So I'm thinking of becoming a theist ...

[Black5]

Specifically as a follower of Maitreya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maitreya) who (according to Wikipedia) is "is a future Buddha of this world in Buddhist eschatology".

Some background. I was brought up as an atheist. Religion of any kind wasn't important to my parents and so I wasn't exposed to any as a child. I've been inside a church less then a dozen times in my life. I'd rate myself a 6.9 on Richard Dawkins' Theist-Atheist Scale (http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=64709&show=0). I have great concerns about religion, specifically the actions theists take based solely on beliefs. As much as I would like it the majority of the world doesn't operate on evidence and reason. Given the problems that face us as civilization (and species) taking action from a starting point not based in reality is dangerous. Of course not all theists act on their beliefs to the detriment of others. Of course irrational thinking and action isn't limited only to theists. Human beings can justify any action.

However, a few weeks ago I stumbled across the Leshan Giant Buddha (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leshan_Giant_Buddha) and I had these thoughts.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/14/Leshan_DaF0_Grand_Buddha.JPG

If I was to choose a religion Buddhism wouldn't be a bad choice. From the little I know it seems to follow the Golden Rule (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethic_of_reciprocity) which I practice already. Additionally, the dedication and effort it took to carve this Buddha is worthy of emulation. I can imagine an idealized way of life the monks lead while working on it. Think of the conversations they had.

I feel no need for spirituality in my life. Nor do I need an explanation for everything. I'm comfortable saying "I don't know". Science is providing the answers for most things anyway. However, to act on my concerns about religion I seek out discussions with theists. Education, through the sharing of ideas, is an integral part of a solution. Unfortunately effective discussions between theists and atheists are rare. Both sides talk at each other frequently but they listen less often. Two ideas why this occurs would be solved by a conversion to theism. First, an elimination of the atheist label from the equation. I hate labels. It's too easy to classify someone as X and as soon as that happens you've automatically imposed your thoughts of X onto them whether they are true or not. Atheism has a unknown if not negative connotation for many believers and is therefore a less then ideal starting point for a discussion with them. Second, shared experience. Without common ground it is difficult to understand and empathize with someone else.

If I decide to convert my plan is to do so as consciously and rationally as possible. I have a clean slate regarding Buddhism and so will be reading as much as I can. While I do so I will decide which Buddhist practices and beliefs to adopt. I also plan on documenting the process as it occurs. I acknowledge this approach is probably very different then the one taken by the majority of theists. However, I think it will be an education for me and a good opportunity for discussions with theists.

Thoughts?

[Brianna]

Buddha is not a god.

[court and spark]

Follow your heart and believe what makes you feel happiest. :)

[dancer_rnb]

You need to look deeply at several schools, I think, before choosing one.
Especially what used to be called Lesser Wheel.

[BWE]

Zen is good but I've heard monastic life isn't all it's cracked up to be. Did you encounter the statue in person?

:weird topic:

[Sticky Beak]

Follow your head and believe what makes sense.

[Ronin]

From the little I know it seems to follow the Golden Rule which I practice already.

Then kill the Buddha.

:wave:

[DMB]

It's certainly possible to be atheist and Buddhist. But do you really think you can take all that reincarnation on board?

[David B]

There were the word ''I'm thinking of becoming a theist".

What is a theist?

What is thinking?

And what is the 'I'?

All concepts to be dropped?

You might find this helpful, though Susan Blackmore is not a Buddhist.

But then, no true Buddhist can be a Buddhist.

http://www.wildmind.org/blogs/book-reviews/ten-zen-questions-by-susan-blackmore

David B (is also not a Buddhist:)

[Ray Moscow]

I still haven't decided whether the modern Maitreya movement is Po or real.

It's pretty woo-woo.

[Ray Moscow]

Here's a link on Maitreya. (http://www.share-international.org/)

One of their "appearance" things was a reflection on a hotel near me (http://www.share-international.org/background/miracles/mi_circles.htm). I thought that was pretty funny.

[Bane]

One of those followers of the Maitreya movement tried to convert me a couple years ago at a holistic health event. Just my opinion, but any religion that evangelises isn't one I want to follow.

