Friends of the Secular Café: Forums
Council of Ex-Muslims of Britain
Talk Freethought
Rational Skepticism Forum
EvC Forum: Evolution vs. Creation
Living Nonreligion Discussion Forum
The Round Table (RatPags)
Talk Rational!
Blogs
Blue Collar Atheist
Camels With Hammers
Ebonmuse: Daylight Atheism
Nontheist Nexus
The Re-Enlightenment
Rosa Rubicondior
The Skeptical Zone
Watching the Deniers
Others
Christianity Disproved
Count Me Out
Ebon Musings
Freethinker.co.uk
 
       

Go Back   Secular Café > Intellectual Debate and Discussion Forums > Philosophy & Morality

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09 Nov 2017, 02:33 AM   #679724 / #1
justme
babble rouser
 
justme's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 5,894
Default What determines the harassment in sexual harassment episodes?

I was wondering just how such things are determined as I have heard, more than once that they are more likey to happen when two people are alone.

Also what can be done to differentiate outright stupidity for intentional events.(I don't know any other way to say that)

I was also heard something about business people might be so afraid of having anything like sexual harassment in the work place that they would refrain from hiring women in certain positions or regulate the duties they perform to exclusive areas to reduce interaction with men. Could there3 be a seperate but equal guidelines be in the future for businesses fearing being sued?
justme is offline   Reply With Quote top bottom
Old 09 Nov 2017, 01:41 PM   #679760 / #2
Ozymandias
________________
 
Ozymandias's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 7,952
Default

Harassment is really just where one person makes the other feel uncomfortable in a work context. That can be sexual but needn't always be. I was once accused of "harassment" for making a student solve a physics problem on the chalk board in front of her peers.

I occasionally have to take a refresher course on harassment (i.e. how to recognise it and avoid it). I was surprised in my most recent one to find out that a student asking a fellow student out for a drink at the pub is considered harassment if done while in class. The reasoning here is that the "victim" can't avoid the questioner without leaving the class.

I am also aware that I have become much more reserved when interacting with students in recent years. Any time they want to ask me a question in my office, I make sure the door stays wide open. I never ask personal questions and I am very careful to only direct positive feedback at the actual work done and not the student him- or herself. If a student comes to me to ask advice on a personal matter I inform them that I am not qualified to give them advice on non-scientific matters and refer them to the student advice centre.

I have also switched away from using the university gym (which is actually very good and much cheaper than private gyms) because I would be uncomfortable meeting students there.

I never go to parties or social events which are likely to have people from work (either students or staff). I have even left a party when a student that I was teaching turned up unexpectedly.
Ozymandias is offline   Reply With Quote top bottom
Old 09 Nov 2017, 01:54 PM   #679764 / #3
ruby sparks
Senior Member
 
ruby sparks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Northern Ireland
Posts: 7,768
Default

It's an interesting question to ask, when is the downside (eg teachers being reluctant to comfort a child by putting their arm around them) worth paying for the upside (eliminating harm or offence)?

Or indeed the issue that justme raises, about the workplace and possible (unexpressed and probably illegal) reluctances to put people in certain situations then affecting things like job appointments.

In some cases, it seems clearer than in others.

In the adult world, to be accused of inapropriately touching someone's knee, coupled with sending them a 'come-on' text, even if both are unwelcome, doesn't seem to me to warrant even discussing a resignation, for example, and may even imo diminish more serious infringements such as rape (if memory serves, I saw a news program on tv where an item about the former preceded the latter for some reason, possibly because the former involved a higher-ranking person).

That said, I'm prepared to be told otherwise, or that context matters.

Last edited by ruby sparks; 09 Nov 2017 at 02:30 PM.
ruby sparks is offline   Reply With Quote top bottom
Old 09 Nov 2017, 03:56 PM   #679771 / #4
Jobar
Zen Hedonist
Admin; Mod: Religion, The Smoking Section
 
Jobar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Georgia
Posts: 25,995
Default

IMO it should come down to the intent of the accused harasser; and that can be a mighty hard thing to determine.

