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Old 13 Apr 2012, 09:56 PM   #354545 / #1
MattShizzle
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Default Cutting of Education

The idiot we have as governor in PA has cut funding for education (by a lot) every year he's been governor - says he had to, state can't afford it. Last night heard on the news he gave a big INCREASE to funding for prisons.
HELLO?!?!?!? Maybe if you spend more on education you won't need to spend so much on fucking prisons?!??!
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Old 13 Apr 2012, 10:00 PM   #354546 / #2
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Are the prisons privatized in Pa? If so, that's why your gov thinks they are more important than public education.
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Old 13 Apr 2012, 10:06 PM   #354549 / #3
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No. Some halfway house type places (where I used to work was - the state actually decided they'd rather do it themselves then contract it out, that's why it closed) but no adult prisons. Plenty of Juvie places though.
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Old 13 Apr 2012, 10:08 PM   #354550 / #4
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Are the prisons privatized in Pa? If so, that's why your gov thinks they are more important than public education.
i thought all prisons in the US were privatized. or is that just federal prisons?
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Old 13 Apr 2012, 11:06 PM   #354569 / #5
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As to which prisons are privatized, I suggest researching that question.

I think that that governor is showing what he cares about when he can much more easily find money for prisons than for education.
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Old 13 Apr 2012, 11:23 PM   #354575 / #6
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Most fed prisons aren't privatized. Maybe some of the low-security ones.
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Old 13 Apr 2012, 11:50 PM   #354598 / #7
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As education costs have risen academic results have fallen.
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Old 14 Apr 2012, 12:41 AM   #354611 / #8
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As education costs have risen academic results have fallen.
evidence?
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Old 14 Apr 2012, 02:15 AM   #354630 / #9
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Here is one example:

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Old 14 Apr 2012, 02:31 AM   #354632 / #10
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Jerome, the Cato Institute, which started out as the Charles Koch Foundation--yes, THAT Koch--is hardly known for putting out reliable, objective information. Their mission is to prove that government wastes money, and dodgy statistics are a facile method of doing that. What your chart shows is only that spending climbed while SAT scores remained flat in one state, not that it was some kind of national trend. In fact, you claimed that scores fell while spending climbed, which is even a worse spin that the Cato Institute normally puts on such superficial statistical analyses. Flat SAT scores does not mean that the money spent had no good results in other areas--e.g. creating more capable employees in non-academic careers--or that the extra money went into producing more high school graduates than might otherwise of made it to a diploma. SAT scores aren't always a reliable indicator of social benefit.
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Old 14 Apr 2012, 02:31 AM   #354633 / #11
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Using SAT scores is misleading. In states where more kids go to college average SAT scores will drop as more kids take the SAT's - as only those planning to go take them (in states where more students go average students take them rather than just higher performing - and some states that spend a lot have all students take them.) Another thing in schools that spend the least on education - most of them use the ACT rather than the SAT so the only kids taking the SATs are those planning on going to school out of state - usually the best students in the state - and of course they have a lower percentage of kids planning on going to college so fewer take any such tests. Learned this in my senior seminar in Psych class as an example of floor/ceiling effect and as an example of how people try to use statistics to mislead.
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Old 14 Apr 2012, 02:50 AM   #354638 / #12
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What then would you suggest as a reasonable measurement for educational success?
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Old 14 Apr 2012, 03:37 AM   #354641 / #13
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Originally Posted by Copernicus View Post
Jerome, the Cato Institute, which started out as the Charles Koch Foundation--yes, THAT Koch--is hardly known for putting out reliable, objective information. Their mission is to prove that government wastes money, and dodgy statistics are a facile method of doing that. What your chart shows is only that spending climbed while SAT scores remained flat in one state, not that it was some kind of national trend. In fact, you claimed that scores fell while spending climbed, which is even a worse spin that the Cato Institute normally puts on such superficial statistical analyses. Flat SAT scores does not mean that the money spent had no good results in other areas--e.g. creating more capable employees in non-academic careers--or that the extra money went into producing more high school graduates than might otherwise of made it to a diploma. SAT scores aren't always a reliable indicator of social benefit.
I'm always fascinated by people who simply can not engage with data because of its source.