[DMB]

I agree that the giant Buddha is remarkable, but what about the dedication that produced the many magnificent cathedrals of Europe? See for example this one: http://vrcoll.fa.pitt.edu/medart/image/France/Chartres/Chartres-Cathedral/chartres-main.html

Or how about this:

http://images.google.ch/images?hl=en&q=isfahan+mosque&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=mBXSSbzRMJjhsAbH3sW9Bg&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&resnum=1&ct=title

I don't think the effort or even the artistic result can justify the belief structure.

[Eudaimonist]

One of those followers of the Maitreya movement tried to convert me a couple years ago at a holistic health event. Just my opinion, but any religion that evangelises isn't one I want to follow.

This group sounds a bit cultish to me. I'd treat this group with caution.


eudaimonia,

Mark

[BioBeing]

I agree that the giant Buddha is remarkable, but what about the dedication that produced the many magnificent cathedrals of Europe? See for example this one: http://vrcoll.fa.pitt.edu/medart/image/France/Chartres/Chartres-Cathedral/chartres-main.html

Or how about this:

http://images.google.ch/images?hl=en&q=isfahan+mosque&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=mBXSSbzRMJjhsAbH3sW9Bg&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&resnum=1&ct=title

I don't think the effort or even the artistic result can justify the belief structure.

This is what I was thinking.

The level of fanaticism employed does not make a religion worthy of following per se. Was this the most rational utilization of resources? How many people were hurt or killed while making this? How much time was wasted that could have been better spent on growing food or doing something more productive? Religious displays of excess (cathedrals, statues) are just that: displays to make other people thing how wonderful your religion must be, and how rich/powerful you must be. Hardly sounds Buddhist to me.

[Hex]

Buddha is not a god.

Siddhartha was simply a man who became enlightened, and at the crux, early Buddhism was more of a philosophical loophole to the worldview of Brahmanism. But once you get the 'evolving' Buddhisms of the Kush and then through China, 'The Buddha' is deified (as are anyone else who attains enlightenment) and the Bodhisattva are akin to Catholic Saints as those who have attained enlightenment but stick around in the supernatural world to aid those still alive and working toward Nirvana. The 'Free Land' version of Buddhism that thrived in China would be classified as such a theistic religion.

It's certainly possible to be atheist and Buddhist. But do you really think you can take all that reincarnation on board?

Right. In here, the appeal of the four noble truths and the eightfold path are your friends here in this existence, with no need to worry about future ones. The message of cutting out the suffering you produce for yourself is a strong one.

One of those followers of the Maitreya movement tried to convert me a couple years ago at a holistic health event. Just my opinion, but any religion that evangelises isn't one I want to follow.

This group sounds a bit cultish to me. I'd treat this group with caution.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Well, glancing at the description, they certainly seem fit in with the Millennial/Savior aspects of a revitalizing cult. Definitely do more research on them before just diving in!

[Brother Daniel]

If I decide to convert my plan is to do so as consciously and rationally as possible.
If you're talking about choosing your beliefs (the most straightforward interpretation of "decid to convert"), then you've thrown rationality out the window from the start.

Feel free to read up on it. More education is always good. And if you [i]discover that it is convincing to you, then I have no problem with any resulting belief or "conversion". But if you choose to believe (as part of some grand plan to be able to talk to theists more effectively, for example), then you're just lying to yourself.

[Zebulon]

I stumbled across the Leshan Giant Buddha

I first read that as "Lesbian Giant Buddha". :p

You might be interested in reading this: Buddhism without Beliefs (http://www.amazon.com/Buddhism-without-Beliefs-Stephen-Batchelor/dp/1573226564/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1238524548&sr=8-1).

Although I personally prefer humanism to buddhism; it is less quietistic and more optimistic.

[Black5]

Thanks for the feedback. This is an experiment and it helps clarify my thinking and plans. For example, it's obvious that I need to to flesh what a conscious and rational conversion really means.

As I learn about Buddhism and it's practices I will choose which to adopt based their intended goal with a strong avoidance of any that have negative effects on others and the environment around me.

Regarding beliefs. My thinking is entirely grounded in logic, facts and evidence and I'm not looking for a way around this. I don't expect to adopt beliefs that are not backed by the same. I don't expect nor desire to acquire any faith as part of this process. Reincarnation is a good example. I don't believe in it now and I don't think this will change. I'm happy to realize that the atoms that make up my body will continue to exist for billions of years as part of other objects in the universe.

Consider it this way. I'm going to pick and choose which aspects of Buddhism I will adopt using a logical and rational basis. I won't be the first theist to cherry pick their religious practices. I may be among a small few who explains why each choice was made.