Of course someone may feel harassed even when there is no intent. I do think that anyone who feels harassed needs to say so first thing, before any sort of official report is made, and certainly before any official investigation or action is taken.

But if there's a pattern of abuse, and clumsiness, cluelessness, and simple miscommunication can be ruled out, then there's cause for official action.
Jobar is offline   Reply With Quote top bottom
Old 09 Nov 2017, 11:36 PM   #679802 / #5
Politesse
Sapere aude
 
Politesse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Chochenyo territory
Posts: 19,407
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ruby sparks View Post
It's an interesting question to ask, when is the downside (eg teachers being reluctant to comfort a child by putting their arm around them) worth paying for the upside (eliminating harm or offence)?

Or indeed the issue that justme raises, about the workplace and possible (unexpressed and probably illegal) reluctances to put people in certain situations then affecting things like job appointments.

In some cases, it seems clearer than in others.

In the adult world, to be accused of inapropriately touching someone's knee, coupled with sending them a 'come-on' text, even if both are unwelcome, doesn't seem to me to warrant even discussing a resignation, for example, and may even imo diminish more serious infringements such as rape (if memory serves, I saw a news program on tv where an item about the former preceded the latter for some reason, possibly because the former involved a higher-ranking person).

That said, I'm prepared to be told otherwise, or that context matters.
This teacher says, always. Student rights acts like Title IX and FERPA make my life inconvenient, but I don't think not having them would make false accusations less likely. As the population grows more conscious of harassment but instances of harassment do not appear to grow any less frequent, such laws protect both parties, one against abuse and the other against the accusation of abuse.
__________________
"The truth about stories is that's all we are" ~Thomas King
Politesse is online now   Reply With Quote top bottom
Old 10 Nov 2017, 01:44 AM   #679823 / #6
Ozymandias
________________
 
Ozymandias's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 7,952
Default

I have been inappropriately touched several times and sexually propositioned by students, but I confess it never even ocurred to me to report it because I am male. In fact, I don't think I even mentally registered it as harrassment.
Ozymandias is offline   Reply With Quote top bottom
Old 14 Nov 2017, 05:17 AM   #680192 / #7
Rie
Senior Member
 
Rie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 12,235
Default

Got it in ONE... and Jobar I do believe that the 'intent' of the molester is clearly contained in the act itself!
If a person says 'Stop that'... ? Where's the problem with acknowledging that it is an invasion of another's privacy?
__________________
"You understand?" said Ponder
"No. I was just hoping that if I didn't say anything you'd stop trying to explain things to me." - Terry Pratchett, The Last Hero
Rie is offline   Reply With Quote top bottom
Old 14 Nov 2017, 11:27 AM   #680209 / #8
justme
babble rouser
 
justme's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 5,894
Default

I am a complimentor as it is my philosophy spread joy. I once on a phone call asked the person answering it, "How she was doing with her wonderful self" and got a response like, "The human resources dept says such and such." It was the only one I have come across, but it upset me that anyone could have taken what I said as anything other than positive.
Am I to be complete void of human kindness in dealing with people just to keep myself from getting in trouble.

I do believe there are overly sensitive people out there who look to be offended by just about anything that isn't completely a mechanical response from anyone.
justme is offline   Reply With Quote top bottom
Old 14 Nov 2017, 11:59 AM   #680217 / #9
Ozymandias
________________
 
Ozymandias's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 7,952
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by justme View Post
Am I to be complete void of human kindness in dealing with people just to keep myself from getting in trouble.
The point isn't that you should be "void of human kindness". It is that you should know when expressing "human kindness" is appropriate. It is not appropriate to display any type of affection to people you don't know well because you don't know whether or not they will be offended by your affection. Even when you know someone well, it is a good idea to negotiate some ground rules to decide what is appropriate.

