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View Full Version : Creationists: Whale fossils in Chilean desert are proof of Noah's flood!


phands
20 Dec 2011, 11:08 AM
http://creation.com/chile-desert-whale-fossils

I still receive the CMI Infobytes newsletter - always good for a laugh and a view of the depths these liars will stoop to.

These fuckwits have abandoned any pretense of scientific rationalism, and are now just making spurious claims....the end must indeed be nigh for the cretinist movement....

80 whales buried mysteriously in Chilean desert
Marine graveyard is evidence for Noah’s Flood

OK, that's the headline....we can understand a bit of attention grabbing....


Researchers from the USA and Chile reported, in November 2011, a remarkable bone bed on the west coast of northern Chile near the port city of Caldera, about 700 kilometres (440 miles) north of the capital, Santiago.1 Excavations uncovered the remains of some 80 baleen whales of which more than 20 specimens were complete (figure 1).2 They also found other kinds of marine mammals including an extinct dolphin with tusks and a sperm whale.3

The previous year, construction workers upgrading the Pan-American Highway discovered the fossil site in a road cut just north of Caldera. Since then, teams of scientists led by palaeontologist Nick Pyenson4 from the Smithsonian Institute and Mario Suarez from the nearby Museo Paleontologico de Caldera5 have been working to excavate the fossils while the road works were temporarily suspended.

The fossils alongside the highway are confined to a sandstone ridge about 20 metres (70 feet) wide and 240 metres (800 feet) long (figure 2). Most whales were about 8 metres (25 feet) long, and perfectly preserved. Some whales were so close together that they overlapped one another (figure 3). The site in a corner of the Atacama Desert is now well above sea level and over a kilometre from the shore. Suarez said it was well known that whale bones jutted out of the ridge, which was given the name Cerro Ballena, or Whale Hill

Paleontologists were thrilled to find the treasure trove, describing it as “very unusual”. Pyenson thinks the whales all died “more or less at the same time” after they were trapped in a lagoon. Others suggest they became disoriented and beached themselves. Paleontologist Erich Fitzgerald from Museum Victoria in Australia said it’s possible the remains accumulated over thousands of years. Whale expert Hans Thewissen from Northeast Ohio Medical University thought the whales might have gathered in a lagoon and been stranded by an earthquake or storm. After the connection to the ocean closed, the lagoon dried up and the whales died.


And some scene setting is fine....


Interestingly, some of those posting comments on these news reports suggested the creatures perished in Noah’s Flood. Robert Raeburn of Western Australia said, “The whales probably swam there when the whole world was covered in water, about 4000 years ago at the time of Noah. They would then have been stranded when the waters assuaged (drained back) to expose the dry land. … This all makes sense when viewed from a ‘Bible’ perspective.” An email friend suggested the same to Mario Suarez, one of the lead paleontologists. Not surprisingly, this idea generated a deal of web comments.

But the above is just made-up garbage. They follow with this specious claptrap....

The field evidence for large-scale catastrophe is overwhelming as these research scientists have reported. What stops people making the obvious connection between these fossils and Noah’s Flood? It’s the million-year ages assigned to the fossils. On one comments thread Holly from the USA responded to the Noah’s Flood idea with, “Nothing from the Bible perspective makes sense, since 4,000 years ago that area wasn’t covered with water. However it was about 2 million years ago.”

But the 2-million-year-figure is the number paleontologists gave for the age of the fossils. Actually, they said the whales probably died between 2 million and 7 million years ago—that is early Pliocene to early Miocene (according to the International Stratigraphic Chart7). But where did they get those ages from?

First, they assign the ‘series’ and ‘stage’ by the field relationships among the strata and according to the fossils found therein.8 At this site they said that the fossil dating is complicated and probably not sufficiently precise to determine if the whales all died at the same time. Second, once the series and stage has been decided they simply read the ‘age’ in millions of years off the chart.

But how were the numbers determined for the chart? By agreement of an international committee which bases its thinking on the geological philosophy of uniformitarianism—a philosophy that only allows slow and gradual processes as explanations, or local catastrophes at the very largest.9 In other words, uniformitarian geologists are quite comfortable to hypothesise a storm, earthquake or tsunami, but not the global Flood.

On the other hand, drawing on multiple lines of evidence, biblical geologists consider the Flood a real event in history and the fossil layers to have been deposited mostly during this event. The Flood washes away the millions of years because it falsifies the assumptions on which the million-year ages are based. Most biblical geologists would accept that the standard geological column represents the general order of deposition during the Flood, with some of the uppermost parts of the column being deposited in the 4,300-year period afterwards.10

The sandstone strata containing the whale fossils are contained within a local area called the Caldera basin (figure 4).11

Similar localised basins are found at a number of places along the western coast of Chile. Although the basins are relatively small for Flood deposits, the characteristics of the sediments in these basins (figures 2 and 5) and the abundant fossils contained in them indicate that deposition took place during a period of rapid and major coastal subsidence.12 Coastal subsidence of this nature is exactly what we would expect in the second part of the Flood when the ocean basins sank, the continents rose and the floodwaters flowed into the ocean. And major coastal subsidence explains the rapid burial of the whales and other creatures because rapid burial was needed soon after death to preserve the fossils. After the ocean basins had mostly subsided and the waters had almost completely drained from the land, the whales and other animals that perished in the catastrophe were buried—toward the end of Noah’s Flood. As Robert Raeburn commented on one of the web news reports, the mystery disappears when we interpret the rocks and the fossils from a Bible perspective.