I am not doing this to fill some kind of spiritual hole in my life. Nor am I doing it because I think it will make me happier. I have no desire to evangelize the religion and convert others to it. This is purely a solitary exercise.

[Black5]

I don't think the effort or even the artistic result can justify the belief structure. Agreed.

[Ada]

Hi Black5,

Consider it this way. I'm going to pick and choose which aspects of Buddhism I will adopt using a logical and rational basis. I won't be the first theist to cherry pick their religious practices. I may be among a small few who explains why each choice was made.

It does not sound right to me to call what you are trying to do "becoming a theist". Theist is a person who believes in personal God. God who lives outside of natural universe, God who can intervene breaking laws of nature, God who listen to your prayers. It was quite surprising to me to discover that Theists + Atheists does not cover the whole belief system. There are deists (god exist, maybe created universe, but does not care for us), there are pantheists (God is universe), and also there is NewAge (some of them do not believe in God or Godess but believe in lots of supernatural things i.e. ghosts, fortune telling, astrology).

I am not doing this to fill some kind of spiritual hole in my life. Nor am I doing it because I think it will make me happier. I have no desire to evangelize the religion and convert others to it. This is purely a solitary exercise.

Why not? Having meaningful spiritual practices and community could fill some of you holes or longings. And could make you happier and could turn into communal practice.


Organized religion works on many fronts. It is not only philosophy.
Here is and interesting book (online) dissecting what people gain from organized religions and how the same things could be sought outside of it and why even secular people may want to look for that.
http://www.tassos-oak.com/readbook.html

I was Catholic and I hated sacrifice of reason it required. I also hated the "our way or highway" aspect of it.
From today's perspective I can say that art aspect of Catholic Church attracted me a lot. Yes, the cathedrals, the sculptures, paintings, music, incenses. All of that was moving and out-of-ordinary.

If you ask me about what do I believe or what is my religion I answer Naturalist or Atheist.

After many years of not belonging to any kind of church I am active member of UU church. I like community, I like exposure to different (dis)beliefs and I like some ritualistic aspects of it.
I made a lot of picking-and-choosing till now. I do yoga, I attempt to meditate, I can admire art produced by different religions with no guilt or artificial meaning attached. I enjoy myths, fairy tales or parables as folk way of explaining psychological processes. And I enjoy "forget about mundane" aspect of rituals.

I do not think it makes me theistic at all.

:-) Ada

[dancer_rnb]

As I learn about Buddhism and it's practices I will choose which to adopt based their intended goal with a strong avoidance of any that have negative effects on others and the environment around me.

.

You realize you will have to abandon this?:evil:

[Black5]

Ada, I use the word theist as the opposite of atheism because I'm trying to keep the distinction simple. Yes there are degrees and subtle considerations as you have mentioned but since one of my goals is to remove labels I'm trying to avoid delving into those.

[Black5]

As I learn about Buddhism and it's practices I will choose which to adopt based their intended goal with a strong avoidance of any that have negative effects on others and the environment around me.You realize you will have to abandon this?:evil:I don't think so although I'm interested in finding and examining practices which would require me to do so.

[Moriah Conquering Wind]

Conscious/rational and conversion would be mutually exclusive. The latter requires a mind snap. The former prevents one and can only extend as far as mental assent to a set of doctrinal and ontological propositions.

[Hex]

Conscious/rational and conversion would be mutually exclusive. The latter requires a mind snap. The former prevents one and can only extend as far as mental assent to a set of doctrinal and ontological propositions.

I agree if belief is the crux of the conversion. Faith, by necessity, needs to trump the 'conscious/rational' aspect from time to time.

But if you're just looking for a code of ethics or a general philosophy that you can take from a religion without the belief, then I think you can do it. But then it's not a real conversion, I suppose ... :dunno:

[Jobar]

Religion is more about feeling than it is about thinking. So, when you say that you're *thinking* about joining some religion, it's more probably because of some emotion than it is about any intellectual cause.

Why do you feel any need to believe something beyond your own senses?

[Black5]

I agree with Moriah, conversion was the wrong word to use. Practice would be more appropriate.

My main purpose in thinking about doing this is as I said in my OP a) to eliminate the atheist label and b) shared experience with a goal towards being in a better position to discuss religion with theists.