In your example, the person on the phone may well have felt insulted and violated by your description of "wonderful self". Just because you would like to be called in that way doesn't mean that they do.

I think our larger society is starting to realise that everyone is different. We are such a diverse bunch that nothing about us should be taken for granted, whether that is gender, sexuality or just simple differences in social interaction. This realisation is a good thing. For too long we have lived in a fantasy world of empathy, thinking we can place ourselves in our neighbour's shoes to understand how they feel. Now we realise that this is impossible because the outward expression of an individual has little correlation to their inner self. And so, we must throw away empathy entirely, and instead treat each other with formal dignity unclouded with emotional pseudo-connection, until we are able to have a negotiation about how we should mutually interact.
Ozymandias is offline   Reply With Quote top bottom
Old 14 Nov 2017, 12:04 PM   #680218 / #10
ruby sparks
Senior Member
 
ruby sparks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Northern Ireland
Posts: 7,768
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
And so, we must throw away empathy entirely, and instead treat each other with formal dignity unclouded with emotional pseudo-connection, until we are able to have a negotiation about how we should mutually interact.
I agreed with you (and still do) up until this.

Too radical. Possibly counterproductive (throwing the baby out with the bathwater as regards the richness of human experience) and quite possibly impossible.
ruby sparks is offline   Reply With Quote top bottom
Old 14 Nov 2017, 12:09 PM   #680219 / #11
Ozymandias
________________
 
Ozymandias's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 7,952
Default

Damn. The last part (that you quote) was the bit I was leading up to with the earlier stuff. I thought I had reasoned my way there quite nicely...

I do think it is where we are heading though. That is, the making of no assumptions when we meet people. I am sure we have all been asked which personal pronoun we would prefer when meeting someone new at a party.
Ozymandias is offline   Reply With Quote top bottom
Old 14 Nov 2017, 12:24 PM   #680220 / #12
ruby sparks
Senior Member
 
ruby sparks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Northern Ireland
Posts: 7,768
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
Damn. The last part (that you quote) was the bit I was leading up to with the earlier stuff. I thought I had reasoned my way there quite nicely...

I do think it is where we are heading though. That is, the making of no assumptions when we meet people. I am sure we have all been asked which personal pronoun we would prefer when meeting someone new at a party.
I think what I mean is....empathy (the ability to understand and share the feelings of another) does not necessarily involve assumptions. When you ask someone what they feel and they tell you, empathy can help you to get it closer to right? So maybe we can throw away (at least many) assumptions, but not necessarily empathy.

Last edited by ruby sparks; 14 Nov 2017 at 12:48 PM.
ruby sparks is offline   Reply With Quote top bottom
Old 14 Nov 2017, 12:31 PM   #680221 / #13
ruby sparks
Senior Member
 
ruby sparks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Northern Ireland
Posts: 7,768
Default

I can still see where you're coming from. Empathy is arguably just part of your system's (your) best guess about what's going on in another person (system) and you shouldn't ever blithely assume it's right. It's probably useful in evolutionary terms though, even if flawed.

Fwiw, I also tend to think that we don't or can't easily even tell what's going on in ourselves either.

Last edited by ruby sparks; 14 Nov 2017 at 12:49 PM.
ruby sparks is offline   Reply With Quote top bottom
Old 14 Nov 2017, 02:03 PM   #680231 / #14
dancer_rnb
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 5,166
Default

You also don't know how often a person has already heard a similar comment that day from people who were less well meaning.
Another situation where empathy can be applied.
__________________
There is no such thing as "politically correct." It's code for liberalism. The whole idea of "political correctness" was a brief academic flash-in-the-pan in the early 1990's, but has been a good conservative bugaboo ever since.
dancer_rnb is offline   Reply With Quote top bottom
Old 14 Nov 2017, 02:58 PM   #680233 / #15
Jobar
Zen Hedonist
Admin; Mod: Religion, The Smoking Section
 
Jobar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Georgia
Posts: 25,995
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rie View Post
Got it in ONE... and Jobar I do believe that the 'intent' of the molester is clearly contained in the act itself!
If a person says 'Stop that'... ? Where's the problem with acknowledging that it is an invasion of another's privacy?
If a person says 'Stop that', then they've clearly expressed their offense at whatever is being done to them- and if the offender doesn't stop, then they have a valid complaint of harassment.

