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DMB
25 Nov 2010, 02:03 PM
Can they be universal?

Nice article here from Pakistan:

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2010\11\02\story_2-11-2010_pg3_2

Some Muslim history:

Students of classic Islamic history would recall that the era of conquest and expansion of the Umayyad caliphate (661-750 AD) was superseded by a period of consolidation under the early Abbasids (roughly 750-900). During their heyday, culture and science flourished. The court of Abbasid caliphs was studded with a galaxy of original thinkers, and the atmosphere was enlightened and tolerant. As a result, different schools of thought could debate with considerable freedom perennial theological and philosophical questions about the nature of God, revelation, reason, free will and so on.

The Asharites represented the literalist tradition, which upheld an anthropomorphist conception of God, suggesting that nothing happened in this world without His knowledge and approval, and things were good or bad because God had said so and not because they could be evaluated on some rational basis. In sharp contrast, the Mu’tazila presented the natural law school that assumed that the moral value of an act could be determined through the exercise of independent human reason. Such an approach affirmed the moral value of all human beings and their ability, regardless of faith, to comprehend basic values of right and wrong.

In the longer run, the Asharite school prevailed and the Mu’tazila were sidelined. After the sacking of Baghdad by the Mongols in 1258, advocates of free will and universal human reason were in short supply. Neo-Asharites, ranging from traditional Muslims to the fundamentalists, came to dominate Muslim societies. In the contemporary period too, neo-Asharite mode of thinking prevails in both Sunni and Shia societies, though the original elements that constituted the Asharite and Mu’tazilite standpoints are forgotten. The heroic efforts of the indefatigable Dr Riffat Hassan and of Dr Javed Iqbal, besides the Islamic Universal Declaration of Human Rights (1981), are cases in point of the neo-Asharite thinking and argumentation.

It is a misunderstanding that human rights are simply a derivative of western civilisation. If that were true, the world would not have witnessed the wars of religion, persecution of minority sects, and atypical ethnic and racial groups, the two world wars, Nazism and fascism and the Holocaust that emerged within that civilisation. On the other hand, a connection between cosmopolitan ideas and movements from the ancient period, the development of liberal and socialist thought in the modern period and the overall advances in democratic government within western civilisation have most certainly contributed to the evolution of universal human rights.

In all civilizations, there are forces that represent tribalism and forces that represent humanism. Orthodox Hinduism with its fixed caste hierarchy represents the tribal exclusiveness of the Indo-European tribes that conquered the Indian subcontinent and subjugated the indigenous peoples of this region. The caste system embodies that tribalism. On the other hand, the Bhakti movement and other anti-caste cults that evolved in our region represent universalism and humanism. Similarly, within the Islamic civilization, the Mu’tazila and the rebel Sufis represent humanism and universalism. Mainstream Sunnism and Shiaism are expressions of tribalism and exclusivity.

Keeping these things in mind, one can indeed invoke Mu’tazila and Sufi arguments to justify universal, non-discriminatory human rights. There is already a very rich heritage available in the Punjabi, Seraiki and Sindhi Sufi literatures, which can be invoked to develop an argument for Muslims to live in peace with others, believers and non-believers, as long as they obey the law, pay the taxes and render their duties as required by the law.

In other words, it would be a truly creative contribution if a set of arguments can be derived from within Islam to justify the current package of universal human rights. Neo-Mu’tazila and Sufi arguments will have to be updated in the light of the overall advances in our knowledge about human beings, the nature of modern economies and the dynamics of contemporary politics. On the other hand, to propose an alternative, culturally specific Islamic package of human rights would defeat the philosophy and purpose underlying human rights.

Ozymandias
26 Nov 2010, 12:42 AM
I don't believe in the concept of human rights.

rog
26 Nov 2010, 01:14 AM
I don't believe in the concept of human rights.

Do you care to expand a bit? Enquiring minds want to know.

Ozymandias
26 Nov 2010, 01:20 AM
I don't believe in the concept of human rights.

Do you care to expand a bit? Enquiring minds want to know.

I don't believe that our societies enshrine human rights. Our rights are entirely conditional on us behaving ourselves. That is not a right - a right is something you always have that cannot be taken away.

But having said that, I don't believe that all people are equal, so I don't believe that all people should have equal human rights.

rog
26 Nov 2010, 01:21 AM
I don't believe that all people are equal, so I don't believe that all people should have equal human rights.

Go on...

Ozymandias
26 Nov 2010, 01:22 AM
What's more to say? It is obvious that people aren't equal.

rog
26 Nov 2010, 01:24 AM
What's more to say? It is obvious that people aren't equal.