What do you imagine is actually wrong with the data?
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Old 14 Apr 2012, 04:34 AM   #354652 / #14
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What then would you suggest as a reasonable measurement for educational success?
Number/percentage of students who go on to college or a comparison of standardized test results from 9th grade and 12th. Even better if they were tested at the beginning of 1st grade and the end of 12th. or better yet test in 1st and see how they are dping 10 years after graduation.
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Old 14 Apr 2012, 04:37 AM   #354653 / #15
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Jerome, the Cato Institute, which started out as the Charles Koch Foundation--yes, THAT Koch--is hardly known for putting out reliable, objective information. Their mission is to prove that government wastes money, and dodgy statistics are a facile method of doing that. What your chart shows is only that spending climbed while SAT scores remained flat in one state, not that it was some kind of national trend. In fact, you claimed that scores fell while spending climbed, which is even a worse spin that the Cato Institute normally puts on such superficial statistical analyses. Flat SAT scores does not mean that the money spent had no good results in other areas--e.g. creating more capable employees in non-academic careers--or that the extra money went into producing more high school graduates than might otherwise of made it to a diploma. SAT scores aren't always a reliable indicator of social benefit.
I'm always fascinated by people who simply can not engage with data because of its source.

What do you imagine is actually wrong with the data?
Why would you need to answer this? If a White Supremacist group posted a "study" showing whites did better than other races I would assume based on the source something was messed up. Not to mention the Cocksucker brothers are well known to be liars and the sort who can and will fudge data - and have the resources to push false data.
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Old 14 Apr 2012, 04:48 AM   #354659 / #16
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Quote:
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What then would you suggest as a reasonable measurement for educational success?
Number/percentage of students who go on to college or a comparison of standardized test results from 9th grade and 12th. Even better if they were tested at the beginning of 1st grade and the end of 12th. or better yet test in 1st and see how they are dping 10 years after graduation.
Well, we all know that access to college has been opened dramatically due to the vast amounts of monies available for loans. So that will not work.

Isn't the SAT a standardized test?
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Old 14 Apr 2012, 05:49 AM   #354672 / #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Copernicus View Post
Jerome, the Cato Institute, which started out as the Charles Koch Foundation--yes, THAT Koch--is hardly known for putting out reliable, objective information. Their mission is to prove that government wastes money, and dodgy statistics are a facile method of doing that. What your chart shows is only that spending climbed while SAT scores remained flat in one state, not that it was some kind of national trend. In fact, you claimed that scores fell while spending climbed, which is even a worse spin that the Cato Institute normally puts on such superficial statistical analyses. Flat SAT scores does not mean that the money spent had no good results in other areas--e.g. creating more capable employees in non-academic careers--or that the extra money went into producing more high school graduates than might otherwise of made it to a diploma. SAT scores aren't always a reliable indicator of social benefit.
I'm always fascinated by people who simply can not engage with data because of its source.

What do you imagine is actually wrong with the data?
Dismal, I actually answered your question in my post. And the Cato Institute is not always wrong in what they say, but they are a propaganda outfit. They are a right wing think tank. That data was from just a single state, and, at best, it only showed that higher spending did not affect SAT scores, not that they dropped. There are other ways to measure the quality of education--e.g. the numbers of diplomas and college degrees earned by students as well as the average salaries of graduates from the system. The Cato Institute, being a right wing propaganda outfit, seldom gives a balanced picture. It is easy to mislead people with facile statistical arguments of that sort.
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Old 14 Apr 2012, 05:52 AM   #354673 / #18
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Is the CBO considered left wing?
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Old 14 Apr 2012, 08:08 AM   #354682 / #19
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Quote:
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What then would you suggest as a reasonable measurement for educational success?
Number/percentage of students who go on to college or a comparison of standardized test results from 9th grade and 12th. Even better if they were tested at the beginning of 1st grade and the end of 12th. or better yet test in 1st and see how they are dping 10 years after graduation.
Well, we all know that access to college has been opened dramatically due to the vast amounts of monies available for loans. So that will not work.