But my point was that it's possible to offend without intending to offend. Lots of clumsy or clueless people out there, not so? But as long as they quit when told they're offending, I wouldn't want to call them a molester.
Jobar is offline   Reply With Quote top bottom
Old 14 Nov 2017, 03:24 PM   #680235 / #16
subsymbolic
screwtape
Mod: Philosophy & Morality, Smoking Section
 
subsymbolic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: under the gnomon
Posts: 13,338
Default

Might this help?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7Nii5w2FaI

British enough for you?
subsymbolic is online now   Reply With Quote top bottom
Old 14 Nov 2017, 03:47 PM   #680238 / #17
ruby sparks
Senior Member
 
ruby sparks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Northern Ireland
Posts: 7,768
Default

ruby sparks is offline   Reply With Quote top bottom
Old 14 Nov 2017, 03:50 PM   #680240 / #18
ruby sparks
Senior Member
 
ruby sparks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Northern Ireland
Posts: 7,768
Default

And on a slightly different if related topic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51-hepLP8J4
ruby sparks is offline   Reply With Quote top bottom
Old 14 Nov 2017, 03:50 PM   #680241 / #19
Ozymandias
________________
 
Ozymandias's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 7,952
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by subsymbolic View Post
Might this help?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7Nii5w2FaI

British enough for you?
Not really. There is a lot more to harassment than just sexual consent. For example, it is harassment (in particular circumstances) to ask if someone wants sex, irrespective of whether they would or would not give consent. Indeed, there are many very clear circumstances where it is not OK to have sex with someone even if they have consented to it that are not covered by your cute video.
Ozymandias is offline   Reply With Quote top bottom
Old 14 Nov 2017, 03:57 PM   #680242 / #20
ruby sparks
Senior Member
 
ruby sparks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Northern Ireland
Posts: 7,768
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jobar View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rie View Post
Got it in ONE... and Jobar I do believe that the 'intent' of the molester is clearly contained in the act itself!
If a person says 'Stop that'... ? Where's the problem with acknowledging that it is an invasion of another's privacy?
If a person says 'Stop that', then they've clearly expressed their offense at whatever is being done to them- and if the offender doesn't stop, then they have a valid complaint of harassment.

But my point was that it's possible to offend without intending to offend. Lots of clumsy or clueless people out there, not so? But as long as they quit when told they're offending, I wouldn't want to call them a molester.
I agree.

But might add....slightly along the lines of what Ozy said....that the person not saying no (for a hundred different reasons, including being afraid to for any reason)...might not be enough to say it's not harrassment. Or closer to what Ozy said, it might be harassment even to ask, in certain situations.
ruby sparks is offline   Reply With Quote top bottom
Old 14 Nov 2017, 04:24 PM   #680246 / #21
BWE
twisting truth since 1957
 
BWE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: one of the unnamed sidestreets of happiness
Posts: 9,615
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
Harassment is really just where one person makes the other feel uncomfortable in a work context. That can be sexual but needn't always be. I was once accused of "harassment" for making a student solve a physics problem on the chalk board in front of her peers.

I occasionally have to take a refresher course on harassment (i.e. how to recognise it and avoid it). I was surprised in my most recent one to find out that a student asking a fellow student out for a drink at the pub is considered harassment if done while in class. The reasoning here is that the "victim" can't avoid the questioner without leaving the class.

I am also aware that I have become much more reserved when interacting with students in recent years. Any time they want to ask me a question in my office, I make sure the door stays wide open. I never ask personal questions and I am very careful to only direct positive feedback at the actual work done and not the student him- or herself. If a student comes to me to ask advice on a personal matter I inform them that I am not qualified to give them advice on non-scientific matters and refer them to the student advice centre.