What a load of bollocks. Interestingly, they are allowing reader comments on this one, but I bet even the most respectfully worded disagreement won't see the light of day.

kennyc
20 Dec 2011, 11:38 AM
Yep, that's proof of Gawd all right! :rolling:

Schneibster
20 Dec 2011, 12:38 PM
Before they used to be "dragons."

Worldtraveller
20 Dec 2011, 03:04 PM
Wow, that's a hunka hunka burnin' stooopid. I think I just blew out a few brain cells.

BioBeing
20 Dec 2011, 03:12 PM
[I fixed a typo in the title. Hope that's OK.]

If these fossils were really from the flood, wouldn't we see whale fossils of this sort everywhere? And elephant fossils. And dinosaur fossils. All mixed up together, in the same strata?

rog
20 Dec 2011, 03:43 PM
On the other hand, drawing on multiple lines of evidence, biblical geologists consider the Flood a real event in history and the fossil layers to have been deposited mostly during this event. The Flood washes away the millions of years because it falsifies the assumptions on which the million-year ages are based. Most biblical geologists would accept that the standard geological column represents the general order of deposition during the Flood, with some of the uppermost parts of the column being deposited in the 4,300-year period afterwards.10

Do they now? I'm not a geologist, but I'd venture that's a fuck of a lot of rock to move in 40 days, it would be interesting to capture a live biblical geologist and get him to explain in exacting and laborious detail, precisely how this part happened, with pictures and time scales and everything...

phands
20 Dec 2011, 03:51 PM
On the other hand, drawing on multiple lines of evidence, biblical geologists consider the Flood a real event in history and the fossil layers to have been deposited mostly during this event. The Flood washes away the millions of years because it falsifies the assumptions on which the million-year ages are based. Most biblical geologists would accept that the standard geological column represents the general order of deposition during the Flood, with some of the uppermost parts of the column being deposited in the 4,300-year period afterwards.10

Do they now? I'm not a geologist, but I'd venture that's a fuck of a lot of rock to move in 40 days, it would be interesting to capture a live biblical geologist and get him to explain in exacting and laborious detail precisely how this part happened, with pictures and time scales and everything...

If you did, I have a horrible feeling that Hydropants would come up again :D

Because in that universe, rocks float on water, and then it would be easy to blast them as far away as Mars......

phands
20 Dec 2011, 03:53 PM
[I fixed a typo in the title. Hope that's OK.]

If these fossils were really from the flood, wouldn't we see whale fossils of this sort everywhere? And elephant fossils. And dinosaur fossils. All mixed up together, in the same strata?

Correct. Every creature, all together, just like in the ark.....oh, wait.......

Fixing typos is fine (what did i do?).

P

rog
20 Dec 2011, 03:55 PM
Personally I wonder why they even bother with the pretence of science, ok it might placate the odd chap who doesn't think about it took hard, but they have to resort to the use of magic that wasn't even in the bible in order to make every little bit of it hang together.

Barefoot Bree
20 Dec 2011, 06:48 PM
Personally I wonder why they even bother with the pretence of science, ok it might placate the odd chap who doesn't think about it took hard, but they have to resort to the use of magic that wasn't even in the bible in order to make every little bit of it hang together.
Bingo!

It seems to me that just by using science, by trying to shoehorn their pre-scientific myths into a scientific framework (or vice-versa, not quite sure which way the shoehorning is going), they're admitting defeat. They're admitting that science is supreme by trying to make it look like science supports their myths.

BioBeing
20 Dec 2011, 07:55 PM
[I fixed a typo in the title. Hope that's OK.]
Fixing typos is fine (what did i do?).

P

Chliean -->Chilean

Schneibster
21 Dec 2011, 06:45 AM
I can't imagine the thought processes of someone who is lying for jebus. It's psychotic. Well people don't think like that.

Oolon Colluphid
21 Dec 2011, 08:30 AM
Personally I wonder why they even bother with the pretence of science, ok it might placate the odd chap who doesn't think about it took hard, but they have to resort to the use of magic that wasn't even in the bible in order to make every little bit of it hang together.
Yep, got it on one: to "placate the odd chap who doesn't think about it too hard".