Isn't the SAT a standardized test?
A problem found on this side of the pond is that as university entrant numbers have climbed the more it has been necessary to provide "top-up courses" during the first undergraduate years.
And the more employers have been finding that new graduates are unemployable.

But I don't know whether or not anybody has reliable statistics - or if it is political hype based on a small sample.
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Old 14 Apr 2012, 11:58 AM   #354688 / #20
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There are other ways to measure the quality of education--e.g. the numbers of diplomas and college degrees earned by students as well as the average salaries of graduates from the system.
A 45-47% non-graduation rate we can all agree is a massive fail of the system.

Quote:
Today, especially among low-income students who attend public community colleges as a gateway to a college or university, 27 percent actually graduate in four years, and 48 percent of those pursuing bachelor’s degrees at private schools do so, according to ACT Inc., an organization that provides college testing exams and other services. Most students take at least six years, and even then only 55 percent get their degrees.
http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Articl...ate.aspx#page1

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Even as colleges nationwide celebrate commencement season, hundreds of schools are failing to graduate a majority of their students in six years, a report says today.

Nationally, four-year colleges graduated an average of just 53% of entering students within six years, and "rates below 50%, 40% and even 30% are distressingly easy to find," says the report by the American Enterprise Institute, a conservative think tank. It's based on data reported to the Education Department by nearly 1,400 schools about full-time first-time students who entered in fall 2001.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/educati...ion-rate_N.htm
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Old 14 Apr 2012, 12:07 PM   #354689 / #21
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A problem found on this side of the pond is that as university entrant numbers have climbed the more it has been necessary to provide "top-up courses" during the first undergraduate years.
And the more employers have been finding that new graduates are unemployable.
I would argue that both of those are signs of a failed system. Have you experienced massive increases in spending on education there?

Anecdotaly, I have a number of employees that have risen to high level positions, earning greater than the national average in salary, that decided to forgo higher education, instead begin work out of high school. Their contemporaries, they tell me, are in their mid 20's with a college education, in long term debt, and still living at home as they can not find a 'career' job thus can not afford to live on their own.
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Old 14 Apr 2012, 01:44 PM   #354706 / #22
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A problem found on this side of the pond is that as university entrant numbers have climbed the more it has been necessary to provide "top-up courses" during the first undergraduate years.
And the more employers have been finding that new graduates are unemployable.
I would argue that both of those are signs of a failed system. Have you experienced massive increases in spending on education there?
Personally I think you are right and, also, that there have been massive spending increases (over and above inflation). The whole issue is so heavily politicised that it is difficult to separate fact from opinion but I am sure there are those on this site who can provide you with hard facts & figures if you wish.

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Anecdotaly, I have a number of employees that have risen to high level positions, earning greater than the national average in salary, that decided to forgo higher education, instead begin work out of high school. Their contemporaries, they tell me, are in their mid 20's with a college education, in long term debt, and still living at home as they can not find a 'career' job thus can not afford to live on their own.
The first bit was not an uncommon thing in my youth and I have heard that the same happens today: but that is hearsay. One would certainly expect it more in future.

