were to vote for myself, I'd say I've spent far too much time around them. I should probably spend more time around Christians.

Yeah, trust you to invite me here, then you call your handler at MI-5 and volunteer for another mission that has you vanish for several weeks.


LOL, don't let my MI5 secret missions out of the bag, bro.:D

I'll have to shoot you now.;):p:D

[SallyAnne]

What an evil character I must be, eh?


No. Why do you say that?

[4321lynx]

Fer crying out loud, Sallyanne, we're all brethren here! We're all human, aren't we?


Notta. -- I'll have you know that I, Lynx, take great exception to being qualified as, and wrongfully accused of being, a thing as horrible as a human being.
Just because I have been sentenced for my sins by Our Father Lynx Almighty & All-merciful{who art in our heaven above of snows & forests & unending supplies of arctic hares}, been sentenced, I say, to live one quarter of eternity, however long that might be, in the shape of one of you perverted failures of evolution, ie humans, is no reason for me to put up with catty remarks {pun intended} about actually being one of you. Please don't call me that again.

You may now continue with your polite & impolite catfights about your so-called religion or so-called lack of it. Let the fur fly, and let the Trapper take the hindmost down to his Tropical Hell.

[Notta]

Fer crying out loud, Sallyanne, we're all brethren here! We're all human, aren't we?


Notta. -- I'll have you know that I, Lynx, take great exception to being qualified as, and wrongfully accused of being, a thing as horrible as a human being.
Just because I have been sentenced for my sins by Our Father Lynx Almighty & All-merciful{who art in our heaven above of snows & forests & unending supplies of arctic hares}, been sentenced, I say, to live one quarter of eternity, however long that might be, in the shape of one of you perverted failures of evolution, ie humans, is no reason for me to put up with catty remarks {pun intended} about actually being one of you. Please don't call me that again.

You may now continue with your polite & impolite catfights about your so-called religion or so-called lack of it. Let the fur fly, and let the Trapper take the hindmost down to his Tropical Hell.If you're going to split hairs, I'll have you know that I am in possession of a perfectly fine pussy and am literally covered in cat hair myself.

[4321lynx]

If you're going to split hairs, I'll have you know that I am in possession of a perfectly fine pussy and am literally covered in cat hair myself.

I'll believe it when I see it. What're you doing Friday night?:evil:

[Lisa0315]

Romance in the making? Their children will be Notta Lynx. :D

[4321lynx]

Romance in the making? Their children will be Notta Lynx. :D

I like-a that.:notworthy:
Nice-a Italian bambinos! :D You'se-a compadre too? That'sa nice-a!

[Norrin Radd]

A desire to side with atheists against your own? That's a pretty strong condemnation, is it not? Why is it only Christians are brothers and sisters? Why not atheists too? We are, after all, human just like you. We think pretty much the same things, speak pretty much in the same way, wear similar kind of clothes, eat similar things and bleed the same colour. What makes us not brothers and sisters?

Because while I might enjoy certain areas of common ground with some atheists -- be it Buffy and Angel, or WWII movies starring Clint Eastwood -- while we share in basic physical humanity, I remember that fundamentally (so to speak ;)) we are not kin. Paul made it fairly clear that some remain in the first man, Adam, while others -- Xians -- are "in Christ," the Last Adam. He explicitly said there are two groups, "light" and "darkness," and the two groups have no fellowship. And he didn't invent that notion, it followed from what Jesus taught. Jesus was the One Who taught that some, and only some, are "born of the Spirit," "born of God," etc. Jesus was the One Who said He did not come to bring peace, but division and a sword. Jesus was the One Who said, "He who is not with Me is against Me." Jesus was the One Who said that His *true* family were those who followed Him, not His fleshly kin.

So, since I am not "born of the Spirit", according to you and some others like you, I am in a group that is "of the darkness". That's very touching, I must say. Exclusive much?

As with many things, whether or not we are "exclusive" depends on your POV. Each of the Gospels ends, and the Book of Acts begins, with a version of the "Great Commission," where Christ's followers are "sent" as He was, told to "go" to the whole world, even the remotest parts, to make disciples from every nation (or ethnicity); in that sense, Xianity is very INclusive. But at the same time, the world always divides into "believers" and "non-believers," and the two groups are by
nature mutually exclusive.



I am chaff, one of the goats, a weed, someone with "bad soil", and so on ad nauseum. What an evil character I must be, eh? Meh, I'd rather burn!

I'd rather you didn't, but the choice is not mine.

[JamesBannon]

I'd rather you didn't, but the choice is not mine.
And, according to the confession of faith of the Scottish kirk, it's not mine either. Not that I'm especially concerned about that. Even if your god does decide to tell me I'm "saved", he'll get told where can shove his "gift". I'll take my chances with Satan instead. Of course, since I don't believe in any of this mumbo jumbo, it makes no difference.

The replies do illustrate one thing with perfect clarity: unbelievers are second-class humans. Nuts to that! I don't consider believers to be second-class humans, even if they do make me angry from time-to-time.

[4321lynx]

Coming back to this human/animal thing.

If you human believers & non believers both think you're such good & superiorly evolved animals/souls/god's images etc etc, I hope you know this site. It will feed shelter animals for free, all it needs is a daily click.
It will also bring home to those too busy praying & those too busy being proud of not praying, what some of you "super beings" are really like.

http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/clickToGive/home.faces


Please visit, read, inwardly digest, & click daily.
You can get daily reminders to click.
You can click more than once, as long as your clicks are separated & not consecutive, or it will take you for a robot.
IMHlynxO most humans are robots, complicated & self assured, but robots nevertheless.

But take no notice of my humble opinion, visit the site & see for yourself. Guaranteed harmless, no viruses, not even pig 'flu. :D

Regards, and may the Great Lynx in the Sky be kind to you.

Lynx