The reason for using science is that they know even the most devout will on occasion come aross a David Attenborough or whatever on the telly and start to wonder…

Bearing in mind that the kind of people who are in that 'Bible-is-all-true but starting-to-wonder' position won't be exactly PhD geologists or biologists, all these arseholes have to do is offer some sort of sciency-sounding reply to calm the minds of the plebs. It doesn't have to be science, or even make the slightest sense to anyone who does know a little about it. It just needs to sound like a scientific answer. (That's why we get poor deluded fools turning up to argue using these ideas, thinking they're an actual response to the EAC.)

It's panen et circenses for the scientifically illiterate. An inoculation against actual science. And a homeopathic one at that.

Oolon Colluphid
21 Dec 2011, 08:32 AM
An inoculation against actual science. And a homeopathic one at that.
Heh. I quite like that (though I do say so myself). Creationism as homeopathy. Science taken and so diluted that not one molecule of actual science remains, then administered to the ignorant and unwary.

rog
21 Dec 2011, 10:14 AM
If I ever get the inclination and a spare morning I might get me a degree in "Biblical Geology" :evil:

kennyc
21 Dec 2011, 10:19 AM
If I ever get the inclination and a spare morning I might get me a degree in "Biblical Geology" :evil:

No effort needed, you just have to declare it.

:dunno:

rog
21 Dec 2011, 10:24 AM
If I ever get the inclination and a spare morning I might get me a degree in "Biblical Geology" :evil:

No effort needed, you just have to declare it.

:dunno:

Be nice to be acredited tho.... A course where the text book is shorter than a fastfood menu appeals to me. See after I did that, I could get "Biblical Cosmology" and "Biblical Particile Physics", maybe get a teaching job in one of our new "free-schools".

kennyc
21 Dec 2011, 10:25 AM
If I ever get the inclination and a spare morning I might get me a degree in "Biblical Geology" :evil:

No effort needed, you just have to declare it.

:dunno:

Be nice to be acredited tho.... A course where the text book is shorter than a fastfood menu appeals to me. See after I did that, I could get "Biblical Cosmology" and "Biblical Particile Physics", maybe get a teaching job in one of our new "free-schools".

There ya go! And here ya go: http://www.amesbible.org/

Oolon Colluphid
21 Dec 2011, 10:29 AM
If I ever get the inclination and a spare morning I might get me a degree in "Biblical Geology" :evil:
That would be a B.S. degree, presumably.

rog
21 Dec 2011, 10:51 AM
I was thinking PHD.

Pretend Hocus Deception.

phands
21 Dec 2011, 01:06 PM
http://www.cedarville.edu/Offices/Public-Relations/CampusNews/2009/Geology-Degree-Added-to-Course-Offerings.aspx

These fuckwits really, really are beyond any humour. They're touting a 2-model view of geology.....

Cedarville, Ohio—Cedarville University’s Board of Trustees recently approved the formation of the Bachelor of Science in geology degree, set to begin in fall 2009.

Faculty will equip students for lifelong scientific leadership in career fields such as hydrogeology, environmental geology, petroleum geology and numerous other areas of expertise.

“The degree will offer a whole host of new opportunities for graduates,” shares Dr. John Whitmore, associate professor of geology. “Geologists help us find clean drinking water, petroleum, natural gas, coal and valuable minerals.”

The program will be unique in that no other Christian school, that holds to a literal six-day account of Genesis offers geology as a major for undergraduates. The course of study will be taught from both naturalistic and young-earth paradigms of earth history.

“It is extremely important to develop critical thinking skills within the minds of young scientists,” describes Whitmore. “We believe that using a two-model approach of earth history will be advantageous to our students, since others are only taught a one-model, naturalistic approach. Geologists are important when it comes to thinking about earth history, especially within a biblical context.”

Coursework will be rigorous and emphasize hands-on experience along with required field work. The geology major will include a wide range of liberal arts classes along with calculus, physics, chemistry, biology, physical geology, historical geology, mineralogy, petrology, structural geology, stratigraphy, sedimentology, geomorphology, invertebrate paleontology, and environmental geology among other upper-level areas of study. The major will prepare students for both graduate school and industry.

JamesBannon
22 Dec 2011, 09:03 PM
They have to do that, otherwise their students wouldn't get jobs.

Schneibster
23 Dec 2011, 01:04 AM
Not to mention transferring credits.

JSpades
29 Dec 2011, 12:50 PM
There's a good set of videos on this kinda stuff on YouTube:

_sD_7rxYoZY

phands
30 Dec 2011, 09:28 PM
There's a good set of videos on this kinda stuff on YouTube:

_sD_7rxYoZY

Cool! Thanks - I enjoyed that!

P

Subduction Zone
31 Dec 2011, 12:54 AM
Yup, good old Potholer54. I was about to recommend his series too until I saw that this was one of his. But may I also recommend DonExodus2? Potoler's education is in geology and DonExodus' education seems to specialize in biology. Between the two you have all of evolution fairly well covered.