But in terms of rights, or rather how they can expect to be treated by their government?

Ozymandias
26 Nov 2010, 01:31 AM
They can expect to be treated by there government fairly, but that is because of the collective will of the people. When people are badly treated, people worry that they will be next, so they depose the government. It has nothing to do with rights.

rog
26 Nov 2010, 01:38 AM
It has nothing to do with rights.

Although I think you are backing away from your original statement, belying an unpleasant sentiment perchance - I have to agree power is what matters as far as these things are concerned.

Garrett
28 Nov 2010, 01:58 AM
- a right is something you always have that cannot be taken away.
What makes you say that?

right: 2: something to which one has a just claim: as a : the power or privilege to which one is justly entitled <voting rights> <his right to decide>

As a matter of fact, we have rights, and they can be taken away.

But having said that, I don't believe that all people are equal, so I don't believe that all people should have equal human rights.
We can't have human rights unless everyone is exactly the same? That seems silly. Men and women aren't the same, but they all should be allowed to do their jobs without being sexually harassed, for example.

Eudaimonist
28 Nov 2010, 09:23 AM
I don't think that human rights have anything to do with us being "equal", but with us being human. Even so, we may still be equal under the law, even if we don't have equal IQs, talents, looks, motivation, character, etc.

As for whether or not human rights will be accepted by a culture, that depends on the basic values of that culture. This says nothing about whether or not human rights are desirable and should be adopted, but only whether or not they will be adopted.

I do believe that we all "have" human rights, which is simply another way of saying that we can be mistreated, even by governments, and that this is a bad and undesirable thing. When our rights are violated, even in a nation that doesn't recognize them, we have been done wrong. We may justifiably object.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Jack Willsson
28 Nov 2010, 11:06 AM
People are obviously not all the same but why put values on their differences?

What does "not equal" mean?

We're all used to some being "more equal than others" but that is simply another way of pointing out that might is most commonly right and the weak must go to the wall.

People have equal capacities to suffer from injustice.

Even those who forfeit their right to freedom under the law of their land have a right to be treated humanely and authorities that that don't recognise those rights deserve to be treated as sub-standard by those who do.

rcscwc
10 Dec 2010, 10:22 AM
Can they be universal?

Nice article here from Pakistan:

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2010\11\02\story_2-11-2010_pg3_2

Some Muslim history:

Students of classic Islamic history would recall that the era of conquest and expansion of the Umayyad caliphate (661-750 AD) was superseded by a period of consolidation under the early Abbasids (roughly 750-900). During their heyday, culture and science flourished. The court of Abbasid caliphs was studded with a galaxy of original thinkers, and the atmosphere was enlightened and tolerant. As a result, different schools of thought could debate with considerable freedom perennial theological and philosophical questions about the nature of God, revelation, reason, free will and so on.

The Asharites represented the literalist tradition, which upheld an anthropomorphist conception of God, suggesting that nothing happened in this world without His knowledge and approval, and things were good or bad because God had said so and not because they could be evaluated on some rational basis. In sharp contrast, the Mu’tazila presented the natural law school that assumed that the moral value of an act could be determined through the exercise of independent human reason. Such an approach affirmed the moral value of all human beings and their ability, regardless of faith, to comprehend basic values of right and wrong.

In the longer run, the Asharite school prevailed and the Mu’tazila were sidelined. After the sacking of Baghdad by the Mongols in 1258, advocates of free will and universal human reason were in short supply. Neo-Asharites, ranging from traditional Muslims to the fundamentalists, came to dominate Muslim societies. In the contemporary period too, neo-Asharite mode of thinking prevails in both Sunni and Shia societies, though the original elements that constituted the Asharite and Mu’tazilite standpoints are forgotten. The heroic efforts of the indefatigable Dr Riffat Hassan and of Dr Javed Iqbal, besides the Islamic Universal Declaration of Human Rights (1981), are cases in point of the neo-Asharite thinking and argumentation.

It is a misunderstanding that human rights are simply a derivative of western civilisation. If that were true, the world would not have witnessed the wars of religion, persecution of minority sects, and atypical ethnic and racial groups, the two world wars, Nazism and fascism and the Holocaust that emerged within that civilisation. On the other hand, a connection between cosmopolitan ideas and movements from the ancient period, the development of liberal and socialist thought in the modern period and the overall advances in democratic government within western civilisation have most certainly contributed to the evolution of universal human rights.