I have also switched away from using the university gym (which is actually very good and much cheaper than private gyms) because I would be uncomfortable meeting students there.

I never go to parties or social events which are likely to have people from work (either students or staff). I have even left a party when a student that I was teaching turned up unexpectedly.
I met a former student at a pot store. She was working behind the counter. That was one of those really weird episodes life gives.
BWE is online now   Reply With Quote top bottom
Old 14 Nov 2017, 04:30 PM   #680247 / #22
subsymbolic
screwtape
Mod: Philosophy & Morality, Smoking Section
 
subsymbolic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: under the gnomon
Posts: 13,338
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by subsymbolic View Post
Might this help?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7Nii5w2FaI

British enough for you?
Not really. There is a lot more to harassment than just sexual consent. For example, it is harassment (in particular circumstances) to ask if someone wants sex, irrespective of whether they would or would not give consent. Indeed, there are many very clear circumstances where it is not OK to have sex with someone even if they have consented to it that are not covered by your cute video.
It wasn't meant to be exhaustive. I'm sure I could refer you to the IFFOR resources if you wish, but I doubt you do.
subsymbolic is online now   Reply With Quote top bottom
Old 14 Nov 2017, 05:13 PM   #680252 / #23
Aupmanyav
Atheist, advaitist, Hindu
 
Aupmanyav's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 6,737
Default

https://www.oneindia.com/india/not-p...c-2574870.html

"All physical contact cannot be termed as sexual harassment and only a physical contact or advances which are in the nature of an "unwelcome sexually determined behaviour" would amount to sexual harassment," the court observed.
__________________
'Sarve khalu idam Brahma'
All things here are Brahman (physical energy).
Aupmanyav is offline   Reply With Quote top bottom
Old 14 Nov 2017, 05:28 PM   #680254 / #24
subsymbolic
screwtape
Mod: Philosophy & Morality, Smoking Section
 
subsymbolic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: under the gnomon
Posts: 13,338
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BWE View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
Harassment is really just where one person makes the other feel uncomfortable in a work context. That can be sexual but needn't always be. I was once accused of "harassment" for making a student solve a physics problem on the chalk board in front of her peers.

I occasionally have to take a refresher course on harassment (i.e. how to recognise it and avoid it). I was surprised in my most recent one to find out that a student asking a fellow student out for a drink at the pub is considered harassment if done while in class. The reasoning here is that the "victim" can't avoid the questioner without leaving the class.

I am also aware that I have become much more reserved when interacting with students in recent years. Any time they want to ask me a question in my office, I make sure the door stays wide open. I never ask personal questions and I am very careful to only direct positive feedback at the actual work done and not the student him- or herself. If a student comes to me to ask advice on a personal matter I inform them that I am not qualified to give them advice on non-scientific matters and refer them to the student advice centre.

I have also switched away from using the university gym (which is actually very good and much cheaper than private gyms) because I would be uncomfortable meeting students there.

I never go to parties or social events which are likely to have people from work (either students or staff). I have even left a party when a student that I was teaching turned up unexpectedly.
I met a former student at a pot store. She was working behind the counter. That was one of those really weird episodes life gives.
Were the pots half price?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGhJMdmj3Y0

Bwahahahaha
subsymbolic is online now   Reply With Quote top bottom
Old 14 Nov 2017, 05:49 PM   #680255 / #25
Hermit
Metierioric fail
 
Hermit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 5,887
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by subsymbolic View Post
Might this help?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7Nii5w2FaI

British enough for you?
"And on that note I am going to make myself a cup of tea."
Hermit is offline   Reply With Quote top bottom
Reply

Lower Navigation
Go Back   Secular Café > Intellectual Debate and Discussion Forums > Philosophy & Morality

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 08:03 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
 
Ocean Zero by vBSkins.com | Customised by Antechinus