As I said, the whole area is heavily politicised. I have very strong feelings on the matter but will nobly resist the urge to bore everybody with a rant. Factually the changes really took hold fifty years ago driven by a strong belief that privilege is wrong, that selective education was wrong and everybody should receive the same: not the same opportunity but the same education.
I try very hard to believe that the changes were well-meaning if wrong-headed. A significant number of my friends tend towards a conspiracy theory. But, at the merest practical level, if you aim to send half of a given age-group to university then inevitably a fair number of the resulting degrees will be mediocre.
And the results originally referred to will follow.
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Old 14 Apr 2012, 02:23 PM   #354711 / #23
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What then would you suggest as a reasonable measurement for educational success?
Number/percentage of students who go on to college or a comparison of standardized test results from 9th grade and 12th. Even better if they were tested at the beginning of 1st grade and the end of 12th. or better yet test in 1st and see how they are dping 10 years after graduation.
Well, we all know that access to college has been opened dramatically due to the vast amounts of monies available for loans. So that will not work.

Isn't the SAT a standardized test?
Yes, but not everyone takes it.
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Old 14 Apr 2012, 03:06 PM   #354713 / #24
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A 45-47% non-graduation rate we can all agree is a massive fail of the system.
Why?
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Old 14 Apr 2012, 04:20 PM   #354723 / #25
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There are other ways to measure the quality of education--e.g. the numbers of diplomas and college degrees earned by students as well as the average salaries of graduates from the system.
A 45-47% non-graduation rate we can all agree is a massive fail of the system.
Jerome, you aren't getting the point. You initially based your claim on a comparison of money invested in education based on SAT scores in California. Now you have jumped to another facile statistical argument without maintaining that comparison. You haven't linked the 45-47% statistic with any amount of inflation-adjusted spending increase. This is just a visceral argument. Does the same inflation-adjusted expense per pupil hold for every state?

Also, what is the real story here? What drove up the cost of education? Back in the 60s and 70s, a lot of schools were in disastrous condition, and teachers have traditionally been paid lower salaries than their highly-educated counterparts in other jobs. Nobody thinks that the public school system is doing as good a job as it used to do, but is the answer to stop spending money on it? Perhaps the problem is that we spent more, but not enough, to produce a quality education. The current trend--pushed especially hard by conservatives--is to reduce funding for education, which lowers the quality of education by driving up class sizes, reducing the number of teachers, and letting physical facilities rot.

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Today, especially among low-income students who attend public community colleges as a gateway to a college or university, 27 percent actually graduate in four years, and 48 percent of those pursuing bachelor’s degrees at private schools do so, according to ACT Inc., an organization that provides college testing exams and other services. Most students take at least six years, and even then only 55 percent get their degrees.
But more low income people are going to college, so you would expect performance statistics to change. Again, nobody is claiming that our educational system is adequate, so your complaint about poor education is not at issue. What is at issue is how you think the problem ought to be addressed. And you have not shown that the inflation-adjusted cost per pupil is the same everywhere as it has been in California. Nor have you provided an analysis of spending for education over the period in which it went up. What have increases in funding paid for?

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Even as colleges nationwide celebrate commencement season, hundreds of schools are failing to graduate a majority of their students in six years, a report says today.

Nationally, four-year colleges graduated an average of just 53% of entering students within six years, and "rates below 50%, 40% and even 30% are distressingly easy to find," says the report by the American Enterprise Institute, a conservative think tank. It's based on data reported to the Education Department by nearly 1,400 schools about full-time first-time students who entered in fall 2001.
Just because most of your sources are conservative, that doesn't make all the statistics wrong, but the argument is not over whether the educational system is excellent. People are not arguing that it is or that we don't need to reform the system to get better results. The question is what we need to do to change it. This is America, after all. We have been known to spend enormous amounts of money and get bad or counterproductive results. (For example, look at the wars we've fought in Viet Nam, Iraq, and Afghanistan--all far more expensive and wasteful than the educational system.)

Conservatives, especially libertarian conservatives, seem to think that the solution is to reduce government spending on education rather than to change how we spend the money. Liberals tend to see public spending on education as an investment that pays big dividends in the end. At best, your argument is claiming that we have not been getting the promised dividends. So what is the solution? To stop spending money on public education?
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