In all civilizations, there are forces that represent tribalism and forces that represent humanism. Orthodox Hinduism with its fixed caste hierarchy represents the tribal exclusiveness of the Indo-European tribes that conquered the Indian subcontinent and subjugated the indigenous peoples of this region. The caste system embodies that tribalism. On the other hand, the Bhakti movement and other anti-caste cults that evolved in our region represent universalism and humanism. Similarly, within the Islamic civilization, the Mu’tazila and the rebel Sufis represent humanism and universalism. Mainstream Sunnism and Shiaism are expressions of tribalism and exclusivity.

Keeping these things in mind, one can indeed invoke Mu’tazila and Sufi arguments to justify universal, non-discriminatory human rights. There is already a very rich heritage available in the Punjabi, Seraiki and Sindhi Sufi literatures, which can be invoked to develop an argument for Muslims to live in peace with others, believers and non-believers, as long as they obey the law, pay the taxes and render their duties as required by the law.

In other words, it would be a truly creative contribution if a set of arguments can be derived from within Islam to justify the current package of universal human rights. Neo-Mu’tazila and Sufi arguments will have to be updated in the light of the overall advances in our knowledge about human beings, the nature of modern economies and the dynamics of contemporary politics. On the other hand, to propose an alternative, culturally specific Islamic package of human rights would defeat the philosophy and purpose underlying human rights.

What do you expect from a Pak rag, who swears by Aryan Invasion BS?

DMB
10 Dec 2010, 10:23 AM
Is that your best, considered criticism?

rcscwc
11 Dec 2010, 12:41 AM
Tes. A few Pak papers published Wikileaks to show that Indian generals are genocidals and foment troubles in Pak.

But they were proved LIES.

ISLAMABAD: Two of Pakistan's leading newspapers The News and The Express Tribune on Friday apologised for carrying a story that used fake US diplomatic cables (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/topic/search?q=US diplomatic cables) to brand Indian generals "genocidal" and accused New Delhi (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/topic/New-Delhi) of sponsoring militants.

The apologies came after Britain's Guardian newspaper, which has has the leaked cables' database, said the Pakistani newspapers had "exploited the WikiLeaks (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/topic/Wikileaks) for propaganda purposes" and that it failed to locate any of the "incendiary allegations about India (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/topic/India)."

The story claimed on Thursday that the cables showed Indian spies were supporting militants in Pakistan's northwest tribal region of Waziristan and the southwestern province of Baluchistan. The newspapers reported that the US diplomats thought of one Indian general as "incompetent" and a "geek", and of another as "self-obsessed, petulant and idiosyncratic" and "barely tolerated" by subordinates. It likened another to late Serbian strongman Slobodan
Milosevic "with regard to butchering Muslims through war crimes" in Kashmir.

The two papers carried apologies on their front pages and blamed an Islamabad-based wire service for the hoax. "The Express Tribune deeply regrets publishing this story without due verification and apologises profusely for any inconvenience caused," said the daily, a partner of the International Herald Tribune.

The News said it had run the wire service's report with the confidence that it was genuine and vetted before release. ``However, several inquiries suggest that this was not the case,'' it said.


Read more: Red-faced, Pak dailies regret fake India report - The Times of India (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/pakistan/Red-faced-Pak-dailies-regret-fake-India-report/articleshow/7079870.cms#ixzz17lMreCAX) http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/pakistan/Red-faced-Pak-dailies-regret-fake-India-report/articleshow/7079870.cms#ixzz17lMreCAX

They think nothing faking and forging when it comes to India. They are votaries of AIT, you know.

Garrett
11 Dec 2010, 07:17 AM
let it be

DMB
11 Dec 2010, 07:58 PM
I don't think you've actually read the article I linked to in the OP, rcscwc. It's hardly suggesting that Pakistan is always right.

rcscwc
13 Dec 2010, 03:18 AM
I don't have to read it. You graphically told us a lot, it is another matter that graphic accounts are concocted.

Re Wikileaks. That lie about India and Indian generals was repeated by many, many Pak papers. Rags, no doubt, in search of pushing their sales, on the time tested recipe of anti India, anti Hindu tirades.

DMB
13 Dec 2010, 04:36 AM
You seem to me to be determined to put forward the idea that India is always right and anyone with any connection with Pakistan is bound to be wrong. Have I got that correctly? If so, how do you justify it?

BioBeing
14 Dec 2010, 04:20 PM
You seem to me to be determined to put forward the idea that India is always right and anyone with any connection with Pakistan is bound to be wrong. Have I got that correctly? If so, how do you justify it?

It's obvious, DMB. He is from India, therefore he is always right.

:dunno:

Schneibster
14 Dec 2010, 11:38 PM
Wow, Indian anti-Pakistan astroturfing. This place never ceases to amaze me.